Hi, new to the forum, seems like lots of good info... i have a quick question

[eddie bee]

I'm glad i found this board. Not sure where i should post or the best places to read up on and learn.

i am just getting into this stuff and i think i bit off way more then i can chew, but when 3 different places wanted over $6000 to make the closets i wanted, i decided i could do it myself, since the cost of the materials seem like it would be 1K at most.

wow is this stuff hard! everyone on here seems really skilled and now i feel like a doofus for building something i had no business trying to build.

i am going to take some pics when i get home tonight... i know you are all going to laugh, but i have built a custom built in closet with sliding drawers beneath it.

I bought a few "3/4x20x96" pine solid wood sheets form Lowe's for $35 bucks each (i used these to make the sides. I cut a piece from the same wood for the top and i made one top shelf 12 inches from the top. I also had 2 pieces cut to fit inside the sides, and they act as a separator for where the drawers start and finish

so everything was going fine i erected the built in shell and fastened it into the wall with heavy duty "L" brackets and secured it into the wall.

I build my own drawers out of 3/4 inch birch plywood and i simply pre-drilled holes and screwed everything in, with a wood finishing screw.

now for the hard part, i wanted full extension drawer slides, so i left 1 inch of room in my design and thought i measured everything out, but when i put the drawers in, they dont slide that well or line up as well as i would like (off by 1/8 in some places)... it was also a real pain getting the slides into place and then screwing them into the drawer, and getting that to all be level...

any advice or tips would be great... i know its hard without pics, and i will get those up soo... but i have 2 other closets to build and i'm not looking forward to it

[Steve Clardy]

Welcome to the forum Eddie!!!

Sounds like you got tight drawers!! Lol

Take the slides off the drawers, raise your table saw blade up to where the top of the slide sat, and remove say a 1/16" off the side of your drawer. Remove screws, etc first

[Kent Fitzgerald]

Hi, Eddie, and welcome!

The most likely cause of drawer misalignment is a case that isn't square. You can check by measuring the diagonals. The panels may not have been perfectly flat to begin with, and the cuts from the panel saw at Lowes could be off a bit. Small errors add up, and as you've found, full-extension side-mount slides are finicky about alignment.

So what to do now? Having built some unintentionally trapezoidal cases myself, I will be the first to argue that there ain't no shame in shimming. Loosen up the mounting screws and see if the drawers slide freely. If so, add shims where needed between the slides and case. If you can't get the side mount slides satisfactory, bottom-mount slides are much more forgiving, but you would probably lose the full extension.

Some tips that may help in the future:

Spacer blocks really help to set the vertical position of the slides.

If you're using side mount slides, you might want to make the case 1/8 or 1/4" wider than necessary, and then uses spacers or shim to fit.

Slides usually have oval holes that allow some adjustment. I generally use the horizontal holes on the case, and the vertical holes on the drawer. When everything is dialed in, add some more screws in the round holes to lock it in.

[eddie bee]

i am comforted to hear that being off by a few mm is normal. i think since the drawers are so big that any little miscalculation gets amplified. they are all 39.5 inches wide for a 40.5 inch opening and 18 inches deep and the biggest one is 10 inches high.

i think it was an overkill to get 100lbs test for a drawer that at most would hold 20 pounds of clothes.

i need to find a more accurate way to get this entire thing assembled
my current method is:
Cut all the lumber, pre-drill and screw the drawer box together (this process is fairly accurate as all the cuts are precise... the screwing together does shift some pieces slightly but not enough to matter).

next i take the drawer slide and pre-drill holes on the drawer BUT I DONT SCREW IT IN.

I measure and level a line in the Assembly and screw in the slides... then since i have the drawer with pre-drilled holes that i know are level and in the right place i screw in the drawer.

I am a perfectionist so i'm hoping someone can help me improve this as the slides and drawer are not as smooth as i like...

[eddie bee]

yes i do notice that when i loosen the screws it slides much better... i should probably use some washers to build it out.

I noticed that when i tightened everything the slides and the drawer seem to be fighting with each other...

i was worried when i made my cuts that it would be too wide, and that the slides wouldn't have any room, so why do you suggest going wider?

i will measure everything up tonight and see if its square, i will also try to post pictures

thx again, i'm glad to have found a board with such knowledgeable people, only hope i can contribute and gives something in return.

i have a new found respect for carpenters... looking back i think the 6grand is a good price!

