Dowels or biscuits?

[Jeff Horton]

41346

I have all the parts for the side posts of the gates cut out. I just need to plane them to make them all the same thickness and assemble. I was thinking about assembling the pieces with a couple of dowels in each joint. Then I thought about biscuits but I think that the dowels will add some strength.

I also thought about whipping out a jig and doing mortise and loose tenons but I don't think there is much advantage over a couple of dowels. Just thought I would ask. Someone might have a better idear. ;)

[Don Stanley]

I would use Dowels! Biscuits would be a lot easier, but think dowels will provide a stronger joint.

-Don

[Jim Becker]

Dowels ARE a mortise and tenon joint! (just small ones) So are biscuits, for that matter. In this case, I'd opt for larger dowels...ie, floating tenon to provide not only alignment, but a real boost in joint strength.

[Steve Wargo]

I vote dowels, for the same reasons Jim posted.

[Jeff Horton]

Thats what I was thinking, dowels are perfect for this application. Strong enough and reasonable quick to make. Just a firm believer in two heads are better than one!

[Larry Rose]

Jeff, Iagree with every body, use dowels. With all due respect to Norm, the only use for biscuits is to help align boards.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I don't know what it is you are building so it's rather hard to contemplate how the loads will work out. I do like the shapes and design even without knowing what it is.

Since it's too late to advocate for real M&T joints I concur with the group so far. Dowel it.

[Jerry Strojny]

It probably doesn't need to be said again, but just incase there was any doubt. Dowels are my vote.

[Aaron Beaver]

Would anyone use the Miller Dowels on a project like that? I know you would see the heads of the dowels but it looks good sometimes depending on the project.

[Rick Doyle]

Jeff, Iagree with every body, use dowels. With all due respect to Norm, the only use for biscuits is to help align boards.
hi larry,

well, i'll add my vote for dowels as well!:) but, i'm curious about your statement re biscuits being only good for aligning boards. i have seen biscuits recommended in a lot of woodworking articles and in forum postings as a good joinery method - an easy alternative, in some cases, to dowels. in fact, quite often i've seen biscuits referred to as 'crazy strong'!

i'd be very curious to know what everyone's opinion is on the use of biscuits - i have a dewalt biscuit joiner and would sure like some feedback on use and acceptable applications.

[Curt Harms]

hi larry,

well, i'll add my vote for dowels as well!:) but, i'm curious about your statement re biscuits being only good for aligning boards. i have seen biscuits recommended in a lot of woodworking articles and in forum postings as a good joinery method - an easy alternative, in some cases, to dowels. in fact, quite often i've seen biscuits referred to as 'crazy strong'!

i'd be very curious to know what everyone's opinion is on the use of biscuits - i have a dewalt biscuit joiner and would sure like some feedback on use and acceptable applications.

I'm not sure about "crazy strong" but I'm also skeptical of the "they add NO strength" argument. I recall an article in a magazine years ago where a post secondary school did controlled testing on M&T vs Biscuits vs Butt joints etc. in a door type joint, tested to destruction on a testing machine. The double biscuit joint didn't fare badly at all. A problem as I recall was the failure mode, it wasn't gradual but rather abrupt.

The biggest problem I see with biscuits in this application is biscuits need pieces with dimensions larger than the biscuit. I doubt the 2X2 joints would hide a biscuit, so are an appropriate place for dowels. It seems like a case of proper tool (or joint) for the job. There are places where biscuits are appropriate, and places where they aren't

Curt

[Jeff Horton]

Well I think maybe dowels are in order? ;)


I don't know what it is you are building so it's rather hard to contemplate how the loads will work out. I do like the shapes and design even without knowing what it is.
I guess I assumed everyone could read my mind. :)

It is a Gate and arbor (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=37902) that I posted in the design forum. If your like me you don't read that group that often.

Should be very little load or stress (if any) on these grills. They are basically ornamental. They will be mounted inside posts that will be 4x4 or 4x6, not sure which yet. There is a large beam across the top that ties the posts together and then a pair of gates that will hang off the posts.

[Rick Doyle]

i am just finishing a chimney cupboard/display case where i used biscuit joinery for the cabinet door frame. the door will hold 3 x 3mm glass panels in rabbets cut in the back of the door. after installing the glass yesterday and moving the door around a bit, i'm quite positive that the biscuits will be more than strong enough. it really seems solid. here's a pic of the door before i had the glass panels installed:

41380

[Jerry Olexa]

Biscuits are easier to apply but I suspect Dowels would be slightly stronger, I built 2 garden benches a few years ago of cedar and I doweled each on the slats top and bottom. Took time but its held up well.

