Kitchen countertop breakfast bar

[Bob Childress]

Okay, my turn to ask for some help, please. I am redoing our kitchen countertops, removing post-formed laminate and replacing with porcelain tile. I am keeping the existing base cabinets as is, except for adding some new drawer slides and such. On one counter, I plan to raise part of it 6 inches or so and cantilever it about 6 inches out from the edge to form a raised breakfast bar that will acommodate high bar stools. (See drawings.)

The new base countertop is two layers of 3/4 B/C ply glued and screwed together. I thought to build the raised portion I would construct a box of 3/4 ply, glue and biscuits on the ends and glue and brads for the other cross supports. I would attach this to the base counter using glue blocks and screws. On top of the box, I would put a 3/4 ply countertop and support the overhang with corbels for added strength. So . . .


Does this sound reasonable as an approach?
Suggestions for fastening the cantilevered countertop to the box for best strength?
Will corbels provide enough support for the weight of the tiles on the cantilevered section?
Am I completely off-base?:confused:
Am I making any sense?All opinions welcomed.

[Steve Clardy]

I screw everything together.
Top to raised portion
Raised portion to existing base top.
You need to build in supports, cleats for areas to screw things together.

Depending on how wide your present base is, you may not need the knee knockers. I try not to use those things.
You can overhang 12-14" easily without them. But the overhang amount depends on your base width, weight. You may want to anchor your base to the floor.

I got some pics around here somewhere showing how to attach the overhang top, without any hardware showing.
PM me with your email.

[Steve Clardy]

Never tried posted one of my chicken scratch drawings. Here goes.

[Mark Rios]

First off, let me state that I'm absolutely sure that Steve knows tons more about this particular overhang scenario than I do but, I would make sure that the overhang part is constructed in a way that doesn't allow any flexing of the top. Otherwise, you may get cracks in the grout and/or tile.

Steve, how do you eliminate the flexing without some sort of brace? Some sort of a thinner torsion box dealie? I've seen (and installed) solid surface 18" overhangs using two layers of 3/4" ply with a wide edge treatment but nothing unsupported for tile. What are your tricks for this situation?

[Steve Clardy]

Ok. Best as I can here Mark.
IF [big if] the overhang isn't over 12-14", and everythings tied down, no support is necessary. Two layers of ply isn't going to sag in that distance.
Bob is using two layers of ply, with tile.

When tileing on ply, you need to use the proper contact cement.
Tile to wood is different than tile to concrete board.
This contact glue flexes, so no cracks.
At least that has been the way I've done it, and haven't had any failures.

[Mark Rios]

Aaahhhh....see????......that's why you get the big Creeker bucks Steve.......I thought he only said that he was using one layer of ply. Silly meeee. I really gotta learn to read one of these days. :D

I could see two layers being stiff. In fact two layers for 18" is pretty stiff itself.

Thanks Steve. You da man. ;)

[Steve Clardy]

Notice the raised front for the tile to butt against.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The tile book I use for a reference and the tile jobs I've done....I use a mastic in these type of situations. When going to concrete backer board I use thinset as these are generally wet conditions.

[Ben Grunow]

I built a 12" raised top with about 6" overhang like yours in my old house and I had no problems (I saw a girl fall while dancing drunk on it and it was OK-she was a different story). I built a solid base like you planned with double layers of ply every where mainly so I could get more glue surface and more wood to screw into. The top was 2 layers 1/2" of paint grade ply yellow glued and screwed together with a layer of 1/4" backer board w/thinset and screws on top. The top was 12"x12" granite tiles with a 1/2" cherry edge. No cracks after many rough parties. Good luck and don't let any one you like dance up there.

[Bob Childress]

Thanks to everyone for their input. Yes, I was planning to use 1 layer of 3/4 ply for the overhang (2 layers on the base cabinet), but will change to Steve's design which is more elegant and goof proof.;)

As for laying the tile itself, I did not make it clear. I am using Schluter Ditra underlayment over the ply for waterproofing and decoupling. The Ditra is applied to the ply using modified thinset and the tiles to the Ditra using unmodified thinset (per manufacturer's specs). I just want to make darn sure that I don't get any deflection on the countertop that will crack the grout, but I also didn't want to use overkill either.:)

I am doing one section of u-shaped counter at a time so as not to have the kitchen totally disrupted. Am saving the sink/cooktop section for last as it will be the most diffcult and I hope my experience with the other sections will make it go faster and easier.

