More on Jointers

[Bill Randall]

Been following the 8" jointer discussion, especially the Grizzly 490. But what about the Grizzly 526 6" model? Is the trade-off in width and length worth what is apparently better cutting with the carbide spiral-insert blades and ease of cutter adjustment/changing? Setting: I am a beginning woodworker. I am thinking that it is not worth it, either the cut is not that much better or as a beginner I need the width and height to compensate for lack of experience--or both! Thanks.

[Chuck Saunders]

Hi Bill,
Wider Jointer means wider boards, period. Carbide spiral segmented cutter means better chip loading per cutter. These variables are not differentiated by skill. The spiral cutter head costs more and is available for the 8" as well. Which jointer is best for you will depend on the size of stock that you tend to work with.
Chuck

[Mike Weaver]

Bill,
You'll get vvarying answers, but most will tell you that 8" is worth is because you will very likely be handling wood in the 6"-8" wide range and having to first rip it down so that you can joint it is a real drag.

YMMV, but that's my opinion on 6" vs 8".
Good luck,
-Mike

[Ken Werner]

Depends. I started with a 4" outgrew it, 6" outgrew it, now have an 8". If you're a beginner, you may not want to make the bigger investment. Good news is that there's always a market for used equipment, and when you upgrade, you can usually sell and recoup much of your costs. Can you try out someone's 6" and 8" jointer to see how they feel for you? You might be more comfortable with the smaller unit.
Good luck.
Ken

[Bill Randall]

Thanks for the quick response, guys. I know the Grizzly 593 has both 8 and spiral, but my budget would really stretching. In an 8 inch, is the spiral worth the extra 250 clams (490 vs 593)? I'll never buy another jounter, at my age!

[Charlie Plesums]

With a well-adjusted saw, edge jointing is rarely necessary. The primary "critical" use for a jointer is to flatten the face.

I found my 6 inch jointer was almost useless. Top quality hardwood must finish to 6 inches wide to earn the FAS grade, which means that it must start at least 6 1/2 inches wide, which means even the narrowest boards won't fit on a 6 inch jointer. Since wide boards bring a premium, I think you will find most boards are between 6 and 8 inches wide.

I upgraded from 6 inches to a 16 inch jointer, and love it, but that is more than I recommend for most people.

[Chuck Saunders]

Thanks for the quick response, guys. I know the Grizzly 593 has both 8 and spiral, but my budget would really stretching. In an 8 inch, is the spiral worth the extra 250 clams (490 vs 593)? I'll never buy another jounter, at my age!

Hi Bill,
If it is worth $250 depends on your use. The wider the jointer, the more benefit you gain but at 8" it is chrome wheels more than power steering. If you don't get it you will not be kicking yourself later. If you do get it you will forget about the money after awhile. Regardless of what you decide on there is always the next model up that has some feature that just costs a little bit more...
Chuck

[Dev Emch]

I recently posted at length soem viewpoints regarding smaller jointers in PM messeages to other members. What I told them was this. One element that makes a 12 inch to 20 inch jointer more accurate is the use of SUPER PRECISION bearings. Now if I have a 4 to 5 inch cutter head, its EASY to find all sorts of ABEC class 7 bearings for this machine.

Smaller jointers like 6 and 8 inch jointers have smaller cutter heads. That means much smaller bearing journals and finding super precision bearings for these beasts becomes extremely difficult. Few devices in the past needed this level of precision on such a small shaft. And when such an item was built, its often a 20,000 RPM aerospace or super high end metal working instrument. Thus, if the bearing is available (A Mightly Big IF), then its going to cost more than the whole jointer is worth.

So these smaller jointers have muddled through life with this limitation. Now trying to exchange heads with bryd shelix heads and what not can improve the performance of the jointer in some figured wood cases. But your not going to get the improvement you would had you changed out the bearings to super precision bearings.

Changing the heads on a porter or northfield or even a larger mini-max jointer with these types of bearings will manifest some serious improvments in cutting performance esp. in figured woods. But in general, I personally would not change out the heads on 6 and 8 inch jointers unless I really had to. The price to improvment ratio is to high for my own needs.

