Viewpoints Please!

[Jason Solodow]

Hey Creekers-
I haven't posted in awhile, between moving into an apartment right before the holidays followed shortly by a lathe that spun it's last, I haven't had anything to post about. Still been reading the posts though. Now however, I need some input, advice, or a good swift kick in the butt.
The LOML and I have been kicking around the idea of buying a house, but just aren't sure yet. We started browsing the web and looked at some houses online, found one that looked intriguing so we went to see it. Here's the scoop on it...It's a Nationally Registered Historic Home that is need of rescue/restoration. It was built in 1898, and has some really awesome appeal. However, like I said, it needs restoration. Fairly major restoration...Almost all of it I am capable of doing myself, such as cabinets, moulding, new doors, windows, and a new porch. There are a few things I would contract out (new heating, chimney needs to be rebricked, yada yada yada)... Anyway, it's about 3000 sq ft, plus full basement, and full attic, plus detached two car garage. Asking price is $42,500. I'm really seriously thinking about buying it, but I'm not really sure if I it would be a good idea... Not even sure why I think that.. LOML is all for it... Any suggestions, pointers, or the like?

[Lee DeRaud]

Please tell me there's a zero missing off that price.:eek:

I know most housing markets aren't like the one here, but unless there's something seriously wrong with that house (like it's located 100 feet off the end of an airport runway), I think you'd be stupid not to buy it.

[Steve Clardy]

If you do, just ask yourself if you are ready for all the work. LOng hours after work, putting up with things undone, etc.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The price is not bad.............(Lee not everybody lives in the California artificially inflated economy) BUT............how strict are the restoration guidelines and who enforces then?

That kind of work can be a head ache as well as a back ache and a hit on the budget.


If everything checks out and you still want to do it and the LOYL approves...............

[Jerry Olexa]

My SIL and I just redid an older home a few years ago but it was tons of work but also satisfying and fun. We added a bath, redid totally the kitchen, took down load bearing wall and put in a beam, put down new floor upstairs, redid MBR totally, repaired roof, much rewiring, much landscaping, much painting. They sold the home last year and made about $90K which they needed for the 2nd home.
First thing I always check is the Foundation and then heat, wiring, etc Also think of the Time and $ needed to bring it up to standard. I'd say go but inspect the house carefully. Thats a great price I think...

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Go rent the movie the Money Pit, watch it and see how hard you laugh :D

I'm not kidding rent the movie, it is funny, but they deal with what you are going to try to do.

Having you house is a constant state of repair for a number of years can be really hard on the marriage, so think about it.

Cheers!

[Jim Becker]

Whether it's a good idea or not is really based on both the property AND you/the LOYL's ability to live long term in a constant project. Some people thrive in that environment; some do not. It's not just about money, although that can also be a factor, especially if you must follow any specific guidelines due to the historical registry situation. Do your homework and get professional advise on the property.

[Allen Bookout]

Go rent the movie the Money Pit, watch it and see how hard you laugh :D

I'm not kidding rent the movie, it is funny, but they deal with what you are going to try to do.

Having you house is a constant state of repair for a number of years can be really hard on the marriage, so think about it.

Cheers!
That is really wild! I just sit down and turned on the TV, flipped through a couple of channels and there it was-----The Money Pit.

Makes me nervous thinking about watching it knowing about rebuilding old things. I refurbished one old small house while we were living there and never again for me. We also had to redo a good bit of our current house after Hurricane Charlie and that was no fun either.

Well Jason, I have only watched a few minutes of it but I think that Stu is right. You had better have a look before you make up your mind.

I hope that others come up with more positive vibes than I am giving off but I just cannot seem to help it.

Good Luck!

Allen

[Ian Barley]

No comment from me on the price - but - I have done a similar project a long time ago. It can be hard work. The main drag is living in a building site, maybe for years. Make sure that you are really ready for this. Spend a week in your apartment without access to a shower or bathtub and see how you cope. Then multiply the frustration by three and see how you feel. That is exactly the sort of thing you both need to be ready to deal with.

I would (will) do it again one day but have always said that I would not get involved in a "listed" building. There is enough restriction around house construction without having somebody wearing sandals and cheesecloth telling me what colour I am allowed to paint the front door.

Oh - and Stu is right - rent The Money Pit.

[Tony Falotico]

...It's a Nationally Registered Historic Home that is need of rescue/restoration.