[Kent Fitzgerald]

i was worried when i made my cuts that it would be too wide, and that the slides wouldn't have any room, so why do you suggest going wider?
Maybe the terminology isn't clear - by case, I mean the big box into which the drawers fit. So, make case wider or the drawers narrower.

[David Eisenhauer]

I have found that the more expensive drawer slides work better and offer more adjustment to get lined up. Someone else already recomended using a spacer board to help line up the drawers vertically. In other words, use a piece of scrap cut to the width you want that is to be temporarilly placed in the bottom of the cabinet (against the side) and provide a temporary ledger to rest the drawer slide on while you screw it in place. Use to screw holes that allow adjustment. If you are using the corner-wrap styles slides, then wrap the bottom corner with the slide as directed. If you are using a "middle of the drawer side" type slide, then create a ledger for use when installing the drawer half of the slides as well. Measuring sucks and will burn you most often than not. As already mentioned, out-of-square carcases (the big box the drawers go in) result in drawers that bind and not flush to the opening. Use the cabinet back to square the basic box up when you install it. I don't know what tools/equipment you are using, so it is harder to suggest cabinet(box, carcase) techniques. Finally, there are numerous books with excellant written and illustrated instructions for most of these tasks. Try Taunton Press (Fine Woodworking Magazine) for something that looks like you might want to read. Some author's names that come to mind are Jim Toplin, and/or maybe Danny Prouloux (sp?). The rest of the crowd can chime in with specific titles/authors for better info. Read a book(s) before you start the second one and then get started. It will go better and the next even better. No one is born with the knowledge.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

yes i do notice that when i loosen the screws it slides much better... i should probably use some washers to build it out.
I noticed that when i tightened everything the slides and the drawer seem to be fighting with each other...

Sounds like there may also be a straightness or flatness issue. If the slides are being twisted or bent around a curve on the board comprising the side of the drawer they will bind.


i was worried when i made my cuts that it would be too wide, and that the slides wouldn't have any room, so why do you suggest going wider?
Not wanting to speak for Steve. When I read your original post it seemed to me that nothing suggested that you had in fact obtained the extra room you planed on having. In fact you seemed to be suggesting that in spite of measuring and planning it worked out differently. The logical "other" might well be tighter. At least that's what I came away with.

[eddie bee]

yes i measured everything out, and i thought i had planned but things came up that i didnt know how to address... like lining up the drawer front with the cabinet opening... right now i gave about 1/2 inch set back as i assume that the drawer front will stop the drawer.

another issue is the drawer slides have a lock feature (when they are completely re-tracted they sorta snap closed) this is not at the same point when closing the drawer on both sides...

again, i can wait to get pictures up so u guys can critique my work

[Bob Childress]

Welcome to the Creek, Eddie! I'm pretty new here myself but this forum is full of folks who know what they are doing (I am not necessarily one of them).

Now first, don't be too hard on yourself. Many of us got started not because we wanted to be artistic, but we wanted to save some money and have the satisfaction. We all have to start somewhere.

Now then, take a deep breath and relax. This will all work out. As I read your posts I can almost picture what is going wrong. Though some may disagree with me, I think appoaching woodworking like a science ("all the cuts were precise," "I made all the cuts first") is a recipe for problems, unless you are a production cabinet maker. For example, I quit cutting all the "parts" at once a long time ago. One error on an early "part" gets multiplied ten times over later on. Instead, think about approaching the project as a constant "work in progress." Your closet project is really a box with stuff added, right? You cut the standards (sides), you check them. Are they exactly the same width? Height? Square? If not, fix it right then, not when you discover it later. Then the cross pieces. Check them and fix. Not exactly 45 inches wide? So what, as long as they are both 44 7/8 inches wide. Same with the drawers, for instance. Cut your openings and measure three times. Then build the drawers to fit what you have, not what you thought you were "supposed" to have.

David had a great idea. Back off, read, study, watch Norm Abram, whatever. That's exactly what I had to do several years back when I was getting your results. But even then, things won't be perfect, so forgive yourself and think "better luck next time." :)

(On a more specific note, if indeed the drawers are binding because too tight, do like Steve said and remove 1/16 of material on each side. I did the same thing recently using a hand planer instead of the table saw.)

