Help with a tablesaw or combo machine purchase

[Scott Thornton]

I am really finding myself in a big dilemma here.

I love woodworking, but it is a hobby. I also am the type of person who prefers to purchase higher quality materials.

With that said...I am in the market for a new tablesaw...some have led me to Grizzly, which seems fine from some standpoints, but there is a lot I don't like there...others are saying Unisaw...fine, but I don't think that's for me...

What am I leaning towards? I would really like to purchase a Rojek or Laguna tablesaw...actually would like the MiniMax, but it's twice the price...

However, after searching through this forum...I am now really considering a combo machine, but I am between a Laguna X31 and MiniMax (Lab 300N). These machines seem to have a lot of similar features, which is great for me, but they are priced quite differently.

I have a small shop, as I work out of a large 3 car garage, 750 square feet, but have two cars in there, plus lots of kids toys.

I am at a point in my woodworking, where I am looking to upgrade my current beginner tools that I have been collecting since picking up this addicting hobby a few years ago...

Please help guide me and reassure me! Also, are the list prices on these web sites the actual prices people pay or can you negotiate?

Thanks!

BTW, this is my first post here!

[tod evans]

welcome scott! i`m a fan of the minimax equipment although i don`t own a combo machine. i`ve seen them listed both here and on minimax`s chat group used if you`re looking to save some money. you can also arrange to pick up a "demo" machine at one of the shows to save a few bucks..02 tod

[Mike Cutler]

Welcome to Sawmill Creek Scott, and pleased to meet ya'

It's a fine dilema that you find yourself in. Whether to go combination, or dedicated machinery. I'm a dedicated machinery type, but that's just me.

The real question is justifying the cost of any machine, combination or not. To that I can only answer that you alone have to make that decision, but.... I have learned that I primarily work alone, as do alot of other wood workers, and I believe that the bigger, heavier (yes more expensive) machines are worth the investment. I also believe that it is safer.

The most expensive combo machine that I have seen, that could reasonably considered for a home wood worker, was about $20K. Let's say that it had to be financed. That would be basically a car payment for the term. At the end of the term, how much would the car be worth? and how much would the machine be worth?

If the machine just sat there you would still be better off with the machine in your garage, than a car. If you use it though, it's a whole different story.
New furniture is expensive. It doesn't take many "Home Projects" to begin to justify the expense of a new machine over time. New furniture is also being made increasingly cheaper. More staples and super glue, and less joinery is being utilized. Most of this type of furniture will not last 20 years in daily use. If you make your own furniture, you get to make it your way, using traditional joinery, and techniques that will allow that furniture to still be in use, and fully functional, a 100 years from now.

You can make any style of furniture, you're not limited to what's on the showroom floor.

If you really want to "pay off" that machine quick. Build your own kitchen and bathroom cabinets. Even the 'Borg level cabinets can get up to $20 grand for a complete replacement. The difference in quality, between what you can buy, and what you can build is worlds apart, and most importantly. "You get to have it your way".

If the machine(s) are put to use, it is very easy to justify the cost, and depreciate the investment over time.

My .02 fwiw. Once again. Welcome to Sawmill Creek.

[Scott Thornton]

Thanks guys for the quick responses.

A couple more targetted questions.

Tod:

Nice shop, saw your pics...where can I find used or demo equipment? I don't seem to see any anywhere.

Mike:

If you were to finance it, where do you do that through? Your bank, or do the companies offer something?

Thanks a lot!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Go and run the equipment yourself. Listen to your own heart and hands. Run different machines by different manufacturers. These things, the combos, especially are brutally expensive and you don’t want to be sorry later on. Be willing to add a few thousand dollars maybe several thousand to your current budget to get exactly what you want. Combo machines are not straight forward things. They are almost always custom orders.
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You are going to find "loyalists" of any given manufacturer. You are also going to find detractors of any given brand too. Sometimes the reasons for any given loyalty or antipathy are more subjective than substantive. Trying to figure out which is which is, I think, a dangerous game. I submit that the sole way to make your decisions is to go and test run the various machines yourself.
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Another really great source of first hand anecdotal information can be had for free by simply joining the various owners forums ( I know there’s one for Felder and another for Mini Max). Simply lurk a while watching for “issues” and post questions. Those people on those forums are very supportive of each other and post their issues as well as joys. You will learn a lot. Additionally you may find one or more members of these forums living near you who will let you have some time on their equipment.