My biggest concern would be how much restriction will be put on the restoration of YOUR home ?? How much power does the National Registry / locals have in dictating what you can and can't do. I would check that out VERY carefully before proceeding. I honestly do not know the answers, but once they are registered there are restrictions on how much ALTERATION can be done. There is a difference between RESTORATION and ALTERATION, and if you are restricted to just RESTORATION you may not be able to do everything you want your way. Sorry if I'm just blowing smoke here, I don't know the regulations in your area, I'm just saying Check it out carefully BEFORE signing the dotted line. .

[Tim Morton]

My biggest concern would be how much restriction will be put on the restoration of YOUR home ?? How much power does the National Registry / locals have in dictating what you can and can't do. I would check that out VERY carefully before proceeding. I honestly do not know the answers, but once they are registered there are restrictions on how much ALTERATION can be done. There is a difference between RESTORATION and ALTERATION, and if you are restricted to just RESTORATION you may not be able to do everything you want your way. Sorry if I'm just blowing smoke here, I don't know the regulations in your area, I'm just saying Check it out carefully BEFORE signing the dotted line. .
Very True...but on the other hand, being on the national registry would make the house MUCH more valuable once it is done. Can you talk to people who have done a renovation of a similar comp in your area to get a feel for how "restricted" it will be for you?

[Tony Falotico]

Also, in the mid 1900's it was common to use asbestos as an additive in lath and plaster walls and ceilings (DAMHIKT), I don't know if asbestos was used in the late 1800's --------- BUT, Asbestos removal (done properly) starts at expensive and quickly approaches outrageous..... Something else to check out and consider. And remember, If it's on the National Registry there will be MANY eyes closely watching you.

If cost is the factor attracting you, my gut feeling would be run away as fast as you can... DO NOT look back !! You could easily end up with $250 - $500 thousand or more invested before it's over. Remember in 1898, it probably did not have electric, indoor plumbing, A/C or a whole lot (if any) insulation. Does it need to be re-wired?? If the electric was put in pre-1950 (or there abouts) it most likely has wrapped (paper?) covering, or should I say HAD, and will need to be replaced. Or maybe it was aluminum (popular back in the late 60's - early 70's) All was added later, and much rigging and patching probably took place.

My son and I tried the same thing a few years back (it was built in 1940 and not on any registry), I honestly have to say it is one project that totally whooped my butt BIG TIME. Seemed every time we touched something two other things next to it fell apart. I really don't mean to be a stick in the mud here, but proceed with extreme caution and whatever you think your getting into.. DOUBLE !!

[Larry Klaaren]

Please tell me there's a zero missing off that price.:eek:

I know most housing markets aren't like the one here, but unless there's something seriously wrong with that house (like it's located 100 feet off the end of an airport runway), I think you'd be stupid not to buy it.

That probably is the asking price here in Indy for a house in the old city boundaries (before the merger of the city and county) that needs some work. There is quite a bit of grant money available to try and restore some of these neighborhoods. Unfortunately the school situation makes it hard to find families willing to move into the city - a very real factor in reselling.

Larry

[Bill Grumbine]

Jason, SWMBO and I are in our second and last rehab project. In a lot of ways we really enjoy it, but in others it can be a drag. It is an old stone house, somewhere near 200 years, although we cannot be sure yet. It is not part of an historic register, so we are free to do what we want. We are doing it it to bring it back close to what it would have looked like, but with some added features like central air and central vac. They are probably not as intrusive as the cast iron radiators, but we like our modern climate control, such as it is.

But, it is like living in a construction zone, and some things can be put off for years when others come up. If you can handle that and the nosiness of busybodies who will inflict themselves on you to make sure you are doing it right, go for it.

Bill

[Michael Cody]

I take this from a different point of view... I too have learned to hate rehabbing houses(after 3 and a new built) but I am still doing it.. always takes twice as long and 3 times as expensive as you think. But to me the breaker wouldn't be the local historical society of idiots who think using an outhouse somehow makes them better than everyone else, just because it was built in 1796 ... :)

