Problem with drawing holes through groups

[Detlef Fallisch]

Hi woodworkers,

This is my first append on this forum so let me introduce myself. My name is Detlef Fallisch. I am a German woodworker, woodrat user and since two weeks a fan of SketchUp. My aim is to build a work bench similar like that Dave made as SketchUp model. I started with the drawing of a leg for the workbench. But now I have reached a point where I need help from an experienced user.

My problem is very simple, but it seems that I have a blackout. I wanted to draw one of the legs of the workbench. This leg will be made from three single boards and because I wanted to have a separate drawing for each of this three boards, I made three groups in SketchUp. In the completed leg the three boards shall remain visible.

I used the move tool to "glue" the three boards (groups) on one edge together.

Next I wanted to drill a hole through all three boards. If I edit the first group (board), I can draw a circle on the surface and use the push/pull tool to make the hole. But that hole goes only through the first board. What I wanted, was a hole through the all three boards (groups).

So I tried a rather complicated solution: first moved the first board away from the two others, edited the group, draw a circle used the push/pull tool to make a hole. After repeating the same procedure to the other two boards I finally moved the boards (groups) together again.

But I am sure there must be an easier way. So I tried next to ungroup the the three separate groups and made a single group from all three boards. But now I lost the geometry from my three single boards because the planes where the boards will be glued together in reality, are deleted in the model when the hole is pushed through.

Next I tried to use a cylinder and intersect it with the three single boards. But whenever I try to edit the first group (board) I don't see the cylinder that intersected the boards.

With one word: HOPELESS whatever I tried!!!

After searching for a solution on several forums I am sure that I can find help here.

I attach a Sketchup file so that you can see what I am trying to do.

Regards
Detlef

[Dave Richards]

Detlef, when I get home from work I'll see if I can make a picture to show you what you want to do.

Very quickly, though, assume that your three boards start out to be identical. Draw one of them and instead of making it a group, make it a component. Copy the component twice (Move+CTRL) and use the move tool to position them as you did with the three groups before. Select one of the outer pieces, right click and choose Edit component. Draw the circle for the hole as desired and use Push/Pull to drill the hole. It will be drilled in all three pieces at the same time.

Now, if at some point one or more of those layers will be cut differently than the others, select that component, right click and choose Make unique. At that point that component is no longer related to the rest of them.

I have an idea to improve that but a picture will be better. I'll do it ASAP.

Dave

[Dave Richards]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/weekender410/Detlef1.jpg

1. Make one layer of the leg. Make it a component. I put a diagonal line only to show the part's orientation.
2. Copy the component and move them into place
3. Mirror one outside piece. (Scale tool and -1) Note the diagonal line on the nearer of the three parts.
4. Edit one of the components. make the hole by drawing the circle and using Push/Pull to drill it.
5. I separated the parts so you could see that the hole is drilled through all three.
6. I made the center layer unique from the other two. Then I drew a profile for a bevel at the foot on one of the outside pieces. I used Follow Me to cut the bevel on the three sides. I only had to do this on one piece since it is a twin of the other outside piece. the other one gets trimmed at the same time.

The next step would be to bevel the corners of the middle piece. I I didn't do that because the drawing was starting to get too wide. Hopefully you get the idea, though.

Just as a general method of work, think of how you would work with the wood. To make efficient use of your tools and time, you would try to make as many like pieces as you can so you don't have to go back to a setup again. You might try to plane all the pieces that are going to 1/2" thick at the same time and then rip all the pieces that will be 3" wide so you can use the same setup.

As you get to parts that need to be different, they start leaving the production path that the others are on and head off in another direction.

Try to do this when you can with SU. As in the example, all three pieces started out the same. The center one ends up being different later so just before making it different than the others I made it unique so it wouldn't contine to take on the same characteristices as the others.

I hope all this makes sense.

Cheers.

[Aaron Beaver]

This was stated by Dave in another post which cleared things up greatly concerning "groups" & "components" for me.

