Need help teaching kids to saw by hand

[Tom Jones III]

A lot of the neighborhood kids come over to my shop after school and want to help me or build their own projects. I will not let them use power tools so I bought a cheap 20" stanley combo hand saw for them to use. I've successfully taught half a dozen halflings to saw a decent line, but the oldest (11 years) can't saw straight to save his life. He is smart enough that I told him we could build a bedside table when he can saw a straight line. For some reason he just can't do it even though his 6 yr old neighbor can do it.

I don't really know the "right" way myself, here is how I've taught it. I draw a line for a crosscut for a 1x6 of pine (for a birdhouse). I clamp the board and then clamp a piece of scrap adjacent to the line for a fence to help keep the saw aligned. I have them keep the saw, their elbow and shoulder all in the same plane. The smallest ones are so weak I let them do whatever comes naturally and they seem to pick it up very quickly.

Any tips? I'm not a very good teacher and I just can't seem to figure out his problem. I hate to see him get so frustrated, he has problems making/keeping friends and I don't want this to become another problem.

[harry strasil]

have you talked with his parents and or his teachers, he may have a vision problem or be dysletic or he may just be slow or have a hand eye coordination problem. Give him a test of several different sized bolts with the washers , lock washers and nuts in a seperate pile and see how he does putting the right ones together. My son was slow, and that's one of the ways I helped him.

[Dan Oelke]

I didn't start out with just a hand saw - but with a hand powered miter-box saw. It was a back saw with rollers that guided the front and back. The rollers were on a carraige that would swing +/- 45. It let me get straight and square cuts pretty easily.

Since my brother took off with that miter box I just bought one from the local used tool place to teach my son with. I don't know how it will work, but I guess I'll find out soon (maybe tonight???)

Ebay item 7605228699 is a close picture of what I mean.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Personally, my hand-eye coordination is really bad. REALLY bad (as in I test in the bottom 10th percentile). This probably explains a lot of my early frustration with saws -- but I wouldn't have thought of that because I've learned to compensate in so many ways.

[harry strasil]

Deidre, I lost the sight in my right eye while in the Navy when I was 20, I still have no depth perception, and it took me a few years to learn to compensate, but I did learn to compensate, I just don't try to catch flying things, like baseballs, etc.

[harry strasil]

another test Tom is to put a mark on each edge of a 1 by 6 and ask him to draw the straightest line between them he can.

[harry strasil]

some people have a natural hand eye coordination and using there hands come easy, others can't, remember Albert Einstein, had a wonderful brain, but he couldn't master tying his own shoe laces.

[Roger Nixon]

My grandson has a difficult time with western type saws but does well with a ryoba. It is also easier for smaller, weaker kids.

[Chris Moore]

Tom,
I've been where this kid is... the problem is not that he isn't carefule enough... it's that he is TOO careful. He's worrying about the line so much that he constantly making micro adjustments. Thus, a very crooked line. My grandfather cured me by making two dots. One where I should start and the other where I should end. It took a few tries, but before long I just sawed from A to B.

[Alan DuBoff]

have you talked with his parents and or his teachers, he may have a vision problem or be dysletic or he may just be slow or have a hand eye coordination problem. Give him a test of several different sized bolts with the washers , lock washers and nuts in a seperate pile and see how he does putting the right ones together. My son was slow, and that's one of the ways I helped him.That's a good idea. My son has always been a bit un-coordinated, and my daughter has always been pretty good at tasks that require coordination.

I'd like to try some of that with my son, and see if I could get him interested in working in the shop at all. He's very artistic, has always been good at music, drawing, and other art related areas. He could make an excellent woodworker, although my daughter seems more interested in it.

[Tom Jones III]

He definitely has some developmental problems, definitely has real ADD but there is an emotional problem as well. No vision or dyslexic problems. I've discussed this with his father and the biggest thing I'm worried about is frustrating him too much. He is already showing a little improvement with emotional control and I don't want to undo the progress giving him tasks beyond his abilities.

I took a closer look at what he is doing when he cuts. First, all cuts look like they are mitred 15* or so. In other words, the part of the cut closest to him is 1/8" to the left of the back of the cut. Second, the cut as it proceeds down the board moves evenly to the left.

I've been having him cut with the board oriented vertically, in other words the cut proceeds from higher to lower. I may try to have him set the board on a stool and cut in the horizontal plane with his body higher than the wood. I may also have him start using a miter box. It is better at this point to get him successful.

[Kent Fitzgerald]

I second the suggestion for a miter box. Yeah, it's a shortcut, crutch, easy way out, or whatever you want to call it, but it sounds like both you and the kid have reached a point of frustration. It's probably more important for him to be making progress on a project than perfecting this one skill. However he ends up making the cut, his time is much better spent on this than playing video games. Congrats on what you're doing!

[Michael Gibbons]

Tom, It sounds like he is tourquing his hand or he may be right handed and left eye dominate or vice versa? Try covering his eye that is opposite the hand he is using with a patch and see what happens. Thats what I did to correct my sons problem shooting his bow.

