LV vs LN jointer

[Jim Rolf]

I'm considering buying a jointer plane. Having scrolled through old threads, it seems that both are well thought of by their owners. Does anyone have experience with both and/or an opinion about which one is superior?

Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts.

jim

[Matthew Dworman]

I own a LN #8. It is MASSIVE. Today I was able to edge joint 2 boards 1 1/4" Each at the same time - 2 1/2" Total. I like the concept of the fence on the LV - this would be a nice addition on the #8

[Brian Hale]

I own the LV BUJ and have no complaints. The fence is a nice addition and the bevel up design makes it quick and easy to change bevels for different woods, altough i'd suggest getting a second blade for that purpose. Blade adjustment is a snap and the 2 set screws to keep the blade from shifting is a nice touch. All in all a very nice tool.

Brian :)

[Mike Wenzloff]

Well, if you are comparing the LV bevel up jointer to the LN #8, the bevel up configuratoin is a difference. In use as a jointer for truing edges I doubt there is any difference. If at all, it would be in edge jointing figured stock and being able to just swap out a low angle blade for a higher angle one would be a tad easier than maintaining back bevels for the same purpose.

Just to clarify, I don't own either, but I have used them both. My #8 is an old Ohio fitted with the thick LN #8 blade [not the LN Stanley replacement]. But for the scale of work I do, I typically use a #6 more.

If on the other hand, you are considering the low angle versions from each company, my nod would go to the LV for the easier adjustment.

Both heavy, great planes.

Take care, Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

Choosing between a LV BUJ and LN #7 or #8 is not apples for apples since the LV is a bevel up configuration and the LNs are bevel down. I have compared a LV BUJ and a modified Stanley #7, and much preferred the LV, but this is not suffliciently generalisable to the LN set, since the LN is in a different class to the Stanley.

I can make these points:

The LV BUJ is the samelength as a #7 but has the nose of a #8, therefore planes more like a #8 than a #7 (but with the mass of a #7).

The LV BUJ has an adjustable mouth. The mouth on the LNs #7 and #8 is adjustable via its Bed Rock frog, but this is a more complex affair than the LV. The LN BUJ does not have an adjustable mouth.

My personal preference is for a BU plane owing to the greater simplicity of swapping blades (and yes, I do find a place for different cutting angles), and the LV version is better <I>featured</I> than the LN version (but I have not used the LN and cannot comment on whether it works the same, better or worse).

Here is my review of the LV BUJ for interest: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/LVBevelUpJointer/index.asp

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ian Smith]

I own a LN #8. It is MASSIVE. Today I was able to edge joint 2 boards 1 1/4" Each at the same time - 2 1/2" Total.
I have a Lie-Nielsen No. 8 and I chose it for the reason that Matthew outlined above. The 2-5/8" blade on the Lie-Nielsen is just a bit wider than the 2-1/4" blade on the Veritas.

The Lie-Nielsen No. 8 is a very nice plane.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

If you buy the LN you will never wish you had bought the LV.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

If you buy the LN you will never wish you had bought the LV.

That is so true, but alas the reverse is not.

[Alan DuBoff]

That is so true, but alas the reverse is not.Deirdre, I'm not sure why you say that. I find that LV makes excellent tools, and their planes are top notch. In some ways, they have more modern adjusting mechanisms, thicker blades (yes, thicker than the LN equivilants), and in some cases heftier bodies.

Most everything that LN produces is top notch as well, and a person couldn't go wrong for buying LN, IMO, and if $$$s are not an object they certainly are a safe bet.

bang for buck, LV is very hard to beat all around though. In most areas, LV seems to only produce tools which they can add value on, and one can split hairs over this comment but it's only my personal observation. Router plane is a case in point, there just was not any quality products available new. Bevel Up planes, another case in point.

I like both companies, but you make it sound as if one will feel cheated by purchasing the LV, and I don't think that's the case. I haven't felt that way though. I really think Rob Lee is as good at what he does, as TLN is at what he does.

Whatever the OP of this thread decides to get, let's hope that they can put a proper edge on it, because I feel half the battle is having quality, sharp tools at one's fingertips. ;)

Spend some time in learning how to get a proper edge on the blade if you don't know how. Wtihout doing so will only make the tool more dangerous, more difficult to use, and the results will be disappointing.