[quote=Dave Richards]"From a drawing standpoint, the only differences between a component and a group are that copies of a component all get edited when one gets edited. With groups, each copy is a separate thing and not related to the others. Using components is a good idea when you'll have multiple copies of the same item. Table legs, shelves, etc. Because the copies of the component are related, SU only keeps track of the geometry for the first one. This helps to keep file size down which reduces problems with proccessor slow down.[/qoute]

[Detlef Fallisch]

Thanks Dave!

I tried what you posted in your append. It works!!!
My problem is, that I started drawing the single boards first and because each board is unique I thought it was a good idea to make a group of it. If you look at the SU model, you will note that the middle board is thicker than the outside boards. I tried to consider all the details when I designed each board, but when I was ready and "glued" the boards together I noticed that I forgot a hole. (see SU model)

So I ended up with having three groups (boards) through which I needed to bore a hole.

Does there exist a solution getting this hole with using a group too?

Regards
Detlef

[Detlef Fallisch]

Hi Dave,

forgot to explain where I wanted to bore the forgotten hole. See SU model to understand my problem. There is already a hole in the middle board. But I forgot to countersink the bore for a screw.

This "damned hole" can not be done by editing the group representing the middle board because the outer boards nee to be drilled (partly) too.

Any ideas?

PS: I love Sketchup, I love Sketchup, I love Sketchup......

[Dave Richards]

Detlef, I've been trying to post this reply since about 1700 CDT. For some reason I couldn't get into the forum. The trick is to think in terms of operations you'll do to the various parts and how you can do that to multiple parts if possible. Here's how I approached it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/weekender410/detlef21.jpg

1.Your model. I didn't do anything to it. I just used it for reference.
2.I drew one part for the leg, made it a component and copied it. I actually would have made a second copy for the third layer at this point but I was trying to avoid clutter for this tutorial.
3.I drilled the through holes in the nearest part. Since the middle layer is currently related to the front one, it gets drilled, too.
4.I selected one of the leg pieces—doesn't matter which in this case—right clicked and chose Make unique from the context menu. I made the counterbores in the front piece by editing the component. I located the center of the hole with the inferencing off the edge of it. If you hold the Shift key while the Circle tool is on the face of the leg, the orientation of the circle will be locked. So I drew the circle for the counterbore and used Push/Pull to cut it.
Next I edited the middle layer to make it thicker. If you look closely you can see that it is thicker. That's just a quick Push/Pull. Then I cut the notches that will be the mortises and drilled the through holes. You can't see those holes but they are there. I also added the third layer (Just copied one of the pieces from #2 and made it Unique.) Then I cut the notch and mortise in it.
5. Here the leg pieces are brought together and rotated so you can see the outside face. I drew circles centered on each hole. The circles are outside all three components.
6.Here I've started the counterbore in the leg. I edited the left leg part and traced the edge of each circle making sure to start and stop on the edge of the leg. A quick Push/Pull and that part of the counterbore is complete. I didn't finish it but I would edit each of the other two parts the same way before deleting the circles. I deleted them here so you could see the start of the counterbore.

I did this with the three parts separated from each other but it could have been done with them all together in their final positions. Keep in mind, you can always hide geometry if it is in your way. Simply select it, right click and choose Hide. To make it reappear, select Unhide from the Edit menu.

Even though these three pieces are no longer related components as they once were, it is useful to make them components anyway. You'll probably have 3 more legs just like this one and by making copies of the parts, potential changes down the road will only need to be done to the parts of a single leg.

By the way, after you've completed the first leg, copy all three parts of the leg with the move tool. Mirror that copy to make the other leg on the same end or side of the bench. Select both of those legs, copy them and then mirror them to make the legs at the opposite end.

Give that a try and see what you think.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/weekender410/detlef3.jpg

[Detlef Fallisch]

Hi Dave,

once more I can say: What would be this forum without your help? Thanks a lot for your assistance and the time you spent solving my problem. :)

You wrote:

5. Here the leg pieces are brought together and rotated so you can see the outside face. I drew circles centered on each hole. The circles are outside all three components.

