General Laser Engraver Questions

[Dan Rasmussen]

Hello All,

I am new to Sawmill Creek and not really a woodworker but you guys really seem to know your lasers over here so I figured I would ask here to see if you can help me.

I am in the market for a laser engraver primarily to cut matte board and masonite (sorry about that to those fine wood workers out there). I have been considering Epliog, VersaLaser, and GCC. I have had demos on the Versalaser and the Epliog. I also got a demo on a used laserpor mercury.

I was very impressed with both the Epliog and Versalaser. The 25 Watt Versalaser cut the quarter inch masonite nicely in two passes. The 45 Watt Epilog cut it in one pass at 90% power and 15% speed. The Epliog also cut thinner, tempered, masonite in a single pass at 60% power. Besides time, is there anything I need to worry about if I have to make two passes to cut through the material?

Now on to the Laserpro Mercury. This was supposed to be a 60 watt model but it could not cut through the tempered masonite until the owner put it at 100% power and 1.5% speed. Something doesn't seem right here. It is supposed to be 3 years old, could the tube be on the way out or is it more likely not really a 60 Watt tube. If the tube is dying, how much is it to get it reconditioned/replaced? I have looked all over the internet and actually asked for a quote from a large pinnacle dealer but I still have no answer or quote. Does anyone know what brand of tube goes in this machine, if its user replacable (I some good electronics repair experience, including Ham radio alignment and repair, video monitor repair, etc.). Can a service guide be had for this machine?

Finally, I am also considering a used Pinnacle Accuris laser but it would be a long distance buy. Does anyone on this forum have any experience with the Accuris line? When I look at the specs on it, there is an aserisk by the power rating with little explanation of what it means. For a 30W rating, I'm not sure if it means that I can expect better than standard 30W performance out of the machine or that the performance stated is virtual 30W performance extracted from a less than 30W tube.

Finally, besides the matte board and masonite, I am also interested in other possible sources of revenue from this equipment (this will be a side business). I am interested in engraving marble/granite/tile. Are there certain power needs to do this job? Can it be done with a 30W laser?

On the Eplig vs Versalaser, the Epilog is coming out a couple of thousand more but for a 35W tube vs a 30W tube. Is it worth the extra?

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Dan Rasmussen

[Mike Mackenzie]

Dan,

You should be able to cut the 1/4 inch Masonite with the Versa using AIR assist in one pass. 35 watts would do it more efficiently as with most laser-able products.

Laser engraving granite and marble do not require laser power to engrave you are just marking the surface.

I am not totally 100% sure on the laser tube in the Mercury but my guess is that it is a Synrad source.

You can check with the person who is selling the system they should have records of what tube is being used.

If it is a Synrad you can go here and see if they will give you a price for re charge / Repair http://www.synrad.com/

If you are close by this system and have a C02 power meter or know someone who does you can check the power of the tube for yourself it could be that there were just bad optics which would make it look like the tube was bad or even alignment issues.

[Joe Pelonio]

A machine can act like it's weak just from dirty mirrors/lenses. Still, it could be that the tube is on the way out. Buying a tube from the tube manufacturer may not always work, if the laser maker has added some proprietary parts to it, and will probably cause problems in getting support. I know the last time I checked the tube for my 45W Epilog was $2,300 from Epilog. The seller may have thought it was 60 watts but doesn't really know, I'd ask them for settings to cut 1/4" acrylic, and whether it's
changed since they bought it. At 100% power and 1.5 speed my 45 watt
can cut 3/8".

I recommend the most power you can afford, at some point you'll get a good job that could take twice as long with less power. You'll wish you'd gotten more wattage and that job alone might have paid for the difference.

