60 mortise and tenon joints = new power tool?

[Andy Fox]

I'm making a cradle and have (60) :eek: 3/8" wide blind mortises to cut in cherry for the railing spindles. That's not counting the other larger mortises on the project. I've already drilled all 60 with a 3/8" forstner. It seems like it's taking me way too long to chisel the mortises square by hand! I did 3 so far, averaging about 1 mortise in 15 minutes.

Do I need to sharpen up my chisels (probably not the sharpest), improve my technique (admittedly lacking), figure out how to make round tenons, or buy a benchtop mortising machine? :confused: The machine sounds attractive, as I will probably use it on every project. I hate to spend the money and shortchange myself on hand tool skills, but I just don't have much time. What would you do?

[Jesse Cloud]

who would be happy to let you spend an hour on his mortiser to do the 60 moritses. If not, and you have a router, just make a template for the mortise and go to town.
If you had the time, 60 mortises would certainly sharpen up your hand tool skills!

[Dave Richards]

Andy, I think the router thing is the ticket. Either that or change the design. That's what I did for the cradle I built. ;)

[Mike Cutler]

Do I need to sharpen up my chisels (probably not the sharpest), improve my technique (admittedly lacking), figure out how to make round tenons, or buy a benchtop mortising machine? :confused: The machine sounds attractive, as I will probably use it on every project. I hate to spend the money and shortchange myself on hand tool skills, but I just don't have much time. What would you do?

Andy. You need to do all of the above. Maybe not on this project though.

I have a Delta 14-651. It's a nice mortiser, but if I had to buy a benchtop over again I would buy the General model with the tilting head. If I were to really do it again I would get the Powermatic Floor standing model with the tilting head.
In case your curious as to why I want the tilting head. I prefer the Arts& crafts style. A lot of the mortises are done at angles. Something to consider possibly.

I had close to 600 M&T to do on two seperate projects, so I can feel your pain.
Personally I would go for the Powermatic if you have the space, and the General if you don't.

[David Eisenhauer]

I'd use a router with loose tenons - just as strong and lots easier to jig up for. Best of luck.

[Larry Fox]

If it the type of mortise that I am thinking of, instead of doing all 60 as individual mortises couldn't you;

1) Cut a groove 3/8 wide by however deep you need down the entire length.
2) Make what amounts to a 3/8" wide dental strip with the desired splacing and lay it into the slot you made in step 1.
3) Plane and sand flush and that should get you what you need.

Just a thought.

[Andy Fox]

I guess I'm already halfway down the "router road," since I've already drilled all the mortises with a forstner? What's the secret to making round tenons on the ends of 3/4" square spindles? Some kind of router jig? It seems like a loose tenon might be challenging due the small size of the spindles.

[Todd Burch]

Andy, this is an opportunity to get proficient with chisels and sharpening. First, sharpen your chisels. If they can't cut paper or the hair on your arm when you are done, you are not done.

Then, don't be afraid to hit them with a stiff hammer. If the wood is crushing, they aren't sharp enough.

By the time you finished all 60, I suspect you'll be at less than a minute per hole. After that, you would be a good bet in any mortising competition.

Todd

[Todd Burch]

On another thought, sure, new tools are fun, but a deft hand will out impress anyone, anytime, anywhere.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

As a hand tool user, the one power tool I think I'd use most would be a benchtop mortiser, and I'd get the one with the tilting head like Mike suggests. I personally am not a router fan, though I do own one.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

60 isn't that large a number. Sharpen the chisels and take your time.

A marginally decent bench mortiser will run you a about 3 bills for a cheap one and a grand or more for a better heavier floor model. Commercial machines are way more yet still.

If you really think you'd like a mortiser and don't want to lay out the $$ for a good one then make one.

You can build a very (I mean VERY) heavy duty slot mortiser with a few purchased items. You'll need an X-Y milling table and a router. The rest is 1/2" and 3/4" bolts, some threaded rod 3/8-16 and some extra heavy angle iron, and a piece of aluminum (or steel) sheet stock 1/8" or 3/16" thick for the router plate. If you have a welder it'll be easier still.

The tools you'll need in include drills & taps from 1/4-20 to 3/8-16 a drill press and a hand drill.
when you are done you'll have pulled the dials and lead screws off the milling table and installed lever arms to make it go faster. You'll have threaded rod as stops, make you own clamps, and hand levers made from scrap lumber.

Total investment
$100 for the table (average Flea bay price)
$50.00 for the steel
$15.00 nuts and bolts
----------------------------
$165 - $170 tops (sans router)

Quite concievably this can all be done in maple and oak instead of buying angle iron.