Just my penny's worth....:rolleyes:

[Dev Emch]

With a well-adjusted saw, edge jointing is rarely necessary. The primary "critical" use for a jointer is to flatten the face.

I found my 6 inch jointer was almost useless. Top quality hardwood must finish to 6 inches wide to earn the FAS grade, which means that it must start at least 6 1/2 inches wide, which means even the narrowest boards won't fit on a 6 inch jointer. Since wide boards bring a premium, I think you will find most boards are between 6 and 8 inches wide.

I upgraded from 6 inches to a 16 inch jointer, and love it, but that is more than I recommend for most people.

Excellent Points!

[Dev Emch]

By the way. I coined the term STICK JOINTER a few years back to describe the 6 and 8 inch jointers. The primary function of a stick jointer is to joint the edge of a board. Now the 8 inch jointer does have the ability to face joint some boards. But if your face jointing quite a bit, even an 8 inch jointer wouldn't be wide enough.

My stick jointer is an older direct drive wallace 6 inch jointer from about 1920. Its being restored slowly but I have not done much work on it over the winter so that shows you how useful it is.

My main line jointer is a 20 inch porter from 1961. Personally, I think your going to have pry this jointer from dead lifeless fingers!

[Jay Knoll]

Bill

I had an old garage sale 6" jointer and limped along with it for awhile, I bought the Grizzly and am very happy with the decision. I simply don't have space for a bigger machine in my garage/shop. I figured it was better to get the 8" capability and the parallelogram capability (knockoff of the Delta DJ20 that so many have raved about) and I am completely satisfied with my decision. I probably will upgrade the head to a shelix sometime in the future, but for now it is working fine.

One of the advantages/disadvantages of this forum is that you'll get lots of advice from a wide range of people with different woodworking situations. You'll sort of have to read between the lines to calibrate the advice you listen to with the backgrounds of the people who are giving it. I envy the people that have the space for "big iron". It isn't going to happen at my house, so I have to make do with what I am able to squeeze into my space. But, all things considered, the 8" jointer has been a MAJOR step up in my ability to work with wood without having to rip stuff down. Besides, the real limiting factor is my 13" lunch box planer. If I have wider stuff, I take the guard off the jointer, joint a flat face, put that on a piece of mdf and run it through the planer to flatten the other side, then flip it over and remove the "rabbet" from the other side.

Good luck with your decision, lots of good information here!

Jay

[Bruce Benjamin]

By the way. I coined the term STICK JOINTER a few years back to describe the 6 and 8 inch jointers. The primary function of a stick jointer is to joint the edge of a board. Now the 8 inch jointer does have the ability to face joint some boards. But if your face jointing quite a bit, even an 8 inch jointer wouldn't be wide enough.


I guess it all depends on the wood you use. I don't think most amateur woodworkers regularly need to joint pieces that are wider than 8". I almost never buy any boards over 8" wide and it's not because I only have an 8" jointer. It's because 8" and narrower boards typically fall within my project and budget needs. I don't agree at all that the primary function of an 8" jointer is for edge jointing. You do realize that most people on this forum aren't professional production shops, don't you? Sure, I wouldn't mind at all having a bigger jointer but I would only rarely actually use that extra capacity over an 8" Most of what I buy is between 6" and 8" wide and at the two hardwood suppliers in my town this is the width of a lot of the wood they sell. Me buying a 20" jointer would be like me buying a bazooka to shoot squirrels. Only occasionally do I come across a really big squirrel. ;)

Bruce

[Charlie Plesums]

Bruce, I, too, rarely have boards over 8 inches wide. But when I glue up a panel, I only rough plane it first, then glue it, then joint and plane the complete panel. Ohhh so nice.

I recently retired, and prefer woodworking to golf and fishing, and sell my work, so I am technically a professional, but I work alone and definitely do not push the big iron all day like a production shop. Nothing wrong with an 8 inch jointer, but you don't have to be a production shop to make good use of a 16 inch or larger jointer.

Will you invite me over for squirrel stew when you get one of those really big ones?;)

[Bruce Benjamin]

Bruce, I, too, rarely have boards over 8 inches wide. But when I glue up a panel, I only rough plane it first, then glue it, then joint and plane the complete panel. Ohhh so nice.

