Drywall screws for cabinet installation?

[Gary Keedwell]

I'm having a semi-heated talk with someone about using drywall screws for cabinet installations. I remember reading threads where there was horror stories about the pratfalls of using drywall screws. This individual insists that they (drywall screws) are acceptable for hanging heavy cabinets. Surely, at their price, they can't be designed and manufactured with this practice in mind......can they???

Gary K.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Gary.......In My Humble Opinion and experience.....the metal that most drywall screws are made of is too brittle for my tastes and breaks too easily. Now, going into to drywall which has some "give" to it, that's not a problem. However, I wouldn't use them to attach cabinets to the wall unless they were sitting on the floor and the drywall screws were just to keep them attached to the wall. Anything overhead or hanging, I want some better quality screws!

[Bruce Wrenn]

Drywall screws aren't rated for rated for shear loads. A much better choice are installation screws. They are shear rated, and can be puchased from several sources. Their larger and flat head gives more resistance to pulling through nail rail.

[Owen Gregg]

Hi Gary,

Drywall screws generally have a thinner neck and more brittle body. They're also threaded through the neck. I found some info here:

http://www.apawood.org/pablog/index.cfm/2006/5/23/Nails-vs-screws-for-sheathing-applications

Drywall screws are designed for drywall-I wouldn't use them for anything structural other than what they're intended for; their brittleness lends to the heads popping under some shearing loads.

Just another .02,
Owen

[Jim Andrew]

Drywall screws were the first screws available which really worked well for hanging cabinets. Much better than nails. I have just kindof used the
term drywall screws generically as a screw for that purpose. But better to actually use the torque screws designed for that purpose. They are very tough and have yet to break one off when fastening a cabinet to the wall. Jim

[Dan Owen]

Gary,

I've been hanging cabinets for over 20 years with drywall screws and never had a cabinet fall off the wall. I have a lumber rack in my basement attatched to the wall with drywall screws holding over a half ton of lumber. I would sleep under it tonight and not miss a wink. If a cabinet is going to fall off a wall, it is going to be where the back is attatched to the carcass.

[Gary Keedwell]

Well gentlemen, so far it is 4 to one against using drywall screws for heavy loads. 5 to 1 with my vote against it. Just seems to me that the design and material are not up to the task

Gary K.

[eddie bee]

and one of the cabinets i just put over the fridge weights about 100 pounds with all the stuff in it, and i have had no issues....

Of course i do have hard wood behind the drywall that i am screwing the cabinets into, but i highly doubt that all the screws heads will pop off in the middle of the night...

[Mark Singer]

Drywall screws have the problem of the heads shearing off....it works ok if you use more screws and the loads are reasonable.....but for the price of a few square drive woodworking screws (which look very similar) why take the chance?

http://www.mcfeelys.com/images/prodimages/white.jpg

[Kyle Kraft]

I use "construction screws" from the borg which have a thicker shank and seem to have a higher modulus of elasticity than the more brittle "drywall screws".

Kyle in K'zoo

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

They are not "designed" for the purpose of hanging cabinets. But then neither were regular conventional old fashioned wood screws "designed" for hanging doors or cabinets.

Most fasteners are not designed with any speciific function in mind but rather a general application. There are plenty of specialty fasteners made for things like cabinets. For example a screw designed specifically for that application would likely had a pan-head that is slightly larger than other screws of the same thread diameter and a neck under the head that isn't threaded ans is just long enough to reach through the intended cabinet backboard. The thread also may be designed with the intent that it would grip more firmly than other screw threads in that diameter.

It may seem silly to bother with a speciality screw for something as mundane as fastening cabinets to a wall. However, two factors emerge: (1) that it should be part of a engineered effort to make the fast paced production installation of cabinets go more swiftly and easily, and (2) the larger diameter pan head will express a lesser tendency to fail by tearing through the thin cabinet back board.

If they came with the cabinets - and I haven't lost 'em, I'll use 'em. However, unless I have some reason to bother I'll stick with the drywall screws and simply put a few more in - just to be sure.

[Kyle Kraft]

Screws are kinda like knots, if you can't tie the right right one, tie lots of 'em.

Kyle in K'zoo

[Scott Loven]

I have purchased some "Drywall" screws in the past that were 3 inches long, had thick shafts that were not threaded to the head that I am sure would be plenty strong for hanging cabinets. I have also used some 1-1/4" dry wall screws made in china that were so brittle that the heads would break off as soon as you hit the paper. Still, for a few Penny's difference, why take the chance?
Scott

[Kyle Kraft]

Those Kreg pocket hole screws do work nice, and I have never broken one even when I tried.