The Mini Max guy who posts on this forum will find you a MM owner near you, & contact them to see about getting you a test run. Felder has a shop set up in <st1:state w:st="on"><st1 ="">Delaware</st1></st1:state> with everything they make all ready for you to run and try out and climb over.

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I was looking at Laguna when I began a search for a couple machines. They didn't impress me very well. The sales guy knew the marketing literature cold but, beyond that he was absolutely ignorant and unwilling to investigate. I wanted to know certain things about the equipment such as the size & number of the bearings in the slider. He didn't know, asserted that there were no technical manuals available to consult, and couldn't find out. I got rid of him after that. Other issues with Laguna and Knapp has to do with impossibly bad service and unnecessary waste of the consumer dollar. (EX: watch the Knapp DVD & observe that silly brass washer routine, - what's a brass washer doing there? It's a waste. Why is the weld so horrible? Why is the owner of Knapp lying about the "machinist" making the decision to put it there?

I ended up buying from Eric Delaney at Felder. He went into the parts booth grabbed a micrometer and measured the bearings for me. Then he went to the machine and pulled it apart to count the bearings. Woo Hoo. Eric also did some other things for me. He apprised me when to place an order to get a better rate on price cause they had to fill up a container. He helped me get around some expensive additional costs (there are always additional costs when custom ordering a machine). Eric also steered me away from purchasing a large band saw from Felder after we chatted about my application. He came up with creative options that expanded my shop’s capability while saving me money. He was also more than willing to suggest other manufacturers of equipment where he felt they were worth a consideration.


I'll offer you the same advice I got about combos.
If you have the room you will like the separate machines a hell of a lot more. I was thinking of a combo. I was attracted to the several machine functions for the lesser price compared to ponying up for one of each. To a man, everyone said don't do it unless space is your enemy. So I didn't. I run different machines when I please. I can have my slot mortiser set up, either of both of my jointers running, and my TS cutting and I have no issues with running around from tool to tool. I don't have to be perfectly organized.
When I'm doing art pieces I often build one stick of wood at a time applying the lumber like an artist applies paint. I know where I want to end up but, how I get there is a unfettered by procedure or constraints imposed by inability to access a particular tool at any given moment.
When I have more than one project going at a time I am unhindered by the need to disable one function to use another.

It’d be entirely wrong to suggest that those who have combos can't do art-work or can't do multiple projects etc., are but, I will offer that they have to be profoundly more organized and structured than must a person with separate machines.
When you see the guy at the show demonstrating how unfettered he can be using the combo going back and forth from function to function you need to bear in mind that this guy practices those exact switches over and over. He's got 'em down colder than <st1:city w:st="on"><st1 ="">Clinton</st1></st1:city> feeling your pain and won't show you operations where he is balked by the issues of switching around.
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[Jim Becker]

I really like Mike's thoughts on this subject relative to investing in tools. Not everyone can handle things that way for obvious reasons, but the premise is sound, IMHO.

Cliff, Erik is a very nice fellow. I often spoke with him when he worked for Mini Max and always enjoy running into him at shows.

Scott, I'm glad you're giving this some careful thought. So many of us who ultimately end up with the type of gear you are considering get there in a round-about (and ultimately more expensive) way. If you have the means to invest in the higher-end gear up-front, whether Euro or not, I think you win no matter what. If you ultimately bail, you'll get more back from the gear. If you embrace woodworking whole-heartedly, you'll be spending more time concentrating on the "art" rather than dealing with your tools. I wish I would have known/done this in the beginning...

[tod evans]

[quote=Scott Thornton]
Tod:

Nice shop, saw your pics...where can I find used or demo equipment? I don't seem to see any anywhere.

quote]


scott, thanks! as for used or demo stuff call the companies you`re wanting to deal with. if somebody has a used piece they`re looking to trade up from the sales guys are usually the first to know. the demo stuff is generally done the same way, when a manufacturer goes to a show they`ve got to drag the equipment with them, regardless of brand, and both they and you can save money if you buy a "demo" piece and pick it up at the show.
cliff has given you good advice on the seperates, i too believe in seperate machines but i have the room for them as does cliff. try to do a "hands on" like cliff suggested before writing any check and thoroughly explore your options by reading, talking and seeing in person as much as you can. in the end only you know your needs and you`ll have to figure out what equipment fits them best. the better equipment holds its value more than the lesser offerings so keep this in mind as you research.
good luck and keep us posted as to how your quest proceeds...02 tod

[Mike Cutler]

Thanks guys for the quick responses.

