Table saw motor problems...

[Martin Shupe]

I have a Jet 10XL with a 5 hp Taiwanese motor. I have owned the saw for almost 3 years, and up until now it has not given me any problems.

Last week when I turned the saw on, it immediately tripped the breaker. I know it is the saw, because I plugged another tool into the same circuit and it worked fine.

I talked to Jet yesterday, and the guy on the phone suggested taking off the fan and blowing out the inside of the motor, which I just did.

He also said something about a burned out "capacitor" (if my memory serves me correct) being a possibility, but I am not sure how to check for that. Something about the presence of grease or wax, but I am not sure where to look.

He also mentioned that there would be a spring mechanism behind the fan, which there is. I am not sure how it should look. I think the rotational force flings the weights outward, as at rest they are held in towards the center, against the fan axle. He said to make sure there was no wood chip blocking them which there isn't.

I can't talk to Jet again until Monday...can anyone else help me troubleshoot this thing? I don't want to take the motor off, but if I have to, that is my next step. I cannot believe the motor needs rewinding...I have hardly used it! If it does, I will have serious doubts about purchasing anything from Jet ever again.

Thanks for any suggestions or thoughts...

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

Martin, it very well could be the Start Capacitor is shot. There is no way to test the capacitor with a Multi-Meter, but a Motor Repair Shop could do that for you. Capacitors are inexpensive and easy to replace. The capacitor absorbs an electrical charge and then discharges a "Boost' voltage on start up to get the motor running. These larger horsepower motors need a zap to get them rolling. The Capacitor is located, on most applications, under a dome like cover on the exterior of the motor housing. See the attached picture.............the metal cover, or "hump" on top of the motor, under that cover is the capacitor. It has push on spade type connectors and most have 2 wires. It will have the rating, in Micro Farads printed somewhere on the can. (You will see a number followed by "uF", that is the farad rating, you will need to replace the Cap. with the same Farad rated Cap.) These are pretty generic and available wherever motors are sold. I would doubt very much that the windings are shot, unless the motor was defective in some way. Check your wiring into the motor terminal plate, something may have come loose and is going to ground. Good Luck, let us know what you find. (Be careful when unhooking the old capacitor........it may still have a charge, and if you touch both terminals, YOU will get a charge!) It hurts.............DAMHIKT! :D

[Martin Shupe]

Kevin,

There are two humps on my motor, is it possible there are two capacitors? I think the Jet guy said they might be the problem also.

Don't worry, I'll be careful. Years ago I was indirectly struck by lightening, and I have a healthy fear/respect for electricity.

Looks like I'll just take the motor off the saw and haul it to the Jet recommended repair place in Ft. Worth on Monday. I was just trying to do everything I could before coming to that conclusion.

Now I have to figure out how to remove the motor without dropping it.

At least I can use the opportunity to replace the drive belts with the links belts that have been collecting dust in my shop for a couple years.

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

Martin, it is possible that your table saw has a Capacitor Start and Capacitor Run Motor on it. Being a 5 HP motor, that could be the case. Some larger motors will have 2 Caps. Probably at this point, the best thing to do is take the motor to a Motor Service Shop and let them properly diagnose the problem. It is probably nothing major, and if it is indeed the Capacitor(s), the fix will be relatively inexpensive. If the Jet Recommended repair facility is close to you, take it there. If you have a motor service shop that is closer, use their service. If it is out of warranty, I would use the shop that is the most convienient. Good luck, and let us know what the problem is, I am curious to know. ;)

[Jim DeLaney]

=Now I have to figure out how to remove the motor without dropping it.

At least I can use the opportunity to replace the drive belts with the links belts that have been collecting dust in my shop for a couple years.I wouldn't try to remove the motor unless it's absolutely necessary. It's so heavy and bulky, and the space is so tricky to maneuver in that it's pretty much a two-person job to remove and replace. If you can get to the capacitors, then carefull remove the covers and look for leaking oil or burned wires/terminals. You can probably remove the capacitors without removing the motor. Gets the caps tested, and replace if needed. If the caps are good, then you'll have to remove the motor.

As for the link belts - don't do it. It will make little or no improvement on the 3-belt system, and may, in fact, degrade performance a bit. If the old belts are okay, then leave them. Otherwise, buy a (so-called) matched set of new belts from your motor repair shop.