With that said, I own a old Stanley No 8 and it works well, I don't plan to replace it. :D

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I like both companies, but you make it sound as if one will feel cheated by purchasing the LV, and I don't think that's the case. I haven't felt that way though. I really think Rob Lee is as good at what he does, as TLN is at what he does.

Well, I'd rather phrase it that I regretted having bought the LV version of a tool when I could have bought the LN. I meant it from personal experience only. I like LV, really I do, and I just spent twice as much on an order with them than I spent on LN.

To me, they're in different market spaces for the most part. Where they overlap, I prefer LN.

[Seth Poorman]

Ive been considering buying a LN #8 for some time now and was pretty much sold on it, but I have a PM 60 long bed joiner so I wonder if I really need a hand plane joiner style???
And what heck are you guys saying LV plane....never heard of it :confused: DUH:confused:

[Derek Cohen]

May I make what I believe is a constructive criticism of the responses here?

OK? Well no one has disagreed, so I will! :)

Blanket statements such as "X is better than Y" or "You will regret it if you buy X or Y" are NOT HELPFUL. Remarks such as these are inflammatory and cause such emotional reactions. Whether we like it or not, there are intense (!) rivalries between the "supporters" of brands. DAMHIK!!!!

I have always made a point of describing things as objectively as possible, in a way to which others can relate. Such as pointing out my observations, trying to list the features, or presenting pictures.

When it comes to the higher end brands, such as LN and LV, the differences in performance may actually be minimal, and down to the experience of the user (the point that TLN made to me the other day), the sharpness of a blade, the wood in question, or the tail wind. Mostly it will come down to (in no particular order, although it would be interesting to have a survey on this!), price, aesthetics, ergonomics, ease of adjustability, brand allegence, or what your hero uses.

We do not all have the same size hand, or stand at the same height at the workbench, or share the same idea of beauty. Try things out if you can.

Rant mode out.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

<I>Ive been considering buying a LN #8 for some time now and was pretty much sold on it, but I have a PM 60 long bed joiner so I wonder if I really need a hand plane joiner style???</I>

Hi Seth

I think that there is a good argument here that if you are just cleaning up after a long bed joiner, that is, you are not using a plane to flatten and joint, then you probably would be served best by a jack plane. The mid length is satisfactory since you are already working with flat boards, and you do not need a shorter plane as a dedicated smoother for the same reason.

I personally like the BU jacks for there wide range of uses - both the LV and LN make terrific smoothers as you can close down their mouths, and both make changing blades a quicker and less complex task that a BD plane (e.g. no chip breaker to set). The LV is slightly wider (2 1/4" vs 2") and longer (more like a #5 1/2 vs a #5) than the LN version.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

May I make what I believe is a constructive criticism of the responses here?

OK? Well no one has disagreed, so I will! :)

Thank you.

Seriously, in re-reading my post, what I said initially wasn't genuinely what I meant. I've just been feeling the cash crunch during the middle (I hope) of the Acute Plane Acquisition Phase, and have been regretting that I made a few of Choice A over Choice B. It's not just LV I've regretted, either. For example, I bought a modern Stanley LA block plane and just yesterday purchased the LN that will replace it. And, honestly, the Stanley's not a bad tool (once I spent a couple of hours on it), it's just not as good as the LN.

So, it was My Personal Regrets. I respect Lee Valley immensely as a company and will continue to buy tools (that I don't regret :) ) from them. I just wish I'd gotten, for example, the Boggs spokeshave from LN rather than the low-angle spokeshave from LV.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Ive been considering buying a LN #8 for some time now and was pretty much sold on it, but I have a PM 60 long bed joiner so I wonder if I really need a hand plane joiner style???
And what heck are you guys saying LV plane....never heard of it :confused: DUH:confused:

LV = Lee Valley = Veritas.

Yes, you do need a hand plane. Here's why: a machine jointer doesn't leave anywhere near as smooth a surface as a hand plane. Hand planes are great for getting a finish-ready surface after a jointer (and before glue-up).