A couple more targetted questions.

Mike:

If you were to finance it, where do you do that through? Your bank, or do the companies offer something?

Thanks a lot!

Scott.

On the subject of financing. I really don't know the exact particulars.I've never looked into it. I think it would be based upon your individual financial situation. Whether it was some form of "Dealer Financing", personal loan, or Home equity/2nd mortgage loan would be up to you.

As for the Combos.

From what I've read, they can be had in different combinations.Depending on what you intend to use it for will have a large part in your decision. I personally liked the combination of the Euro style slider, with the Jointer/Planer.

I know that sometimes Paul Cresti takes a little ribbing for his position on Euro style sliders and machines. But, Paul has some incredibly valid arguments that support his position. If I ever have the space, and budget permits. He's convinced me of the benefits of at least a Euro style slidng tablesaw. Do an advanced search under Paul's name, and you will find a wealth of info on the subject. He is also a big MiniMax supporter, and is very knowledgable on the MiniMax product line.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I've recently finished moving my shop to smaller quarters in a two car garage. I traded my Powermatic 66, MiniMax Shaper and MiniMax Jointer/Planer for the MM Classic 300. Got a demo unit in near new condition direct from MM for $8000. Had money been no object I might have gone for the saw/shaper and the jointer/planer, but this way I now have room for a lathe, which I never had before.

I am most impressed with the safety that comes with this unit, especially the sliding table. I kind of think of it as a BMW. Active safety due to the way it operates. I regarded the SawStop kind of like a Volvo.

mike

excellent comments from Tod E & Mike C

[lou sansone]

welcome to the creek

I have spent some time looking at this issue and here are my 2 cents

1. on prices there seems to be a little room, but not too much from what I have seen, unless there is a show discount. I get worried when the prices start to move 20% from published, one mfg started doing that with me. It makes me think that someone is playing games, which in the end I think they were.

2. Is this the last machine you will buy? think about a phased approach to acquiring machines

3. Take your time and ask lots of questions. visit folks and see what they like and don't like. Also pay attention to the "demographics". Is there a trend with what type of people own what brand. I found that there was. Figure out which demographic you fit in and add that to your decision. Case in point, was one Demographic seemed to me to be a bunch of "well moneyed older men". Sorry but that was not me.

best wishes
Lou

[Scott Thornton]

Thanks for all the help and advice.

I think, even though space is a concern that separate machines will be better for me. I don't have a lot of space, but I'm also not cramped. I do not like to mess with equipment, aside from setting it on a mobile base and moving it around.

I agree with the phased approach to purchases, but my wife is tired of me trading up, so I'm looking into purchasing one machine that will last forever (well, one table saw, bandsaw, jointer/planer etc.). I do not fit into that well moneyed older men club. I fit into the I make decent money, am 28 years old with 3 kids a mortgage fit...wife keeps me on a tight budget...

I have heard a lot of good stuff about Laguna, but almost every comment is great product, terrible support...not good for me...

Rojek seems to be my next choice for a tablesaw...3K for their's...MiniMax is over 5000. I would rather have the MiniMax, but that 2K could go towards a nice bandsaw.

I think I need to find somewhere where I can see some of these machines and play around, just not sure where.

Great forum BTW, very friendly and helpful people.

[lou sansone]

hi Scott
Is there any possibility of purchasing a lightly used European machine in your mind? I know that some folks really frown on buying used machines and I think when it comes to sliders you would have to be very careful, but you might find one used of the higher caliber that you were looking at without blowing your budget.

[john lawson]

You have already received a lot of good advice so I will be brief, and repeat some of what has been said, and offer one additional option.

Go and try the machines yourself. If you don't you will always wonder if you did the right thing. About your choices. Minimax has a good reputation for the product and mixed on support. Laguna has a mixed reputation on the machine and poor support. I recommend you consider a Rojek. I believe they are on par with Minimax and Hammer and better than the Robland from Laguna. Felders are a cut above these machines but they are very expensive (relatively).