Better post some pics soon or the pic police will get you!

[Bob Childress]

Hi again Eddie,

As I reviewed your posts one more time I also noticed a couple of things that may be contributing to your problems:


You do not mention glue or dados or rabbets or anything except screws. Are the drawers butt jointed with screws only holding them together? Drawers that size, that technique will never work. What about the drawer bottoms? How are they fastened? Screws only into end grain ply is not a good idea.
You said you thought 100 lb load was "overkill" for 20 pounds of clothes. But the drawers, that size especially, weigh plenty. Never mind the clothes, the slides have to support the drawer.
You say you fastened the "shell" to the wall with heavy-duty L-brackets. Does that mean there is no back on the case? That will be tough to get square, although it can be done.
I am betting you used a level a lot to decide that things were square and plumb. Except there are hardly any walls that are square and plumb, so the errors on the wall transfer to your shell that you just fastened to the wall. That's why God invented shims.Just some food for thought. It will all work out in the end. Keep smilin':D

[eddie bee]

here are some things i noticed... yes everything appears to be square... while the drawer is level in-terms of the tilt from right to left it is not level front to back... which must mean the drawer slide is at a very slight tilt.

This is frustrating since i drew a level line for the screws that hold the slide.

I'm sure there is a better way but YES i put everything together with screws... its the only way i know how, and i did pre-drill to avoid shifting/ splitting...

here are the pictures (GRRRRR why wont it let me upload pictures?)
when i hit the upload button it says the page is currently unavialable and that the site maybe having problems any suggestions... i really want to get these pics up

[Steve Clardy]

Keep trying Eddie. They'll load eventually. Stuff happens.

What size of pics? Did you reduce them to 100k or less?

Don't do a preview after they load. They won't show up on your end while previewing.

[eddie bee]

ok i took some detailed shots so you could hopefully see what i was talkingabout and what i was trying to do...

I set the drawers back relying on the fact that when i add the drawer fronts, those will act as a closing stop, but then i guess i loose the lock feature when the slides are fully contracted (hope that made sense) (reference picture apt 007)

also one of the detailed shot of just the slide is to show that it does not lock closed while the other side is (i guess this means that the slide is too far back???)(reference picture apt 010)

The first picture (reference apt 004) is to show that it is not against any wall, so there is no issue that the wall is not straight, and this also shows how i secured it to the wall with "L" hinges (since the floor is not straight)... so the whole assembily is kinda lifted off the floor to ensure that it is level...

Thanks again for the responses, and if you need more pictures just ask, this is a huge help to me

[eddie bee]

last few

hope these help, because i have two more closets to build and i have a feeling i have a lot to learn

[Steve Clardy]

Ok. First from what I see, you have no cabinet back. Using a cabinet back squares up the carcass.
No need to put one on now though, just make sure that with it sitting there attached, level, that the carcass is square.
This can cause drawer binding.

I see your slides are not mounted to the very front of cabinet, and on the drawer. These normally mount flush with drawer, cabinet.

1 Drawer locks on one side, not the other. This tell me either the carcass is out of square, or the drawer box is out of square.

Have you stapled, nailed, screwed the back of the bottom [1/4"] to the back of the drawer yet?
If it is screwed on, remove the screws from the bottom of that drawer that the catch
catches one side. Put it back in, push one side or the other in. This aligns the drawer square with the slides.
Slowly pull it out, note how much the bottom is off the the back of the drawer. 1/8'? Reattach the bottom with it being off.

Another, remove one drawer, takes the slide off the drawer sides, slip those into the cabinet. Measure across between the slides. Measure your drawer width. You should have 1/32 to 1/16 difference. Drawer box should be less.

[eddie bee]

so i have to re screw the slides so that they are square with the edge of the unit.

2: i have to unscrew the bottom of the drawer (u really think unscreing the bottom will help me square the drawer?)

I have screwed everything in, no nails or glue or fancy dovetail...

as of now everything works fine, i just want to try to make it perfect

[Steve Clardy]

How did you make, attach the bottoms? Are the bottoms in a groove on the drawer sides?
If they are, which is standard, loosing the rear of bottom lets you rack the drawer square, out of square.