[Marc Waldbillig]

I'm considering buying a jointer plane. Having scrolled through old threads, it seems that both are well thought of by their owners. Does anyone have experience with both and/or an opinion about which one is superior?

Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts.

jim

Well Jim,

If I were you, I would consider the work I want to do with this jointer. I think at least you need two jointers, better three. So nothing happened when you choose the wrong one the first time. :)

First is it for coarse work? Then the LN BUJ fits the purpose. No fine mouth opening is needed. Sharpening and installing the blade are fast made. Do you use it for medium work like flattening long boards or jointing? Then I suggest the #8 it is best choice because of its heft and wide blade. If it is for fine work like smoothing or planing a slight hollow in a length, I would go for the LN #7 or the LV BUJ, because of their adjustable mouths.

Personally I would not buy the fence LV offers. It is to easy and so pleasurable to make a square edge with a lightly cambered blade. I would only buy a fence for planing a bevel on an edge. So I could put several angles on the fence.

The best tool is a purpose-made one, it's fastest and most enjoyable because most you do is planing and not setting up each time for purpose. But that's my personal thing.

Marc

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Personally I would not buy the fence LV offers. It is to easy and so pleasurable to make a square edge with a lightly cambered blade.

I did, mostly because I doubted my abilities to produce a square edge. I later discovered it's not really THAT hard.

[Alice Frampton]

I just wish I'd gotten, for example, the Boggs spokeshave from LN rather than the low-angle spokeshave from LV.
Sorry, wandering off-topic here, but spokeshaves are rarely an either/or situation. The Boggs and the low angle are different animals and will excel at different tasks. Anything less than haf a dozen spokeshaves and you're really not a serious user... ;)

LV vs LN is a topic on a hiding to nothing. All the folks who like LN will say "LN" and all the folks that like LV will say "LV", then there'll be disagreement and offence taken by someone or other before the original poster ends up doing what they'd thought to do all along anyway. Jim, they all work. If they don't, both companies can be totally depended on to sort it out and ensure you're a happy customer. If you can't think of any other way to decide just stick a pin in and see what you hit.

Cheers, Alf

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Sorry, wandering off-topic here, but spokeshaves are rarely an either/or situation. The Boggs and the low angle are different animals and will excel at different tasks. Anything less than haf a dozen spokeshaves and you're really not a serious user... ;)

Oh, I know that NOW, but I didn't really know it when I bought the spokeshave, nor was I aware that I would soon sign up for one of Boggs's classes on a lark. Rapid evolution and all that. But I don't really like the LA spokeshave, and I'm not quite sure why.

I now have three spokeshaves (and a forkstaff, but no chair devils yet), but none are LN.


LV vs LN is a topic on a hiding to nothing. All the folks who like LN will say "LN" and all the folks that like LV will say "LV", then there'll be disagreement and offence taken by someone or other before the original poster ends up doing what they'd thought to do all along anyway. Jim, they all work. If they don't, both companies can be totally depended on to sort it out and ensure you're a happy customer. If you can't think of any other way to decide just stick a pin in and see what you hit.

True -- as long as you're comparing apples to apples. If you're looking at two tools with different capabilities, try to figure out what's more important to you.

[Alan DuBoff]

But I don't really like the LA spokeshave, and I'm not quite sure why.Those Veritas spokeshaves sell for $75, and I've got $45 (60% of list) that says you can get the Boggs and be happy!;) If that attracts you, email me.

I now have three spokeshaves (and a forkstaff, but no chair devils yet), but none are LN.Do you have all three of the Veritas spokeshaves? I would offer the the above offer on all your LV spokeshaves, if they're the LV Veritas with the round handles (flat, round, concave), I'd love to get them. I don't like the LA spokeshave model that Veritas makes.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Those Veritas spokeshaves sell for $75, and I've got $45 (60% of list) that says you can get the Boggs and be happy!;) If that attracts you, email me.
Do you have all three of the Veritas spokeshaves? I would offer the the above offer on all your LV spokeshaves, if they're the LV Veritas with the round handles (flat, round, concave), I'd love to get them. I don't like the LA spokeshave model that Veritas makes.