[Sonny Porter]

So what screws should we be buying for this? I'm about to rip out old kitchen cabinets and install new ones. I've always heard that drywall screws were a good option for this purpose.

[Jesse Cloud]

Considering the amount of $$ you spend on cabinets or on the materials to make your own cabinets, its penny wise and pound foolish to go cheap on the screws to hold the cabinets up.
My two cents.

[Per Swenson]

Hello All,

Sure, twenty years ago drywall screws with cupped washers was

a acceptable installation procedure. Times have changed.

I use both Mcfeelys cabinet installation screws (looks like Mr. Singers Image)

and Fastcap installation screws. See below.

Go ahead hang those storage cabinets in your garage with drywall screws,

They really won't go anywhere. To avoid buyers remorse for Rich and

Sally Volvo when they sign that last check, well it pays to be a little

more professional.

Per

[Jim Becker]

Drywall screws are for hanging drywall. Period. Appropriate fasteners should always be used for the job at hand.

For hanging cabinets, many folks use heavy pan-head screws (sometimes with decorative washers). The box I bought from McFeeley's are #12 and 2.5" long...with the square drive format that I prefer.

Remember, it's not the weight of the cabinet...it's the weight of the cabinet WITH all the stuff one might put in it. That can be a lot of load. Drywall screws were not designed to handle a lot of load, are generally brittle and can snap off by just looking at them funny...

[skip coyne]

has anyone actually seen catasrophic failure from a cabinet installed with drywall screws ?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

has anyone actually seen catasrophic failure from a cabinet installed with drywall screws ?

Skip.....I've never had cabinets installed with drywalls screws fail but I have had too many of them snap off during wallboard installation because of their brittle metal. Turners are highly recommended not to use them for mounting turnings to their faceplates for the same reason.

Potlatch Corporation even advices on their tours to use nails over screws in situations where shear strength is important.

Use what you want.........for a reason.....I use them for wallboard installation..........I won't use them where I'm concerned about structural integrity. To me it's a matter of personal preference.

[John Downey]

Can't say as I've ever heard any horror stories about using drywall screws for anything you like. That said there certainly are better fasteners for the task, readily available at home centers and McFeely's. If you're a pro, there's no excuse for using the best and most appropriate fastener. If you're a home owner with a bunch of those heavy 3" drywall screws and a couple boxes to put up, and don't want to run to the store, go ahead and use them. A couple extra wouldn't hurt either. Most people forget that, when properly installed, a screw sees relatively little shear force. The screw is in tension, and the friction between the two things being fastened, the cabinet box and the wall in this case, is what resists the shear force and keeps the whole thing loaded with the wife's antique plates from falling on the tile (and cracking it too, naturally). The main weakness with drywall screws, as other posters have mentioned, is their brittleness. I'd say though that most drywall screw failures result from over torque than from shearing. I still use them for many things, including the occaissional cabinet, as I'm not a professional installer, they're as useful as vise grips if you just understand their limitations.

John

[Dan Owen]

Skip,

Like I said, I never have. The likelihood of a cabinet coming down is the case where you have a quarter inch back attatched with staples and the back is still attatched to the wall. Properly built and hung cabinets should be done in such a way where a French cleat is the means of installation. Although this is the preferred method, I have gone through the cabinet back directly into a stud, but I make sure I have reinforced the back with what else---drywall screws. We use to do a little on site test after hanging a cabinet by grabbing it and hanging our own body weight on the unit. Never had one budge. I sometimes believe that today's manufacturer's have caused us to become a little over analytical on how and what we are supposed to use in order to complete a task. In short, drywall screws are a pretty good all around screw. Yea--there may be screws that are better for hanging cabinets, but are they neccessary? I doubt it. If you are hanging cabinets and at the same time anticapating earthquakes and nuclear explosions, the other screws may help you sleep better at night. I for one was never into having dozens of different screws laying around for dozens of different tasks---some of which I may be used once or every ten years. Anyway---I'm ready to be ripped, but what the heck. As I gaze over and look at my kitchen cabinets they're still hanging after all these years.

[Scott Loven]

Question: When would someone NEED to use 3 inch drywall screws for hanging drywall?
Scott

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Screws are kinda like knots, if you can't tie the right right one, tie lots of 'em.

Kyle in K'zoo

I declare that a Sig Line.

[Don Baer]

I put the cabinates in my garage 20 years ago and hung them with drywall screws and have had zero problems. I am no light weight and can hang on my cabinate with no problem. That said I have sheared of many drywall screws and also had problems with the allen head stripping out. For those two reason I am replacing my drywall screws with other types as I use up my supply. Would I use drywall screws again for hanging cabinate. Sure but my prefered screws are not drywall screws.

