Furniture plywood and home depot

[Al Willits]

Newbie's got another question.....

While wandering the past posts trying to learn enough to keep my questions down to a few thousand, I hit a post on plywood, it mentioned furniture grade plywood for over a $100 a 3/4x4x8 sheet, and also home depot's stuff for about $40 a sheet.

The guy at Menards says people use the $40 for furniture all the time and not to pay $100 for it....uh huh....methinks there has to be a difference...right?

Right now I'm looking at building cabinets for the garage and the $40 Birch don't look all that bad, but if I build something for the litte shebeast, she'll want the "good" stuff....:)

Al

[Gail O'Rourke]

You are right on track - look closely at the HD and you will find voids and such, when buying furniture grade - birch I can get for 65-80 a sheet furniture grade - there really is a difference (cherry and walnut ply can run you up to $120 per sheet). Paint grade, I will use the HD - and for shop cabinets it's perfect. If you keep your eye out, sometimes they even have specials on poplar or maple ply for $29 - which I will always pick up for shop jigs and such.

Have fun!

[Jim Becker]

I have used the birch plywood from HD for cabinet carcases, but they are both painted and have face frames. Thickness was variable; so was quality over time. Any of the ply I got through my cabinetmaker friends was noticeably better quality, had thicker veneers, more consistent in thickness and had less voids....for a price.

[Ken Garlock]

Al, check around for what is called "shop grade" plywood. It is notch below cabinet grade and will most likely be birch veneer. I buy mine at a Dallas hardwood store for around $25/sheet. I find that worst part of borg plywood is that it will be warped in some way or another.

Hey Tyler, where is a store for Al??

[Don Baer]

for shop cabs I'd probubly go with the borg. In my new shop I'm thinking MDF instead of ply but I still got some time. For anything inside the house such as cabinates and if I use sheet goods for furniture I'll spend the extra money and buy the good stuff.

[Jesse Cloud]

My philosophy on home depot lumber and sheet goods is 'fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me.'

Its ok for utility cabinets that will be painted and can have a few flaws, but you're just wasting time and money if you try to use it for fine furniture.

One of the mistakes I made when I was a brand new woodworker was to buy cheap materials and cheap tools. For some reason, my projects never came out just right. Amazing how much difference good wood and well made tools make.:p

BTW, I don't mean to pick on HD, the other big boxes are selling pretty much the same thing.

[Al Willits]

Thanks all, the sheets at HD looked good enough for cabinets and I do need projects to learn on.

What's the "Borg" I'm figuring it ain't some humongous space ship filled with loonies in this case...???

I then have a question, if the "good" stuff is generally over a $100 a sheet is it used all that much with furniture??
Seems like it's getting close to standard lumber in some cases?

Not looking for cheap lumber, looking for good lumber cheap....:)

Seems like our local woodcraft store has Cherry at under $3 bf, I have convinced the wife we need new end tables, and a coffee like table to put the 50" TV on...even convinced her to pay for part of it....but I'm worried what else she may want...:)
Now just to come up with plans, she says plain and simple....and at my state of wood working skills, that makes me happy..

Any suggestions for a plain and simple set? :)

Al who thinks using milk crates for the TV was fine 40 years ago, but would like to upgrade now..:D

[Jamie Buxton]

At my local Home Depots, plywood is never flat. I don't know if it is manufactured badly, or if it is HD's bad storage habits. They put the plywood on horizontal racks with three arms, and the three arms are never in line. I can tolerate some twist and curve in my plywood, but HD's stuff is way beyond my tolerance. I get mine from a real lumberyard at prices which are only a little more than HD's.


Life's too short to be working with lousy materials.

[Mike Cutler]

Al.

A few years back I bought about 6 sheets of the maple ply at the 'Borg. It was gorgeous stuff, and cheap. The figure and grain were very pleasing. Everything that I made with that ply, with the exception of my CMS cart, has been recycled into other things, or sent to the dump.

It was dimensionally very unstable, even when finished. It had a wicked tendency to bow in between supports on flat surfaces, ie.. router tables, otfeed tables etc.

As I remember, it was about $28 a sheet. $28 x6= $168 buck sent to the trash at some later date.

In my opinion. Pass on it for furniture that you want to invest a lot of time and effort into.