[Scott Vigder]

I bought the General mortiser last year and have never ever regretted using it's sharp chisels to bang out the 102 mortises I had to cut on my mission style desk. I've used it on virtually every furniture peice built this year (desk, Kitchen table & chair set, ottoman, Morris chair). I can't calculate the time it has saved me this past year, but if I pay myself a modest $25/hr I am sure I have paid for the machine several times over by now. And I must admit it is one of the funner tools to use. Is funner a word?

[Vaughn McMillan]

Personally, I'd vote for the mortising machine if you've got any more projects in the future that could benefit from it (in addition to your current project). I've got the Shop Fox benchtop model, and to echo Scott's comment...its a fun tool to use. Yes, I could cut mortises with a router but it's louder and causes much more fine dust. I considered the General with the tilting head, but it was beyond the reach of my budget.

Whichever way you go, it sounds like it's time to get the chisels sharp, too. The Scary Sharp method is inexpensive, fast and easy. ;)

- Vaughn

[Alan DuBoff]

15 minutes per mortise isn't too bad, you should be able to get them down to 5-10 minutes by the time you're finished. :D

Even so, that's a days worth of work (12 hours;-) to complete all of them.

Some people don't enjoy cutting joinery by hand, but I do. ;)

[Jerry Olexa]

I think the plunge router with a jig would be ideal for this situation (esp the round hole). I now have a benchtop mortiser which would also work w less setup time...Just my opinion:p

[Burt Waddell]

Andy,

Check out this link http://eurekazone.com/gallery/EZ-Mortise-tenons-with-limit-stops

This only one of the many things that the EZ Smart can do and do well.



http://eurekazone.com/albums/EZ-Mortise-tenons-with-limit-stops/SRK_CNC_035.sized.jpg

[CPeter James]

A cheap way out is a mortising attachment for the drill press. That is what I have and what I use and it works fine. As well as the under $300 dedicated units. Takes about half hour or so to set up( maybe less). they can be had from Delta or Jet for $50 if you look around. Might even include some chisels at that price.

CPeter

[Andy Fox]

No thanks Burt, I want to make M&T joints, not funky-looking 2x6's. :D Seriously, thanks for the info.

[Allen Bookout]

You can build a very (I mean VERY) heavy duty slot mortiser with a few purchased items.
Cliff,

Where do you get the plans or instructions for this project?

Allen

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I like cutting everything but the mortises by hand. :)

Drilling them out first makes it easier, though.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hi Andy. 15 mins per mortise seems awfully slow. On the G+G desk that I recently made I think my mortises [drilled first] took me about 1 minute each if that. The problem with a 3/8 x 3/8 mortise is cleaning out the bottom. The simple solution to that is just drill the mortise deeper so there is somewhere for the waste to go. One whack on each of the cross grain sides and then probably just pare down the long grain side and you are done. Alternatively you could just route a groove the length of the rail as deep as you want your mortise and then make a strip to fit snugly in it. Now just set up a jig to crosscut this strip into pieces, install a spindle put in a strip, install a spindle put in a strip. Peter

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff,Where do you get the plans or instructions for this project? Allen
Hey Allen, I don't have plans, I never seem to have any plans. I made it up as I wen't along. The idea occurred to over time as I really wanted a slot mortiser and wasn't ready to pony up for one. While searching Flea Bay for some Thomson linear slides I stumbled across a few milling tables. One guy had 'em for sale for $90.00 new fixed price. So I bought one. The rest was just angle iron. the whole support frame is 4 pieces of really heavy angle iron and some scrap 1/8" steel sheet stock.

There's two horizontal pieces of angle bolted to the flange of the milling table sticking out in the rear of the table by some amount (I settled on 6" for no particular reason). The distance between them is a function of the milling table's bolt down slots.

To those two horizontal pieces & behing the table I attached two more sticking up at a right angle from the table . The length of those two uprights is a function of the size of the router plate I wanted to attach. I made mine a tad bigger than necessary. Oh Well.

To the uprights (spanning them) is attached a slab of 1/8" alum sheet stock (any router plate material will do). I installed slotted holes for the router plate screw mounts and the router collet so I could change the height off the table by sliding the router up and down.

That was it. I ran the thing a few times and decided that those little crank handles on the milling table were going to kill me so I yanked 'em and made up some X*Y slider handles like you see on most slot mortisers.

The milling table got a few holes drilled & tapped for lube nipples and the handle mounts. It was all cut and try as I went along. Other little mods got added as I realized I needed 'em like an table limit stops a stop for locating the stock and a fixed fence.

As to how precise I had to be to make it: Not at all. Most of my hole locations were laid out using nothing more than a Machinist's combination square. The ones that weren't laid out with the square were located by "eye."

All of the machine's precision and repeatability is entirely subsequent to the milling table and the weight and size of the angle iron & large bolts to take a lot of torque.

I really should take some pix of it and post 'em. The thing is not beautiful but is is very functional and sturdy.