The Rojek will be between the Minimax and Robland in cost but value wise you will come out much better, the support from Rojek is exellent. Call up Tech Mark and talk to Todd. Here is a link to the machines that I would recommend you consider.

http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/kps300a.php

I own one like this except mine has the cast iron sliding table, CV-2. My machine has been great for over 4 years.

As others have suggested consider a used machine. A very nice Minimax CU350 Smart went for $4000 recently, with some goodies. There is a nice Felder available near Philadelphia for $7500 (unless someone scooped it up). It is a 96 model, a BF-6 I believe, and it cost over $20,000 ten years ago. I t would be a great machines for a serious hobbyist.

Above all, take your time and get what you want. If you are a serious hobbyist that is concerned with quality then combination machines make a lot of sense.

Good luck in your quest

[Paul B. Cresti]

Scott,
Welcome to the creek. Ah you said a few dangerous words in your first post, "want to by high quality" and your wife is sick of the upgrading. So...it sounds like this might be you last shot at it so take your time look at all the machines and decide what features are important, LOOK at how they are constructed under the hood and also consider the company you are buying from and the Customer service track record.
I see Cliff has made a "nice" comment about loyalists...well then along those regards I am a MiniMax "loyalist" for many REAL reasons but that is not for discussion here.

In the European machine lineup you will get the good and the bad just like anywhere else, do not assume just because it is a european machine that it is a quality engineered product. Some manufacturers have also begun to outsource their lower machines or parts to the Asian market also....so basically all I can say is do your homework and take you time.

As far as combo's go, they offer a lot of "value". Assuming a good company & Machine, you will get the same basic high quality output in a smaller footprint and for somewhat less money. Sounds great doesn't it? Yes it does and the fact that most of these full 5 function machines have things like 12" jointers (and larger), shapers with a sliding table, horizontal mortisers... are all very enticing. The downside is that you can only perform one function at a time, some functions will interfere with others (especially the shaper, as this machine inherently takes awhile to set up). If you are not in a rush and also enjoy just using the machine in general and are limited in budget....this may truly be the best route.

I personally prefer separates: saw, shaper, but do have a j/p. The J/P is very good compromise of big capacity jointing, high quality results with just a slight inconveinence at times to switch between modes. I do not find this to be a big issue though because the space i saved in my shop far outweighs the slight issue.

Another route would be a saw/shaper and a J/P machine. It would give you the benfits of having separates but the shaper would still cause some hold ups at times. Since you are somewhat new to WW'g though you may not have to much experience with a shaper yet so this might not be a bad idea.

Price....well that might turn out to be a deal breaker for you. Some of these prices may be a bit hard to swallow. I do beleive some of these companies offer financing but it might be only for business owners. I bought all my machines for my business so that was my excuse for spent just a couple of bucks.

Where are you located? If you are close to Atlanta you might want to check out the IWF show in August. Every manuf (almost in the world) will be there and you could get a view of just about all of them.

Do review of some of my past posts here as I tried to explain the benefits offered by the european style machines.

Good luck and feel free to ask any questions.

[Steven Evans]

I went with a full combo for my needs. One man shop. I plan to add additional shapers, planer later. I figure the full combo will give me some good back up for emergencies later on.

I looked at the big three myself. Laguna, Felder, MM. I started with a Felder and finished with a MM unit. I did not notice a big price difference to similar machines. If there is a big price difference then there is probably a big difference in machines being quoted. You can get good results with any machine. You need to check some Yahoo forums, see what owners of different brand have to say. Most important find a knowledge salesman that knows his machine and can get what you like in your budget.

I have been mislead by great deals, so ask others on the owner's forums. You will find the loyalists on each and they can guide you also.

There is a big show coming up in Atlanta in July. Good place to check out machines first hand and check on show deals. Be sure and check out ease of function change over and set up(repeatability).

Most financing for machinery consist of commercial leases. Many have $1.00 buy out in the end. It all works for tax reasons. You will probably need to get your own loan/cash.

[Bart Leetch]

So how about some pictures of your shop & tools a review of the kind of projects you have built & a description of what projects you want to build in the future.

Maybe there is a way we can save you some money & also keep you out of trouble with the LOYL. Sometimes what we think we want isn't always the best thing for us, Hmmm?:D

[Dan Larson]

the support from Rojek is exellent. Call up Tech Mark and talk to Todd.

