Jointer + Rust = Mad!! (Update)

[Ryan Ricks]

Hey all - thought I'd throw this one out to the pros. We had new flooring installed about a week and a half ago. Tonight I finally made it down to the shop to work on the bookcases and heard some water dripping. Upon investigation, found that when replacing the washer and dryer, the installers somehow slit the washer drain hose. To fix it they put some caulk on it and wrapped in in masking tape - needless to say that did not work. Anyhow, the water dripped onto my jointer outfeed table. what's the best way to go about getting this cleaned up? :mad:

[Steve Evans]

I'd be going after the company that did the install. They knew that they messed up, and tried to hide it from you. But before I did that, I'd take a green scothbrite pad to it with some WD-40.

Steve

[Alex Shanku]

I scrape with a flat razor, then sand lightly with 120, followed by 220, using my ROS. Then I may or may not use naval jelly. Next, I use a automotive scratch remover. Finally, I use paste wax.

[Ryan Ricks]

I'd be going after the company that did the install. They knew that they messed up, and tried to hide it from you. But before I did that, I'd take a green scothbrite pad to it with some WD-40.

Steve
I am planning on going after the company - I took photos of the "repair" before I unwrapped it, and I took photos of the water on the floor.

Will the WD40 be strong enough to loosen the rust? :confused:


Thanks -

Ryan

[Tim Morton]

I am planning on going after the company - I took photos of the "repair" before I unwrapped it, and I took photos of the water on the floor.

Will the WD40 be strong enough to loosen the rust? :confused:


Thanks -

Ryan

wd-40 should get you close....it LOOKS alot worse than it really is. before I tried sand paper...I might try some of that hand soap in the orange bottle (gojo??)and a worn out scotch brite pad. Just try and work with the grain of the bed...and take it slow.

[Allen Bookout]

That is so bad!!! First I would find those guys and skin them alive. Then I think that like Steve said I would use WD40 and a fine grade abrasive pad and work away using a power sander to work the pad. Since it has only been a week and a half that might be all that you need. If you need to polish it after that the automotive compounds that are sold at automotive paint stores work well with a power polisher.

I think that I would be leary of using naval jelly as sometimes you can get uneaven bloches using it. If you have to go the chemical route Rust Free by PMS Products woods pretty well. If your hardware store does not have it West Marine usually does. I would only use that as a last resort also.

Then protect with one of the many systems that have been suggested over time on the forum. I use Boeshield T9 and cover with Johnsons Paste Wax or Minwax. Some guys say the Renaissance Wax is superior.

Good luck and I hope that you do not end up in jail when you skin those guys.

Allen

[Michael Conner]

Scotchbrite and WD40 will work wonders. I purchased a grizzly cabinet saw that had a good bit of surface rust on the table. I put the scotchbrite pad on my ROS and sprayed everything down with WD40. After a couple treatments I then buffed with an automotive buffing compound. I was pleased with the results. I'll also echo the above post, it likely is not nearly as bad as it looks. I doubt that there has been any pitting.

Be careful if you use naval jelly. That stuff will really cut the rust, but it will also cause pitting if not thoroughly cleaned and neutralized following use.

[Larry Norton]

Alex, I had a similiar problem when I rolled my Brand New PM66 outside and we got about 25 raindrops while I was inside, I swear all 25 drops hit the saw top. I tried naval jelly in a little spot and it looked awful. I spent 2 days with my random orbit sander and lots of work trying to get it back like it was, but it never happened.

It's like your new truck bed. You're very careful not to get a scratch on it, but then, when you do, you cry for a while, then slowly forget about it and don't pay attention to the next scratch.

Ryan, I'm like the others, the contractors who butchered the plumbing would be buying new beds for the jointer! I might also go to the Better Business Bureau and advise them of the plumber's practices so no one else goes through what you are going through.

[John Keane]

Bioshield "Rust Free" will do wonders. I once used Mothers Mag and Aluminum polish. It removed the rust but did not remove the stain imprint.
Let us know your method and results. All of us will have a rust problem at one time or another.