[David Eisenhauer]

Deep breath now - Most likely this thing isn't going to come out perfect. Do try and do your best, but be prepared for a somewhat less than perfect result. This is your first try and, apparently, you didn't have much experience or info to go on. The thing is hidden in a closet, you have a couple more to get better on. Right now, Steve and others are trying to help you get through the first one, but don't even think they will let you go again the very same way on the next one. Can you please list what tools and/or extra materials you have available to work with?

[Steve Clardy]

Slides mounted flush to front.

[eddie bee]

i have the basic tools, nothing fancy to make tracks or dovetails with.
these closets are stand up units that i am building in my bedroom, its not exactly hidden.

i do need to make two more before the weekend, at least that was my goal. i have the wood cut by lowes, and for adjustments i use my circular saw or a jig. pre-drilling the holes does help so that things dont shift much.

i will make the changes to this set up, what should i do going forward.

again, my method is to:

errect the structure without the drawers...
measure out everything, cut and pre-drill then screw everything together (these are standard peices of 3/4 inch thick birch plywood for the drawers, and 3/4 inch solid pine wood for the main body).

i pre-drill my drawer slide holes and then continue to assemble

i'm not sure whatelse i can do with the tools i have handy

my floor, walls and pretty much everything is not straight or level, this is a pre-war apt and nothing seems to line up.

i did make sure that all the stuff i built was level and as even as possible

[Steve Clardy]

Hey Eddie. Do you have a framing square to check things with.
We haven't determined if carcass, drawers are square.
12" long on one end, 24" long on the other end.
Construction methods for first time are fine, but need to square things as you go.

[Larry Cooke]

Hey Eddie. Do you have a framing square to check things with.
We haven't determined if carcass, drawers are square.
12" long on one end, 24" long on the other end.
Construction methods for first time are fine, but need to square things as you go.Steve, it looks like the main cabinet isn't square. Almost looks like the right panel is proud of the left panel. You're definately on the right track regarding things being square. Of course looking at a photo is tough so...

He mentioned that the walls aren't plumb, I fear that by building it against the wall (using that for reference) may be a problem overall. I'm almost betting that putting a square on the shelf above the drawers will tell the story...

Next checking for the drawers being square of course. Anyhow you're doing an excellent job and I didn't mean to intrude, just had to thow my .01 cents worth in. (I'm not worthy of .02 yet...) :)

Larry

[Steve Clardy]

Steve, it looks like the main cabinet isn't square. Almost looks like the right panel is proud of the left panel. You're definately on the right track regarding things being square. Of course looking at a photo is tough so...

He mentioned that the walls aren't plumb, I fear that by building it against the wall (using that for reference) may be a problem overall. I'm almost betting that putting a square on the shelf above the drawers will tell the story...

Next checking for the drawers being square of course. Anyhow you're doing an excellent job and I didn't mean to intrude, just had to thow my .01 cents worth in. (I'm not worthy of .02 yet...) :)

Larry

Not a problem. We're all here to help each other out.:)
I'll go back and look at the pics again.
I'm about fuzzed out for the night. Eyelids trying to slam shut------

[eddie bee]

yes the bottoms are screwed in... everything is screwed together... its the only way i know how to make something.

the tools i have are limited, but i can always rent/buy something i need to get the job done right.

i basically cut all the wood first, screwed together the boxes (left 1 inch for the slides)

pre-drilled all holes and measured and leveled everything... then screwed the slides into the body, and then attached the drawer boxes to the slides last.... which was very difficult because i had to get a little hand screw-driver to secure the side by the wall, there was no room.

i will check again to see if its square, but i really think its all within 1/8th of tolerance (is that too much? if so, how do i get more accurate with my method of screwing in? how shoudl i do the next one?)

my next question is, should i have gotten slides that can come off (in-case i ever need to take the drawers out... these slides do not disconnect).

also, for ordering the drawer fronts, how much clearance should i leave?

thx, great advice so far, i realize i have to go back and do a lot of work... sucks how much time it takes

[Steve Clardy]

Ok. First us talk about your drawer slides.
You installed them without taking them apart?
Those are full extension ball bearing slides.
They do come apart.
Normal installation. Take them apart.
Extend them all the way. See that little black lever about mid way?
Push it one way or another. The drawer piece comes out of the carcass piece.

With some tweaking of your drawers, slides I think you'll be ok.
I'm on the house computer now.
I'll get out to the shop computer, post a few more drawer slide pics, etc for you to see.
On the vanity pic I posted, can you see the block of wood with orange clamp at the left bottom rear?
That is used as a spacer to align drawer slide to carcass.