[Dave Falkenstein]

So what screws should we be buying for this? I'm about to rip out old kitchen cabinets and install new ones. I've always heard that drywall screws were a good option for this purpose.

I'd recommend these:

http://www.mcfeelys.com/subcat.asp?sid=406

[Corvin Alstot]

The Architectural Woodwork Institute -Quality Standards expressly do not
permit the use of drywall screws for architectural cabinets and casework
for any quality level (Premium, custom, or economy).
See Section 1700, Installation Standards.

Drywall screws may work, but why take a chance when there are other solutions.

[Kyle Kraft]

Ok, it's official. See below:)

[Lee DeRaud]

Question: When would someone NEED to use 3 inch drywall screws for hanging drywall?My thoughts exactly. And maybe I just live right, but I've never broken one...which is more than I can say for the deck screws I used to use when I needed screws that long.

[Owen Gregg]

Hi Scott,

I believe a lot of times the extra long screws are used when a higher fire rating is desired. Typically 5/8" drywall is rated at one hour, but you may have a room (e.g. commercial painter's workspace, elevator shaft, etc.) that requires a much higher fire rating. In this instance you use much thicker drywall (only 2' wide and heavy as all get out-called coreboard mayber?) or you stagger 5/8" drywall one layer on top of the other until you've reached your fire rating requirement. Each layer requires longer screws, so you'd go from 1 1/4" to 2", etc.

Owen

[Steve Clardy]

Interesting thread. No comment yet;)

[Jim Becker]

Question: When would someone NEED to use 3 inch drywall screws for hanging drywall?
Scott

Hmm...good question. Perhaps in many layered fire wall applications??? Or...they are out there to generate revenue from do-it-yourself-ers. ;)

[Jesse Messick]

Quick!
Run into your kitchen!
Replace all the drywall screws holding the cabinets to the wall.
Hurry-before it's too late! There's not much time! Emminent shear failure is upon us!

This is an example of a couple magazine articles (Fine Homebuilding for one) that came out awhile ago and make people think that it's not "safe" to use drywall screws for cabinet installs. Now we have, of course, tons of screws that are flooding the market to correct this "problem".

If you don't mind the black head (and alot of us do) 3" dw screws are not a problem. I use 'em where you cant really see them on finer work.

[Jamie Buxton]

What use are 3" drywall screws? IIRC, that's what Sam Maloof uses to hold together the joint between the rear post and the seat in his famous rockers.

[Jerry White]

I think the question is: "What screw is best suited to hanging cabinets?". I will grant you that drywall screws have been used in many applications besides hanging drywall.

My question is: Considering that we now know that manufacturers and code authorities say that drywall screws are too brittle to be trusted to hang cabinets, why not just buy the recommended screws? It is a simple matter to buy and stock the proper screws. How many of us hang enough drywall to even need to stock drywall screws?

[Lee DeRaud]

How many of us hang enough drywall to even need to stock drywall screws?Probably about as many of us who hang enough cabinets to even need to stock cabinet screws.

[John Downey]

That must be an example of "The cabinets are falling" mentality.

[jud dinsmore]

as a semi-professional cabinet installer i use 2 1/2 drywall screws (course threaded) to install cabinets. 2 1/2 because i use these to attach cabinets together through their stiles and 3's wouldn't allow for a countersink. i've never seen or heard of a cabinet falling off a wall. there have been some interesting post to this thread but so far no one has brought up the fact that (typically) wall cabinets are screwed together through their stiles so that the holding power isn't limited to the screws of an individual cabinet but rather all connected cabinets as a unit. for example the weight of heavy china that sits in one cabinet is distributed to other surrounding cabinets which probably don't contain heavy china (who has that much heavy china anyways?). also, today's kitchens usually have fridge panels (3/4 material with a stile on the front), pantry units, and oven units. all of these rest on the floor and connect with surrounding wall units providing support and relieving pressure from the drywall screws. i have snapped drywall screws but only in stile-to-stile connects (involving real hardwood).

the real problem (as someone mentioned earlier) is the factory cabinet construction. it seems that the predominant means of joinery is hot glue and upholstery staples. how's that for fine construction!?! not to mention the shipping and handling process which constantly delivers racked and damaged goods.

all good points but works for me might not work for you. i think that speciality screws are superior. but then agian, so is framing with 2x6 vs. 2x4. i believe in and provide high quality work but over-building for the sake of over-building only drives up the costs. i say semi-pro cabinet installer because i'm a home builder most of the time and moonlight installing cabinets. the ever changing building code has got us doing more harm (by means of driving up the costs) than good. why is a 145 mph wind tested window required? how many roofs and walls can sustain that same test? ah, another story for another day. i vote for drywall screws.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Drywall screws are NOT for cabinet hanging. I know a ton of folks who use them, but they are shortchanging their clients. Drywall screws have no shear strength whatsoever and should never be used for anything wood related. I use deck screws. I know they cost more but I sleep very well at night.