Mike

[Dan Racette]

him being to "strong" for the saw. wouldn't you say that if he wasn't letting the saw cut for him, that excessive lateral movement would create poor line tracking on the cut line? (which would even me more sensitive in a japanese saw).

Also see if his wrist and elbow are tracking straight and true. you could video tape him from directly head on and let him see how much his arm/wrist is drifting.

just a thought.

[Randall Houghton]

Tom

Check out a copyof Hand Tools Their Ways and Workings by Alden A Watson.
It about the best hand use instructions I've ever seen and in the section under saws it gives a detailed description of correct body mechanics and alignment.
You should probably help him make a low horse to hold his work on similar to the one Harry shows. Most hand saw cutting problems are from incorrect body mechanics believe I say that from first hand experience. Good luck

Regards
Randy

Bring back shop class to American schools!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

These days it might be well to be very concerned about any injury and how it might impact you. A kid slicing through tendons and losing partial use of his hand may be a remote thing - but - it can happen.
If you supply the equipment it can actually be worse for you.

People can surprise you. This so especially when there are children, pets, or money on the table. In those instances the most easy going of folks can become quite litigious.

You'd be far, far better off with the parents present right there in the shop. At least get a written permission.

[Alan DuBoff]

He definitely has some developmental problems, definitely has real ADD but there is an emotional problem as well.I've always been most curious over assertions of ADD, and was told my son had one of the worst cases the teacher had seen when she reccomended we put our son on medication.

When I started to read about ADD, it came to me that the description of this sounds like most all kids to me. I took my son to a doctor to get a professional opinion, and his assertion was that my son was very normal, but that because he was always taller than his colleagues, he was also more klumsy in regards to that (prior, the teacher asserted his motor skills with his hands were bad).

That was in 2nd grade. Now my son is in high school, his first year in 9th grade, and was on honor role almost the entire time during middle school which is one of the most difficult middle schools in the Cupertino School District (also one of the preferred districts in Silicon Valley). He has grades in High School of 5 As and 1 B, so that seems pretty good to me! :cool:

He was also accepted into an advanced placement art class with no prior art classes at his high school, just by the teacher looking at some of his work.

I suspect my son will be very good at woodworking, and I suspect his motor skills will continue to get better. Is he still klumsy? Yeah, sometimes he is so there is room for improvement. I still attribute his slight klumsiness to the fact that he has always been tall, fingers were always long (I wish he had played piano instead of sax sometimes), but just as the doctor told us...wait until he gets into middle and high school and his muscles start to develop, most likely it will disprove the assertion of ADD from the teacher and nurse...sure enough, he was one of the best long distance runners in his PE class last year...but more so that when his muscles do start developing, the short kids that were always more easily to maneuver around will be watching the taller kids start showing them how those klumsy kids just needed to grow into their size and develop their muscles.

I like Harry's suggestion of working with the kids, trying to get them to work on skills that will help them develop, and in the end I suspect many of these kids will grow into fine woodworkers...I sure hope mine does.

[harry strasil]

Alan, they wanted to put our son on medication too because he was slow, his mother and I refused because we knew what his problem was, he was a breach baby, and was a very difficult birth. He was always tall like I was when I was a child. I started my apprenticeship when I was 7 and was always better at manual skills than I was at book learning. I started taking him to work with me when he was young and he would work at something till he got it right, no matter how long it took and I encouraged that trait.

He had a difficult time reading, so I got him books about things he really enjoyed and his reading skills improved greatly. I never went out for sports when I was in school, and don't really care for sports, but did not discourage my children from doing so. My son liked cross country and he and two of his friends went out for that, he never finished in the top group, but he finished every race he was in, and I applauded him for that.

I was a self employed business man at the time and I never really got to go to many of my childrens sports events and the few I did get to go to I was usually called away by a Fire Call as I was the local Fire Chief for a number of years.

All my children, 1 boy and 3 girls joined the Civil Air Patrol and my Son was 17 and a Junior in High School and had attained the rank of Cadet/Master Sergeant when he was killed by lightning on a training mission at Fort Leonard Wood, Mo. He had a full Military Funeral and I am proud of the fact that he did not die from a criminal, alcohol or drug related incident, but tried his best to serve his fellow man in the best way he knew how.

And yes his motor skills did improve greatly from helping me in the blacksmith shop and also in the small basement wood shop I had at the time. He was a very patriotic young man but not the smartest kid on the block, but still smart in his own way. I visit him and his mother who are side by side out in the cemetary at least once a month and sometimes more often.

Enjoy your children every chance you get and help your children and any others you can, all you can. Life is to short sometimes.

[Jerry White]

Tom,

I don't have any answers as to why the boy is having difficulty. I just felt compelled to compliment you on your commitment to helping youngsters, and to your insight that the boy does need to experience some success at this point. You are doing a good thing!!! Stay with him and be patient.

