Problems with making lidded boxes

[Ben Werner]

I was making a lidded box today and as I bored deeper with my 1/2 in benjamins Best round nose scraper it began to grab. It just got worse as I went deeper, so I raised my toolrest thinking that might help, which it did for a short time but then it began grabbing again. I guess the point of this post is to find out if this happens no matter what my technique is and also if having a scraper with a longer/heavier handle would help. :confused:
Here is a website of the scraper

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/lx110.html

Ben

[Jim Ketron]

Sounds like you need a Box Making tool rest!
it has a flat piece of steel that goes inside the box and gives your scraper or what ever tool extra support that a regular tool rest cant do.
Craft Supplies has them! Kinda pricey IMO but it would help you out a lot on those boxes, If it were me I would just make one

[Dick Parr]

You can get the tool rest from Lee Valley. Best price I have found and they are from Sorby Tools. You will need to get the post to fit your lathe also. But I think it's less the $25 including shipping.

It will make a world of difference.

Good luck.

[Corey Hallagan]

I think a 3/4 to 1 inch plus scraper would help tremendously. They will catch but a heavier tool is what you need. A box rest would probably help as well like others have said, but actually I do not see R Raffan using a box rest in his video, just big old thick 1/4 - 3/8 inch thick scrapers. I have used a 3/4 on my hollowing out projects and it catches but does the job. I did buy the PSI 1 1/2 hog and will try it out soon!
Corey

[Bernie Weishapl]

Ben when I do boxes I use the PSI 1 1/2" scraper. You need a lot bigger one than 1/2" especially when you start getting deeper and farther away from the tool rest. I don't have any problems when I use the big one.

[Brad Hart]

Everyone seems pretty sure it is your tool size or your toolrest which but I will have to disagree. Box making rests are nice but not essential. I made thousands of boxes without one and can't say that they make a bi difference to me until I am on my second or third dozen for the day when I am prone to being sloppy or tired. Once again I say that you can easily make a good box with 1/2" scraper I did it plenty of times early on when I didn't have very many tools. The mentioned 1.5" scraper from PSI is great for box making though, and in most cases is going to be superior to most other tools you can use, especially for the price.

Those are my general thoughts on the answers already given. They could be right, but not one person mentioned the most obvious problem here, and that would be how sharp and at what angle is the tool sharpened. A dull tool or one presenting a bad angle is very likely to catch in a box or any other hollow.

My primary box making tool is a 1" asp 2060 scraper from packard ground to a batty style negative rake. Though that may change as just before I hurt my wrist I bought a soren brrger hollowing tool and was able to rough out boxes at about twice the rate and alot more cleanly than I could with a scraper or gouge.

[John Hart]

Welcome Ben!!!!! Always nice to see a new face...er...name here in the vortex. All I can add is bore out your center all the way to your desired depth and then make light cuts.:)

[Michael Stafford]

Everyone seems pretty sure it is your tool size or your toolrest which but I will have to disagree. Box making rests are nice but not essential. I made thousands of boxes without one and can't say that they make a bi difference to me until I am on my second or third dozen for the day when I am prone to being sloppy or tired.

I love boxes. I sure would like to see pictures of the last 2 or 3 dozen boxes you turned before you hurt your wrist. Obviously you must be able to turn out a high quality project every few minutes. In order to turn 36 boxes in a day you would have to complete one every 40 minutes and not get any sleep that day. I sure would like to see pictures of the thousands of boxes you have turned. Do you have an on-line gallery or website so that we all can enjoy pictures of your work? Anybody ever tell you, Brad, that you are full of c...?

Ben, you do not mention how deeply you are hollowing with the scraper. I have done some deep hollowing with a scraper, i.e. more than 4 -5 inches and found it very difficult to do without catches. Richard Raffan also says it is a difficult skill to acquire and requires lots of practice. I only turn 10 or so boxes a week and have not approached the thousands of boxes that Richard Raffan has turned and he is a production turner. I have found that a box rest does help but so does practice. Keep practicing and your skills will improve.

[Mark Cothren]

First of all............Welcome Ben! :D

I've only done a few boxes, but I have experienced what you are talking about. Especially the last box I did (for some reason)...:confused: Seems to me the farther my tool is hanging off the end of the rest the more likely I am to "grab". I also think it had something to do with the difference in the wood I was turning. This last piece was very soft, so the soft touch Mike was talking about I think is where I was lacking.

Good luck and I sure do look forward to seeing some pics of your work!

You won't go wrong listening to Big Mike. He has given me (and others) tons of advice on box turning. Hard to argue with the quality of work he has posted on here and also on his web pages - check 'em out! Not hard to see the quality of boxes he's turning out from his pictures.

