Need some power advice!

[Brian Kent]

Thank you all for your excellent advice on handtools and techniques. I've been a neander-in-training since January. I've made a dozen or so dovetail boxes and two pieces of furniture - a cherry corner table and an oak night stand / cabinet. Right now I'm working on a hybrid workbench - Klaus style but with a metal vise instead of a wooden tail vise - out of Maple, Purpleheart and Ash. I am having a wonderful time.

My problem is my dangeroursly inadequate table saw.

I have an $89 Ryobi with a Woodworker II blade that cost much more than the saw, a home-made base, a home-made cloth dust collector, a home-made zero clearance insert, and a home-made splitter that just broke off and shot the maple I was cutting into my now very-bruised finger. As I was bandaging it up I decided that I could no longer afford such a cheap table saw.

I am willing to go for the $1,000 range. What I see in the reviews is a Delta Hybrid 36-717 with a Biesmeyer fence and tableboard ($949 and free shipping at Woodcraft) or a Grizzley G1023SL cabinet saw ($925 plus $89 shipping).

Does anyone have recommendations on these or other favorites? I plan on being an amateur enthusiast for a lifetime.

Thank you for any and all advice.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

If you have your heart set on buying brand new - save $$ another year and get a really nice saw.

Otherwise look at used tools.

The up side of used tools - especially if $$ is an issue - is that they are cheaper, you get more for less, and later when you are more demanding and can afford it you can up-grade to a more sophisticated machine without any remorse.

[Vaughn McMillan]

Welcome to the Creek, Brian. Purchasing used might be one route, if you know what potential problems to look for in a used saw. Regarding a new saw, I disagree with Cliff...for around $1000 you can buy a saw that'll handle a lifetime of amateur enthusiasm. Yes, $2000 will buy a better saw, but you need a saw now, not next year, and for your purposes, I don't think the extra grand would necessarily be worth it. Personally, I'd probably be more likely to get the Griz cabinet saw instead of the Delta hybrid, but take that with a grain of salt, since I've seen neither saw in person.

My 2¢ -

- Vaughn

[tod evans]

brian, i agree with both clif and vaughn, you`ll do better buying a used saw for a grand but if you gotta have new i`d get the biggest motor/trunion combination for the money and in the 1g range new the griz is your only choice...02 tod

[Brian Kent]

What's a trunion?

If I look at used saws, where?

Brian

[Wes Bischel]

Brian,
Here's a good link to an exploded view of a TS:

http://www.owwm.com/files/PDF/FAQ/TableSawTune.pdf

It's easier to show a picture than explain it - at least for me.

Also, if you do decide to go used, there is a wealth of info at old wood working machines:

http://www.owwm.com/

About 15 years ago, I bought an older (early '70's vintage) Rockwell/Delta contractors saw and it has performed well for me - $100 well spent!:D

Either way you go, good luck.

Wes

[Vaughn McMillan]

What's a trunion?

If I look at used saws, where?

Brian
The trunnion on a table saw is the pivoting mechanism that allows the blade to tilt. As with many things in woodworking machinery, the beefier, the better. You'll see lots of discussion here about saw "A" having a better trunnion than saw "B", or the pros and cons about contractor saw trunnions vs. cabinet saw trunnions.

Used saws can sometimes be found in your local want ads, or on CraigsList.org, or on auction sites like eBay. If you post your location, other folks here might be able to steer you towards good places in your area. Keep in mind if you buy a used saw that's not in your local area, it's hard to do a good inspection, and shipping can be a deal-breaker.

I moved up from a $99 benchtop saw (similar to your current saw) to a $600 contractor-style saw last year (Ridgid TS3650). I purchased new, since I didn't feel I had the experience to know what to look for in a used saw. I don't have any pressing need yet to upgrade my current saw, but by the time I do, I'll have more experience and perhaps be better equipped to look for used equipment.

I hope this helps -

- Vaughn

[Brian Kent]

I don't feel confident in my learning curve for a used table saw, since it would involve cleaning, tuning, buying parts and accessories. With my handplanes, I could afford mistakes.