Sorry, I only have the LA from LV. The other two I have are older Stanleys. I kinda like the cool aluminum form to it, but I just am not yet happy with it. Perhaps once I got better with spokeshaves, I'll feel differently.

On a digression, I've been following Alf's chairmaking adventures with great interest. I've considered starting a woodworking blog separate from my main one (keep the main one more "general").

[Gary Herrmann]

I'm considering buying a jointer plane. Having scrolled through old threads, it seems that both are well thought of by their owners. Does anyone have experience with both and/or an opinion about which one is superior?

Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts.

jim

Jim, if you can wait, go to one of the woodworking shows and try the LN and the LV planes if both vendors are present. I think the most important thing is how it feels in your hand. FWIW, I have the LV BUJ. Been very happy with it. LN does make some beautiful tools tho.

[Randall Houghton]

Jim
Try to find someone who uses one or the other professionally. If that fails try to attend a demo where you can try each to see which you like best. You might possibly be able to try an LN at a Woodcraft store near you but if decide to you should call them first as all stores do not have the same stock.
This is an important tool and you should evaluate them personally and ignore the marketing hype. You might also check with Lee Valley to see if you can arrange for them to ship you aplane to try with the understanding that you'll return it if it's not your choice. The selection and use of hand planes is one of the most personal choices in all of woodworking. Take your time and good luck!
Regards
Randy

[Ken Werner]

Deirdre, at the risk of a small hijack of thread, can you explain why you regret buying the LV low angle instead of the LN Boggs?
Thanks,
Ken

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Well, I think this got hijacked a long time ago (with my too-stern pronouncement), so we might as well continue it.

There's a few reasons.

1) It didn't work as well as my other two spokeshaves -- more prone to tearout. In my experience, lower angles work better on endgrain, but how much is a spokeshave used for that?

2) It seems more fiddly to adjust than my other two spokeshaves.

3) I'm taking a Boggs class, and he obviously suggests the LN Boggs spokeshave.

Basically, when I bought the spokeshave, I was rather scared by the price on the LN, so I bought what I thought was next-best. While I might eventually learn to like the LV, I really don't like it yet.

Since the Dublin Woodcraft is having a tool swap this weekend, I'm considering taking it (and some of my other purchases that I don't love) along to see if I can get enough coin to swap for some other items I'd rather have. :)

[Jim Rolf]

Well Jim,

First is it for coarse work? Then the LN BUJ fits the purpose. No fine mouth opening is needed. Sharpening and installing the blade are fast made. Do you use it for medium work like flattening long boards or jointing? Then I suggest the #8 it is best choice because of its heft and wide blade. If it is for fine work like smoothing or planing a slight hollow in a length, I would go for the LN #7 or the LV BUJ, because of their adjustable mouths.

Marc

Marc,

My immediate motivation for buying a jointer is to flatten the top of a table that I am building for my sister. But I suppose my longer-term motivation is to get an all-around jointer.

jim

[Rob Lee]

Hi Deirdre!

A couple of comments....

The low angle spokeshave will not perform the same way as a high angle shave... they're two completely different tools. If you're not happy with it - then return it... no worries there. If you think that one's difficult... wait till you try a cigar shave (low angle, round)....THAT takes some getting used to.

The basic differences you're going to find with high end tools are less likely to be performance based, than those of appearance, features, and ergonomics. We certainly realize that there're a number of people who are willing to pay a premium for alternate materials, or eye appeal.... and will be addressing that market soon as well. We're focused on covering performance right now - and re-designing a basic set of handplanes, with as little overlap as possible. As we flesh out the basic plane line, we'll begin an even more specialized premium line...the first of which is in prototype phase now. (no - I'm not going to expand on that!).

Cheers -

Rob

[James Mittlefehldt]

Hi Deirdre!

A couple of comments....

The low angle spokeshave will not perform the same way as a high angle shave... they're two completely different tools. If you're not happy with it - then return it... no worries there. If you think that one's difficult... wait till you try a cigar shave (low angle, round)....THAT takes some getting used to.