[Hilton Lister]

My mercury is only 25 watts, but will cut 1/4" watt acrylic at 100% power and 1% speed

[Rodne Gold]

Speed of one machine vs another cannot be directly compared in %. You need to compare cycle time to cycle time. Lots of things can influence cut capability , the lens used , the beam quality , ramping issues , dirty optics , underpowered tube , dirty lens , air assist. bad focus and so forth.
As I say , compare cycle times and edge quality rather than setting numbers.
For masonite , the PPI of the mercury should be set to about 400 or so , it should cut 3mm cast acrylic (1/8th) at a speed of 4%+ at all points on the table. (a 25 w will cut at 2% and a 25 W explorer will only cut at 1% - but the explorers speed is double the Mercurys)
A mercury is a real simple machine mechanically and not difficult to fix , but laser tubes are something you cant DIY fix. A synrad source will generally blow a RF board and go to 1/2 power and then die completely , if the power has not dropped to 50% its likely that something other then the tube is causing it.
Personally , unless a 2nd hand machine is a total bargain or has a guranteed refurb , I would not buy one. New GCC machines have an 18 month tube warrantee and a 3 yr machine warrantee AFAIK.

[Hale Reider]

I have cut 1/4" masonite on 40 watt machine without to many problems. It smokes a lot and leaves a charred edge, but it is manageable.

While researching lasers last few months, it seems that both LaserPro and the Sign Warehouse Accuris are using only Synrad tubes at this time. I was told that Synrad tubes last longer and have last repair issues. Sign Warehouse is supposedly importing the Accuris cabinet and then assembling them here. Another company in Taiwan builds also builds a laser using same cabinet. Accuris is stepping motors.

I opted for an Epilog Legend EXT36 because of banding problems I had with my other laser using the Synrad tube. Epilog is still using the Coherent Deos tube.

Hale Reider

[Dean Flannery]

I opted for an Epilog Legend EXT36 because of banding problems I had with my other laser using the Synrad tube. Epilog is still using the Coherent Deos tube.
Hale Reider

Regarding banding problem, I bought a old Epilog Summit @ 4 months ago and was having banding problems, we changed the laser tube and power supply and nothing seemed to help.

Later I was trying to do a picture of the Vietnam memorial wall on 12 by12 black granite and from the left side the names were crisp and clear but @ 2-3 inches from the left the names would start to double until you got clear to the right they would be 2 separate letters, kind of like a double strike on a typewriter (if anyone remembers what a typewrite is)

After pulling my hair out for a couple of weeks trying to find the problem I noticed the traveling head seemed hard to move when cleaning the machine, I took the servo belt off and the head would move freely for about 2" and them became very hard to move. I found someone had tightened the bearings way to much, I loosened the bearings up and lightly retightened them and the problem disappeared.

I thing the servo was fighting the tight bearings and causing the head to jerk leading to the banding and poor lettering.

Dean

[Dan Rasmussen]

Table size and price were very important to me. They (SignWarehouse) gave me a good deal on the whole package (machine, vector table, additional 2.5 inch lens, compressor, blower, software). It should be here in a few weeks. Meanwhile I have some work to do to get the space ready for it.

Thanks for the help and advice. I'll let you know how it goes.

I'll post some more about this in a new thread.

Dan Rasmussen

[brenda oxenreider]

Hi Dan, Would you recommend this same machine to engrave cake pan lids? Thank you. Brenda in PA :)

[Richard Rumancik]

The % speed on the Epilog will appear to be much higher than some other machines (such as GCC) but it makes no sense to compare these numbers directly. As Rodne suggested, you need to time the actual job. The Epilog seems to use a different system for their vectoring speed.

GCC (and I believe ULS) set their maximum speed of 100% as the fastest RASTER capability. Since you can't vector anywhere near rastering speeds, the GCC and ULS typically have low vectoring speeds (less than 10%). The Epilog, on the other hand, seems to set a second vectoring maximum as the 100% level. Since this maximum vectoring speed might be 1/4 or 1/8 of the maximum raster speed, the resulting vectoring speeds are often 6x or 7x higher on a % scale. But the actual inches per second may be the same. i.e. Speed 18% on an Epilog may be only Speed 3% on a GCC or ULS.