So I'll buy the best I can, new or fully restored, and stretch as far as I can afford in this part of life. I'm 50 now, so if I get the right tool it could last a lifetime and if I discover why my tool is too limited, I'll get a new / better model when I retire at 70.

So I could go with the Grizzley Cabinet Saw, the Delta Hybrid with Beismeyer fence, or your Rigid contractor saw idea.

If I bought today, I would go for the Grizzley.

I remain open and teachable.

Brian

[chester stidham]

go for the grizzly they are very nice saws, also look at the sears 22124 and the 22114, they are made by Orian and are the same saw as the Delta if you want to save even more the 22104 with steel wings is probly the best deal in saws today i'v sean them for less then 400. I found the 22104 in sears with the cast iron wings on it and got it for 350 my son worked there brought it home opend the box took the steel wings back showed them the cast wings on the display saw and they removed them on the spot and gave them to me put my biesmeyer 52 inch fence on it and it's been a great saw cuts every thing well. Shop around there are good deals out there to be had.:D

[Allen Bookout]

Brian,

I do not have a 1023sl nor have I seen one in person but I have seen some reports from owners that have very good things to say about it.

From the specs it seems to be about the same as a 3hp Uni like I have for a few hundred less. One guy that looked at the 1023sl said that the finish was equal to or better than the Uni.

Not much information, and it is all second hand, but it is all that I have. I feel that there are memebers here that must have that saw and maybe they will jump in.

I just did a quick search and here are some Creekers that have that saw and what they have to say about it:
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=31879&highlight=1023sl

Allen

[Dave Boxmeyer]

I can't comment on the other saws, although I've heard very good things about the Grizzly and folks seem to love it.

I have the Delta 36-715, which is the same saw as the 36-717 with Delta's version of the B fence. I purchased it on sale from Amazon for around $650 with free shipping and no tax. I don't know what their going rate is these days, but my guess is you can get it for much less than the $1k you are talking. If it's enough saw for you (it is for me) than you have another $250 you can spend on something else! I'm happy with the Delta - although there were some initial troubles with getting it perfectly aligned. I went new for similar reasons to you (not sure I knew what to look for in a used saw). Additionally, I didn't see many for sale up by me (Boston) when I was in the market and didn't really want to wait around a few months for someone to decide to sell their saw.

Whatever you get, don't look back once you've made the purchase - enjoy the saw!

[Wayne Ashing]

Where are you located? I have a Delta contractor saw Limited Edition, one of the last American made models, It is one of the Jet white versions. Has 30" Unifence, Delta molbil base, plus acc. or a 52" biessemeyer clone fence system. I haven't decided what to do with it now that I bought my JET cabinet saw.

[Ken Belisle]

Brian,

Not sure where you're located, so I can't guess what the shipping cost would be, but after tons of research, I will be upgrading from a Delta Contractor's saw to the Bridgewood 10" cabinet saw in Oct/Nov. It sells for around $1,400.00 from Wilke Machinery in York, Pennsylvania, but to me it looks like it's worth the extra $400. It comes standard with a Beismeyer 50" commercial fence, which in itself is probably worth almost that much.

With all of the above talk about trunions, this one comes with the only 8 bolt, (4 each) cast iron trunion system that I know of.

Take a look at the Wilke web site and you might agree...........

Just my opinion

[Jeff Horton]

While this won't be popular I have a Delta Contractor saw (forget the model number and it doesn't matter anyway) that have used for a couple of years now. I see nothing wrong with it. It's a great saw and does a great job. I think this saw is in the $500 to $600 range now. It does everything a table saw should do and is well within your budget.

I am about to replace it with a Unisaw because I ran up on a deal I couldn't refuse. If I had not found this Unisaw I would continue to use my contractors saw and be totally happy with it. I am excited to put my Unisaw in place and start using it, is it really going to cut any better? Is the lumber going to come out better? No it's not. It should have less vibration and will have good dust collection. It may be a little nicer to use but it's the results that really matter. What comes off the saw.