[Ryan Ricks]

Well, in classic fashion, I cannot find any of the 5-8 cans of WD40 I usually trip over (Let's see - one in the truck, 2 in the garage, 3 in the basement, 1 in the closet, etc...). Everything is closed now so it'll have to wait until tomorrow. I hate putting it off - it can only get more difficult. Thanks for all the input - keep it coming. I'll let you know how it goes.


Thanks,
Ryan

[CPeter James]

While some like "WD40", "PB Blaster" is my rust cutter of choice. It is available at Walmart and most auto supply stores. Did you jointer have the same mirror finish as the table saws? If it had a finish like most tables, and you decide to "fix" them, I would go with wet and dry silicon carbide sandpaper starting with 220 grade, use the PB Blaster as a lubricant, do it by hand and go in a straight line the length of the tables. More up in grades until you are satisfied. You could go as far as 1500 or 2000. That will be the mirror finish area. Been there, done that, got the the tee shirt. You can get the sandpaper at a good body supply dealer.

CPeter

[Jim O'Dell]

Man, that just makes me want to cry. At the very least, I would ask the plumbing firm to pay you what the plumbers make per hour, plus materials, to clean this up. That might get their attention! Plus, they need to fix their screwup that caused the problem to begin with, PRONTO. Jim.

[Jerry White]

Ryan,

I know that most of the methods already mentioned will work, but I have discovered a product that may save you some work and do a good job too. It is called Topsaver and it is available at Woodcraft and Amazon. I have had good results with it on rust removal.

http://empiremfg.com/products/otc/ts/index.html

My sympathies on the damage done and good luck with the contractor. Perhaps you could sell your jointer to the contractor for a good price and buy you a new one.

Jerry

[Bruce Page]

Man, I’d be spittin' FIRE!
I’d go with the WD-40 & scotch-brite over sandpaper. The scotch-brite is more forgiving and will give you a more uniform appearance.
It’s going to be messy so be sure to wear some rubber gloves and spread some news paper under your work area.

[Dev Emch]

Man, I’d be spittin' FIRE!
I’d go with the WD-40 & scotch-brite over sandpaper. The scotch-brite is more forgiving and will give you a more uniform appearance.
It’s going to be messy so be sure to wear some rubber gloves and spread some news paper under your work area.

Spittin' Fire??? ..... Not me! I would be ... ummmm outgassing extremely volatile and combustable vapor and it wouldn't be near as germain nor humain as spitting!

First of all, I would file a claim against these people. As this was a week ago, I would cancel all payment ASAP pending a mutual settlement. All proceeds should be placed in escrow. Escrow charges, etc. will be comming out of their pockets. First of all, as bad as the jointer is, I cannot believe you dont have even more subtantial damage in the ceiling.

In terms of the jointer. Got some bad news for you. If this jointer is a standard wedge bed, you should remove the bed and clean up the outfeed ways. You may also need to clean up the area around the cutter head.

For the tables, I would begin with a medium scrotchbrite pad and move up to some very fine scotchbrite pads. Apply a small area of navel jelly and give it a few minutes to work. DO NOT ALLOW IT TO DRY. If you do, you need to reapply with some wet stuff. Work this area with the pad. Wipe up with a paper towel. When done, wash completely with warm water and wipe dry. IMMEDIATELY following the bubble bath with water, spary all machined surfaces that were expsosed with WD-40. Get the oll on the table and smeared out over the work area. Leave the WD-40 in liquid form for some time as it absorbs any stray water still attached to the main frame.

[lou sansone]

Well I would do things a little different than has been suggested so far, and it has worked for me on a number of machines. I like to use mineral spirits or kero and 00 or 000 steel wool to see how bad it really is. I doubt it is real deep. You can move to silicone carbide paper ( wet dry ) ~ 320 or 400 grit to start with along with mineral spirits. I am pretty sure the beds were ground ( not plained ) and if you "sand" in the same direction as the bed, you will not be able to tell the difference between the factory finish and your's. Back up the sand paper with a small wood block or hard rubber pad and you should be all set. I am not sure about the navel jelly idea. Sure if you have real deep pits you have to use some form of caustic etch, but It looks to me to be just light rust on the surface. I would think that the navel jelly would do more harm than good.

best wishes
lou

[Tim Morton]

Spittin' Fire??? ..... Not me! I would be ... ummmm outgassing extremely volatile and combustable vapor and it wouldn't be near as germain nor humain as spitting!

