My turn - DC questions/thoughts

[Jeff Horton]

Finally got the point I can get serious about buying/installing Dust Collection in the shop. I have settled on a ClearVue. Even though I cringe at spending a $1300+ plus to get this installed. My health is worth it to me. I am not cheap but I am very careful with my money. Just call me frugal! I approach spending money like it was a business. I look at the benefit vs the cost.

Some questions

I have been round and round about where to install the unit. The other day I was in the bathroom in my shop and was looking a the water heater when it occurred to me the DC and WH were about the same size. Need to measure but I think I can put the DC in there and still have adequate access to the sink. Is there any disadvantage to putting the DC in a separate room I have not though of? Door to the room stays open and there a large gap between the floor joists for air flow even if the door is closed. It does make for longer duct runs and thats a downside I know. But I am fortunate to have a large shop and there is no way around long duct runs.
Other than drawing out the conditioned air in the shop are there are disadvantages to blowing the air outside? I have that option. With the cost of filters and the mess of cleaning them (seems to defeat the purpose of having DC) I tend to lean toward this option.
Going to run SD PVC pipe. Just curious how you hang it from the ceiling? I have exposed joist in my basement shop. Noise is an issue and would like like to isolate the duct from the joist but I am not going to spend big money on special hangers either. (remember I am frugal).
Noise! Everyone comments on the noise the Clearvue makes. Living space is upstairs and expect for my lunchbox planer running hard woods dear wife says noise is not a problem. I am afraid the DC will change that. How loud are they and how much does the muffler help?

[Jim Becker]

Putting the DC in a separate room was a priority for me. I see zero down-sides other than you need to monitor the bin with volition to insure you don't over fill it and blow "stuff" into your filters. The closet also helps with the noise factor. Be sure you baffle your air return to the shop to avoid direct sound transmission.

Exhausting outside is certainly an option provided you're cool with the heat/AC aspects you mention and also do not have any kind of heating source with a flame in place. (Heat or hot water) That can be dangerous.

[Kent Fitzgerald]

Other than drawing out the conditioned air in the shop are there are disadvantages to blowing the air outside?I think "drawing out the conditioned air" is bit of an understatement. If you've designed your DC system for the recommended 800 CFM, the DC will completely exhaust a 20x30x8' shop in 6 minutes flat. You're going to have to keep a window open for replacement air - if you don't, you're choking the performance of the DC way down.

If you live in a very moderate climate, fine, but heating or cooling will be pretty much impossible. When I read that people exhaust their DC outside, and claim that it doesn't affect their HVAC, I strongly suspect that they're not allowing sufficient replacement air in.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

As long as you have access to get the dust bin out for emptying, putting it in another room is a good idea.

If you look on Bill's site, you will find a sensor that tells you when the bin is getting full.

The clear vue will NOT fill your filters with dust, it is well designed, so this is not going to be a problem.

Exhausting outside is a neat idea, but I think that you may run into problems with heating/cooling, like everyone else has said.

BTW, when you hook up your lunchbox planer to the Cyclone, be warned, the sound it LOUD :eek:

Or at least it is with my Makita, the air being sucked out is going over the planer blades spinning at high-speeds, and this creates an "Air-Raid Siren" sound effect, cool, but it freaked me out BIG time the first time it happened :D

I used the plumber tape stuff to hang my PVC ducts, you know the stuff, a flexy metal tape about an inch wide with holes in it. Where the duct touches the joists just put some thick foam of some sort in between the two.

Sounds like you have you ducks in a row, good for you.

BTW, I think you ARE being frugal by getting the ClearVue and doing it right

[tod evans]

jeff, although i haven`t tried it how about bicycle innertubes for pipe mounting straps? is it possible for you to mount the blower and cyclone outside? if so you can build a large chip storage container and vent the exhaust outdoors when you`re not using conditioned air. hook up the filters when you`ve got the heat/ac running, should be a spring-n-fall deal? just thoughts...02 tod

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

jeff, although i haven`t tried it how about bicycle innertubes for pipe mounting straps? is it possible for you to mount the blower and cyclone outside? if so you can build a large chip storage container and vent the exhaust outdoors when you`re not using conditioned air. hook up the filters when you`ve got the heat/ac running, should be a spring-n-fall deal? just thoughts...02 tod

If you live in a very dry area, the the bike inner tubes are not a bad idea, but the ducting is HEAVY! (I know, I man handled it all in place by myself), if it is humid, the bike tubes will not last long, they rot.