Just a heads up. My experiences in dealing with Todd from Tech Mark have been a little frustrating. On the other hand, I've had no problems with Laguna. As they say, your mileage may vary...

Dan

[Scott Thornton]

I've spent the weekend reading up and doing research on the recommendations everyone has provided.

I really appreciate everyone's help...it seems the only way for me to go is to see some of these machines in person...I don't like to fiddle around with equipment, so the thought of having to mess with a combo machine is kind of making me think twice...the cost is a big plus though, the larger jointer is a really big plus.

To give some background on me...

I'm really looking for a tablesaw that I will never have to replace...that's what got me started...

I would then like a nice bandsaw, probably something around a 16.

My next big need is to purchase a jointer/planer combo, these are appealing to me...

A shaper isn't a huge deal to me, as I'm a big router users, I have 4 routers, 3 setup in tables, one I use just for handheld routing.

I have a 6 inch Jet jointer, not that exciting. A Bosch 5412L SCMS. Most of my joinery thus far has been pocket hole type construction, recently started using mortise and tenons, box joints and dovetails.

I just cancelled an order for a Grizzly cabinet saw with a cast iron router table extension...mainly because I knew this would be another interim machine and right now, I don't have any projects going on where I need a tablesaw, so I figure I have some time to save and get one that would really suit me better. I just returned my Ridgid 10inch tablesaw after 82 days of use, when the blade started to stop while pushing stock through...luckily, they have a decent warranty and I walked out with cash from purchase...

My work is primarily cabinets, built ins, "stuff around the house". I haven't done any "furniture" grade type stuff...yet...I wanted to make the cabinets for the house we built a few years ago, but wasn't quite ready and setup for that at that time...however, we are building again next year and I plan on making the cabinets for that house...would like to start this winter on that...there are also tons of built ins, custom wainscot etc that I will be making for that house...

So, basically, that is where I am right now...sorry for the long posts, I'm just really excited, I feel like I have found that "great" resource, the information on this forum and the resonses are awesome...thanks so much...

I'm kind of leading towards going with separates, but until I get my hands and eyes on some equipment, I can't say for sure...The Europeon sliders are definately the route I would like to go...

[tod evans]

scott, don`t discount shapers! they are the workhorse of most small to medium shops both in the us and europe. a shaper equiped with a feeder will open up a whole new approach to the way you work wood if you`re used to routers. the accuracy, speed and quality of cut will astound you. keep reading and asking questions...02 tod

[Chris Barton]

Scott,

I own a Robland (Laguna) X31 and would be happy to tell you about it if you contact me via PM. Also, in one of my recent posts (Federal Card Table) you can see a project largely made with this machine.

[Scott Thornton]

Chris:

I sent you a PM to get some more info on the Laguna. Currently, they are running a special for 5895 plus free shipping on the X31, seems like a great deal.

I had read somewhere that they have been "outsourcing" some of their parts and manufacturing, anyone know if this is true?

Thanks.

[tod evans]

[quote=Scott Thornton]

I had read somewhere that they have been "outsourcing" some of their parts and manufacturing, anyone know if this is true?

quote]


i`d call `em up and ask `em point blank......see what they tell you? .02 tod

[Paul Canaris]

Chris, in order of build quality it's the Robland, Mini-Max, Felder and Knapp. Suggest you purchase the best you can afford as it is a one time purchase. I spent time hands on with each unit, and ended up with Knapp.

[lou sansone]

Chris, in order of build quality it's the Robland, Mini-Max, Felder and Knapp. Suggest you purchase the best you can afford as it is a one time purchase. I spent time hands on with each unit, and ended up with Knapp.

hi paul
so as not to hijack the thread, I wonder if you could offer what criteria you used in trying to evaluate these machines and why you ranked them the way you did. I have also studied all of the above mentioned machines, and I see strengths and weaknesses in each. Was there one outstanding feature that pushed you to come down on the side of the knapp?

lou

[Charlie Plesums]

Welcome to the creek. I went through the same discussions... even starting with Ridgid when I upgraded to a MiniMax combo after considering Robland, Rojkek, Hammer, MiniMax, Felder, and Knapp.

