Dovetail angle question.

[Andy Howard]

I have recently started hand cutting my dovetails, and had a general question about them.

Does the chosen angle/ratio make any difference in the difficulty of getting a good joint with tight fit between the pins and tails?

It seems to me that a higher degree would make the fit a bit more critical, but I am no expert.

Any experts want to chime in on this?

Thanks
Andy

[Alan DuBoff]

Does the chosen angle/ratio make any difference in the difficulty of getting a good joint with tight fit between the pins and tails?

It seems to me that a higher degree would make the fit a bit more critical, but I am no expert.No expert here, but the angle doesn't really have much impact on the difficulty, IMO.

When cutting a dovetail, no matter if you start from pins or tails first, it's the second piece that gets marked from the first. IOW, you use the tails to make the pins, or the pins to mark the tails. It is cuting the 2nd piece that determines how well the joint fits. Being able to saw to a line helps a lot!

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Not in my experience. In theory the angle is chosen for the type of wood you are using, but I really haven't seen any difference in durability between 1:8 and 1:6 in different types of woods. I'd choose the one most pleasing to your eye. Sawing to the line will have the most impact on how the joint goes together.

[harry strasil]

Andy, I learned how to cut dovetails from a real old timer, and from old manuals on the subject, the softer the wood, the more the angle, I use 10° on hardwood and 20° on soft wood. Some of the younger WW's will probably use something different.

A good joint is determined on your ability to mark a line and use the saw to cut in the waste area. I never use a pencil, just a sharp scribing knife and always use a pencil to mark the waste area to cut out. Its better to cut a little larger and pare to fit, than to have a loose joint.

Also I was taught to cut the pins first and mark the sockets from them.

my 2¢ worth.

[harry strasil]

Also one little trick the old timer taught me, is to use a sharp knife and cut in at the line on the edge at an angle, and then angle the blade and cut a little notch out in the waste part to use to start your saw in the right place.

[harry strasil]

These are the two marking knives I use most often.

The top one is a copy of one I found in an old woodworking book and has a scribe on one end. It is made from part of an old saw blade, and the knife end is only sharpened on one side, the other is flat.

The second one is of my own design, also made from a saw blade, I call it a dovetailed marking knife, and only the two outer edges are sharpened on one side, it is shown unsharpened side up.

[Larry Rose]

Andy, the only difference I have found in using one angle or another is that too great an angle is more liable to break as you fine tune and dry fit. It always takes me a couple of trys to ge a good fitand this is when the break is likely to occur.

[Brett Baldwin]

This advice comes from Tage Frid's book. The pins should be cut at approximately 80 degrees (or 10 degrees depending on how you look at it) and the reasoning is that the further out the pins flare, the weaker that corner of the pins becomes. As far as I'm aware, this applies to hardwoods. I don't recall any advice on softwoods.

[Travis Johnson]

I was always told to cut 8 to 1 degrees on hardwoods, 6 to 1 on softwoods, always cut your pins first, and also to use a softer wood on your pins if possable so that the wood compresses when you put you dovetail joint together.

Now this last point might start a contreversy, but I learned this from a Lie Neilsen employee, Rob Cosman. Never do a dry-fit as it sort of brusies the wood when it is put together without glue. Sure the wood is bruised anyway, but after you pull the joint apart, it makes for a sloppier fit. Instead double-check your joint to make sure everything is right up to par, then put it together once. The glue acts as a lubricant and makes things go together easier anyway so use it to your advantage.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

If the joint is going to depend on glue you need to consider how much of the end grain you want to expose. Steeper angles = more end grain.
It's a trade off when gluing a DT anyway as there's both cross grain as well as end grain. So it's more a question of degree.

[Michael Gibbons]

Andy, I'm with Travis, Order "Hand Cut Dovetails"featuring Rob Cosman from Lie-Nielsen. He explains the how ,why, what, where, and when of cutting dovetails, It's worth the $20. IMHO.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Guys, this is real simple, you don't need to buy a book to do this properly. First, know that dovetails are always cut with the grain. Cross cut dovetails don't last more than a minute due to splintering along the grain. In fact, while you can cut things like box and lap joints in cross grain, the box joint will be strong because there's no slope on the inside of the joint.

Second, because they're cut in end grain, you have to worry about breaking the points on the pins and tails. Hardwoods, because of their tighter, stronger grain, can handle a more acute angle than softwoods; but it doesn't mean you have to cut at a higher angle, just that you can.

Pam