[Harley Lewis]

I am not sure I should enter this conversation regarding biscuits, I am not nearly as experienced as some. I have used biscuits for years, and have never, ever, had a failure. The study cited above was not as "scientific" as some would like but it showed difinitively that the biscuit joint was very strong, nearly equal to MT joints. The abrupt break by the way was not at the biscuit joint but in the wood itself. If you google a question on strength of a biscuit joint you will find that study -- it is worth reading.

Harley

[Brian Evans]

i am just finishing a chimney cupboard/display case where i used biscuit joinery for the cabinet door frame. the door will hold 3 x 3mm glass panels in rabbets cut in the back of the door. after installing the glass yesterday and moving the door around a bit, i'm quite positive that the biscuits will be more than strong enough. it really seems solid. here's a pic of the door before i had the glass panels installed:


Rick, I'm surprised you didn't opt to use your Dowelmax.
Wouldn't it have been the perfect application?

Brian (bigsteel15)

[Frank Fusco]

Why did dowels go out of fashion anyway? They are perfect for countless applications and have been in use successfully since the beginning of time.

[Jeff Horton]

Would anyone use the Miller Dowels on a project like that? I know you would see the heads of the dowels but it looks good sometimes depending on the project.

I may step on someones toes but I have never seen any advantage to Miller Dowels over a standard dowel. I can buy standard dowel stock and standard drill bits at most any hardware or Borg around. Everything about these special and to what advantage? There may be one but I don't see it.

[Jeff Horton]

Why did dowels go out of fashion anyway? They are perfect for countless applications and have been in use successfully since the beginning of time.

Could it be big money advertising and the desire to spend money on the latest and greatest power tools? Shows like NYW probably helped too. Nothing against Norm, I watch him sometimes. Just seems like woodworking has become about spending money on new power tools and methods and less about learning skills, time proven methods and tools. Instead we have to buy a new tool to do a simple job.

Of course I could be wrong. :rolleyes:

[Rick Doyle]

Rick, I'm surprised you didn't opt to use your Dowelmax.
Wouldn't it have been the perfect application?

Brian (bigsteel15)
hi brian,

i could have - and it would have worked great i'm sure. i just hadn't used my biscuit joiner for a while and thought it would do the job just fine.

[Frank Chaffee]

Jeff,
Given that these open panels are fixed sidelights and not operable gate members, I think that biscuits would suffice.

An advantage that biscuits exhibit over both fixed and loose tenons is that they will fail in shear at the end grain to long grain plane of a joint, whereas tenons are so strong that under a force perpendicular to the plane of the panel, the tenon will break out the two faces of the frame, making repair more difficult.

For the swinging gate members, tenons may be preferable.

BTW Jeff, I really like the architectural traditions you are drawing on while enhancing your house and grounds.

Frank

[Frank Fusco]

I may step on someones toes but I have never seen any advantage to Miller Dowels over a standard dowel. I can buy standard dowel stock and standard drill bits at most any hardware or Borg around. Everything about these special and to what advantage? There may be one but I don't see it.



Amen. Well said.

[David Eisenhauer]

Frank asked when dowels went out of favor - I guess the biscuit joiner took away some of the dowels popularity due to the fact that a biscuit does give you some adjustment in one plane to get your parts lined up. Dowels can be finicky to get things lined up to avoid a mismatch, especially when a drill bit chases the grain of the wood instead of staying put. I also remember the article on biscuit strength and the strength is there on biscuits. Doweling is like everyting else - practice, decent jigging techniques and good drill bits go a long ways. I'll admit, I'd rather biscuit than dowel nowadays, but if I do use dowells, it is usually in some outdoor item like a gate or something that I'm not worried about a 1/32" - 1/16" missalignment on. Interior furniture use usually gets a floating tenon in my shop. Also, in my shop, face frames went many years ago from a worn out Ritter doweling machine to biscuits to nowadays more and more pocket screwing. They all work, depends on waht you like.

[Aaron Beaver]

I may step on someones toes but I have never seen any advantage to Miller Dowels over a standard dowel. I can buy standard dowel stock and standard drill bits at most any hardware or Borg around. Everything about these special and to what advantage? There may be one but I don't see it.

No stepping on toes here, people have different views and opinions of machines and products.
I think these were originally designed to take over screws. Screws and nails have a higher specific gravity (density) than the surrounding wood. When wood moves due to stress, changes in relative humidity, or vibration, the screw will compress the wood around it, causing the hole to enlarge. This is one reason why in furniture made with screws, you must tighten the screws to reseat them after a period of adjustment in your home.

Now how this compares to dowels I think they are easier to align, just my opinion though. Clamp the pieces together drill one one that goes into both pieces with regular dowels you drill two holes and you have to make them line up in both vertical and horizontal directions, which some might not find bad, but if you don't mind seeing the head of the dowel they seem to be easier to install.