First of all, I would file a claim against these people. As this was a week ago, I would cancel all payment ASAP pending a mutual settlement. All proceeds should be placed in escrow. Escrow charges, etc. will be comming out of their pockets. First of all, as bad as the jointer is, I cannot believe you dont have even more subtantial damage in the ceiling.

In terms of the jointer. Got some bad news for you. If this jointer is a standard wedge bed, you should remove the bed and clean up the outfeed ways. You may also need to clean up the area around the cutter head.

For the tables, I would begin with a medium scrotchbrite pad and move up to some very fine scotchbrite pads. Apply a small area of navel jelly and give it a few minutes to work. DO NOT ALLOW IT TO DRY. If you do, you need to reapply with some wet stuff. Work this area with the pad. Wipe up with a paper towel. When done, wash completely with warm water and wipe dry. IMMEDIATELY following the bubble bath with water, spary all machined surfaces that were expsosed with WD-40. Get the oll on the table and smeared out over the work area. Leave the WD-40 in liquid form for some time as it absorbs any stray water still attached to the main frame.


I have always heard (never used it myself), that navel jelly will leave the cast iron a real dull (ugly) gray color....

[Chet Parks]

I acquired a shaper with a table that was covered with several years of rust from sitting in a shead with high humidity in the summers. I used this:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G1956

with a Scotch brite pad and it cleaned up to where it looks like.

BTW, I apply a coat of "Butcher's Bowling Alley Wax" about once a month and all my CI tables still look like new.

Chet Parks

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

My old jointer was in bad shape when I got it, I used up a couple cans of WD-40 and then scraped it with a single sided razorblade, and cleaned it up again.

The I took my small angle grinder and put some pads that I got for it on the grinder, they were a fairly corse scotchbite kind of thing, then a medium, and a fine............

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/jointer/jointer_sanding1.jpg

A before and after pic.

Good luck!

[Ryan Ricks]

Well, I have at least cooled a little this morning (not all the way though). We are making some calls to the contractor to get things sorted out, and I'll start on the jointer beds after work tonight. I'll post an update when I get a chance to dig into it.

-Thanks,
Ryan

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

They owe you the cost of a new jointer. Not an apology not a few dollars a whole new jointer. They also owe you additional money damages because the conduct was willful and dishonest, the harms you suffered were forseeable, and the harms could have been avoided very easily for little cost.

If you pay a service like servepro to come out and fix the water damage they'll also be obligated to pay for that.

This is not a situation where you should take it on the chin.

[Ryan Ricks]

Okay, all, I appreciate the help. Let me ask for more. I went with the WD40 and scotchbrite pad. That was not enough, and I went to 180 then 220 grit sandpaper. The results are attached. Better, but I am still not happy. In the picture you can see the "grain" where the rust was. The closeup photo shows this more. The jointer appears useable, but in this state I am afraid I will alwasy be looking at it and getting mad - life is to short for that.

Is there a way to eliminate the "grain"? Will buffing take care of it? More sandpaper? Just live with it? I appreciate any thoughts.

Thanks
Ryan

[Cecil Arnold]

Enough sanding and buffing and you can have a mirror, it just depends on how much you want to do. You might try some red compound and a buffer after you go through the grits. When I was making knives I would start with 40 grit to shape the steel, and finished up with something similar to white compound for the final polish which gave stainless an almost mirror finish.

[Doug Shepard]

I've bought a few used machines in the past where the cast iron was that bad. Fortunately the biggest of these was a Delta Sanding Center and all the parts (even the table) was small enough to let them soak in WD40. That's not practical with your jointer tables but you might try building a dam out of something so that you can put a 1/16" to 1/8" layer of WD40 on them and let them soak good for a few days. I was able to get stuff cleaned up good after allowing them to soak before doing the sandpaper and more WD40 effort.

