Lie-Nielsen Dovetail Saw

[Maurice Metzger]

I didn't want to hijack Brian Hale's thread, but I wanted to ask those who have tried the Lie-Nielsen straight handled dovetail saw how they liked it. As I understand it the blade thickness is 0.15", which seems a little thin for a push saw. How does it work in practice? (BTW I blame Alan Turner for putting the idea of using a western style saw in my head :)).

Maurice

[Steve Wargo]

Excellent saw. I've used one and would purchase one, but I've got 3 of the closed handled ones. Don't think you can go wrong with it, but it may be a little light and thin for doing casework.

[Steve Clardy]

Don't have that one, had---I said had, the bigger open handled one. Didn't like it. Hard to start the cut. [Couldn't find a choke on it]
Sold it.

[Steve Schoene]

I have both handle types. The straight handle works well, but it really does emphasize the point that you can't use the saw with a death grip--only a light touch. My first instructor suggested imagining that the handle had been smeared with dog _____. With a suitably light grip the thin kerf isn't a problem.

[Alan DuBoff]

I think the LN is an excellent saw, and some are hard to start, which are due to various reasons. One problem is that most people don't seem to tune them, so it's like, "my saw is hard to start, but I don't know how to file the teeth" kinda 'thang, IMO. :p (couldn't help but stick my tongue out at those folks. :rolleyes: )

I actually like the older IT style saw, before Pete Taran sold off to LN, and those saws show a handcrafted quality about them, which I like. But I couldn't find one for sale, and the ones that were for sale were going for more than a LN.

I have a couple saws Mike Wenzloff made for me which I really like a lot, I would highly reccomend those, and especially the kits which you can finish yourself.

I once asked about vintage saws, but it seemed you didn't have much interest in them. :confused:

[Brian Hale]

Maurice, i was that close to ordering the LN saw but opted for the Odate instead. (it'll be here tomorrow :D )

The Takumi Dozuki (from Woodcraft) is horrible for dovetail or any rip work in hardwoods but will crosscut reasonable well, leaving a fairly smooth finish. I'll keep it.

If your going to get the LN, check out the 20% off deal at Highland Hardware, details in the thread in the General Woodworking forum. Tomorrow is the last day for the deal!

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=37272

Brian :)

[James Mittlefehldt]

My .02.

I have tried the Lie Nielson a couple of times at woodworking shows, under the guidance of Rob Cosman. I ended up buying a Pax from Lee Valley, at nearly half the price. For what it's worth while I did not mind the saw I did not see anything about it that would in my opinion justify the high price as compared to some of the alternatives.

I think to I prefer the closed handle as well.

[Maurice Metzger]

Me, not interested? That was a poor choice of words on my part. It's all interesting. The details of Mike W's saws, the the old machines being resurrected in General Woodworking, the log house someone is building in Maine, etc.

I should have written "not interested in using right now". Time is limited, and if I can make progress and put off learning how to sharpen saws, I will. If you saw my dining room table, you'd understand the urgency :) .

One thing I like about pull saws is the narrowness of the kerf. If the LN works well at 0.15", that's pretty good. I may not necessarily buy one, but it is interesting.

Maurice

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I don't have the straight-handled one, but I do have the open-handled one and find it quite a useful little saw.

[Alan DuBoff]

I should have written "not interested in using right now". Time is limited, and if I can make progress and put off learning how to sharpen saws, I will. If you saw my dining room table, you'd understand the urgency :) .Understood. I'd offer to send a backsaw to you in return for the No 92 I got from you. ;) I have quite a few vintage saws, many of them are excellent.

One thing I like about pull saws is the narrowness of the kerf. If the LN works well at 0.15", that's pretty good. I may not necessarily buy one, but it is interesting.I think the LN is 0.020", and it has 0.003 set on each side to make a 0.026" cut. Adria has a slightly less kerf as it uses less set, as I recall.

I agree the kerf is narrow on the dozukis, but that doesn't help accuracy, and in some ways makes it more difficult to cut straight in certain hardwoods.