I recently retired, and prefer woodworking to golf and fishing, and sell my work, so I am technically a professional, but I work alone and definitely do not push the big iron all day like a production shop. Nothing wrong with an 8 inch jointer, but you don't have to be a production shop to make good use of a 16 inch or larger jointer.

Will you invite me over for squirrel stew when you get one of those really big ones?;)

Hi Charlie. I do understand that there certainly are uses for an aircraft carrier sized jointer. My main point was that for the majority of face-flattening jointing tasks in the average hobbiest shop an 8" jointer does a lot more than just straighten an edge. I have pretty good luck gluing up panels that are flat enough that a wider jointer isn't really necessary. My ROS and 13" planer has taken care of any slight irregularities. Another point is that the jump in price as well as the extra large foot print is beyond what most hobbiests are willing or able to deal with when an 8" or, for some, even a 6" is all they'll ever need. Another poster pointed out that most affordable lumber is between 6" and 8" so, at least for me, a 6" jointer wasn't going to cut it. I currently have an 8" Sun Hill with 65" beds. I work in my garage shop and space is a big consideration. I almost bought their version with 72" beds but the slight extra length cost a lot more and it just wasn't worth it for me. I've yet to come across a jointing task where the extra few inches would've made the job easier. But because of the way I have to roll around all of my large tools to keep them out of the way the extra length and width of a monster jointer would certainly be noticed. Now, if someone was kind enough to send me a 16" jointer for free I would certainly deal with the space issues but for the big jump in extra expense and considering how little I'd use the extra capacity it would've been a waste for me. I guess it all boils down to what sort of projects you build and your techniques.

Now, about that squirrel stew...It's been a few years since I've been deer hunting but way back when I used to hunt with my dad, and sometimes after that, whether or not we got our deer we would usually see a lot of Gray squirrels. Sometimes we would carry along a .22 for such occasions but usually we just had a 30.06 and let me tell ya, if you aren't good enough to just blow the head off of the squirrel you weren't going to have much left to eat. We usually were successful with more than half of what we shot but with some all you could find was a couple of legs and maybe the head. (Sorry for the graphics but nobody said hunting was pretty):eek: Pretty good eating though. Now days I have so many big, fat Gray squirrels living in my backyard and all around my neighborhood that I could practically catch them with a net. We leave then alone though...For now. I'll drop you an email when I get tired of them driving my dogs crazy and I decide to fire up the ol' stew pot.:D

Bruce

[Jim Andrew]

Hi Charlie, a little over a year ago I gave my old craftsman 6" jointer to a
friend and ordered a 10" Oliver. Now I am looking at a helical cutter about 700. Wish I had bought a 12" with the helical already on it. No
matter how big you get it is never big enough. Jim

[Dev Emch]

I guess it all depends on the wood you use. I don't think most amateur woodworkers regularly need to joint pieces that are wider than 8". I almost never buy any boards over 8" wide and it's not because I only have an 8" jointer. It's because 8" and narrower boards typically fall within my project and budget needs. I don't agree at all that the primary function of an 8" jointer is for edge jointing. You do realize that most people on this forum aren't professional production shops, don't you? Sure, I wouldn't mind at all having a bigger jointer but I would only rarely actually use that extra capacity over an 8" Most of what I buy is between 6" and 8" wide and at the two hardwood suppliers in my town this is the width of a lot of the wood they sell. Me buying a 20" jointer would be like me buying a bazooka to shoot squirrels. Only occasionally do I come across a really big squirrel. ;)

Bruce

Opps, you mean not everyone on this forum is a professional woodworker? Wow, you learn something everyday.:rolleyes:

Why 20 inches? Simple! They are cheaper than the 12 incher porters. The ideal cat's meow machine for your average hobbyist woodworker is a 12 inch machine. As you move up to 16 in and 20 in machines, many folks are scarred silly to use the beastie. Also dialing in a wider machine becomes more difficult.

As an example. I have only seen ONE 12 inch porter 300 jointer in my lifetime. A buddy of mine restored it and sold it for $8000 dollars. This was about 5 years ago and the jointer was from about 1960. Granted it was in pristine shape and included a knife grinder. The price is very high but then again its a 12 incher.