[Steve Clardy]

All these comments have me curious.
Tonight I'm going to dig out all my fasteners I either use, or used to use to hang cabs with.
Nothing scientific, just something to give me an idea about what I am currently using.

[Per Swenson]

Jeez, I dunno fellas,

I voiced my opinion before, I was gonna leave it at that.

Until I read this sentence posted by, Jud.

" i believe in and provide high quality work but over-building for the sake of over-building only drives up the costs."

Sir, One hundred 3 inch drwall screws costs around $ 6.00

50 cabinet screws in almond costs $ 8.00.

Thats what? $2.00 a kitchen?

My extra double mocha latte grand with shot of espresso served with a

smile runs 5 bucks. If the profit margin is that slim in your neck a the woods

I am crossing it off my places to retire list.

10 x 3" Almond Cabinet Hanger Screws

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Per

[Jamie Buxton]

It seems to me that we've had a lot of people saying "Gee, I've used 'em, and they don't break", and a lot of people saying "I've read that they're no good." Everybody's very strong in their respective opinions.

Anybody willing to take the time to do the experiment? Make up a test cabinet-to-wall junction. Screw it together with drywall screws. Stress it to see how it breaks, and what forces it takes. Do the same with other screws - whatever you think would be a good comparison. Report the results to the rest of us.

There's nothing like real data to settle a discussion.

[Gary Keedwell]

Well, it seems to me that there is a tool for every job and there is hardware for every job. So what is the fuss all about? When you reach for a chisel for a mortise, do you use a paring chisel? When you need a finish nail on delicate trim, do you reach for a common nail? Sure that hardware and tool might do that job, but is that up to your own individual standards? I don't know, but if I don't have the proper tool or hardware the job just won't get done that day.IMHO

Gary K.

[jud dinsmore]

great idea jamie but i've already installed many, many kitchens with drywall screws and none have fallen apart. when i remodeled my kitchen a couple of years ago i installed my cabinets with 2 1/2 drywall screws and they're still on the wall. they are 42" tall cabinets than my wife has packed full. and as i mentioned in my earlier post, pertaining to cabinets/accessories that "support" wall units by means of extending to the finished floor (eg fridge panels, oven units, etc.), my kitchen contains none of these. they are soley supported by off-the-shelf, 2 1/2 drywall screws. i don't think i need to hang on them or rig a come-a-long to test situations that don't exist in real world. when was the last time one of your dinner guest tried to rip a cabinet off the wall (not to be a smarty but really)?


per,

yes, i am a cheap sob. you have to understand that my point wasn't the actual cost difference but the notion of spending more to beef up something that wasn't a problem until mcfeely's told us it was. has anyone actually witnessed cabinets falling off the wall as a direct result of screw failure? i cannot remember if anyone has but i have heard a lot of guys quoting cabinet screw sales literatue (drywall screws - bad, cabinet screws - good). my aversion to "cabinet" screws is probably because the one's i've tried have been supplied with the cabinets and they're junk. i would like to think they are inferior in quality because most won't penetrate the cabinet backs and i've had a handfull strip out (even with an impact driver) and bend half-way in. i simply don't have time to pre-drill that many holes (i usually install four screws per cabinet) and make money on the job.

if you've been in construction (to include cabinet and furniture making) for more than 10 minutes you know that a whole lot of people do the same job differently. it usually doesn't make one wrong - it's just what works best for that individual. i really enjoy talking and reading about different ways of accomplishing the same job, but you have to filter what other are saying and how it could work for you.

what works for me - i use one screw to attach factory cabinets (usually 1/2" particleboard cabinet back) to the wall and to each other. i use a 2x4 as a deadman to hold the wall units up while i plumb, level, and attach to the wall. i clamp and screw adjecant cabinets together before attaching the new unit to the wall. i probably average 20 "boxes" for an average eight hour day working by myself. i hope this helps.

[Jamie Buxton]

Jud, I'm wandering off topic here, but what screws do you use to hang uppers on steel studs?

[John Lucas]

10 x 3" Almond Cabinet Hanger Screws
Per

Per, I think you make a good point but you are forgetting that Fine Woodworking recalled a study showing that almond paint in manufacturing of screws make the screw weaker than case hardened black screws. So, it isnt always about money, coffeehead.

[Per Swenson]

Heh,heh,ha