Little addition-Gloat w/pic

[John Miliunas]

Just so you guys know, I've not been completely lost to the vortex of the spinny thing, I come to you with some proof! :D Some say form follows function, while others are more concerned with the aesthetics of a tool. I'm here to say that, my long-awaited acquisition fulfills both needs quite nicely, thank you! :)

Way back when, I had asked Leif Hanson of "Norse Woodsmith" if he had any of his custom made DT saws available. He told me at the time that, he was taking a bit of a breather from it but, would keep me in mind when he cranked it back up. Well, last week, I got a PM from him asking if I was still interested. Here's the results of that exchange! :D

To say I'm impressed with the appearance and performance of this little saw would be an understatement! In short, it's awesome on all counts! :D Leif has certainly done his homework on this piece and the execution of this tool is absolutely flawless. Of course, that Cocobolo handle adds a great amount of appeal to the overall appearance. Exquisite craftsmanship throughout! :)

I threw a piece of 1/2" Cherry in the vise and lined up my old Disston, my Tashiro Japanese DT saw and the Norse saws. The Disston and Tashiro saws won the awards for easiest to start the cuts. Both of them have rather high TPI's. On the downside, the Disston was slow and left a pretty hefty kerf. The Tashiro has a nice thin kerf but, was also quite slow. The Norse, OTOH, although a bit tougher starting the cut, won hands down in the speed contest! :) Further, it did so with as slim and clean a kerf as the Tashiro! I imagine that, with a little practice, I'll have the "startup" cut down, as well and have even more fun with it! FWIW, I have also owned (past tense) a LN dovetail saw. I love LN and it was a nice quality saw but, the Norse has it beat, IMHO!

Leif has an "old world" way of doing business, as well. He quoted me a price on the saw and I asked him for his PayPal account to "wire" him the money. He insisted to not do that until I received the saw and had a chance to try it out. If I liked it, I would then forward him payment. If I didn't like it, I should simply send it back and call it good. In case you haven't figured it out, I'm not sending this beauty back! It's MINE!!!!:D Great job, Leif!!! :) :cool:

[Mike Wenzloff]

Congrats! Always good to have a quality saw in the house, so to speak.

Take care--and watch that slope.

Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Nice looking saw! I've always liked the looks of Leif's handles, which are done by hand, opposed to some of the quality saws that have the handles done on routers and CNCs.

Also one of the things I admire about Mike Wenzloff's saws as well. Nothing quite like a handcrafted tool in that regard.

[Steve Clardy]

Little stealth gloat:confused: :confused: :confused:

I'd say that was a big one:D

Looks nice. I always drool thinking about Leif and Mikes saws.;) :)

[Tyler Howell]

SUUUUUWEEEEEEET!

[Brad Schmid]

Ohh Yeahhhh, that is beautiful!

[tod evans]

nice saw, normal folk......what`s not to like? cool gloat john! .02 tod

[Leif Hanson]

Thanks, John!

I hope it serves you well for many, many years. :) They are fun to make, too... :D :cool:

Leif

[Jerry Olexa]

Spring, that is a Beautiful piece of craftmanship!! Enjoy it....Enviously, JO

[Dan Racette]

you know that saw won't work in your shop. It will wobble, because you are too close to the Wisconsin River. Definitely need to leave that at my place. I am JUST out of range.

:cool:

[Martin Shupe]

Difficulty starting cuts....

I would like to see a discussion about why the highest quality saws are so hard to start.

It was discussed once over at WC, but I neglected to print it out.

I have a LN and an Adria, and I have never been able to "learn" how to start them easier, although I have watched others who seem to have no problems starting them.

The WC discussion talked about adjusting the "rake angle" I believe, but I can't remember if there were any downsides.

Leif, or anyone, can you comment?

[Jim Becker]

Nice! Very nice!

[Leif Hanson]

Sorry for the rambling nature of the following...

Difficulty in starting cuts can be from a few different things...

First, an explanation of rake angle - here's a quick diagram of the rake angles on a rip saw:

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/images/angle-rip.gif

The top one is a more aggressive rake angle - by lowering that angle, such as you see in the bottom diagram, the saw becomes easier to start. This comes with a price, as the saw will also cut slower, too... There's a "sweet spot" in there where it starts pretty easily and cuts fast enough.
Sometimes its more than what you see above - I've known more than a few who have a 15 degree angle (rather than the 8 degree angle shown in the lower part of the diagram above) and are happy with it.

If you are having difficulty starting the cut, here's some reasons that could be why:

First off, a freshly sharpened saw is harder to start than a dull one. The cutting edge of sharp teeth are going to grab the wood much more than a dull one would. One experienced with saws might look for this, because if it's not there it's a sign the saw is dull or at least starting to get dull. Practice makes a great deal of difference in being able to start saws easily.