My point is you don't have to have $1500 or $2000 saw to do good work. It's nice and there is nothing wrong with a saw of that caliber. But it's not a necessity. A lesser saw can and will do the same job and just as well. So just don't get talking into spending more you want.

[Ken Belisle]

Jeff,

The only reason that I want to upgrade from my contractor's saw to a cabinet saw is that it's such a PITA whenever I want to bevel something. First I have to move my outfeed table/cabinet, then I have to remove the cover I made for the back of the saw to help with the dust collection, then I can tilt the blade/motor. Then when I'm done with that cut or cuts, I have to replace everything back where it was.

The saw has served me well for close to 10 years, but I'm just tired of reconfiguring it to cut a simple bevel. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who thinks that this is reason enough (or just a great excuse) to upgrade.

Just my opinion...........

[Brian Kent]

I am located in Riverside, CA - a couple of hours from Los Angeles.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

So I could go with the Grizzley Cabinet Saw, the Delta Hybrid with Beismeyer fence, or your Rigid contractor saw idea.

If I bought today, I would go for the Grizzley.



You will be gigglingly jumping around stupifiedly happy with anything you just mentioned. The delta and Griz being the nicer choices.

One thing: The bigger saws have bigger engines. The hazard there is most dramatically seen in kickbacks.
A serious kick back can provide a lifetime's worth of drama.
Avoide it by investing in the best riving knife you can.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

While this won't be popular I have a Delta Contractor saw (forget the model number and it doesn't matter anyway) that have used for a couple of years now. I see nothing wrong with it. It's a great saw and does a great job. I think this saw is in the $500 to $600 range now. It does everything a table saw should do and is well within your budget.

Allright everybody time to jump on the guy with the contractor saw - - - -

Actually he's right. There are not so many differences between a good contractor saw and a decent cabinet saw. There are differences, but I don't believe that accuracy is one of them.

I used to build musical instruments on a contractor saw. It wasn't even a Delta.

[Jeff Kerr]

There is always great feedback when someone asks for opinions. It is one of the reasons I like being on SMC. :D

Anyway, I have the 1023SL and I am very happy with it. Not wanting to start the holywar debates of who makes the best. The reality is that there are several good selections out there on the market.

I went with the cabinet saw because I have the space for it and wanted the extra hp. The bies clone fence is dead on after minor setup time. I would do it again.

You can go used. There are still deals to be had. However, I drove 75-85 miles one way last month to go to a farm auction that had a 1996 year Grizzly G1021 15" planer. I waited 7 hours for that item to come up for sale and the buyer paid $625 to get it. I don't think that was a good deal considering the replacement model G0453 with a 3hp motor not 2hp sells new for $775. Instead I am ordering the G0453.

Bottom line. Do your homework. Know how much is too much. Have fun

[Jeff Horton]

Allright everybody time to jump on the guy with the contractor saw - - - -

If this were another forum I frequent I probably wouldn't have said what I did because my asbestos underwear are out being repaired from the scorching they received last time I dared say you don't have to have top of the line tools. ;) Nice thing about SMC is even when I step on someone's toes, they are civil.

I just wanted to make the point that you don't have to have a cabinet saw to do good work. I hope to have my cabinet saw installed next week and don't begrudge anyone that wants one. I wanted one! Just sometimes it seems like we want to tell people you HAVE TO HAVE the best to do good work. When it is simply not the case.

[Larry Cooke]

There are not so many differences between a good contractor saw and a decent cabinet saw.Actually, if you read his post one of the things he was mentioning was the kludge he uses for dust collection. Seems to me that the contractor saw is usually lacking in this department.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that a good contractor saw is every bit as good as a cabinet saw, but they do tend to lack in dust collection and also they require more space in the rear due to a motor hanging out. I think he also mentioned pulling he saw out, so if mobility and storage is a factor then he needs to be aware of this too.

Bottom line, either of the two saws he mentioned would serve him very well in my opinion. I think it's just of a matter of pricing and availability.