[Pete Jordan]

I am a newbie but I have had better luck with a square scraper

[Jim King]

I have never had trouble making covered bowls using our home made tools. A covered bowl is nothing more than a big lidded box. I think the reason we dont have problems is the size of our tools. They are all quite substantial compared to what I see people using as purchased tools. As I never Turned where people speak englIsh I never learned the names of the tools so I dont know which is a scraper or which is whatever , we just make tools to do a specific job. Attached is a photo of a typical coverd bowl/box and our tools. I would be afraid to use those little tools I see you guys using in the photos you post. They seem like they would be difficult to control and hold on to.

[Joe Tonich]

If you go with a square scraper for the bottom, PM Big Mike for a pic of his. We did a tag-team box last year and he gave me lots of good advice. One being to grind a slight angle on the face and round the corner slightly. Will help with the catches. Good luck n' welcome to the Creek.

[Ben Werner]

Those are my general thoughts on the answers already given. They could be right, but not one person mentioned the most obvious problem here, and that would be how sharp and at what angle is the tool sharpened. A dull tool or one presenting a bad angle is very likely to catch in a box or any other hollow.
I keep putting a new bur on it about every 5-10 min so I think I'm keeping it sharp. The angle is... I'm not quite sure but whats a good range. I heard of a negative rake but I'm not quite sure what it is. does it work better than the traditional scraper grind? oh and also would just keeping the blade how it is and making a much larger handle help?? And answering michael I'm between 1-2 in deep I think... Its raining so I dont feel like running out to check :p same for the angle of the scraper... but incase it stops what angle do you measure? from top to angle or bottom to angle?
Ben
PS I'll get an avatar soon so you can see a face for the name!:D

[Michael Stafford]

Ben, try this with your next box. Predrill a hole approximately to the depth you wish the inside to be. Now using your scraper push it in steps part of the depth and use only about 1/2 to 1/3rd of its width. Never try to use the full width of the scraper. This exerts tremendous stress on the tool and on you. By going in steps both in width and depth you will be more successful and the tool will be easier to control with respect to catches. The farther from the center you are, i.e. as you near the outside diameter, the smaller the steps should be. Much more torque is on the tool and on you when near the outside diameter. Even a small catch becomes amplified.

I would suggest you purchase Richard Raffan's book "Turning Boxes". He has illustrations showing the process I described above. He is world renowned as a production turner and is masterful at boxes.

Also, Ben, when you read his book you will see that a gouge is probably the speediest way for hollowing boxes of the depth you are describing. You can do it with scrapers but once you learn to use a gouge I think you will only use the scraper for clean up and refinement of the bottom and sides.

[Don Baer]

Ben,
Big mike is the Box Master of the creek so you can take his advice to the bank. If you have a woodcraft near you they have several of the Rafkin vidios that you can rent. They are well worth watching.

[Dick Strauss]

Ben,
I've had the same problem but I'm new to boxes like you. The smaller tools flex (yes flex) when more than an inch or two is off the rest. You can flex the tools in your hands without much work. You can cut with less pressure but the tools will flex and start to vibrate very quickly. IMHO there are two solutions as others have suggested...

1. Make/use a beefier tool (Raffan uses a 1/2"x1/2"x8"? tool at times in his video).

2. Try and get support closer to the bottom of the box.

[John Hart]

Here's some drill bits that they use in Texas. I would imagine that you can get a good deep and even bore with one of these puppies!!!:)

[Ben Werner]

thanks for all the help guys! I'll either borrow or buy Raffan's book and I'll look for a couple of movies of his too. I belong to the Central New York turning club and we can rent movies from their collection so I'll try and get some of his from there.:D one last question for you Mike: if I make a longer handle for my scraper that would that help me control it more right?? Thanks again and heres some pics of it all finished! it stands about 3 1/4 and at the bottom has a 2 1/4 in diameter, the hole is about 1 1/2 in deep. My dad thinks its spalted curly maple... if any of you guys can tell from the pics that be great.:D
thanks again
Ben
PS. Those bits are scary:eek:

[John Miliunas]

OK Ben, pardon my obvious ignorance but, tell us again, why exactly do you need help with this??? :confused: That's a downright righteous box there, my friend!!! :D Beautiful wood (and I think your dad is right!) and nice form, plus, you got the top/bottom parts matched up nicely for the continuous grain, as well. Good job! :) That said, though, follow most anything Big Mike can offer you on the subject! He's definitely our box guru! :D Keep up the great work! :) :cool:

[Corey Hallagan]

That is a beautiful box Ben, it looks great! Nice job.

corey

[Michael Stafford]

First of all, Ben, that is a fine looking box. You don't look like you need all that much help from me. You are well on your way.

