Advance Notice - Neander only drawing

[harry strasil]

Due to the interest in the little veneer saw I posted, Mike Wenzloff and Jr Strasil are co-conspirators in offering a drawing for a Small Veneer Frame Saw on (date to be decided on), Blade by MIke, Frame and Tensioning Hardware by Jr.

This Saw will not be of exotic woods, just an exotic blade and a working mans saw of Native Black Walnut and Oak, with hand forged Hardware.

Restricted to Neanderthal Haven posters who use mainly hand tools and who are Registered Members of Saw Mill Creek as of May 15, 2006.

Winner will be Responsible for Postage.

Participants in the drawing will be Required to Enter the Drawing by (a means yet to be decided).

[Alan Turner]

I'm in; where do I sign!

[John Timberlake]

Sounds like a great drawing. I use a combination of power and hand tools. Do I quality? Here is a chair that I made. The only power tool was the chain saw to cut down the trees. Even split out the ash for the seat. I use them when I go French and Indian War Re-enacting.
38964 38965

[Mike Henderson]

Sign me up.

When I first read the posting, I thought plans (a drawing) for the saw were being offered so that we could make our own. Since only one person can win, and I never win anything, I wouldn't mind actually being able to get a set of drawings, if they're available, as a consolation prize.

Mike

[harry strasil]

The post was just a little advance warning of what we are up to. Notice will be given of when and where to sign up after the saw is made and Mike gets a chance to fine tune the blade and try it. When it is finished and tuned pictures will be posted and the sign up frenzy can start. Mike may be a little perplexed as he as a co-maker is not elligible. We still have some things to work out yet.

please be patient fellow neanders. Thank you

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I'm in too, as soon as y'all are ready. I was asking about resawing by hand and I have the perfect project for it. ;)

(Heck, I'd buy one, you know?)

[tod evans]

i`d like to be in? but i too burn electrons. tod

[James Mittlefehldt]

Count me in on that one, but like Michael said above since we cannot all be winners a drawing would be nice, along with some methodology or whatever it is you call instructions.

[harry strasil]

On the Blacksmith site I do BluePrints ( a step by step procedure with pictures), I can do that here to I guess.

[Martin Shupe]

Sounds like a great drawing. I use a combination of power and hand tools. Do I quality? Here is a chair that I made. The only power tool was the chain saw to cut down the trees. Even split out the ash for the seat. I use them when I go French and Indian War Re-enacting.
38964 38965

John,

Are you going to make it to Vincennes next weekend? Is it any good?

Do you know Tony "Jean Baptist" Gerard? aka Snake?

I used to do the Mountain Man thing, but then I got married. I need to get back into it.

I might stop in at Vincennes if the weather is not too bad.

[Keith Outten]

Due to the interest in the little veneer saw I posted, Mike Wenzloff and Jr Strasil are co-conspirators in offering a drawing for a Small Veneer Frame Saw on (date to be decided on), Blade by MIke, Frame and Tensioning Hardware by Jr.

This Saw will not be of exotic woods, just an exotic blade and a working mans saw of Native Black Walnut and Oak, with hand forged Hardware.

Restricted to Neanderthal Haven posters who use mainly hand tools and who are Registered Members of Saw Mill Creek as of May 15, 2006.

Winner will be Responsible for Postage.

Participants in the drawing will be Required to Enter the Drawing by (a means yet to be decided).


Harry,

At SMC we have never excluded any member from a drawing. If this policy is to be changed then it should be the majority of our Members who make the decision. Allowing special groups to initiate their own drawings could cause hard feelings amoung other groups which has always been a major concern here at The Creek. Even the creation of new Forums has seen lots of active discussion with concerns expressed over splitting our Members.

You may want to bring this up for general discussion before you move forward.

.

[Mike Henderson]

Keith, Harry,

I certainly understand the reasons for the existing policy. That said, the saw Harry and Mike are offering would be of little interest to anyone except a neander. It would be nice to see it go to someone who has an interest in it and would likely use it.

Rather than try to change the policy, perhaps Harry can announce that a drawing will be held somewhere else (Harry, do you have a web site?), and people need to go there to submit their name for the drawing.

Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

Harry, we can do this perhaps on Roger's site. I'll pop him an email.

Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

I just contact Roger, Harry.

We will let y'all know soon what will be of a drawing, and where.

Take care, Mike

[harry strasil]

Sounds Ok to me Mike, Roger is a good fellow and has a nice site.

[Mike Henderson]

Stu, my suggestion was not made to exclude anyone, but to let people who are interested in the saw include themselves. I don't see the value of giving someone a tool that they have no interest in.

I'm somewhat new to the Creek so maybe this is touching a nerve that I'm not aware of.

Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

It was never about exclusion.

But really. Opening it up to 20k people of whom would never want or use it seems a little silly, don't you think, Stu?

If someone wanted to put their hat in the ring, they could have.

Still can if someone wants to follow the prize. No big deal. At least, it doesn't have to be--and was never meant to be.

Take care, Mike

[harry strasil]

I agree with Mike completely, seemed to me all the free stuff was geared toward the tailed side of Woodworking. As there was quite a few interested in the little veneer saw and some were having problems with the traditional method of resawing, it just seemed like a good idea to me to have a drawing for something the Neander side could and would use. I am sorry the Administrator saw fit to put a crimp in the method Mike and I were using to give the neanders something to look forward to, and possibly having a chance of acquiring and using a traditional tool. I don't think fastening a cord to it would make it work anyway. LOL

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Well, how about opening it up to people who promise to use it to resaw wood (with pics)? :)

That would limit it a bit without specifically excluding anyone (people would exclude themselves rather than having the originators exclude them). Psychology.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Deirdre,

That's all it really was--even without the promise to use it. Though it would have been wasteful to want it and not use it at least once.

The list was to have been generated from posters to this forum. Seems to me that would have been a pretty open list: all here who have an interest in using hand tools have at least at some point in the past posted here.

It's no big deal. Anyone here who wants to can still throw their hat in the ring at somepoint.

Take care, Mike
who thinks Harry's generosity was a gracious attempt to encourage handtool use.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Stu, please do not take such great offense.

It was a nice thing for Harry to think of such a gift. I was asked to make the blade for the saw. I thought it would make a nice gift. Plain and simple.

I don't think it was up to you, or even myself, to judge or malign the giver--Harry--in how he wished to be benificient. It was the giver's love of hand tools and an expression of wanting to give in this way. Far be it from me to judge his intentions.

No one had to pass a test, make a proclamation to being a neander to any degree, or have a post count great than 'X'.

It really was a further expression of Harry's teaching and demonstration which he does everyday. That he thought to do so in this manner, on SMC and then to have his motives attacked or maligned is very unfortunate.

I find your tone unfortunate.

More than likely this thread will disappear. That too would be unfortunate.

Take care, Mike

[Keith Outten]

Our woodworking community here at SMC has never believed in any type of division or exclusion. If you think about it this is one of the reasons that many find SMC a comfortable and friendly place. Men, women, children and woodworkers of all levels of experience are welcome and everyone is treated equally. As soon as you start any type of exclusive activity the tone of our community may change.

In our FreeStuff drawings we never have given any weight to those who have thousands of posts over those who have just joined SMC. This was discussed publicly in our Forums and there were a few that prefered to give those who were long-time Members an advantage. We decided against it simply because new Members would never be able to catch up and it be counter productive to our goals.

The policy of everyone being equal has always had the majority's support.

.

[Mike Wenzloff]

I understand all this, Keith.

Got a questoin. Are the turner's the only ones who get to participate in the Dirty Turning exchange?

Because I gotta say, it was never publicised in the other forums that a wood exchange was occuring. Isn't that exclusive?

It is the problem of the mods to draw the line someplace. I respect that. I do believe the proper thing to have done is for you to provately contact Harry, let him know the point of your earlier message and perhaps attempt to guide him into changing the manner in which the gift was to be given.

For instance, perhaps you could have suggested an SMC-wide contest where the entries were made via handtools or at least a significant portion thereof. Would that have been too exclusionary? Obviously it would have been open to all who desired to participate.