Larry

[Don Baer]

Brian,
My neighbor has this Ollie still for sale. He's only about 20 miles and has a pickup truck. If you interested PM me. Put a new Bessey fence on it an you'll have all of the saw you ever need.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=36770

[Larry Cooke]

Put a new Bessey fence on it an you'll have all of the saw you ever need.Don,

Don't forget that it's 3 phase. He'll need to address this as well.

Larry

[Don Baer]

It comes with a brand new phase converter.

[Larry Cooke]

It comes with a brand new phase converter.Aha, I didn't see that in the post for the saw - sorry about that!

I'll keep my nose out where it doesn't belong now...:o

Larry

[Don Baer]

It's OK. I often don't read everything that posted myself, thats when I find a have a case of foot in mouth disease ;)

[tod evans]

brian, it would be a good idea to look at the saw don mentions, i personally would jump on it over a griz...02 tod

[Greg Koch]

This guy nicely, and effectively addresses the dust collection concerns on a contractor saw... I plan on making the same rear panel for mine. Amazon has the bottom plate on sale for $7 and change. I ordered and it's on the way and will replace my cardboard one I have on now.

http://home.pacbell.net/jdismuk/sawdust.html

Nice simple mobile base for moving the saw around too. I'm putting a Rigid Hercu-Lift Plus on mine.

[Jeff Horton]

brian, it would be a good idea to look at the saw don mentions, i personally would jump on it over a griz...02 tod

I will second that one!

[Brian Kent]

Friends, thank you for all of your advice in sorting this out.

I ordered the Grizzly 1023SL today. I added the $59 tennoning jig as it answered a safety and accuracy question I had on several kinds of cuts. Then I used the 20% off coupon from Rockler to get the Incra Miter Sled 5000 for $240.

My final cost is $1347 plus "$20 to $39" for putting the saw off of the truck and onto my driveway.

Although this is more than I thought I would spend, I am satisfied with my research and your advice and plan on using a safe and effective tool for somewhere between a whole long time and a lifetime.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Brian........there are a lot of folks here with that saw! The LOML bought me a new saw 2 years ago before I found SMC and about Grizzley. With what I know now......if I were doing it over....I'd be driving that same model! Good luck! And don't forget to post some pics after it arrives!

[Vaughn McMillan]

Congrats on your decision, Brian. You should be very happy with that setup. If for any reason you're not, let me know and I'll gladly come down there and take it all off your hands. And I won't even charge you shipping. :p

And ditto what Ken said about pictures when it all arrives.

- Vaughn

[Mike Hill]

Thank you all for your excellent advice on handtools and techniques. I've been a neander-in-training since January. I've made a dozen or so dovetail boxes and two pieces of furniture - a cherry corner table and an oak night stand / cabinet. Right now I'm working on a hybrid workbench - Klaus style but with a metal vise instead of a wooden tail vise - out of Maple, Purpleheart and Ash. I am having a wonderful time.

My problem is my dangeroursly inadequate table saw.

I have an $89 Ryobi with a Woodworker II blade that cost much more than the saw, a home-made base, a home-made cloth dust collector, a home-made zero clearance insert, and a home-made splitter that just broke off and shot the maple I was cutting into my now very-bruised finger. As I was bandaging it up I decided that I could no longer afford such a cheap table saw.

I am willing to go for the $1,000 range. What I see in the reviews is a Delta Hybrid 36-717 with a Biesemeyer fence and tableboard ($949 and free shipping at Woodcraft) or a Grizzly G1023SL cabinet saw ($925 plus $89 shipping).

Does anyone have recommendations on these or other favorites? I plan on being an amateur enthusiast for a lifetime.

Thank you for any and all advice.

I have a Grizzly 1023SL I purchased in May of this year. I could not be happier. I use the WWII Blade and a zero clearance insert. I replaced the Grizzly splitter with a Biesemeyer which is made for the Unisaw. It works great! My guard is a Brett, but I think there are better guards around.

If you would like, I can email you or post some pictures on here of my set-up.
Mike

[Brian Kent]

Yes, please post some pictures! Tell me what makes the Biesemeyer splitter worth the money. Did you buy or make the zero-clearance insert, and what is a Brett Guard?