If you just want to make some "shop cabinets", and learn. It would be good for that. Make sure that you finish both sides though, and use frame panel construction to help keep it flat, or stable.

[Bob Childress]

That's the BORG. But is could also be the BBRG (Big Blue Retail Giant):D

[John Stevens]

Al, I've used the "top of the line" baltic birch plywood in the past, but that was when I briefly got into woodworking in the '80s. Now I'm a beginner for the second time, and I recently made some CD storage cabinets. For the first two, I was mainly concerned with learning the construction techniques, so I bought the maple-veneered ply from HD.

As I cut the HD plywood, I found a small number of tiny voids, but that was it. I also thought the HD ply had really nice grain. The two prototypes I made did not--and still do not--exhibit any signs of warp. I think that's pretty impressive because the cabinets are roughly 9" wide by 9" deep by 5 feet tall, so there is plenty of room for warpage to take place!

I was so pleased with the HD ply in the prototypes that I used it to build the final versions. I went through the stack to select grain patterns that had were interesting, and I cut the sheets so that the grain patterns on adjacent faces would repeat. I applied shellac over oil for the finish, and the grain came out with a nice depth. The result: my wife really likes how the final versions turned out, as do our neighbors and guests. Everyone is very surprised to learn that they're made from plywood. (I mitered the corners so that no edge banding shows on the fronts and sides.)

So I'm now completing an audio cabinet from HD ply with some solid wood, and I'm working on plans for a TV-DVD cabinet to be made from HD ply with solid wood drawer faces. I'm completely sold on the stuff.

I do have to admit one problem, though. When I built the finished versions of the CD cabinets, I applied shellac to the insides of the pieces before assembly. I didn't apply shellac or any other finish to the outsides at that time. Then the wood sat in my damp basement for a week until I had time to resume woodworking. The carcases did not warp even one millimeter. The doors, however, did warp a small amount, about 1/8" over 55 inches. I think it's worth pointing out that the doors on the prototypes are still straight and true, so I think this shows that the warpage is not due to the quality of the plywood, but due to my mistake of applying finish to only one side of the door and then leaving the door in a damp area.

I want to make new doors as soon as I'm finished the next project, but my wife says the warp is so unnoticeable that I'd just be making work for myself.

[Tyler Howell]

Hey Tyler, where is a store for Al??

Young Bloods for hard woods ply I order marine grade from a co worker. PM me I'll give you his name.
PS Bring$$$$

[tod evans]

One of the mistakes I made when I was a brand new woodworker was to buy cheap materials and cheap tools. For some reason, my projects never came out just right. Amazing how much difference good wood and well made tools make.:p

.

wise words jesse! .02 tod

[Al Willits]

Lots of info, thanks all, btw I work in the HVAC/appliance repair field and have about 30 years in so far, if I can ever try to help anybody, just PM me.
Be nice to be able to help instead of asking questions all the time.:D

Tyler, I PM'd you, thanks also.

So much to learn, so much sawdust to make....

Al

[Per Swenson]

Hello All,

Generally the big box plywood is not suitable for much.

Plywood is also seasonal ,regional and purchased by a

buyer looking at a pricepoint spread sheet and not

concerned with quality further then the rated stamp.

This being said, sometimes bargins can be had here.

Due to the enormous turn over you simply never know

what could show up on the shelves, (sometimes GP makes a boo boo)

,Occasionally the buyer gets a drop shipment of

the chinese plywood and this shows up as a stack of 3/4 that sells out

in a weekend for $19.99 a sheet. 24 drafts on a trailer gone in a weekend.

Trust me this ply is not going to the home owner or home craftsman.

It is just fine for Commercial carcass's.

Bottom line, would I use any of it for a piece for Grand Ma? Nope.

I will use it on Rich and Sally Volvo's kitchen though.

If I didn't we would starve. (not really)

Note, there have been times at my local creepo

where both the 1/2 oak and the 1/4 birch where so nice

we just had to load up the truck.

My apologies in advance to any couple with the above name.