[Tim Morton]

Once I got to this point on the jointer I did, I took some MDF and made some sanding blocks with 220 grit and wd-40.....but my jointer was 10 years old and I bought it with lots of rust. Yours looks brand new and it was not rusty before the plumbers messed it up...they have insurance, I think I would demand that they replace the beds.....

[Bruce Page]

Ryan, I’ve used this trick to clean up some really nasty rust in the past with good results. If you have a hook & loop ROS, cut a piece of maroon scotch-brite into a 5” (or whatever size your ROS takes) disk and with some WD-40, work the tables with it. If your ROS is VS, set it to the slowest speed and use care not to dwell in any one area too long. Follow up with some grey scotch-brite. This is a messy process but it will clean up just about any rust problem, shy of heavy pitting.

[Al Willits]

Biggest thing I think is to have patience, douse the bed with WD-40 and take a break, let the stuff work on the rust for a while.
I once spent over 20 hours on a end mill table, not steady, but every hour or so I'd go back at with with another coating of WD-40 and elbow grease.

Good luck.

Al

[Shaun Wilson]

Ryan,
Like a few others have said, you basically have to "go through the grits" until you get the finish you are happy with. A few tips I've learned; an ROS (random orbit sander) will save you tons of time over hand sanding with a block, but there is a definate technique to it. Don't stay in one place too long - in fact, it is best to keep it moving back and forth lengthwise with the beds at a fairly good rate; every 2-3 seconds or so - back-forth-back-forth as you slowly work from one side to the other. Stroke length should be about 8-12 inches, depending on your arm length. Start at the cutterhead side of the table and work your way across and then down towards the end. Be careful not to overlap the sander too much with the edge of the table or it will slightly round the edges. It is mostly cosmetic, but you end up with a "soft" appearance that does not quite match the rest. When you get to the end don't stop the sander. Instead lift it up as it is moving off the end of the bed. It doesn't really matter much what fluid you use, WD40 is good and cheap, just that you use lots of it to keep the sandpaper from clogging up. Once that happens, your progress will pretty much stop until you relube or switch paper. I suggest starting with 220 grit, and then work your way DOWN until you have a uniform finish, then start working back up. If you start too fine, it will take forever - or never get there at all. Going through the grits starting at 120 or 150, you can clean up both beds of an 8" jointer in about an hour and end up with a mirror finish. Be sure to completely wipe off all residue between grits, otherwise you will be smearing grit from the previous cycle around and it will be less effective, especially at the finer grits. Silicone carbide paper works best on cast iron. I like to cut circles from sheets to fit my ROS, then stick them on with carpet tape. If you decide to go with a really fine/polish finish, work up to about 1200 or 1500 grit, then do a final pass with 1500 dry (no lube) with a previously used sheet. Using it dry will allow it to clog a little, which will give a really good polishing action. Please PM me if you have any questions, I'm glad to help.
Shaun

[Gary Breckenridge]

Small Claims Court:cool:

[Steve Clardy]

Wheeewww. What a mess. I'd be somewhat po'ed also.

[Allen Bookout]

Small Claims Court:cool:
The more that I think about it the more that I agree with Gary. An easy fix is one thing but this. The actions of the contractor and/or his workers is pure negligence. In fact it is worse than that. It is the attempted coverup on their part that really makes the whole situation inexcusable.

Inexcusable - "that cannot or should not be excused; unpardonable; unjustifiable"

I am one that tends to let things go by rather than really cause waves, but I would be all over this one. Maybe the contractor will settle with you to your satisfaction. If not off to court I would be and I have never taken anyone to court in all of my life.

Allen

[Mark Pruitt]

I've bought a few used machines in the past where the cast iron was that bad. Fortunately the biggest of these was a Delta Sanding Center and all the parts (even the table) was small enough to let them soak in WD40. That's not practical with your jointer tables but you might try building a dam out of something so that you can put a 1/16" to 1/8" layer of WD40 on them and let them soak good for a few days. I was able to get stuff cleaned up good after allowing them to soak before doing the sandpaper and more WD40 effort.
Doug's post gives me an idea that might work. If "soaking" smaller pieces in WD40 is effective, and the only issue with jointer beds is their size, then what about dousing the beds with WD40 and covering them with clear plastic wrap to prevent the WD40 from evaporating? Then letting it sit for a while.