I can set it up and wail away making perfectly repeatable mortices over and over.

I haven't yet built it's home. It's really deserves a nice stand with drawers.

[Paul Canaris]

If you will continue to do furniture that requires a lot of M&T (i.e. Arts and Crafts) among others I would get a mortiser of some sort.

I have had several types over the years and they have all been great to have.

[Mark Hollingsworth]

Andy, 2 years ago, my oldest son and I built a crib for my grandaughter and I used the project to justify buying a Shop Fox bench mortiser. It worked like a charm plus I now have a mortiser. But then I have used this reasoning process many times when theres a tool I want. Thats the way us toolaholics operate you know. Tools--Mans best friend!

[Andy Fox]

Thanks for the many ideas and different approaches.

I'm going to hone the chisel tonight and give it one more try. My local woodworking power tool supplier is close by and open late on Thursday to bail me out before the weekend if things don't go well. :)

[Scott Vigder]

Hey Allen, I don't have plans, I never seem to have any plans. I made it up as I wen't along.

This, folks, is what it's all about.

[Andy Fox]

Last night I sharpened up the chisel on a waterstone so that it cuts paper as good as a razor blade. Using upper body weight only on the chisel, I was able to square up about 10 of the 3/8" round holes in 45 minutes with a moderate amount of effort. A mallet would've made things easier, but the kid was asleep. Definitely a lot quieter than a power tool, and this is a reasonable amount of time and effort.

But, I still have a about 10 longer mortises left to go on the project once these small ones are done. With a mortiser, the same effort to drill out the round holes on a drill press would've put me done with the mortise entirely instead of just 1/2 done. And this being a cradle and the baby due soon, I'm working on a deadline that I can't push back! :)

I'll probably get the Shop Fox if it's in stock, but I'll check out the Delta too.

[Allen Bookout]

Andy,

I do not have a mortiser but I remember a magazine test a few months back when I was thinking about getting one and they chose the General as number one but somewhat expensive and the Woodtec as just about as good for quite a bit less. Both were well ahead of the Delta and Shop Fox. I know that some do not put any faith in test but this one seemed fairly extensive.

The Woodtec is sold by Woodworker's Supply.

As I said, I have no experience with mortisers, so this is just something that you might want to look into if you are interested.

Good Hunting!

Allen

[Vaughn McMillan]

...With a mortiser, the same effort to drill out the round holes on a drill press would've put me done with the mortise entirely instead of just 1/2 done. And this being a cradle and the baby due soon, I'm working on a deadline that I can't push back! :)

I'll probably get the Shop Fox if it's in stock, but I'll check out the Delta too.
Do keep in mind that with a square chisel mortiser, you'll still have a little bit of "clean-up" to do by hand to the mortises after the machine work is done. Now that you've got your hand chisels nice and sharp, the clean-up work will take just a few seconds per mortise, though.

As I mentioned earlier, I've got the Shop Fox, and I've been real happy with it. With a name like yours, I don't see how you couldn't like it. ;) (Now if your name was Andy Delta...different story.)

- Vaughn

[Dewayne Baker]

I recently did a cradle too. I made a jig with a 1/2" wide slot that receives a guide bushing to rout the slots. Then round over the tenons to fit.

Since then I have made this jig to make mortises easier and faster.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1115451/RCMCK-Multirouterjig002.jpg

[Allen Bookout]

Andy,

I am sure that you have done whatever that you decided to do by now but here is something interesting:

http://www.plansnow.com/dn3081.html

I do not know when I will be able to give it a try but I did purchase the plans to give it a shot-----sometime. I am a sucker for these kinds of things. Some have really worked out great.

If you sign up for their e-mail adds they will give you a code each time to get 20 percent off. Sucker for that also I suppose but better than paying the full advertised price.

Allen

[Marc Ward]

a deft hand will out impress anyone, anytime, anywhere.

That is what I told my wife. :D

[Andy Fox]

As I mentioned earlier, I've got the Shop Fox, and I've been real happy with it. With a name like yours, I don't see how you couldn't like it. ;) (Now if your name was Andy Delta...different story.)

Vaughn, thanks for the reminder about the clean-up. I got the Shop Fox, now I'm not the only Fox in my shop. :rolleyes: ......I think I'll take that for a family nickname, given that I spend so much time in my shop. "There's the Shop Fox, we never see him much anymore since he's got that big cradle deadline coming up."

It works great, although it was a little tricky at first to stop it from burning the cherry at the high RPM. The trick is to both bore and retract and quickly as possible, and make sure the bit isn't sticking out the bottom quite as much as the picture in the manual shows.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Since then I have made this jig to make mortises easier and faster.

That one is way prettier than mine.

It's amazing how many ways there are to skin any given cat.

Poor cat, all those skinners and only nine lives.