Per

[Jim Becker]

That's the BORG. But is could also be the BBRG (Big Blue Retail Giant):D

"Big Old/Ornery Retail Giant" covers all colors... ;)

[glenn bradley]

I'll chime in with Jamie but I'm sure this varies by region. At the local "real" lumber yard, birch veneer is only about $12 more a sheet than "the best they got" regular plywood at the borg. Knotty pine, maple and such run higher. On the other hand, if you watch or ask for shipment dates you can pick up some decent arauco plywood before they've had a chance to "store" it to death. Good for shop cabinets and prototypes.

[Al Willits]

Beginning to see a, "use whatever you can, buyer beware, but its cheaper... but for the stuff your gonna show pictures, of or keep the wife/inlaws happy, get the good stuff, kinda trend here.

That made sense when I typed it, but not so sure now...:confused:

Anyway, I'll look for a good shipment at HD or Menards for cabinets for the garage and have to figure out where to get the good stuff when I need it.

Thanks

Al

[Jesse Cloud]

Al,
To get some decent plywood, find a lumberyard that sells to the cabinet making shops. I'm sure there are some good ones in Minneapolis. Maybe drop by a cabinet shop and ask where they buy. When you find a good yard, talk to them about your project. Most carry a good range of ply in terms of species, number of layers of veneer, etc with a range in price. Lumber is expensive out here in the desert, but I can usually get good birch or maple ply thats flat with very few voids for about $50-60 a sheet. When you figure in the amount of waste from voids and other flaws from BORG lumber, the price is about the same.

Also ask about discounts. Many yards offer a wide range of discounts to commercial accounts, members of woodworking clubs, etc. Can't hurt to ask.

By the way, you may regret the offer of free appliance advice...:rolleyes:

[Bart Leetch]

Beginning to see a, "use whatever you can, buyer beware, but its cheaper... but for the stuff your gonna show pictures, of or keep the wife/inlaws happy, get the good stuff, kinda trend here.

That made sense when I typed it, but not so sure now...:confused:

Anyway, I'll look for a good shipment at HD or Menards for cabinets for the garage and have to figure out where to get the good stuff when I need it.

Thanks

Al


Hi Al

My best friends name is Carey Willits & his business card says "Where there's Willits there's a way.

[Scott Coffelt]

This is my take, if the plywood is going to be exposed, then it ain't coming from HD or any other big box. Anytime I use plywood for a piece it will be purchased from a better selection. Reasoning on this is many mentioned also the fact the top layer is much thicker on better quality ply in the case I need to hit it with a sander. Just sitting the sander on the ply from HD will sand through the top layer its that thin.

[Lee Schierer]

I then have a question, if the "good" stuff is generally over a $100 a sheet is it used all that much with furniture??
Seems like it's getting close to standard lumber in some cases?

Seems like our local woodcraft store has Cherry at under $3 bf, I have convinced the wife we need new end tables,


I find that on most cabinets, I can buy 1 X 5 or 1 X 6 lumber finished on four sides and glue up solid panels cheaper than buying a sheet of plywood. While you do have to contend with the expansion/contraction issues with solid wood. It will affect the cost of making things using plywood at $50+ per sheet and only getting 60-70% yield from the plywood.

Our local Blue Borg has 3/4 Luan plywood that looks like birch (slighly more grain and texture to the wood), but the sheet I just used in a vanity I'm making had only one very small void that I found. The veneer layer is really thin so you have to be careful about sanding things. It was $38 per 4 X 8 sheet. I've had no problems with warping, bowing, cupping or anyother undesireable wood movement. I was able to get 95% yield with the layout program I have and the parts that I nneded. All the exposed wood is going to be maple.

[Terry Flowers]

I recently built a corner entertainment center using Oak plywood sides and shelves. I avoided the Borg and bought from a plywood specialty house. Because the sides were against two 90 degree walls and would only show inside the only shelf not covered by doors or the big screen, I opted for shop grade. The veneers actually looked quite good. Well, the panels were unbelievably warped, complicating construction, and actually delaminated in places. Even though it was shop grade, it should have at least held together. One shelf was very wavy along the front, but I was able to hide it with the wide banding I used on the front edge. So much for buying at a specialty store. The did make it good by refunding the cost of 2 panels and didn't ask for them to be returned.

The furniture grade ply was about $35 a sheet more. Assuming I would have avoided all the problems, I would gladly have paid it.