Personally, I like Epilog's method better, but the net result of the systems manufacturers not agreeing on a standard system means wildly different settings for similar equipment. So if I had my way, everybody would work in ips (or the metric equivalent) and get rid of this % speed parameter.

To compare two different lasers you need to find the threshold settings for the laser/material and time the job.

[Richard Rumancik]

. . .A mercury is a real simple machine mechanically and not difficult to fix , but laser tubes are something you cant DIY fix. A synrad source will generally blow a RF board and go to 1/2 power and then die completely , if the power has not dropped to 50% its likely that something other then the tube is causing it.

Part of the reason that the older Mercurys blew the RF boards was because the power supply voltage was not always matched to the laser tube. Synrad used to mark their lasers as "30-32V" which caused a lot of confusion to some OEMs. The lasers would be able to operate between these limits, but you were supposed to run the tube at the same voltage that it was "tuned". Thus a laser tube tuned at 30V and operated at 32V caused more stress on the RF board. Synrad did make improvements to the RF board to make them more immune to this error (my guess is that this occurred around 2002-2003).

I discovered this several years ago when my Synrad tube failed and I replaced it. The new tube said 30V on the label but I was measuring 32V at the power supply. Synrad told me that I should adjust the power supply voltage down to 30V before installing the tube.

Some newer GCC tubes were (are?) being tuned (tested) at 32V, so for these, a 32V power supply is fine. If you have an old tube marked 30-32V it is not clear what the operating voltage should be, unless there is another label telling you at which voltage it was actually tuned.

See example labels attached.

[Shannon Burkitt]

Whatever you do, be extremely careful with SignWarehouse...I am presently stuck w/ an Accuris Powersharp that doesn't do what it is suppose to do. Apparently, leasing (especially w/ SignWarehouse and Beacon Funding) is a very bad idea. I would highly recommend not signing any acceptance forms until you are 100% sure the machine is operating correctly. We returned our first laser and the second laser wasn't working when we got that one either...SignWarehouse seems to be under the impression that once you buy from them, you are required to fix their machine - we ended up spending 6 months replacing parts on a new machine and it is still not fixed(hope you don't have a business that actually requires your attention). Apparently, this table does not have the workspace that is claimed...feel free to contact me, and I'll go over the whole nightmare!

[Mike Hood]

I discovered this several years ago when my Synrad tube failed and I replaced it. The new tube said 30V on the label but I was measuring 32V at the power supply. Synrad told me that I should adjust the power supply voltage down to 30V before installing the tube.


Funny... I drive right past Synrad on my way home each day (I work at Boeing just up the street a few blocks). I should stop in and ask them about some of this. I'm sure they've got some great advice about the specs and keeping these power supplies in spec.

[Mike Hood]

Table size and price were very important to me. They (SignWarehouse) gave me a good deal on the whole package (machine, vector table, additional 2.5 inch lens, compressor, blower, software). It should be here in a few weeks. Meanwhile I have some work to do to get the space ready for it.

Dan;

They're GREAT people to work with. I've had my ZX 40W since October or so and have had a blast. No maintenance issues to worry of and quick responses in every question I had.

Another example: I just bought a dye sublimation setup from them. They've given me all sorts of extras, and after an oversight in shipping the proper ink cartridges... they immediately sent me a replacement set (worth over $4000) without hesitation.

I often watch on these forums (I follow a lot of other graphics design and dye sub discussions) the eagerness for people to fret over Sign Warehouse's support, but I've had nothing but great experiences with them.

[Shannon Burkitt]

I don't think people are eager to fret over SignWarehouse and their lack of support - I think people expect a product to work and when it doesn't, tech support should be able to fix the problem as soon as possible. When there is a minor problem you may be able to get a decent response, but when they have checked off everything on their list of possible fixes they have no idea what they are doing!

[Daniel Hamilton]

I have a similar Problem with my laser i got from signwarehouse, support is lacking, and i've been calling their technical support line and sales line all week to order some parts, can anyone give me general prices on some basics from them? or where to get them? i'm looking for mirrors, red diode laser and a few other misc things