If you like, I will post some pix later today to show you where I've been, where I'm at and where I'm going with this project.

[Charlie Plesums]

Be sure to glue the two layers of ply together ... screws make great clamps in the middle, even if they are later removed. If you just use two layers, it is twice as stiff as one layer. If you make it is single piece with glue, it is either 8 or 16 times as stiff (those engineering classes were a lot of years ago).

Be sure both layers are the same... I thought I would be clever by combining a layer of MDF for a smooth surface with a layer of plywood for strength. I now have an excellent hygrometer... the amount of bow tells me the humidity.

I would be sure that the "box" that raises the counter is open on one side... I hate to waste that amount of junk storage space.

[Gail O'Rourke]

Hi, looks like you are right on track here and it will be a great project. I have done a similar island design and I came out 18" and then supported by columns on side, left more leg room. Just a design idea. Good luck - fun project.

[Bob Childress]

Thanks Charlie,

Yes, the two layers are always both glued and screwed together to form a "single" piece. Then, I attached the base cabinet to the ply (or vice versa) using several cleats with slightly oversized shank holes to allow for any slight movement.

Unfortunately, even ply isn't always as flat as you'd like for laying tile. To get it as flat as possible, I cut the first layer from one single piece (if I can), then for the second layer I cut "cross" pieces and flip the face grain in the opposite direction. 1/8" or so gaps at seams. Then, if there is a slight bow in the smaller pieces I begin screwing down the middle of the bow to allow the piece to "flatten." Sort of like smoothing air bubbles out of laminiate--work from the middle out.

If anybody know a better way, of course, I am open to suggestions. I need to post those pix.:)

[Bob Childress]

Here are some quick pics of the counter project. The house was built in the 1970's, so we have some nice Avocado appliances, sink, etc.

First tiled that small stand alone counter to get a feel for the material. Now have the new top on the next section, awaiting the raised part. You can also see the post-formed laminate that's now there.

Will be replacing appliances, sink and so on as I go.:eek:

(Notice Steve's drawing is laying there ready for me to take to the shop.)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It's a fact of life. There is nothing one can do to eliminate deflection in any overhang. Minimizing it is the only game in town.

As a young toolmaker I had a boss who enjoyed mentoring. He told us about an experiment they conducted at Texas Instruments way back in the day to examine how pandemic deflection in fact was

They took a bar of hardened steel (I forget the thickness) and projected it from a granite table by various lengths from 4" all the way down to 1".
With the end of the bar securely fastened to the table: They affixed an ultra precise indicator with a millionths of an inch readout to the table and to the end of the bar. They applied a 1 pound of weight in the form of a spring loaded downward pressure to the end of the bar.

According to him, the bar of hardened tool steel deflected at every single increment.

Of course if deflected. Any other result would be in absolute denial of the rules of physics as we know them. It's just a matter of degree.

As much as I like tile as aesthically pleasing for counter top and back splash applications - and have used it in homes I owned prior - I won't use it again for two reasons: (1) The grout lines may tend to fracture under the movement inherrent in any wood structure and the human eyes are way too close to the counter on a regular basis to miss the little cracks.
In a good floor those cracks may never be observed because people's eyes aren't so physically close to the tiles; and (2) Grout is brutally hard to keep clean when used as a food preparation surface. Sealants are only going to do so much.

[Bob Childress]

Here are a couple of pics of the raised breakfast bar, now a work in progress. The box that yields the higher countertop uses 24 cleats to attach--12 to attach the box to the base and 12 to attach the new counter to the box. Everything is glued and screwed.



The other pic shows the new counter with edge tiles (v-caps) installed and the field tiles dry-fitted (been cutting and grinding a good bit today.:)



Although I love the v-cap edges, if I had it to do again I think I would band it with wood, simply for the sake of the budget. Each v-cap costs more than a full 12X12 tile and I just had to order 35 more of them this morning. :eek:

Thanks for looking.

[Steve Clardy]

lookin good Bob!