I have written about jointers at extreme length in the past and I dont feel like repeating that diatribe here. Surfice it to say that there are advantages to a 12 inch or wider joitner over an 8 inch jointer. For example, this thread was begun on the premise of incorporating a helical head on an 8 inch jointer. I said it in the past and I will say it again, I PERSONALLY feel your wasting your money. The 8 inch jointer has way to small a head, to loose bearings and no true means of dialing in super precision so why deal with a super precision head.

Yah but boards are 8 inches are less.... yadi yadi yadi. This is true; however, I learned many many moons ago that one way to combat pagen grain hardwoods was to skew cut the stuff on the jointer. Most old iron jointers can skew orientate the fence. On some newer jointer, the fence is fixed and only moves in and out. So here I can skew cut an 8 inch board on a 12 or 16 or 20 inch jointer to mitigate blow out.

Lastly many 20 inch jointers are pigs and eat lots of space. The porter 20 inch 300 is not. IT is built on the frame of the 16 inch porter 300 and only the tables and cutter yoke are dedicated to 20 inches. Everything is identical to the 16 inch porter making for a nice compact design.

Ideally I would prefer to have a 12 inch jointer with a four knife head. But finding a porter 300 that is 12 inches wide with a four knife head that is actually reasonable in price is an adventure that eluded me so far.

[Chet Parks]

Been following the 8" jointer discussion, especially the Grizzly 490. But what about the Grizzly 526 6" model? Is the trade-off in width and length worth what is apparently better cutting with the carbide spiral-insert blades and ease of cutter adjustment/changing? Setting: I am a beginning woodworker. I am thinking that it is not worth it, either the cut is not that much better or as a beginner I need the width and height to compensate for lack of experience--or both! Thanks.

I bought the Grizzly 6" jointer, 7 months ago and within the first month started kicking myself for not spending the extra money for the 8" one. If you are into getting rough cut lumber from a sawmill, air drying it and then flattening and planing the boards--which is what I do for my stock-- 8" is the minimum. Right now, I'm looking to upgrade to a 10" jointer.

Unless you're only doing small projects, get the bigger jointer. You won't be sorry.

Chet Parks

[Al Willits]

"""""""""
Good luck with your decision, lots of good information here!
"""""""""""

Ya...maybe a bit to much..:)

I'd love to have a larger jointer, but the 16" version I seen was $4,000, ain't gonna happen, just to much money for a hobby and my stash fund.

Used for me anyway, don't seem to be likely, as they just don't seem to be anywhere near Minn or decent driving distance, if you can find them at all.
Plus a used 16" at 2K is still too much money.

I'm not sure the $250 or so to upgrade cutters is gonna be worth it, I'd like to see the difference before spending the money to change.
Has anyone converted from the stock cutters to the upgraded ones on a 6 or 8" jointer?

I am looking at the York 8" jointer now, but wondering if a long bed 6" and a plainer (13 or 15") wouldn't make more sense?
Definetly cheaper than a 16" jointer.

Waaay to many choices...:)

Al

[Mike Cutler]

Bill.

You have a lot of good responses here, but let me throw in mt .02.

Bigger is better, with respect to jointers. You alone have to be the one to justify the cost. The spiral heads are nice, but not necessary, folks have been doing just fine without them for a long time. I would go bigger before spiral, or helical, and upgrade at a later time if required.

A bigger jointer does take up more space when not in use, no debate there, but it is a non issue in my opinion.The length of the material, and not the size of the machine dictate the space required. An 8' long board requires 17' of open space to joint ( face or edge). It doesn't matter if there a 4' long, 6" jointer underneath the board, or an 8' long, 12" jointer. It still takes 17' of open area to use it. I don't think that even Dev has a jointer that is 17' long. ( I've done quite a few 8' and longer boards as a homeowner/hobbiest. That is why I used this specific example)

Imho, buy the biggest jointer, that you can afford, and that will fit in your shop. I've never read a post where someone wished that they had bought a smaller jointer.

[Al Willits]

Ok, I'll buy a 16" or larger jointer is the way to go....for those who have dedicated shops with enough room and have the means to buy them.
But for those of us who neither, what's wrong with owning a plainer that does 13 or 15" wide boards and a 6 or 8" jointer?