The kicker here is location, location, location... if you drop a hundred grand plus into this structure, almost break up your marriage, put off having kids, deal with the local idiots telling you how to spend your money because they read a book one time, etc.. will you make a big enough profit if you sell to make it worth the risk. Is the neighborhood up and coming? Are other folks fixing up other houses? Is the school system bad, good, or improving, etc? All the things that make someone want to live there. If not then your profit will be suspect and it's not worth the risk. If it is and you can handle the lifestyle and cash -- then jump on it. If not, run away to suburbia. The rest really doesn't make any difference, you can rewire, fix foundations, rebuild walls, fix up plaster, remove asbestos, etc... w/o a problem -- also don't forget lead paint. It just costs money and time, if you stand to make enough on the deal you can be set for a long time(even life) on another house you can buy with the cash you clear and not have to fix up... and not have to pay mortgage on. Think of how much you can do if you have little or no mortgage on your primary residence.. How much debt do you have now, can you clean that up, etc.. as Dave Ramsey says -- sucess is not a BMW in the driveway, it's a paid off mortgage in your hand.

[Dennis Peacock]

Mr. Cody is really making the points I was going to make. I built a house before. I did everything I could to build as much as I could myself. When it came time to move, my asking price was far above the surrounding "averaged out" selling price of homes. We finally sold the house but not after coming off the price of the house significantly.

You need to do a market survery in the neighborhood that the house is in and see what they are selling for now. Use that as your guide to a real decision or not.

A friend of mine in another state did what you are looking at doing. Everything he did to the house had to be submitted to the Histerical (or sorry) Historical Society for approval. It tooks weeks and months to get approval and extended the overall project by 8 years. Took 10 years of constant construction zone to get it done AND it put a HUGE strain on his marriage that almost ended...all because of the house.

Everyone here has given you very good advice....now you have to weigh it all out and make the best decision you can from the information you've been provided. Just remember....It WILL get expensive on you for repairs and fix up. Just be ready. ;)

[Charles McKinley]

After my experiences with my friends money pit old house and my broken foundation new house my question is: "How stupid were the previous owners?"

Is there LAMP CORD run through the walls for wiring?

Is the old electrical hookup on the side of the house still connected and back feeding off knob and tube wiring leaving exposed live wires hanging out?

Is an addition just sitting on the ground rather than an adequate foundation?

Hysterical Commission on a local level is usually a bunch of overbearing busy bodies that are mad drunk on a power trip over what color you can paint your house and trim.

Will there be restrictions on what you can do to the kitchen and bathrooms???? Yes there are places that will go that far.

How many committees will each decision have to go through? This would be a main sticking point. Getting one group of bureaucrats to agree is difficult enough but getting two or more of them on the same page and having it look anything like what you want may be impossible. Remember an elephant is an ant built by committee.

Talk to others in the area that have or are restoring houses and get honest feedback from them.

What will it cost to properly insulate the house? Energy cost for a house like that will be high and it is translating to huge jumps in cost for building materials be sure to factor that into the equation.

Document everything and maybe you can be on one of those renovation shows.

Let us know what you decide. If you go for it have a Creeker work party and we can invade you place and help strip paint or something.

[Larry Klaaren]

There's an article on the abandoned home problem in Indianapolis at http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060529/NEWS01/605290437,.

Lots of homes in the better neighborhoods sell for 60-80 thousand in Indy, less in neighborhoods where there has been abandonment, so you'll need to get some idea what the house could sell for and see how much room you have to improve the house and sell later.

They are anxious to get these houses going. The historical commission probably will not give you much trouble, if you're willing to go for it.

If you read the article, you'll notice the city spent 21.2 million to help 2300 homeowners fix up homes that have been abandoned.

Larry

[Rob Russell]

Jason,

The only comment I'd add to Michael and Dennis' comments is that if you're going to do the rehab, think of the old proverb "In for a penny, in for a pound".

If you decide that the location, neighborhood, school system and all that make the house a desireable project, the next step BEFORE you buy is to check out the restrictions you'll have. My wife and I used to go out to Nantucket Island (off of Cape Cod) every year in the fall as our "big" vacation for the year. We had a really sweet deal on an oceanfront rental that got us out there every year. On Nantucket, the HDC - Historic District Commission - yields supreme power over all building on the island. They can - and do - tell people what they will and will not be allowed to do with their houses. It doesn't matter whether it's a new or old house, the HDC has final say on even small things like the amount of window area and other things that you wouldn't believe. It's not likely that you'll run into the same level of control on this house, but I'd want to check it out first.