[Brian Kent]

An electrician told me I could daisy chain another 220 plug below the 220 dryer plug. It is a 30 Amp circuit and the Grizzly is 18 Amps. I went to home depot for supplies and got a very different message from a home improvement book and the aisle guy.

Both said that every 220 circuit is dedicated to a single outlet. When I talked to an electrician working at my house recently, he quoted $2,200 for a new 200Amp main circuit board for the house and another $1,200 for a circuit box in the garage. That sort of drawfs the cost of the table saw!

I zipped over the the phone to call Grizzly to hold the order but the 1023SL had already shipped.

My default position is easy. I unplug the drier when I plug in the table saw.

But for a bigger solution, does anyone have wisdom to chart a course between "change plugs for free" and "pay an electrician $3,400"?

[Allen Bookout]

Brian,

I could tell you what I would do in your situation but I am not a professional electrician and am not up on the codes so I will refrain. If I were you I would start a new thread with your electrical question to get the attention of the electrical experts that hang around here.

I am glad that you did not get the order canceled as you can get set up for reasonable cost and will really enjoy your new saw.

Allen

[Jim O'Dell]

Brian, I'm not an electrician, but the problem I would see with having 2 - 220 outlets on one circuit is if both got turned on at the same time. 220 circuits are usually for high draw appliances, and therefore are normally dedicated to one appliance per circuit. I have heard of people using multiple and that's ok. But if you sold the house and someone else had 2 things going not knowing the set up, it could be a big problem.
2 questions...How far away from your breaker box is the saw going to be located? And is it already full? If not too far, and you have 2 slots open, you could run a new line for the saw, or possibly put in a big breaker to run a small box for the saw and other items...even the dryer. Lots of possibilities. Jim.

[Jim O'Dell]

Oh, and congrats on the saw. I hope to have a couple of Grizz products in the next few years, the 1023 is one of them, if the economy will turn around in the business I'm in. Jim.

[Allen Bookout]

And is it already full? If not too far, and you have 2 slots open, you could run a new line for the saw
OK. One comment. Like Jim said, if you have room for a 220 breaker in your present box just run a new 220v/20 or 30amp line to your garage with the appropriate receptacle/receptacles. A peice of cake to do and very inexpensive.

Allen

[Brian Kent]

I'll start a fresh thread.

For now, there is no more room in my breaker box. I have a 100 Amp breaker box.

[Brian Kent]

I put the new thread in general woodworking forum undae "220 volt questions".

[Mike Hill]

Brian: Here are 5 pictures of my set-up on the new Grizzly and some answers to your questions:

1. I like the Biesemeyer Splitter because it works and is easily removable. If you buy the one intended for the Unisaw, it is easily installed on the Grizzly. Takes some time and effort, but no modification was necessary.

2. The "Zero Clearance" insert is from Grizzly and works fine. In the future I will be making my own.

3. If you are using the Biesemeyer Splitter, there are better solutions for the guard. Ask on the forum about the Excalibur etc.

4. The out feed table was built a couple of weeks ago and is a real help in managing long boards, plywood etc. As you can see, based on members recommendations I added considerable storage and gave myself a lot more room in the Shop.

Let me know if you have any further questions.
Mike

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[Brian Kent]

The Grizzly 1023SL table saw arrived yesterday. The driver set it right outside the garage. I didn't know how easy it would be to put on the hand truck or piano dolly, so I tried to lift one end. Couldn't even rock it. That surprised me until I later realized that I was standing on the pallet that the saw was bolted to. I got off the pallet and it moved much easier.

Today I began to set it up. Everything fine so far. I'm very impressed with the machining and the paint job.

I hear about how long it took to take off the waxy grease. It took less than four minutes. I found the secret. I used minieral spirits as the manual recommended. The only difference was we are having a little heat spell out in Riverside California and the garage was over 100 degrees. I guess that softened it up a bit. It could be a different story if I was doing the same thing in a winter in Minnesota at 40 below or so.