Some folks prefer a larger, coarser toothed saw, than one I prefer. Some like a 12" or even 14" blade. I prefer an 8" saw that is about 0.020 or so with minimal set, and a 1.5"-1.75" blade depth. This is for joinery using up to 6/4 stock. 8/4 stock can be done with this type of saw, but a small tenon saw is preferred (at least I prefer a larger saw for that). Much of my joinery will be cut on 4/4 stock though. Saws are like chisels and planes, and it's a sacrifice to have but one, IMO.

BTW, would love to hear about your log home in Maine, I have plans for a log home myself and can't wait to be able to work on it, but I'm a ways from getting my foundation in and the shell built (I'm planning on a handcrafted). PM me and maybe I can help you out on a western style saw at the same time. ;)

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Alan, the LN straight-handled dt saw is .015" with .003" set per side...

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Hi Alan, the LN straight-handled dt saw is .015" with .003" set per side...I stand corrected then, I hadn't checked that out in quite a while. I thought it was the same blade, but obviously not if it's 0.015". I've heard good things about the gent's style saw LN sells, but if I was going to select a gent's saw, I'd go with the Grammercy which Schwartz speaks so highly of. I'd certainly entertain that thought. ;)

Now, if Wenzloff & Sons were to come out with a decent gent's saw that had a nice hardwood handle on it, well, that's might be a thought to entertain as well. :p

[Brent Smith]

I have both the closed and straight handled LNs. I find the straight handled saw works best in woods 1/2" and thinner. As far as starting the cut, the trick with it is to let the saw do the work. To me, this is evident in the handle, it's not designed to apply any downward pressure, just to guide the cut. A closed handled saw allows for some downward pressure during the cut.

Brent

[Mike Wenzloff]

Maybe with an Olive handle, Alan? I am making one from .020" for someone in the next week. But I think it will be a one-off. We'll see how it turns out for both parties before I will commit.

And I might try making one a little different if I get the time. Details will happen if I get a tuit.

Take care, Mike

[Alan Turner]

I have the LN Gents saw, and I too think it is a bit thin in the blade. Mike W. might be a place to take a look, however.

[Alan DuBoff]

Maybe with an Olive handle, Alan?Hard to say ( hardwood pun there for 'ya ;) )

Trying to offer an opinion on a saw I haven't seen would be ludicrous, wouldn't it?

Maybe you'll need to send it my way, just so that I will know for certain...LOL! :p

I am making one from .020" for someone in the next week. But I think it will be a one-off. We'll see how it turns out for both parties before I will commit.I think .020" would be good, although the Disston 68 was about .018" (??? memory fails me), and I like them a LOT. In fact, if you can find a Disston 68, I think they're fine gent saws. The older style with the brass plated back and shorter ferrel are the ones I like.

And I might try making one a little different if I get the time. Details will happen if I get a tuit.Speaking for myself, I would prefer to see a handle on a gent's saw which was done with rasps and sand paper, rather than a lathe. While I think one could come up with as nice or nicer of a handle on the lathe as the LN gent saw has, I think a rasp would offer a softer, more inviting handle. I 'spose I differntiate between soft and smooth, for myself, and the LN handle while smooth, it's not soft to me.

[Maurice Metzger]

Brian, that's very useful info, thanks! Rather than make any snap saw decisions I think I will use that for a Hock blade.

Maurice

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I have one and use it all the time on small thin wood. When you work with thin pieces of brittle wood like Paduk or Jatoba, a thin fine tooth blade works best. I don't use it on furniture size pieces of wood as I find a more traditional size blade works better. I guess I thik of it as a specialty saw, kinda a large Zona type saw, but well worth the price.

[Derek Cohen]

I have several saws that I can and do use for dovetails. Yes, I have the LN IT Dovetail saw and, while it cuts better every time I use it, it has not been an easy saw to come to terms with. It is hard to start, even when I get the angle and pressure right. The best thing about it, aside from being a good-looking saw, is that it cuts straight. To be honest, if I had to choose a dovetail saw where the big bucks were riding on the outcome of the cut, it would be my old, restored John Cotterill, which cost $10 and for which I filed the teeth. It is sweet and predictable.

I have a few Dozukis, including the Z-saw and the Veritas rip. The Z-saw is just wonderful - accurate and balanced. The problem is that it is better suited to soft woods only. Which is why I also have Western backsaws.