If you do decide to buy, my comment would be to gut the inside of the house back to the studs. Even if it is plaster, you can replace that. On a house that old, you really want to be able to get inside the walls to do the plumbing, wiring and quite important - fix any framing hacks that have been done over the years. Watch any series of This Old House when they were doing older homes and you'll almost always see a problem they have to fix because old plumbers cut into framing members in bad ways. Stripping to the walls would allow you to properly reframe, replumb, rewire and reinsulate the house. Once done, if you want plaster back on the walls - nail on the lathe and start slinging plaster. One other major advantage to a strip-style refurb is that you'll get to see any hidden insect or water damage and fix that too.

Just my opinions. Best of luck on your decision and project.

Rob

[Jason Solodow]

Thanks for all the advice.. First off, yes, the asking price is $42,500, it is not on the end of a runway or anything like that. The area it is in is currently being rehabbed by alot of homeowners. Larry, the house is actually in Frankfort, not Indy. Anyway, as far as what I can and can't do because of it being registered, I've already had the local Hysterical Society architect out to inspect it. He said that the renovations I want to do would be acceptable. (namely tearing it down to studs and replacing the wiring, plumbing, and putting up drywall). Basically, all of my proposed renovations would be approved. However, the LOML and I sat down over the weekend and really had a heart-to-heart about the house. While we think it has a great deal of potential and would be alot of fun to restore, with us both working full time and going to school, there is just no way we would have the energy to do it. Between school and such we barely see each other as it is, so we decided that no matter how tempting it is, we must pass on it. :( Oh well, I'm sure another one will come up when we're in a better position to take it. Besides, I want something with more of a yard... Like at least 5 acres... Anyway, thanks for all of your advice and input!

[Larry Klaaren]

Larry, the house is actually in Frankfort, not Indy.

If I can quote Goldie Hawn . . ."Oh . . . Never mind."

At least you have made up your mind. Good luck. There are lots of nice properties around there that are pretty reasonable. You'll find one you'll enjoy.

Larry

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

this is what troubles me: "Nationally Registered Historic Home" Be sure you know fully what that means.

I've restored several ancient homes from Mass to Maine and now I have a 250 year old monster in NJ. Never once did I want a Registered Historic Home because once you do that you are pretty much stuck with these problems:
1.) Substantially lessened say in how you home shall be restored.
2.) Design by committe
3.) More people watching you more closely so you don't dare ever sneak anything past the permit process.
4.) Generally reduces autonomy.
5.) Everything costs more.

It's worse still if any interest in a fee simple ( of any size) has been granted as you can never get it back.

I once considered letting he state dedicate some of my acreage as a wildlife refuge because ofd the substantial tax savings I'd reap. However, rthat requires the cenveyance of a fee simple in the land to the state to permanently require any future owners to keep it as a refuge. I fugure if I want a refuge I'll do it myself and leave the gubbermint out of it.

[Roger Bell]

In terms of "restrictions" on what you can/cannot do with an Historic home, you might best be served by becoming informed on the local governing ordinances. For example, some jursidictions have ordinances that restrict only what can/cannot be done on the exterior of the home and do not affect alterations made inside. Others are far more restrictive. Generally what is/is not permitted is more of a matter of law and codified ordinance than of the mere whim of "overbearing busybodies mad drunk on a power trip".

Your Board is probably made up of ordinary citizens, who, like you, appreciate the value of the resource and, are more reasonable than not, and who, like me, freely donate their time at the end of a long work day to give a little something of their skills back to their communities. And if they are like our Board, most will show up in work clothes.

Owning such a home means that you agree to give up a certain amount of autonomy that you might expect otherwise. In many cases, you can qualify for grants and other public and private subsidies (i.e. "other people's money") to assist you in your restoration. In return for its support to you, the community (notice I didn't say "Government") benefits in having a more or less intact example of its architectural history.

If done with enough planning, prudence and persistance, the restoration can add substantial value. Like any investment, is not for everyone, but only for those capable and willing to assume the inherent risks and also for those who can appreciate the process as much as the rewards.

Perhaps, as you say, you are not quite ready yet, but when you are, another opportunity will arise.

[Lee DeRaud]

Timing on this is a bit eerie:
39777
:D :eek:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Lee...........You really ought to come out of retirement and take your show on the road!:D

[Allen Bookout]

so we decided that no matter how tempting it is, we must pass on it.

Jason,

I'll bet that you are sleeping a lot better at night now.

Allen

[Jason Roehl]

Jason, what's the address? I'm going through Frankfort virtually every day right now. I've seen quite a few neat, old houses there.

(You probably made a wise decision, btw...)