Of course, that's just my opinion... I could be wrong.

Jim D.

[Duane M Swensen]

Martin I hope your motor is just a minor repair but from my experience with Jet's electric motors I doubt it. We have a 4 year old 12" cabinet saw at work and it has gone through 4 motors and one set of arbor bearings.The saw is not abused or used that hard and after the 3rd motor the company bought a new Jet motor but had the old one rebuilt at the same company that rebuilds the motors for our trolleys. They said they had never seen such a cheap motor. Needless to say the new Jet motor didn't last all that long and the rebuilt was installed and has been working fine for 8 months. Time will tell.
The motor on our 18" Jet bandsaw didn't make it a year either so if your motor requires more than a simple repair I would look at getting it rebuilt by a reputable company or buy a new motor from other than Jet. Good Luck and let us now how things turn out.

[Martin Shupe]

Martin I hope your motor is just a minor repair but from my experience with Jet's electric motors I doubt it. We have a 4 year old 12" cabinet saw at work and it has gone through 4 motors and one set of arbor bearings.The saw is not abused or used that hard and after the 3rd motor the company bought a new Jet motor but had the old one rebuilt at the same company that rebuilds the motors for our trolleys. They said they had never seen such a cheap motor. Needless to say the new Jet motor didn't last all that long and the rebuilt was installed and has been working fine for 8 months. Time will tell.
The motor on our 18" Jet bandsaw didn't make it a year either so if your motor requires more than a simple repair I would look at getting it rebuilt by a reputable company or buy a new motor from other than Jet. Good Luck and let us now how things turn out.

Thanks for the advice...

I will work on it tomorrow, trying to look at the capacitors first without removing it, if possible. If it is something major, I may just replace the entire motor.

I thought if I bought the 5 HP model, I would have a motor that would last at least 20 years, so I am more than a little disappointed.

I should be able to get it to the shop for a look see on Monday, and I will report back what they find as soon as I can.

Thanks for all the good information from everyone.

[Bill Turpin]

Start capacitors are black and have a salt solution inside. Look between the terminals for a small brown plug(probably resin/rosin). If plug is punctured or liquid has leaked out it is BAD, replace it.Run caps are grey metal, oval shaped cans filled with oil. If oil has leaked, replace. Check run cap for any signs of swelling. Most run caps have two flat sides and rounded ends. Caps that are overheated make steam or boil oil. Caps are usually overheated by centrifugal switches that stay engaged for too long. Motors have two windings: start and run. The start windings are long(many turns) and small wire size that can't take heat of sustained operation. Run windings are shorter and larger wire size. The length of start windings give the push to overcome the stopped rotor. At about 0.75 seconds after start the centrifugal switch which is in series takes out the start winding and the capacitors. The switch contacts can be welded together or two dirty/burned to make contact. Clean up them with a fine file. Modern motors are smaller than motors from the 1950's because of the smaller wire size of start windings.

[John Weber]

Martin,

I recently replaced both caps in my PM 66 3 hp Leeson motor of about 20 years. Just lable everything and take the old caps to the motor shop. They can then give you the right replacements. I think my motor guy was high at $40, I think the should run closer to $20 for the pair.

Good Luck - John

[Martin Shupe]

Well, the capacitors look good, at least to this untrained eye.

So I took the entire motor off. I can tell already that putting it back on will be the trick.

I'll take it to the motor shop on Monday.

Thanks for all the comments, I'll keep you advised.

[Jim Martin]

Don't rebuild the old motor, shop around and buy a new replacement. The cost is very close on small motors, in fact I have seen some rebuilds cost more than new. Get the frame number, HP, phase and RPM's from your old motor and shop around and I bet you will find some deals out there. At work we used to buy Baldor replacement motors and while they were good motors we have for the past 2 years started using Weg motors. They tend to be heavier on the down side, but on the plus side they use the same bearings on the front and rear of the shaft and that should lead to longer motor life and they are about 30% cheaper than Baldor.

[bob williams]

[If it is only three years old, jet carries a 2 year warranty. Sometimes you can get that stretched, either through your distributor or through jet themselves. Sweet talking reps can sometimes prove fruitfull.
Jet sells American made motors for replacement also.