Does this mean, that the circle which I draw for the counterbore is an own object, which is not related to the three components?

I tried to follow your tutorial:

6.Here I've started the counterbore in the leg. I edited the left leg part and traced the edge of each circle making sure to start and stop on the edge of the leg.

What exact are you doing when you write: ...and traced the edge of each circle...

Here is what I did:
1. edit the left component
2. choose the line tool
3. find the point where the circle and the right edge of the board intersect
4. when INTERSECTION is shown click at this point
5. follow the circle line with the line tool until the first green point is shown and the text ENDPOINT OUTSIDE ACTIVE appears. Again click on this point.
6. repeat this step until the circle line meets again the right edge of the board
7. now mark the segment ot the circle with the select tool
8. use push/pull tool to push the segment of the circle into the board

Is this correct or do I do something wrong? :rolleyes:

Does this mean that you must redraw (trace) each single part of the circle lines to prepare a separate surface for the push/pull tool? :(

I have difficulties to find the points where INTERSECTION is displayed. Is there a hidden key which you had to press or must I zoom to a greater extent to find this point.

You wrote:

I did this with the three parts separated from each other but it could have been done with them all together in their final positions.

If you separated the three boards how can you then see the circle lines on the boards. If I try this, the circle always remains glued to the middle board. How did you manged it to see the circle segments on the outer boadrs and still see the rest of the circle on the middle board? :confused:

I am afraid that another sleepless night is waiting for me. :mad:

But I must confess: I am confused on much higher level than before ;)

Detlef

[Dave Richards]

Detlef, I'm glad your confusion is moving to a higher level. ;) Hopefully you won't lose too much sleep though.

Sorry if I wasn't clear regarding step 6. I think you have it though. The full circles are drawn outside all of the components. These circles don't belong and shouldn't attach to any of the leg parts. What I was indicating is what I believe you did by tracing the edge of the circle with the Line tool. You don't need to select the face before selecting the Push/Pull tool.

I think I was having a brain cramp last night when I came up with that method, though. I had a 2 year old screaming in the background. Well, that's my excuse.

Try it a different way. Select the left leg component to edit it. Use the Circle tool to draw a circle centered on the hole and of the desired radius (36mm in this case.) Trace the edge of the leg between the intersections of the circle and that edge. Push?Pull the portion of the circle for the counterbore. Delete the rest of the circle. Move on to the next part and repeat.

As to separating the boards, I only meant I showed them separated as your example while making the three individual parts. I pulled them together before citting those counterbores that span all three boards. My point was that the entire thing could have been drawn with all three boards touching. You don't need to spread them out to work on them.

Get some sleep and see how it looks in the morning. ;)

Dave

[Detlef Fallisch]

Hi Dave,

back from a short holiday I tried your suggestions again. And it works!!!! I finally solved the problem how to bore virtuals holes in virtual boards and my high level confusion disappeared.:D

Admitted, in real life I could have bored at least more than twenty "real holes" in "real wood" within a shorter time, but with your help I solved my problem and that is all what counted. Thank you very much for your assistance.

In my former life I have been a system engineer at IBM and have been two times in Rochester (worked on AS/400 and Iseries). It is a pitty that I don't work for IBM any longer, because otherwise I might have had a chance to work again in the lab in Rochester and meet you downtown in Rochester and get a private SU session. :)

I guess in that case I would have solved my problems within some minutes.

Thanks once more for the patience you had with my questions.

Detlef

[Dave Richards]

I'm glad you got it figured out. It was my pleasure to help you. Yes, it is too babd you don't still work for Big Blue. I live less than 2 miles from the blue building and I'd have been happy to give you a personal SU lesson.

I think if you play with the procedure I used, you'll find you can bore many more virtual holes than real ones. ;) In fact, given a few moments to set up your virtual wood, you could drill 100 v-holes in the same time it would take to drill one v-hole. :D

If you have more questions let me know.