And if not that, then a different solution probably cold have been found.
Not much different than a wood exchange where no one who doesn't read the turning forum would even know anything about it.

Instead, there are people essentially calling into question a fellow SMCer's ethics and intentions--and apparently getting away with it.

These people could have been part of a solution instead of castigating another's character. Sad.

Take care, Mike

[Dave Anderson NH]

I would ask you guys to end this part of the discussion about motives and who said what. So far the thread is within bounds, but it is dangerously close to becoming one which engenders ill feeling. Rather than expending your energy in defense of viewpoints, interpreting others remarks, or guessing motives, I offer you a challenge.

With the assistance of Harry, see if you can find a method of meeting the spirit of SMC yet having a contest where you get the intended results.

[tod evans]

well ya`ll........i chip in my .02 on darn near every forum smc has and i personally haven`t felt left out of any drawings or contests? my earlier post in this thread about "burning electrons" was intended to open the door so as not to exclude those who walk on both sides of the street.
i believe that very few of those of us who post on the neander forum strictly use human powered tools, just as those who post on the turning or lazer forums stick strictly to those venues?
i don`t think harry(jr) or mike where wrong in wanting a tool they make to go to a person who will use it, but in the same sentence i agree with stu that the wording could have been phrased differently.
so........i think it would be wonderful if their drawing was allowed to continue, and i think it would be wrong of stu to exclude himself unless he wouldn`t ever use the saw.....but i do think it would be fair to all of smc if the drawing does take place that the winner give his or her word that if for some reason they find they`re not using the saw they will put it back up for another drawing.

please don`t dissect this post lookin for hidden meanings, there are none. it`s only my...02 tod

[Charles McKinley]

I can't believe that the proposal of giving away a saw has turned into such an ugly thread.

Please remember that tone is almost impossible to interpet in the written word. Especially in often hastilly written internet post.

It takes all of us to keep SMC to great place that it is.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I guess for the same reason why the Turners were not informed about the saw give away. ;) :rolleyes: :)

Heck, I thought we alienated EVERYONE just by being Turners :D

Heck, I thought we alienated EVERYONE over here just by being hand tool users. :D

[Peter Mc Mahon]

I think that as free people we can do what we want. If Harry wants to give away a saw to neanders only then that is his right. If people here have a problem with that, then it must be due to SMC rules, and therefore any bickering should be directed at SMC for allowing Harry to post something that violates the rules. Peter

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Harry and I think Harry alone would decide who a neander is. It is his right, and if someone has a problelm with that it must be with SMC rules. I think it is fine if someone wants to give something away to their group only. However if it is against the policy of SMC then it is obviously not OK. If the dilemma is "who qualifies as a neander" then again the problem is with SMC and not with Harry. The rules about how this forum operates were in place before the saw contest was posted. So if the term Neander needs to be established to define who may enter the contest, and then exclusivity is determined to be a problem because it is Neanders only, the problem lies with SMC for allowing the post to be viewed in the first place. Just for the record I think it is somewhat odd that there are several different forums on SMC neander, turner etc. Yet the problem with this post is it somehow excludes people from outside of this forum [neander] My thoughts anyhow. Peter

[Aaron Koehl]

Due to the interest in the little veneer saw I posted, Mike Wenzloff and Jr Strasil are co-conspirators in offering a drawing for a Small Veneer Frame Saw on (date to be decided on), Blade by MIke, Frame and Tensioning Hardware by Jr.

This Saw will not be of exotic woods, just an exotic blade and a working mans saw of Native Black Walnut and Oak, with hand forged Hardware.

Restricted to Neanderthal Haven posters who use mainly hand tools and who are Registered Members of Saw Mill Creek as of May 15, 2006.

Winner will be Responsible for Postage.

Participants in the drawing will be Required to Enter the Drawing by (a means yet to be decided).
We have had one opt-in drawing in the past, so the mechanics and programming are already built. There are quite a few members out there who might know someone who would be interested in such a prize--we would not exclude them from entering.

I should mention that if you're interested in conducting a giveaway at SawmillCreek, please contact the administrator (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=111) first.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Thank you Aaron.