[Don Farr]

Martin, I am in the motor business if you would like call me Monday morning and I will try to help before you spent a bunch of money. 18004424973. Ask for Don.

I would like to add that Kevin's advise is very accurate.

[Martin Shupe]

So two weeks ago, I take the motor to the Jet recommended motor shop.

The guy there is very knowledgeable, telling me that in his opinion, the motor casing is too small for a 5 hp motor to dissipate heat correctly, and that another problem with that particular motor is the centrifugal switch is too cheaply made to last. Once that switch fails, the motor burns up. He also shows me a Baldor motor that is 5 hp, and it is twice as big as mine, which supports his statement about my motor case being two small.

He does some troubleshooting, and determines that the motor windings are burned up. He does not recommend a rewind, saying it would be a waste of money.

I call Jet and talk to Rick. He says that since it is out of warranty (two year warranty, and I bought the saw 3 years ago) he will plead my case to his boss, but don't expect much. I leave town for 10 days, and each day when I check in with my wife, I ask her if Rick has called or emailed. No, she always says, he hasn't. When I get back, I start calling Rick again, who is apparently so overworked he can't return my calls. This morning I finally get hold of Rick, who says his boss said no, Jet can't help me. Rick then refers me to Gerald Motley, "who perhaps can work with me". I call Gerald, play phone tag, then finally get him on the phone. He tells me he can sell me a new motor for a "special price".

If I want 5 hp, it retails for $602.45, but I can have it for $451.

If I want 3 hp, it retails for $417.57, but I can have it for $312.

Oh boy, I really feel "special" now...I can pay a bunch more money for another piece of junk Taiwanese motor, and end up with a total investment in my saw equivalent to what I would have paid for a Powermatic in the first place. However, I'll still have a piece of junk Taiwanese motor in my saw.

I ask Gerald if he can give me a list of American replacement motors for this particular saw. He says no. Thanks for working with me, Gerald (dripping sarcasm intended).

OK, flashback to my visit to the motor shop. When I was there, the guy gave me a choice of two American motors that he says would fit my saw.

1. Century, now A.O.Smith (or vice versa) model B382, 3 hp, 12 amps, for $252.17

or

2. Baldor, model CL 3515, 2 hp, drawing 11.5 amps for $302.02


Bottom line, I trust the local guy at the motor shop more than I trust Jet at this point.

I originally bought a 5 hp motor, thinking it would last longer. I usually work in 4/4, except I do some 8/4 table legs. Once in a blue moon, I work with 12/4, but not often.

If you were me, which of the above motors would you buy?

I know the Baldor name better, but is that motor strong enough for my needs?

I am also willing to entertain other suggestions to get my saw up and running again.

Thanks again for all of your help.

[Brad Schafer]

no suggestions, just a little empathy. what a disaster. :mad:

b

[Don Farr]

Martin I'm sorry to hear you are still having problems. It sounds like you had a 5 HP motor built on a 3 HP frame. I see it all the time in my industry. They do that so you have to buy the replacement from the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) I would like to help but would need some info off the old motor. You need to find the largest HP motor possible in the same frame as the old motor. I would still not mind trying to help you over the phone but I can't do it tomorrow. I am teaching a class on VFD's and will be tied up all day.
If you would like to give me a ring Friday morning please have motor info in front of you. Like I said in our last PM I am not trying to sell you a motor, just help. All my customers are commercial or industrial.

[John Christiansen]

Both of the motor repair shops that I use for work handle Century motors, so I have dozens of century motors on campus. on all types of equipment, from condensate return pumps, to boiler feed pumps, to air handling units, to pool circulating pumps. They are fine motors, and I believe will serve you well.

Sure some of the Centurys have been replaced too, but bear in mind that most of these motors are operating in less than ideal conditions. Many of them run 24/7, others are located in close areas of high humidity, or very dirty environments.

Money is not a huge determining factor in what I buy for work. If equipment fails, it's got to be fixed! So I could shop around and pay more, but my experience with Century has been good, so why run all around trying to find something else?

Another point; Do you really want to drop down to two horsepower after using five? Three horsepower makes a good strong saw though.




So two weeks ago, I take the motor to the Jet recommended motor shop.