I just don't get the obsession with fine kerfs in dovetail saws. The only reason for a fine kerf is that it would cut more easily in hardwood. It should not cut more accurately - that is down to the set. So .15 or .20, what is the difference? I have cut fine dovetails with my 14" Nurse tenon saw.

I have a Crown gents saw. Once I stoned the set it cut beautifully. I use it for delicate rip cuts only. I have come to the conclusion that a straight handle is better suited to being pulled, as in a Japanese saw, where a straight handle suits pulling a saw and feels perfectly natural. Used in a Western saw, where it is pushed, it does not drive the cut forward <I>and</I> down. It lacks drive and power.

If I were considering a LN or Adria dovetail saw, I would get one of Mike's saws. No question. Not only are they beautiful, and will be collectable, but he understands filing and the needs of the weekend warrior.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alan DuBoff]

I had started to post last night and my browser crashed for some reason, and I was lazy. One thing not mentioned in this thread is in regard to a gent's saw handle, or shall we say a straight handle is...I personally find it difficult to control a gent's saw in any stock larger than 4/4, and a 6/4 piece is difficult for me to keep the blade from twisting as I cut at times. Hardwoods seem to enhance that at times, but not always.

I suspect this is why LN makes the gent's saw out of .015" steel rather than the .020" steel, one would have to think they did this to be used on thinner stock.

I have a pair of Disston 68s, and I find them to be wonderful saws. I keep them in my usable saws because I believe there is joinery which a smaller, more delicate saw, is a better choice. I have 2 because I believe that in the best world, a rip and a crosscut is needed depending on the cut in relation to the grain.

Many people make a gent's saw their primary joinery saw, and there is no question it works well and cuts most excellent when sharpened properly. It's odd to me that there was not more Disston 70s (pistol grip), and there were so many Disston 68s sold.

The Crown gent's saw is pretty close to the Disston 68, and why I used it at one time to make a saw. The saws that Mike Wenzloff made for me are designed from elements I like of dovetail saws, and while I would have picked 17 points like the Disston, I picked 16 points as that was the highest Mike's retoothing machine can cut. It works out just fine.

Any saw can be changed to accomodate your personal style. The LN saws can have the rake changed, the set changed, and even the coarsness of the teeth. It seems that folks use them as-is in most cases and get used to the quirks. LN saws are excellent, as are most all of the saws manufactured today by hand, and all offer something that the others don't. Choice is good afterall.

LeifH, for instance is able to create a more flamboyant handle, than others. The excentuation of the horns and softness of the grip look exceptional (I haven't used one, only have seen them). MikeW has been able to build a wide variety of styles, and handles to me are very clean and well proportioned. Mike has an excellent eye for the proportions. Neither are short of a handcrafted design. The Adria is also a decent looking saw, starting to get less handcrafted though, as is the LN even more so.

It's very refreshing to see Mike making saws in styles that were close to forgotten in some cases (half back, No 9, et al). It's good to see Leif making saws again. I would not hesitate to approach either to have a gent's saw made, I believe both could and would make an excellent gent saw.

This is changing the way folks look at joinery and/or western style saws, IMO. Choice is good, and it's good to have some with hand saws again.

[Maurice Metzger]

Now now, patience Derek. The loaded term hand grenade usually gets thrown much later in the thread. I'm obsessed with many things, but not with any part of woodworking.

There's a certain existential quality to this Internet discussion thing. We're like strangers in a small room together. My mind works in messy ways. I throw out ideas, ask questions, and I might or might not take action on the ideas or the answers to the questions. Or I might buy a saw and dislike it on sight. Whatever the voices tell me.

Anyway, thanks to all for the input, it's all grist for the mill.

Maurice

[Harold Beck]

I have the straight handled saw and love it. With that said, it did take some getting used to. I usually only use it for less than 1" thick cuts (although I have cut some small tenon cheeks with it at about 1 1/2"). The biggest thing to know it that you can"t horse it around. No downward pressure and no trying to use a little body english on a cut that didn't get started quite right.
But it does cutt VERY smooth.
HB