Terry

[James Carmichael]

and this advice is free:-)

FWIW, the 3/4" birch ply I see in the HDs around here is imported 18mm, a bit thinner than the traditional 23/32. A dado cut with a 23/32" plywood router bit is too big.

I've they stock 2 grades: "stain" grade for around $40 per sheet and "paint" grade with knotty face veneers for about $10 less.

[Mike Parzych]

Hi Al...

A cheesehead from across the St. Croix here. I'd second Youngbloods as the best source for ply. You mentioned you were relatively new at this, so I don't know if you know the difference between rotary cut and plain sliced.

Rotary cut displays a repetitive pattern to the grain on one sheet. The veneer is sliced off a rotating log, so you see the same patterns evolved. There are quality differences within this category - for instance smaller veneer logs will show a close repeating pattern - not very attractive for furniture applications. Larger logs will have less repetition on one sheet. Stuff at Menards makes me dizzy looking at it cuz it's so repetitive.

Plain sliced is sliced flat off a log and usually looks better. The best plain sliced stuff has the best appearance for furniture.

If you go to Youngbloods

http://www.youngbloodlumber.com/index.html

you'll see the stuff marked rotary or plain.

Walk through the lumber bldg and you'll be amazed at the stuff they've got - thicknesses up to at least 12/4 on hardwoods. Price wise they're about as good as it gets.

[John Stevens]

Just sitting the sander on the ply from HD will sand through the top layer its that thin.

Well, I guess HD ply must vary a lot, because that's never happened to any of the HD ply I've bought, even when starting from 120 (to remove the nap left after removing tape) and going through 180.

[Al Willits]

Suffering from information overload here...:)

OK, sounds like youngbloods for plywood too, if I build a set of cabinets for the garage and they warp, I'm not gonna be to happy, and you know who is gonna think I wasted money .. again.

I've printed this whole topic out and will go in the garage as a reminder, thanks.

I will have to figure out what a Frame Pannel Construction is though.

I also have the pleasure of meeting both Tyler and Rick this coming Sunday, and am gonna have to refraint from asking to many questions.

Ya all have a great weekend and hopefully someday I'll have a picture of something to post.. :)

Al

[Howard Acheson]

Plywood is graded by adhesive (interior and exterior) and by the appearence of the face plies. The top grade plies are "A" grade. A top quality furniture plywood will be AA or AB. The standard allows voids of minimal width in interior plies. For top quality furniture grade hardwood plywood, you can also specific book match or other configurations of the face ply. These top quality furniture grade plywoods are only available from wood specialists.

Plywood stocked at the big boxes are typically BC face grades or maybe even BD. Voids in the interior plies are allowed so the fact that they have voids is not an indication of a defect. The face plies are not intended for clear coating. It is a paint grade plywood. That's not to say that you can't get some nice stuff if you pick through the stock. Remember, the big boxes are primarily selling to contractors or weekend DIY remodelers. The do not see their customers as furniture woodworkers.

So, is big box plywood--and all big box wood for that matter--of a lesser grade than furniture quality? Yes, deliberatey so. They are not selling top grade but neither do they claim they are. All their plywood is grade stamped and they will tell you the grade of their solid wood stock.

[Art Davis]

Second Al's question---what does Borg stand for? I'm guessing it's an acronym. If it's not clean enough for posting, how about pm'ing us?

[Don Baer]

Second Al's question---what does Borg stand for? I'm guessing it's an acronym. If it's not clean enough for posting, how about pm'ing us?

Art,
Jim explained it in Post #16 of this thread.

[JayStPeter]

Personally, I've had mixed results with both Borg and more expensive plywoods. I've gotten beautiful sheets of Birch and Maple at the Borgs with minimal voids. I've also gotten void laden junk there.
I've gotten beautiful bookmatched cherry ply for 4x the price that was perfect. I've also gotten expensive bookmatched cherry ply where the outer veneer was super thin, the underlying wood was so soft that my breath would cause a ding, and the middle layers were delaminating.
I don't think it's a Borg vs. others thing. IMO, buying plywood is equally frustrating of a learning experience as rough lumber.

Jay

[Bruce Benjamin]

Second Al's question---what does Borg stand for? I'm guessing it's an acronym. If it's not clean enough for posting, how about pm'ing us?