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/images/FigureA.gif

Figure A shows a normal saw at the start of a cut. The corner of the stock being cut protrudes into the teeth, forcing the saw to take too big of a bite. After the saw gets going, the angle is closer to that of the saw, and the teeth can then take light shavings off instead of a big chunk, similar to what you see in Figure B.

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/images/FigureB.gif

To start the cut easier, there are three things to try - first, you can try pull the saw towards you to start the kerf, which will start a shallow cut by breaking through the corner of the board. In Figure B - you can see the reduced angle of both the teeth in the pull direction, and in the stock after the initial cut has been made. What you've done is changed the effective angle of the cut, lessening the bite the teeth need to take.
Pulling the saw can cause a bit of tear-out at the corner. If that's an issue, score the cut first with a utility or marking knife.

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/images/FigureC.gif

A second alternative, shown in Figure C is to can lower the angle of the saw. The lower the angle, the easier the saw will cut (though tear-out might be an issue, especially with coarser saws).

Another technique is to lift about half of the weight of the saw off of the board for the first cut or two. Many times you are simply trying to force the saw too much, putting too much weight behind the cutting motion - which causes the teeth to dig into the wood, making it harder to start the cut.

For cutting dovetails, where you have a line across the end of a board that you need to follow, here's a variation of the above to try (I believe this is the same method that Rob Cosman advocates, but not sure on that):


Start with the saw almost (just a couple of degrees off of) parallel with the end of the board, starting the cut on the far side of the board (even more so than in Figure C above, but basically the same idea). Watch the angle - try it on a scrap first... Too high of an angle and the saw will be difficult to start and you might get too much tear out on the far side (a good reason to use a marking knife rather than a pencil!). Too little of an angle and the saw will be difficult to keep straight on the line (it will want to jump).
Once you are practiced, starting the saw this way will become second hand. It also reminds one that there is more than one way to skin a cat...

HTH
Leif

[Martin Shupe]

Thanks Leif, I really appreciate the time you took to do all those diagrams in order to explain it to me.

I think figure A is my problem, and I'll try your solutions.

By the way, I have followed your saw making exploits here and on WC. You are a master!

Thanks again,

[John Miliunas]

Ditto to what Martin said!!! Thanks, Leif! I will most definitely spend some time practicing technique. Like I said before, once I get the cut started, it's like a hot knife through butta'!!! :D :cool:

[Jerry Olexa]

it's like a hot knife through butta'[/U]!!! :D :cool:

OR Cheeeeze :) :) :) :) :D :D :D

[Louis Bois]

Nice one John...now how about one of those half-backs to go with its little brother?!? That fragile little thing may need protection from those big ole nasty boards!!!:p

[John Miliunas]

Nice one John...now how about one of those half-backs to go with its little brother?!? That fragile little thing may need protection from those big ole nasty boards!!!:p

Teany, teansy, tiny steps, Louis! Heck, I put the bulk of the $$ away for this one when I first contacted Leif, so it wasn't a major drain to pick it up right away now. :) That's OK, 'cuz I still need to learn how to use this one and start making DT's for small projects before I "graduate" to the big stuff! :) :cool:

[Alan DuBoff]

Teany, teansy, tiny steps, Louis! Heck, I put the bulk of the $$ away for this one when I first contacted Leif, so it wasn't a major drain to pick it up right away now. :) That's OK, 'cuz I still need to learn how to use this one and start making DT's for small projects before I "graduate" to the big stuff! :) :cool:I highly reccomend a bit of practice, the "Frank Klausz" way. What I like about practicing with this style is that it allows one to focus on doing it, rather than spending a bunch of time laying out the joinery. Frank Klausz uses a method that doesn't use many measuring tools for laying out the pins and tails. Also, Frank starts with the pins, which is preferred by some due to marking the opposing piece in the grain, Tage Frid used to advocate that as the grain helps push the marking knife in tight against the pins, when marking the tails afterwards. In fact, Tage Frid was pretty vocal about marking on end grain to be "mickey mouse" in his dovetail video, when forced to mark the pins from the tails if you cut them first.

I'll say this...I prefer marking the tails first, especially for half blinds, but I have seem folks mark the tails from the pins in that case, and I find that ackward myself. I think pins first makes sense in some cases also. Good to practice and know both.

I use Rob Cosman's method (or Alan Peter's method, some may say;-) when laying out for an actualy project, using dividers and sliding bevel (or dovetail template).

A lot of different ways to cut dovetails. George Huron's Dovetail Video online (http://www.springharvestfww.com/images/dovetail.mpg) is a great resource, as is Phil Lowe's Dovetail Video (http://www.pem.org/luxury/dovetailing.html) also pretty helpful, IMO. I highly reccomend Tage Frid, Frank Klausz, and Rob Cosman's videos as well.