I have this problem here, I use motorcycle tubes for stuff, cut them about 1/2" wide and you have a VERY good strong thick rubber-band, but, they last less than a year.

Cheers!

[Bill Pentz]

Jeff,

Although you get many air changes an hour from venting outside, most large commercial woodworking shops have been venting their cyclones directly outside for decades. They found that use of radiant heaters which do not rely on the air to carry the heat are more than ample to keep up with heat loss in all but the coldest of climates. Conversely, if you air condition your shop, then blowing outside will deplete your cooled air near instantly. What I tell most to do is use a diverter valve or wye with dual blast gates. When the outside weather is good, send the dusty air outside and open a door or window. When the weather is bad, use as big of fine filters as you practically can. Also remember to regularly blow out your shop with a big compressor or leaf blower to keep the fine dust levels from growing dangerously unhealthy.

With oil prices having gone crazy the $8 I was paying for a 20' length of 6" ASTM 2729 PVC pipe has now turned into nearly $30. Fittings have jumped from a few dollars each to some costing over $20 each. At these kinds of prices my last few systems I’ve helped others install ended up using less costly galvanized HVAC ducting from the local box stores and local HVAC outlets coupled with the self-cleaning blast gates from Lee Valley and the longer bigger radius transitions and wyes from Ken Craft. In short, you need to do some shopping now to decide what ducting will work best and still be affordable.

[Dan Larson]

Going to run SD PVC pipe. Just curious how you hang it from the ceiling? I have exposed joist in my basement shop. Noise is an issue and would like like to isolate the duct from the joist but I am not going to spend big money on special hangers either. (remember I am frugal).


Cheepo light-duty chain, eye screws, and hooks.
38892
Quick, easy, infinitely re-adjustable, and effectively isolates DC system vibration from the joists.

Dan

[Jeff Horton]

.... use of radiant heaters which do not rely on the air to carry the heat are more than ample to keep up with heat loss... if you air condition your shop, then blowing outside will deplete your cooled air near instantly. What I tell most to do is use a diverter valve or wye with dual blast gates. .....
Thanks for the great advice and ideas Bill. Diverter valve is just a great idea. Almost obvious but of course something I had not even thought of. I live in the humid south so A/C is almost a must by the middle of summer.



With oil prices having gone crazy the $8 I was paying for a 20' length of 6" ASTM 2729 PVC pipe has now turned into nearly $30. Fittings have jumped from a few dollars each to some costing over $20 each.
I had not priced anything yet. I walked past the pipe the other day in the Borg and I think it was just over $20. I have never priced the large pipe before so didn't know it if was up or not. But I was thinking that it would not be cheap to run all that duct work. When I get ready to install I will look at the metal too. I have buddy that does HVAC repair works and he might be able to get me some ductwork wholesale or at a discount too.

Also, would like to personally say thank you for all the work you done. I have refered to your site several times and always recommend it.

[Bill Pentz]

Jeff,

You are most welcome and thanks for the kind words. With my no longer able to make much dust, at least I can spend my time trying to help.

Roy McBrayer is in the middle of putting up his cyclone that is a twin to Stu's and is using all galvanized steel ducting. He showed me a very slick system that uses the long nylon cable ties from the home centers that slip through cable tie mounts that are screwed through his sheetrock into the studs (see picture below). He uses a cable tie tool to pull each cable up tight. He shared the following link and I bought some that work well. I shared out this once before and a couple found other sites on the Internet that are a little less expensive.

Parts Express
1-800-338-0531
www.parts-express.com
P/N 080-512
Cable Tie Mount 10 PCS - $2.25

http://BillPentz.com/Woodworking/Cyclone/McBrayerTies.jpg

[Dev Emch]

Hmmm....

I think that ducting to the outside is the best overall method for DC but in cold climes, this can cost money in terms of lost heat.

Soooooo, why not utilize an air to air heat exchanger? For example, a contraption similar to a magic heat blower for wood stoves.

In such a system, a tube would bring incomming clean air into the shop and run it through the exchanger before it vents it inside the shop. The exchanger is effectively a metal box containing pass through tubes for the incomming air. The tube may need to be shaped or positioned to allow dust or particulate aerosols to pass around them on the way out. We are assuming we have already removed the bulk of the chunkies in the vortex.

Just a crazy idea.

[Jim Becker]

I have used the 24" heavy plastic wire ties that Bill shows in the picture for holding up my duct for years now. Inexpensive, relatively speaking, easy to use and...easy to cut when you want/need to change things around. Dampens vibration, too... ;)