Jerry

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan, they wanted to put our son on medication too because he was slow, his mother and I refused because we knew what his problem was, he was a breach baby, and was a very difficult birth.I feel there's too much analysis by the schools, trying to classify the children. Me and my wife had a meeting with Another school in our district, which is an alternative school, but because everyone wants to send their children to it, and the fact that there is only one in the district meant there was a 3 year wait. Ironically, the principal and nurse were replaced shortly after, and I hope my voice to the other principal did have an effect.

Kids will be kids, and it's taken me a while to appreciate my kids for the positive things, rather than critisizing them so much for the negative things. This, I think was something I learned from reading Dale Carnegie's, "How to win friends, and influence people". He uses example of how parents treat their children, which really hits home.

What is so odd is that my son was very slow, and didn't seem to have much concern with school, and quite a few teachers didn't like that much. Somehow in the 5th grade that changed, and he's been getting excellent grades and has been on honor roll for all but one semester of middle school.

I did get to thinking about how sawing could help him with his coordination. What better way to learn how to work with wood than getting him to start cutting dovetails. Will he like it? I don't know, he hasn't shown much interest in the shop, but as I say he is very artistic, plays music (marching band, concert band), and spends a lot of time with drawing and such.

All my children, 1 boy and 3 girls joined the Civil Air Patrol and my Son was 17 and a Junior in High School and had attained the rank of Cadet/Master Sergeant when he was killed by lightning on a training mission at Fort Leonard Wood, Mo. He had a full Military Funeral and I am proud of the fact that he did not die from a criminal, alcohol or drug related incident, but tried his best to serve his fellow man in the best way he knew how.I'm sorry to hear that, it must be tough for any parent to loose a child during their life. Good that you were able to do some things with him in your shops.

And yes his motor skills did improve greatly from helping me in the blacksmith shop and also in the small basement wood shop I had at the time.I hadn't thought about trying to get my son more interested, until reading your post. Certainly he doesn't currently have the same passion towards woodworking, but maybe he will pick that up in time. I often what happens to the kids of today as the shops are being closed down in the schools these days. Liability, lack of interest, and the high cost of keeping them going seems to be taking it's toll. I hope I can teach my kids to be resourceful and be able to fix their homes, cars, and have a place to work on wood, should they take to that passion... :)


Enjoy your children every chance you get and help your children and any others you can, all you can. Life is to short sometimes.I do, and I agree that life is too short sometimes. Could be me, could be them, none of us have any guarantees in life.

My hobby of working with wood is a way for me to leave things for my family, so that after I am gone, they'll have something to remember me by.

[Tom Jones III]

It is pretty obvious that he has ADD or some similar type of problem, he is motivated to get the skills so he can build a table but he just can't focus. He gets very irritated at himself for his lack of focus and keeps trying. If he doesn't give up this is going to be one self disciplined young man. His parents decided not to medicate and they are making great sacrifices to work with him.

We worked in the shop together yesterday. I'm going to have him use a miter box so that problem is solved for now. I had him try to chop out a few mortices with a chisel. He had enormous trouble getting both a 1/4" and a 1/2" chisel on the line I made for him. From amateur testing I did in the shop, his vision is excellent but he has very little fine motor skills. His large motor skills are fine, his parents put him in gymnastics several years ago and they said there has been much improvements. However, when it comes to small work like using a chisel or handwriting, his lack of control is disturbing.

Thanks for the help, I'm sure I'll be back with more questions as I take my crash course in neander methods. I'm hopeful that ww'ing and having a neutral adult to talk to will be a big help to him.

[tod evans]

tom, i have the approach with kids that i try and give them something they can accomplish as well as something they can strive for. my 14yo showed an interest in carving a little over a year ago so we picked out a horse pattern(her passion!), that was the goal, then i drew a series of rosettes on some scrap and turned her loose with both patterns. soon she was asking how to redraw the rosettes. she`d tried the horse which i found in the trash:) and was determined to master "grain" before she attempted it again. after several hours spread over a few weeks she was ready to try the horse again, the first several attempts where blows, but each showed marked improvement! finally she was able to bang out the horse pattern and made little placks for her friends at christmas..now she`s fiddling with the lathe.....no pressure just making beads-n-coves and on occasion the scrollsaw. this has been over the course of 2-3 yrs the point i`m trying to make is that success in the kids eyes is far more important than what or how they build. getting something finished and complimented on it will go a long way toward continuing in the vocation/hobby ect... keep with the fellow he needs to suceed...tod

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Tom,

Enough of this negative self talk! You are an awesome teacher! First you are doing this, second you are putting so much of your time and research into helping your student.

This will probably be a life long struggle for this young man. (speaking from experience) The use of a miter box isn't that big of a cheat especially if he achieves a compleated project and is further inspired. I hold the saw way too tight and have a miserable time followiing the line.

Fine motor control is a skill and may take a lot of work for him to master. I type even personal letters to spare the person recieving it from trying to decipher my writing.

I'll send you a PM with some information.

[Chuck Nickerson]

I've really been having trouble with handsawing. (Who knew buying the tools would be the easy part.) There are several suggestions here for me to try. Thanks!