A longer handle would give you more leverage for sure but as far as controlling it I would suggest the closer you can move the rest to the area where the wood is being cut the better off you will be. That is why me and some of the other guys suggested you consider the the box tool rest offered by various turning catalogs. By moving the tool rest closer and a box tool rest allows you to move the rest inside the object being turned, you are able to reduce the leverage that is on the cutting tool and increase your mechanical advantage. The shorter the amount of overhang of the tool over the tool rest the more mechanical advantage you will have. You can increase this with a longer handle but shortening up the tool exposure is always a good plan for control. If you can read Raffan's book and watch his videos I think you will have some of the best instruction possible until you are able to get some instruction from an experienced turner. I would recommend you take advantage of members of your club as well.

One suggestion I would make...it appears you are using a square scraper to finish cut and fine tune the bottom. I also use a square scraper to do that. One thing I learned the hard way is that the scraper should not be ground completely square. I usually grind mine so that the left hand corner is ever so slightly longer than the right hand corner. This reduces the amount of the cutting edge that comes in contact with the bottom of the box and prevents the likelihood that both corners can contact the wood at the same time. Also take very light cuts with your scraper at the bottom removing almost powder. The slight difference in the length of the two corners will allow you to gently slide the scraper along the bottom and remove any irregularities... Hope this helps.

Again, Ben, you are well on your way. Just keep turning and practicing and those catches will become fewer and farther between.

[John Hart]

OK Ben, pardon my obvious ignorance but, tell us again, why exactly do you need help with this??? :confused:

See how he did that J.M.? He quietly sucked us in there and WHAM!:eek: ...hits us right between the eyes with a nice lookin' piece.

Hey Ben...If there's anything else you need help with....just let us know. I know some stuff about tape.....and maybe a thing or two about string. We're here for ya man!! ;) :) :)

[Corey Hallagan]

Some great info Mike on scrapers Mike. Thanks!

Corey

[Ben Werner]

Thanks EVERYONE for all the help and suggestions. I'll try that with the square end scraper. Thanks for all the complements ya all. I'll let you know John if I every have questions about tape or string:p heh.
Ben

[John Miliunas]

See how he did that J.M.? He quietly sucked us in there and WHAM!:eek: ...hits us right between the eyes with a nice lookin' piece.

I know some stuff about tape.....and maybe a thing or two about string. We're here for ya man!! ;) :) :)

You got that one right, my friend! WHAM!... is right!!! :eek: Now that you mention it, I know a thing or two about PC's so, if you have a problem with your 'puter, Ben, I may be able to give you a hand! Otherwise, it looks like you've got it covered!!! :) :cool:

[Ben Werner]

Now that you mention it, I know a thing or two about PC's so, if you have a problem with your 'puter, Ben, I may be able to give you a hand! thanks for the offer but I'm a mac user :) :D MACS all the way!! heh heh

[John Miliunas]

thanks for the offer but I'm a mac user :) :D MACS all the way!! heh heh

Hmmmm...Not sure 'bout that one, either. I know a lot of guys really like Kenworths and I know a fella' or two driving Whites! :D :cool:

[Mike Vickery]

FYI Raffans box turning video is available through netflix
http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70025836 (http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70025836&trkid=189533&strkid=28018629_1_0)

[Mark Cothren]

I have never had trouble making covered bowls using our home made tools. A covered bowl is nothing more than a big lidded box. I think the reason we dont have problems is the size of our tools. They are all quite substantial compared to what I see people using as purchased tools. As I never Turned where people speak englIsh I never learned the names of the tools so I dont know which is a scraper or which is whatever , we just make tools to do a specific job. Attached is a photo of a typical coverd bowl/box and our tools. I would be afraid to use those little tools I see you guys using in the photos you post. They seem like they would be difficult to control and hold on to.

Okay Jim... I gotta ask... what is the hinged wooden tool in the upper left corner of the tool pic? Looks like there is a chunk of metal imbedded in there and I know you use it for some specialty application...:confused:

Inquiring minds wanna know!!!!!!!!!!

[Vaughn McMillan]

Sorry I can't offer advice on the box-making questions, but I do think Jim King wins for the week's gnarliest-looking tool handles. ;) Jungle Jim strikes again!

- Vaughn

[Bernie Weishapl]

I followed Big Mike's suggestion on getting Raffan's video. Best move I ever made. I do like he does and use the back hollowing move with a gouge. Once I have it open I use a 1 1/2" scraper to finish cleaning it out. I just use a square scraper to finish up the sides and bottom. Take real light cuts as Mike said. Almost dust doing the sides and bottom. Other than that by the looks of your boxes Ben I would say you got them down pretty good.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I think somebody suckered a bunch of people in!...........Nice box!

[Ben Werner]

thanks all

I have a stall at the local "farmers market" and I am planing on selling some of my turnings. So how much do you guys think that I could fetch for that box? Just give me a random number.

FYI I live in a small college town so the population is at about 1/2 during the summer :rolleyes: but the college is Colgate University if any of you heard of it....

Ben

[Jim King]

Mark: The wooden hinged thing in the upper left corner is a compass.