I'll be back.
Steve

[Steve Clardy]

Which style of slide do you have?
Heres the normal 2.
One has a button type release.
Other has a lever release.
Take your drawers out.
Check all carcass slide alignment. Use a scrap of wood to align. Start with the top, work your way down.

[eddie bee]

i didnt know i could take them apart... well i tried and failed so i put the drawers in while someone held them for me to find the pre-drilled holes...

it was not easier, i have to find a way to get them apart... i will most likely take the whole thing down and start again:mad:

[Steve Clardy]

Be persistant. You'll make it Eddie.

[eddie bee]

i wish you were in NYC

[Steve Clardy]

Do a member search eddie. Richard Wolf is around there somewhere. Couple of others I think.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?find=lastposter&t=23192

[Don Baer]

Steve is correct and Richard is also on the mentor list. He is on Long Island.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/mentors.html

[eddie bee]

does it matter where on the drawer the slide gets mounted (bottom, middle or top?)

and how much room/ clearance should i leave for the drawer fronts (eg i have 4 drawers, that i in theory, let an inch and a half of room for... was supposed to be 1/2 inch blow and 1 inch above, but it doesn't always work out that way

[Steve Clardy]

I usually mount the drawer part a 1/4" up from the bottom.

In between the drawer fronts?
Put the bottom front on, then cut you a 1/8" scrap of something, and lay on top of that drawer front. Stack the next front on the scrap, attach, etc etc etc.

[eddie bee]

so i want to know what size

i am getting 1 front 6 inches by 42
2 fronts 8 inches by 42
and 1 front 10 inches by 42... so i should subtract 1/8 off each front for clearance.

I am also ordering 2 doors for the top part (60 inches high by 21 inches wide) i have a few quotes, any suggestions on who to buy from?

[eddie bee]

so i spent about 2 hours!, yes two hours just getting the first top drawer all lined up and level. here is the mystery that i can not solve.

all measurements line up and everything is level... the slides are exactly at the end of the drawer and in place at the end of the frame.

when the drawer is completely pulled out, it seems like one side can extend about 1/8 of an inch further, and this creates a very slight wobble when completely opened if you try to shake the drawer.

a better way to describe it, is that one slide is completely extended and the other side has about 1/8'' left to go.

i measured the drawer body and all the pieces together measure up exactly, but the diagonal does seem to be off by about a 1/16'' which i thought was acceptable.

do you think this could be causing it?
its odd because before when it was all messed up and un-even, the drawer was still level and the slide worked great.

suggestions comments?

i will take new pics

[Bob Childress]

Eddie,

Yes the 1/16th off could be part of it. Also you may have a slight rack in the drawer since the bottom is screwed/nailed directly to the sides. But 1/8 inch wobble is no big deal and personally I wouldn't sweat it. With the drawers filled and under normal usage, you will probably never notice it. Just my opinion.

[Steve Clardy]

Yes. The 1/16 off in the drawer will cause one side not to fully extend.
Like Bob, I wouldn't worry about.

Yer making headway!!!

[Steve Clardy]

so i want to know what size

i am getting 1 front 6 inches by 42
2 fronts 8 inches by 42
and 1 front 10 inches by 42... so i should subtract 1/8 off each front for clearance.

I am also ordering 2 doors for the top part (60 inches high by 21 inches wide) i have a few quotes, any suggestions on who to buy from?

Yes the gap needs to be accounted for.

You could just take that 3/8" or so, total amount of gaps, off of one drawer front. Just lay them out and see where they come out on your carcass front.

No suggestions on where to buy your doors.

[eddie bee]

the bottom is just 1/4'' birch plywood screwed into the drawer frame... all the cuts on the drawer are dead on, but it is somehow slightly out of square...

everyone tells me i should just live with it, since everything else is perfect now and deadon...

but if there is a good way to remedy this problem i will

2 hours on 1 drawer tho... hope this gets faster, i still have two more closets to build...

oh and any advice on where to buy drawer fronts and if its cool to just screw them in as i see fit?

[Steve Clardy]

On the drawer that one of the slides do not pull out completely, you could move one side of the slide to the back, front of the carcass, or on the drawer itself.

I screw all my drawer fronts on, from the inside of the box into the front.