On the combo vs. separates... My shop is a 2 car garage, which occasionally still has to hold a car. In addition to MiniMax's largest combo, I have 2 bandsaws (14 and 24 inch), a lathe, drill press, drum sander, radial arm saw, dust collector, etc. etc. If I had a ton of space, I would probably get two combos... saw/shaper (that share the slider), and a jointer/planer/mortiser combo. As others have said... don't downplay a shaper... it is as much over a router table as a table saw is over a skil saw. Look at my web site for the kind of work I do.

I have been woodworking "forever" including rebuilding most of the houses that I lived in. My wife's comment (wife of 36 years) when she really got to use the combo was "you should have gotten that 30 years ago." I agree... it would have paid for itself many times over.

I have written my story too many times... search this site or the MiniMax forum, or feel free to drop me a note or give me a call - I love to chat about how my decision may be similar to yours ... my phone number is on my web site.

[Paul Canaris]

hi paul
so as not to hijack the thread, I wonder if you could offer what criteria you used in trying to evaluate these machines and why you ranked them the way you did. I have also studied all of the above mentioned machines, and I see strengths and weaknesses in each. Was there one outstanding feature that pushed you to come down on the side of the knapp?

lou

At the risk of beginning a pissing match which I wont participate in; keeping in mind that both Mini-Max and Felder has multiple levels of units (I am not familiar with their upper end machines which are likely made more robust and are of course more expensive).
Yes, several factors actually. >>
If you look at a Knapp the mechanisms used for up and down movement are cast iron dovetailed ways with jibs for wear adjustment. This construction is more typical for metalworking; such as my Clausing Gear Head Lathe; it holds accuracy and wears better over time. The adjustment travel was also the smoothest of all it tried out. I can give the TS up-down wheel and spin and it will keep going for four or five revolutions. This applies to both the TS and the shaper. The acme threads don’t foul, period. They claim to use cold rolled threads, whatever that means.>>
The base uses ¼” steel throughout, which adds to mass, vibration damping and a better foundation for the slider, TS and Shaper. The casting for the slider is thicker than those I compared it to.
I have no idea if their slider table bearing technology is better or not then the competitions; I just know that I don’t need to clean the raceways; it keeps running as smooth as the day I purchased it.
The miter fence is very, very solid and does not deflect.
I asked several owners how in-square the unit was straight from the factory and was told right on the money; I hate calibrating machines, I have a bad back. This was my experience as well, as the unit was right on straight out of the crate. Also the unit has held it’s calibration to date.
The high speed router feature is the only one that turns at the same speed as a regular router.
The rip fence was the most solid with the least deflection.
I recall that the tolerances for cast iron surfaces and such were the tightest.
No, I was not impressed with the brass washer to limit door hinge wear, that’s salesmanship.
I found the article in FWW to be accurate in terms of strengths and weaknesses; I personally think it was one of the best equipment comparisons I have read in that magazine. They stated that the unit held it’s accuracy the best and was the easiest to adjust; again, I hate calibrating equipment.
Also, several other articles come to mind as well where the knapp was given the edge with the typical caveat of cost.
Having said that it was still a tough decision. Mini-Max is purported to be very strong in customer support, something that Laguna is still working on improving.
Felder had so many cool add on features that I wish I could have gotten most of them with the Knapp, but they just aren’t available on the Knapp. They also have good customer service as well.
And last but not least, Laguna had just dropped the base price of the unit and someone had ordered a unit and backed out on the deal, so I was able to get a fully loaded unit for a very, very good price.

[David Less]

Paul,

Based on my research and background I tend to agree with everything you said about the Knapp.

David

[Paul Canaris]

I agree with one other posters comments about combination machine changover times. I once owned a Robland X-31 and the switchover issues drove me nuts. I opted for the Knapp Prof-T 10' Slider TS with Shaper. I then purchased a used SAC 16" Jointer and a used Griggio 24" Planer. This has given me a great deal of flexibility. If I could have afforded it, and had the room in my shop, in retrospect I would have gone seperates entirely and just purchased the Knapp Slider with a seperate Shaper. Although having a sliding table as part of the shaper is a very nice feature. Having said that Scott, I think any one of the units made by Mini-Max or Felder would make you very happy. Also, dont be afraid to look at a used unit, you could save a lot that way.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Scott,I see Cliff has made a "nice" comment about loyalists...
Well gee Paul I wasn't thinking of you. I can't tell you how many threads I have been part of (mostly in other forums) where I'd be part of a perfectly rational discussion on machinery and some character would plough into the dialog with an angry tone demanding where people got off impugning the brand name he was attached to or - god forbid - (dare I even mention it?) a sawstop argument would erupt etc., etc.,. People get their panties in tight little angry bunches over the oddest of things. Then they post on internet forums.