The guy there is very knowledgeable, telling me that in his opinion, the motor casing is too small for a 5 hp motor to dissipate heat correctly, and that another problem with that particular motor is the centrifugal switch is too cheaply made to last. Once that switch fails, the motor burns up. He also shows me a Baldor motor that is 5 hp, and it is twice as big as mine, which supports his statement about my motor case being two small.

He does some troubleshooting, and determines that the motor windings are burned up. He does not recommend a rewind, saying it would be a waste of money.

I call Jet and talk to Rick. He says that since it is out of warranty (two year warranty, and I bought the saw 3 years ago) he will plead my case to his boss, but don't expect much. I leave town for 10 days, and each day when I check in with my wife, I ask her if Rick has called or emailed. No, she always says, he hasn't. When I get back, I start calling Rick again, who is apparently so overworked he can't return my calls. This morning I finally get hold of Rick, who says his boss said no, Jet can't help me. Rick then refers me to Gerald Motley, "who perhaps can work with me". I call Gerald, play phone tag, then finally get him on the phone. He tells me he can sell me a new motor for a "special price".

If I want 5 hp, it retails for $602.45, but I can have it for $451.

If I want 3 hp, it retails for $417.57, but I can have it for $312.

Oh boy, I really feel "special" now...I can pay a bunch more money for another piece of junk Taiwanese motor, and end up with a total investment in my saw equivalent to what I would have paid for a Powermatic in the first place. However, I'll still have a piece of junk Taiwanese motor in my saw.

I ask Gerald if he can give me a list of American replacement motors for this particular saw. He says no. Thanks for working with me, Gerald (dripping sarcasm intended).

OK, flashback to my visit to the motor shop. When I was there, the guy gave me a choice of two American motors that he says would fit my saw.

1. Century, now A.O.Smith (or vice versa) model B382, 3 hp, 12 amps, for $252.17

or

2. Baldor, model CL 3515, 2 hp, drawing 11.5 amps for $302.02


Bottom line, I trust the local guy at the motor shop more than I trust Jet at this point.

I originally bought a 5 hp motor, thinking it would last longer. I usually work in 4/4, except I do some 8/4 table legs. Once in a blue moon, I work with 12/4, but not often.

If you were me, which of the above motors would you buy?

I know the Baldor name better, but is that motor strong enough for my needs?

I am also willing to entertain other suggestions to get my saw up and running again.

Thanks again for all of your help.

[Jim DeLaney]

to my visit to the motor shop. When I was there, the guy gave me a choice of two American motors that he says would fit my saw.

1. Century, now A.O.Smith (or vice versa) model B382, 3 hp, 12 amps, for $252.17
or
2. Baldor, model CL 3515, 2 hp, drawing 11.5 amps for $302.02

Bottom line, I trust the local guy ...
If you were me, which of the above motors would you buy?

Since you trust him, I'd ask the motor shop guy about the Century motor, and what his opinion is regarding it's quality. If he says it's good, buy it. It's always nice to deal with local companies, and usually, if you have a problem the local guy will try to make it right. Doesn't always happen with some of the bigger companies, as you've apparently already found out with Jet.

[Wes Bischel]

Martin,

A real bummer. I have been very pleased with the one Baldor I have (DC). It is the smoothest running unit I have ever had. It will run up and down the speed range without moving around on the table (not bolted down). I have heard some good things about WEG motors as well - though I have never used one.
Here are two links to motor suppliers that were recommended to me. I haven't purchased from them, but they should be good for pricing reference if nothing else.

Good luck
Wes

http://www.dealerselectric.com/

http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/index.html

[Duane M Swensen]

Martin: sorry to hear about your problems with Jet. I think either the Century or the Baldor motor will do a fine job for you.Going down to a 3hp motor will probably not be noticable based on the cutting you do and since it will not be used on a day in and day out bases it should last you for many many years. Good Luck

[Bruce Page]

Martin, sorry to read about your troubles with the Jet. In regards to the replacement motor, I would not have any hesitations buying a Century. At the lab where I work, the Century motor is pretty commonplace. I have a 14” X 40” engine lathe with a 5hp, 3ph motor that runs great - and that is after spending it’s first 20 years in a job shop.
The Baldor is also an excellent motor, but there’s no way that I would want to go to a 2hp motor on my Unisaw.


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