Al .... who's trying to have enough money after this to buy wood....:)

[Mike Cutler]

Ok, I'll buy a 16" or larger jointer is the way to go....for those who have dedicated shops with enough room and have the means to buy them.
But for those of us who neither, what's wrong with owning a plainer that does 13 or 15" wide boards and a 6 or 8" jointer?

Al .... who's trying to have enough money after this to buy wood....:)

Nothing is wrong with that combination Al. I'm sure that a lot of folks are managing just fine with it, me included. ( Jet 15" planer, and a Jet 6" jointer). I do want a bigger jointer though. The 6" is just too small for my needs. I have at times almost tipped it over while in use, due to the weight of the material I was working on. I've edge joined 10' long, by 16" wide Jatoba boards on it, and it wasn't fun.

I personally think that as "hobbiest", we tend to rationalize against buying the bigger, heavier, more expensive equipment. It is hard to justify the new purchase of a jointer that may cost $2K-3K or even more. When there are Mortages to pay, car payments, college tuition, etc... We also tend to work primarily alone, and I've come to believe that the bigger the better, is also the safer, when working alone. It's hard to wrestle a long board through a jointer, or a tablesaw, or a bandsaw by yourself, and when you add in the problem of the machine moving underneath the material due to the combination of light weight, and mobile bases, the combination can be a real hazard in my opinion. Maybe the stuff I've been building lately has just been physically too big, I don't know?

Personally, for me I'm looking at the 10"-12" used jointer market. I don't think that an 8" is a big enough step up from 6" for me, but individual needs vary.

Just my .02, fwiw. There is no one size fits all solution, eh.

[Al Willits]

Thanks Mike, I unfornately haven't been able to find a jointer bigger than 8" in the price range I can afford, new or used.
I have decided on the York 8" jointer and probably the Dewalt 735 plainer.
Been thinking on one of them reconditioned Dewalts on Ebay, haven't heard anything bad about them yet.
Although a used 15" would be nice, they seen to be hard to come by here in Minn, but I'll keep looking.

Al

[Scott Vigder]

Wow...what a great thread! Many excellent examples have been presented, and I think it's fair to say your specific needs dictate what is best for you. I'd start with a realistic budget figure....how much are you willing to spend and not a penny more? Once that figure is reached, then determine what is the most jointer you can get for your money? Your budget will help you decide if it'll be a 6", 8", or behemouth size. I wholeheartedly agree that I have never met a person complain they bought too large a jointer.
In February of '06 I bought the Grizzly G0490 because 8" covers 90% of the boards I buy. I think the parallelogram beds are a must-have feature and would have waited and maybe looked for a used jointer with those beds had Grizz not introduced this model.
I do a lot of table tops and since buying my jointer I have reduced my sanding time by around 80%. Coupled with my newer DeWalt 13" planer I have complete confidence that my boards are square and true so they will move in harmony throughout their lifespan. If I had a 6" jointer I'd be doing a lot more sanding and glueing.
So to summarize, I suggest establishing a drop-dead budget number then seeing what you can buy for that amount. Good luck with your search!

[Seth Poorman]

I have a 8" Powermatic Joiner , Although this machine is vary nice , I wish I had a bigger unit ! There has been a number of times that I wish I could have face joined a 10" or a 12" board ! But i have always just made do w/
the 8".
Question: Is it hard to push a 12" or larger board thru a larger unit by hand ? What about a 20" wide board on a 20" Joiner , would that require a powerfeeder???? :confused: I guess I should dedicate this question to Dev...

[Charlie Plesums]

...Question: Is it hard to push a 12" or larger board thru a larger unit by hand ? What about a 20" wide board on a 20" Joiner , would that require a powerfeeder???? :confused: ...
I have never had a problem hand feeding a wide (14, 15 inch) board through my 16 inch jointer. I have a power feeder, but prefer to NOT use it on the jointer, since it pushes down pretty hard, which will take some warp out of the board by bending it, rather than straightening it on the jointer.

The limiting factor on my system is not my strength nor the power of the jointer, but the dust collector... I can easily fill the 4 inch hose with chips when I am jointing a wide board. Therefore to avoid plugging the hose, I may make a couple shallower passes, rather than hogging everything off at once.