((I have noticed substantialy less (quite possibly zero) of that angry nonsence here - I wonder if it is entirely due to the use of real names. ))

And of course there is really and truely such a thing as "buyers loyalty." It's that bizzarre phenom when a person purchasees "Brand X" and thereafter pours oodles of mental energy into a game with oneself asserting that the decision was the only possible best decision and anyone who decides otherwise is making a bad decision.


And now let us all bow our heads in a brief prayer to the thread gods:
Please oh please don't let this thread decend into a bitter angry hostile argument about sawstops.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Cliff,
Well said. Agreed

[lou sansone]

At the risk of beginning a pissing match which I wont participate in; keeping in mind that both Mini-Max and Felder has multiple levels of units (I am not familiar with their upper end machines which are likely made more robust and are of course more expensive).
Yes, several factors actually. >>
If you look at a Knapp the mechanisms used for up and down movement are cast iron dovetailed ways with jibs for wear adjustment. This construction is more typical for metalworking; such as my Clausing Gear Head Lathe; it holds accuracy and wears better over time. The adjustment travel was also the smoothest of all it tried out. I can give the TS up-down wheel and spin and it will keep going for four or five revolutions. This applies to both the TS and the shaper. The acme threads don’t foul, period. They claim to use cold rolled threads, whatever that means.>>
The base uses ¼” steel throughout, which adds to mass, vibration damping and a better foundation for the slider, TS and Shaper. The casting for the slider is thicker than those I compared it to.
I have no idea if their slider table bearing technology is better or not then the competitions; I just know that I don’t need to clean the raceways; it keeps running as smooth as the day I purchased it.
The miter fence is very, very solid and does not deflect.
I asked several owners how in-square the unit was straight from the factory and was told right on the money; I hate calibrating machines, I have a bad back. This was my experience as well, as the unit was right on straight out of the crate. Also the unit has held it’s calibration to date.
The high speed router feature is the only one that turns at the same speed as a regular router.
The rip fence was the most solid with the least deflection.
I recall that the tolerances for cast iron surfaces and such were the tightest.
No, I was not impressed with the brass washer to limit door hinge wear, that’s salesmanship.
I found the article in FWW to be accurate in terms of strengths and weaknesses; I personally think it was one of the best equipment comparisons I have read in that magazine. They stated that the unit held it’s accuracy the best and was the easiest to adjust; again, I hate calibrating equipment.
Also, several other articles come to mind as well where the knapp was given the edge with the typical caveat of cost.
Having said that it was still a tough decision. Mini-Max is purported to be very strong in customer support, something that Laguna is still working on improving.
Felder had so many cool add on features that I wish I could have gotten most of them with the Knapp, but they just aren’t available on the Knapp. They also have good customer service as well.
And last but not least, Laguna had just dropped the base price of the unit and someone had ordered a unit and backed out on the deal, so I was able to get a fully loaded unit for a very, very good price.


Thanks for the response. you make some good points
best wishes with your knapp

lou

[nic obie]

And now let us all bow our heads in a brief prayer to the thread gods:
Please oh please don't let this thread decend into a bitter angry hostile argument about sawstops.



:D :D :D :D

[Steven Evans]

Since this thread seems to have been hijack from the separates or combo???.
I went with the New MM410 Elite "S" version. I have 6.5HP motors, 10' slider. It is a very nice machine. Great quality. I can not imagine much improvement for woodworking.
I can not say enough about there customer service. It is absolutely the best I have had in any business. You will not be disapointed with there customer service or there tech service.

[tod evans]

so steve, are you running that beast yet? if so what are your initial feelings? tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Since this thread seems to have been hijack from the separates or combo???.
I went with the New MM410 Elite "S" version. I have 6.5HP motors, 10' slider. It is a very nice machine. Great quality. I can not imagine much improvement for woodworking.
I can not say enough about there customer service. It is absolutely the best I have had in any business. You will not be disapointed with there customer service or there tech service.

Steve,
Did you get the swing arm bracket for the feeder?? I was wondering if it would fit on my T50N. What is it like to run a shaper with digitals??