The, "Borg" were a group of aliens on the TV show, "Star Trek, The Next Generation". They flew around the galaxy in huge cube shaped space ships conquering every race they came across and assimilating them into their way of doing business. See the comparison to Home Depot and other, "Big Box Stores"? They spring up around the country in huge cube-shaped stores wiping out all other weaker stores. The common phrase that the Borg would repeat to all of their victims was, "Resistance is futile."

Bruce

[Howard Acheson]

The, "Borg" were a group of aliens on the TV show, "Star Trek, The Next Generation". They flew around the galaxy in huge cube shaped space ships conquering every race they came across and assimilating them into their way of doing business. See the comparison to Home Depot and other, "Big Box Stores"? They spring up around the country in huge cube-shaped stores wiping out all other weaker stores. The common phrase that the Borg would repeat to all of their victims was, "Resistance is futile."

Bruce

Yes Bruce, that is what I understood was the reference to "BORG".

[Howard Acheson]

Here is a good source of information on the various types of Sheet Goods (http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/477.xml&catref=wd22).

[Aaron Beaver]

In some cases is it better to buy lumber glue it together instead of cutting it from ply that may be good or bad. Price wise is what I mean.

[Chip Olson]

What's the "Borg" I'm figuring it ain't some humongous space ship filled with loonies in this case...???

That's actually one of the better descriptions of Home Depot I've heard.

I'm using HD maple-faced playwood for my kitchen cabinet carcasses, and I'm reasonably happy with it. The face veneer is about a nanometer thick, though, so it can get worn through by overenthusiastic use of an ordinary pencil eraser.

[Al Willits]

Well, interesting day, managed to get 35 bf of Brazillion cherry for $2.99 bf at woodcraft and found some pretty nice pieces to play with, may have to get a bit more.

So far so good, then off to Youngbloods lumber to pick up sheets of plywood, lumber yard has no prices on its plywood so I asked the yardguy and he said $45 a 3/4x4x8 sheet, loaded 5 sheets of 3/4 and a sheet of 1/4" 4x8 and went up to pay for it, went down hill from there.
Bill sounded way more than I figured, counter guy told me the "shop" grade plywood was $65 a sheet.

If it'd been one or two sheets I'd a bit the bullet, but I had 6 of them and makes them garage cabinets more money than I can buy them for, so I unloaded them and will probably end up at another lumber yard or the Borg....:eek:
Wasn't to fond of the yardguy not knowing the actual cost, I'll be looking for another lumber yard I think.

Have to admit, I know a lot more about plywood than I did a couple of days ago..:D :D

Did order the JDS Dustforce from woodcraft though, so the wife is happy and had a nice long talk with the manager there about Dovetail jigs and I'm more confused about them than ever...seems its hard to find a simple jigs that does all and is adjustable and not spend over $400 and still there not to simple to use. :confused:

So all in all, a ok day and a learning exprience, not to bad I'd say.

Al

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Using those two in a sentence evokes the oxymoron clause. For paint grade cabinets, you can get away with it, but never for stain grade work.

[Mark Ebert]

The, "Borg" were a group of aliens on the TV show, "Star Trek, The Next Generation". They flew around the galaxy in huge cube shaped space ships conquering every race they came across and assimilating them into their way of doing business. See the comparison to Home Depot and other, "Big Box Stores"? They spring up around the country in huge cube-shaped stores wiping out all other weaker stores. The common phrase that the Borg would repeat to all of their victims was, "Resistance is futile."

Bruce

"Big Orange Retail Giant" as such for Home Depot...

[Al Willits]

Using those two in a sentence evokes the oxymoron clause. For paint grade cabinets, you can get away with it, but never for stain grade work.


Well, stained cabinets might be nice, but I'd planed on painting them white maybe anyway, and at $25 more a sheet, I'm definitely gonna use the cheaper sheets and paint them white.
Considering I'll probably use 8 or 10 sheets totaly and that's $200-250 extra, and I can use that for other things, like tools to put in them cabinets...:) (also have a miter saw and planer cabinet to make along with wall cabinets)
I'll pass on the good stuff, at least for the garage.
In the house is a different story...:)

Al