I'm just thinking out loud. Have no idea as to the effectiveness of this but it seems like a logical extension of the soaking idea. .02

P.S. Ryan, I hope you''ll continue to be aggressive in pursuing them for compensation.

[Kevin Herber]

Ryan - I agree with the suggestions for WD-40 and abrasives. I did that with my new unisaw and got the surface like a mirror. I used 3m paper from an auto paint store. Went from 360 to 400 - 600 - 800 - 1000 - 1200. Why did I do it, heck I don't know but I sure like it!!! I used two full cans of WD40. I was not dealing with rust tho.

Regarding the bad work. You mentioned that you called the contractor. I took that to mean that you had a contractor who sent workers to do the work. If he was not on site most likely he did not know of the shoddy work. What was his reaction to your call? Hope he is a stand-up guy and will make things right before getting the courts involved.

Keep up posted on both issues and Good luck!! -- Kevin

[tim langford]

Other than a speeding ticket, I've had one experience with court and it was not good. Both me and the other guy spent more on lawyers than anyone got. It could well cost you more time and money and headaches than you will ever get out of it. The contractor clearly owes you but it might not be worth court.

First rule: Unless you are a lawyer, stay out of court.

Second rule: Stay away from lawyers or you'll likely end up in court.

Good luck.

[Allen Bookout]

First rule: Unless you are a lawyer, stay out of court.

Second rule: Stay away from lawyers or you'll likely end up in court.

Good luck.

PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!

Allen

[Fred Woodward]

I've removed similar surface rusting with the WD-40 method and progressively finer grit papers to 2000 and it worked out fine. I protect my rust prone areas with Corrosion X. It's a great product that seems to get right into the pores of the metal and lasts a long time. http://corrosionxproducts.com/
I use the Corrosion X as a primary protective coating but apply a paste wax as needed mainly as a bearing surface.

As for the contractor and damages; I would look for other water damages to structure of the building if the leak was very severe and would also look at my other cast iron surfaces in the shop for excess humidity issues.

[Jerry Olexa]

THAT is unbelievable!! The "cover up" really is the insult, hoping you wouldn't catch it..I feel your pain. Our society has its share of dishonest fast talking people out for the quick buck. You're on right track..

["Gary Brewer"]

I love Empire's "Top Saver". It works the best of all I have tried. Just spray it on and use a jointer push block on top of a scotch brite pad to work it in. It is very fast and effective. Do it two times and then a third time with out the block and pad and just buff it. It is a little expensive but works great! You will be amazed.

[Ryan Ricks]

I really appreciate everyone's replies. It is nice to have someplace where folks can understand why I am so upset - unfortunately many people just do not know how a person can become "attached" to the machinery. You know how it will behave, how to treat it, and how to get the best from it. Keep the ideas flowing - and thanks again.

-Ryan

[Parker Nicholson]

Sorry about your jointer damage! I would be mad too. As far as making the plumbers pay, by all means try to do so. Here is my experience with a painting contractor who damaged my property:
It took six months after the job was "completed" for the company to determine there was any damage. 2 months for their adjuster to get bids on repairs and another 4 months to get the payment "approved" . Our lawyer advised us not to go to court if possible as fees would eat up any payments. So one year after that we had our settlement.
Maybe you'll be lucky and your claim will go faster, but don't count on it.

[Jim Andrew]

Having dealt with these people for 30 years, I wouldn't bother with a lawyer, I'd just try to find out who their insurance co is. The easiest way
would be to get them to give you a certificate of insurance. That way you can call their agent and present him with your pictures and damage
estimate. In all my time doing business, I have never had a subcontractor
own up to the damage they caused me. The last time a plumber spilled some of that purple primer in a whirlpool, then lied and said no product he
uses could have damaged that tub. Also had sheetrockers break the tubs
and then smear mud on them so I would not see the damage till they were
done. Too bad you paid these weasels. I would be tempted to call the
bank and cancel the check and then send copies of the damage to the
company. If they take you to small claims court, you could just take your
pictures to court and countersue them for damages. No Lawyer Needed!
Jim