The basic differences you're going to find with high end tools are less likely to be performance based, than those of appearance, features, and ergonomics. We certainly realize that there're a number of people who are willing to pay a premium for alternate materials, or eye appeal.... and will be addressing that market soon as well. We're focused on covering performance right now - and re-designing a basic set of handplanes, with as little overlap as possible. As we flesh out the basic plane line, we'll begin an even more specialized premium line...the first of which is in prototype phase now. (no - I'm not going to expand on that!).

Cheers -

Rob

Okay then answer this if you will Rob, are you working on a plough plane, as I believe that Irwin dropped the old Record from their listings and decent used ones are a tad thin on the ground in these parts.

[tod evans]

As we flesh out the basic plane line, we'll begin an even more specialized premium line...the first of which is in prototype phase now. (no - I'm not going to expand on that!).

Cheers -

Rob

okay you`ve got my ears perked....

[Rob Lee]

Okay then answer this if you will Rob, are you working on a plough plane, as I believe that Irwin dropped the old Record from their listings and decent used ones are a tad thin on the ground in these parts.

Hi James -

Yes - we are. We're always working on several products simultaneously, and the plough is is one of the active ones...

Cheers -

Rob

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

The low angle spokeshave will not perform the same way as a high angle shave... they're two completely different tools. If you're not happy with it - then return it... no worries there.

In my case, I expect to be doing more round and curvy work -- and will probably need it at some point, so I've been hemming and hawing about it. But thank you.

I think part of it is the learning curve for spokeshaves and drawknives at all. So my current plan is to keep it until after Boggs's class -- because if I haven't gotten the hang of them after that....


If you think that one's difficult... wait till you try a cigar shave (low angle, round)....THAT takes some getting used to.

So I've heard. I don't have any of them yet, but I do think they look cool.


The basic differences you're going to find with high end tools are less likely to be performance based, than those of appearance, features, and ergonomics. We certainly realize that there're a number of people who are willing to pay a premium for alternate materials, or eye appeal.... and will be addressing that market soon as well. We're focused on covering performance right now - and re-designing a basic set of handplanes, with as little overlap as possible. As we flesh out the basic plane line, we'll begin an even more specialized premium line...the first of which is in prototype phase now. (no - I'm not going to expand on that!).

Yay!

[Marc Waldbillig]

Marc,

My immediate motivation for buying a jointer is to flatten the top of a table that I am building for my sister. But I suppose my longer-term motivation is to get an all-around jointer.

jim

Then I'd go with an #8. That's my personal favourite, because of its heft. Adjustable mouth too. Maybe you should consider a second blade, for having one cambered and the other one a straight edge. #7 and BUJ if you don't like the weight. Maybe the BUJ when you do not like chipbreakers, frogs. Otherwise there isn't much difference.

Maybe handle design is an issue. The LV handle has a steeper angle, the LN has a classic angled handle. I'd use a LV handle on a more modern and so higher bench. It gives you more pression forward. LN handle gives you more pression right on the plane, best on a lower oldstyle bench. That's my guesswork, I heard it alot here and there, but only Rob can tell if that is the reason. And I don't think you will feel mucuh difference if it isn't for hours of planing.

Tell us what you'll choose. That said I will finish my dovetails.:)

Marc

[Ken Bryant]

I'll just add one more to the list of happy LN 8 users. Haven't used the LN jointer to compare.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Well, may as well spice things up a bit more and return to the original question. My answer is neither. I recommend getting the really long (as in 30" or so) wooden jointer from Clark & Williams. Why? I find it easier to move through the wood and its lighter weight. Also, it's easier to keep it perpendicular to the work area given its tall (3" or so) profile.

As to spokeshaves, I've bought and used two LV's (low angle (boy, this one makes me feel confident) and concave) as well as many antiques, low and high angles, round (MF cigar) and flat, curved, wood (including some very dainty boxwood versions) and metal. I would have bought a LN except that right before watching the Boggs' dvd on spokeshaves and drawknives I'd purchased a Stanley 85. There's not a one that I don't like or use (except the old travisher which needs longer handles, one of these days...)

Pam

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Pam, good choice on the Clark and Williams -- I've never seen any of their planes in person, but others like them.

I'm going to start another thread on spokeshaves and so on.