I think by now we understand.

Take care, Mike

[Greg Tatum]

In the context of the SMC forum, why is an exclusive drawing a problem? Discrimination implies that someone is being hurt by a particular action... this doesn't hurt anyone....it's a woodworking give-away not a job opportunity or housing lottery...so what if you miss out on a freebie because you don't participate in a certain forum...you are not hurt...you have exactly what you had to start with.

Out of over 7000 members there appears to be only 10 or so individual responses to this thread with 1100+ views....if there was/is a problem with this offering then I would expect more comments....as it is, there are not, so, let them have their drawing.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Good morning Stu. Me stating that Harry would decide who a neander is........I can sit here and decide that I am going to give away something and it will only be to a neander. Nothing wrong with that, nobody to stop me. If I enter the smc forum then it violates the rules so there is an end put to it. I stated that it is his right to decide.......it is his right because it is his contest and prize. Again when he entered the domain of this forum it no longer became his right. If you want to give something away to someone in your state race sex religion etc. That is perfectly fine with me. I think that is part of freedom. Yes I read the rules when I signed up. I do not think that Harry intended on breaking the rules. It was probably just an innocent accident. Who qualifies as a neander........I did not miss the point...........The point is not with excluding others, the point is excluding others breaks the rules. Again I do not believe that Harry did this in any cold hearted way, it was just an accident. I believe this is why we have moderators. I do strongly support free speach. SMC only allows me to say certain things and it is there house so I respect that. Sitting here at home I can dream up a contest and a prize and then decide a select group of people that I want to let enter the contest. All of this is well within my rights [as a Canadian]. When I enter the SMC house though I must respect the rules that I agreed to. If I make an error in what I can and cannot say on the forum then I would guess that a moderator would step in to correct me. Lastly, taking the single statement of I think that it is odd that we have different groups turners neanders etc. Yet the problem with this is that is excludes people from outside of this forum [neander]. and breaking it into 2 distinct statements is "lawyeristic" So in the end what I see is this. You can sit at home and dream up a contest, choose the group of people who may enter, and then post it on the neander page at smc without thinking that it is a violation of smc rules. If it turns out to be against smc rules but not against civil rules or moral rules, then any problems with the contest must be directed towards smc for allowing its rules to be broken. Because how can you blame someone for dreaming up a contest and then posting it? Even if it is to a specific group of people that smc determines to be a specific group of people? Peter

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Peter and Stu..........if I may inject a couple of thoughts....

1. The SMC TOSs were IIRC drawn up by the membership when the site was first established.

2. The forums...turners....neanders...etc......were established at the request of members as a way of more quickly getting to the posts of their own personal interests............

3....It's sure nice to see you two Canadians talking/typing to each other!:eek: :rolleyes: :D

[Ed Nelson978]

Jr.
This was an incredibly generous offer. I am new to this forum, but have been browsing the posts for some time now and thoroughly enjoy the information and projects you have posted. Please don't stop.

It is unfortunate that you made the decision to withdraw the offer in another post. Isn't it always the way, in a world that people seem to find find a way to be offended by the most trivial of things, that a person can't do a good deed without worrying about litigation. People have to read some secret hidden message into everything when there is no hidden message to begin with. You would think people could enjoy and appreciate the spirit of of such an offer of genorisity. I have no use at this time for such a saw and therefor would not have entered the contest.

Once again please keep the posts coming!

[Don Baer]

Since I am only a part time Neander and not wanting to upset anyone I refrainded from posting until now. That said I consider the neander methods a lost art and am glad for this part of the forum to learn how to properly use hand tools. I have learned a great deal here and will continue to read this forum for just that reason. I would think that those who are ture neaders would want to promote the art form and encourage others join in and learn as I have. I only own a few hand planes some chisels and a few rasps and 1 small dovetail saw. I use all of my hand tools from time to time. So would I be excluded from a contest such as this because I use both corded and non corded tools. What about others who do as I do. I think that the all inclusivness of the creek is a good thing and also thiink that anyone who would win a fine saw would treasue it and use it or they would pass on recieveing the item should they win.