Not trying to steal your thread, just to offer some info that may help you in getting started to cut dovetails.

Another helpful technique for me has been to practice sawing a straight line for the full depth of your blade. I have a 4" deep small tenon saw that Mike Wenzloff made me, and I was doing this last weekend with it, the deeper the saw seems better to me to hone one's sawing technique. But then, what do I know, I'm not a professional (and I can gleefully tell you I'm darn glad of that!;-).

[John Miliunas]

Thanks for the additional info, Alan! I'm way, way too much a novice to have developed a preference for pins or tails first, so I guess it's just time to play with it and see which works the best. I've seen the Klausz video and am forever amazed at how fast the man can knock those things out. He goes from making his last chisel cuts straight to glue, w/o even bothering with a dry fit!!! :eek: :D :cool:

[Alan Turner]

I know I am weighing in on a weighty discussion. but will do so anyway. I don't file saws, but I do cut a few DT's.

Lief's point about carrying the weight of the saw in the hand till the cut is started is certainly my method. A light grip will help in this regard as well. All cuts start on the push stroke with a Western saw. At least to me.

But, when making a rip cut, as in DT's, I disagree with starting on the far side of the board. A rip saw is filed straight across, so each tooth is like a small chisel. Think of trying to pare a small amount from an end grain corner with a small chisel. If you pare downhill to the grain (i.e., starting on the face of the board and not on the endgrain), it is easier. If you start on the end grain, and try to cut up to the face, then it is more difficult.

To me it is the same with a rip saw. Start on the front corner and the cut will start easier, and there will be no tearout.

On a newly filed saw, the file leaves a bit of a ragged edge, which promotes a catch. It is the nature of filing metal. So, a freshly filed saw starts a bit tougher than one that has a few miles on it. I generally take a piece of very hard wood, a tropical if it is handy and scrap, and make a few cuts to clean up the ragged edges, and then it is fine. Just a few inches of cutting is all that it needs.

For DT saws I generally spec. a non agressive filing pattern as speed is of little importance in DT's. For drawers, if I take 3 strokes or 5 strokes, it does not matter.

Lief -- beautiful saw. Nice score John. How long is the blade? Looks like it might be 8", but I will still guess 10".

Today we were milling up some cherry for a countertop job, and needed to cut the end off of a 16" wide, 8/4 cherry plank. Lose a knot, so to speak. I could have gotten the CS out, but instead grabbed a hand saw, full sized, filed by Daryl Weir for crosscutting dry hardwoods. Don't know which was faster, but Mario did roll his eyes a bit. However, the cut did not take long. Using a well filed hand saw is one of life's little pleasures.

[Leif Hanson]

I won't disagree, Alan. I do find that practice is the best way to improve, along with a good knowledge of the tool being used. I try not to be dismissive of any method really - if somebody has a way that works them, then it's probably just fine to do it that way, whatever way it is - the key is in finding the method that works best for you...

Leif

[Alan DuBoff]

Thanks for the additional info, Alan! I'm way, way too much a novice to have developed a preference for pins or tails first, so I guess it's just time to play with it and see which works the best. I've seen the Klausz video and am forever amazed at how fast the man can knock those things out. He goes from making his last chisel cuts straight to glue, w/o even bothering with a dry fit!!! :eek: :D :cool:You shouldn't dry fit them, once you fit them the joint will not fit properly if you take it apart and put it back together again, in most cases. Cosman reccomends chamfering the bottom side of the tails, so that it allows for a clean joint, and I find that helps.

When I first got interested in dovetails, I used to cut one or two each night fairly regularly. I just used a lot of t&g scraps I had laying around, and I'm still finding dovetail joints laying around the garage, I am not sure how many I did. Some I pulled apart and cut them off and did a new one, some I saved, some I trashed...I certainly made my share of mistakes, broke my share of half pins, and split my share of tails. This is one skill that gets better as you do it.

AlanT, invest in a $5 file and take a stab at sharpening a saw, it's really not as hard as some think. If you use the saw, eventually it will need sharpening, just like a chisel or a plane. A saw is no different and requires regular sharpening, just like other tools.

I find that either the front edge or back edge works fine to start a saw cut for me, although it seems that not long ago Leif posted some pics of starting on the front of the board, and I had asked about that as Rob Cosman starts on the back of the board. I don't see much difference myself, but I see that Leif is showing the back of the board to start here.

The one thing I am fairly insistent upon is that I really feel you need a rip and a crosscut to be able to handle the cut at hand, wether it is with or against the grain.

I absolutely agree with Leif in regards to, "whatever works for you", and it is best to try each method or style of doing dovetails, to see what is right for one's own self. I have tried most styles and know what I like for myself.

[Alan Turner]

[QUOTE=Alan DuBoff]
AlanT, invest in a $5 file and take a stab at sharpening a saw, it's really not as hard as some think. If you use the saw, eventually it will need sharpening, just like a chisel or a plane. A saw is no different and requires regular sharpening, just like other tools.
--------------------------

AlanD,
I have the correct files, and have tried it. Problem is that when I first started getting pretty serious about hand saws, I sent out my saws to Tom Law, since retired from the business. Once you cut with a Tom Law filed saw, well, that is a different sort of experience. I used to send him a ton of saws, and so one day I called him, and asked if I could drive down to his place and watch him file saws that I would bring with me. The reason for the # of saws was that I would source saws for my students, and sell them to them sharpenend, at cost. Must have done this for 50 or 100 saws. Anyway, he said fine, and so I spent about 6 hours with him, and watched, and talked, and so on. Whhn I got home I gave it a shot, and mine were not as good as his by a long shot. As I said, I was spoiled.

Since Tom retired, I have found Daryl, who is actually as good. And, I have tried again to file several times. It is not that mine won't cut, but a really well filed saw as opposed to the ones I have filed are a different sort of thing. So, I send them out.

[George Sanders]

Very, very nice! I gotta get me one of these.

[Alan DuBoff]

AlanT,

Yes, I have a saw that Tom Law sharpened, it's sharp. I also have saws that I have sharpened, and somehow they're sharp also. What I have learned is that this is a skill that all woodworkers who use hand saws should acquire. You will find that it is not rocket science, and even if your teeth don't look as nice as Tom Law's did after you're done, you might be surprised to find they're sharp.

I have also heard that Daryl does a good job, as does Cooke, but I have no experience. I don't plan to send any saws out, but if I was I would send them to Mike Wenzloff most likely. I would send a blade to get retoothed, as that is often not as easy, but it's not the end of the world and one can reshape them by themself given some patience.

I would hope that sharpening handsaws would be something you would teach in your school, because it's a skill that quite honestly, I feel every woodworker should have much the same as being able to sharpen chisels or hand planes. I highly doubt you would send out your chisels to be sharpened, or your plane blades, so does it seem odd that you're willing to do that with handsaws? Food for thought.

[Alan Turner]

My reasoning, flawed as it is, is that my saws, even with my use, which is probably a bit more than normal, last several years, unles I hit a nail.

Mario and I were talking about that the other day, and wondering if there would be enough interest to fill a class. I was thinking of asking Tom Law if he would like to teach it. Do you think there would be enough interest?

[Alan DuBoff]

My reasoning, flawed as it is, is that my saws, even with my use, which is probably a bit more than normal, last several years, unles I hit a nail.

Mario and I were talking about that the other day, and wondering if there would be enough interest to fill a class. I was thinking of asking Tom Law if he would like to teach it. Do you think there would be enough interest?I believe that you go for several years before getting a saw sharpened, but I don't believe that saw shouldn't have been sharpened sooner.;-) Personally, I can notice even a small touchup in a lot of cases, it just "feels good" when you cut.

I absolutely think you would get interest. The surge in interest for western style saws is proof of that. The Japanese seemed to taken over the world for a while with disposable saws, that are quite good for the price. But there was nobody producing decent hand saws, and that's changing and people are buying them. Anyone buying a western style saw (yourself included;-) should know how to sharpen.

But any of the non-disposable Japanese saws sell for even more than the western counterparts, I find that interesting. The Japanese charge a definite premium on craftsmanship, yet are the best is mass manufacturing for that type of disposable saw. It's facinating...Henry Disston probably rolls over in his grave just pondering about that...

I would also like to see a nice kit that had a nice jointer, file handle, visual guides, set, mill file, proper saw files, marks-a-lot, etc... It's hard to get all of that stuff. If you offer a class, consider providing that, or offering such a kit at a reasonable price.

I like both Japanese and Western style saws, good tools should be appreciated alike. Maybe the disposable saws are good for many, but I prefer a handcrafted tool any day of the week.

Mike Wenzloff talked of a dozuki style saw he was crafting up, I'd be most curious as to what type of handle he would put on it. I suggested a handcrafted hardwood handle, unlike a mass produced bamboo one...;-) The key with the dozuki is being able to sharpen it yourself, IMO, which typically requires a more expensive handcrafted saw.

Even for folks that believe they don't use their saws enough to warrant learning the skill of sharpening them, I don't believe that. It's like a chisel or plane blade to me. Both Leif Hanson and Mike Wenzloff have offered folks a lot of help online, as does Pete Taran and Ralph Brendler's online info, Bob Smalser's info, and there was even an online video at FWW that ChrisG provided along with his recent article they published.

The trend certainly appears that this is an expanding realm within hand tool usage, and western style saws are in vogue again! ;)

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I'd be interested, but it'd have to be closer to me than Philly. :)