OK, help me choose a new lathe

[Matt Meiser]

I sold my Jet mini, or at least I will have sold it come Thursday, so, now I need to find a new lathe. I know that the first thing everyone will recommend is a Powermatic or Oneway, but I'm not looking in that class. I really can't/don't want to spend more than $4-500. I'm looking for a full size lathe that will be great for table legs and an occasional bowl/vase/etc. I plan to eventually build or buy a template setup for spindles and want the ability to do things like fluted turnings, so indexing capability would be nice, but I can always build a jig to do the indexing, so that's not really important. I realize that if I ever do decide to get serious into turning, that this lathe won't be my last, but I want to go to a full size lathe so that any fixturing would apply to a different lathe if that time comes, and I don't expect it to as I'm just not that interested in turnings (though I do enjoy looking at the stuff you guys and gals "turn" out.) I also already have 1"x8TPI chuck, so I'd like to find a lathe that will work with that. I've identified a few options:


A used Jet 1236 or the Harbor Freight clone. The HF is available 10 minutes from work and will likely be on sale for $179 in the near future given HF's history. I've read a lot of recommendations for this lathe and only a few negative comments. The 1236's come up for sale occasionally, but I'd just have to wait and see to find one.
An old-iron 12x36ish lathe. This would probably be ideal, but I don't want to get into a money pit, so I would need to buy from someone I trust (and deal with shipping) or find one close by. This would probably be the ideal choice, but the trick would be finding something. Plus I'm under the impression that I'd probably end up having to put a VFD on it to get more than a couple speeds which adds to the cost.
Grizzly G0462. I'd consider this a higher end lathe for what I'm looking for and it is fairly new so I didn't find to much on it. I did read some negative comments on the older Grizzly lathes but don't know how much they've changed on their newer ones.


I also found the cast iron bed Delta new for a pretty reasonable price close by, but it is over my price range and I read a lot of complaints about it so I took it off my list.

[Chris Barton]

Hi Matt,

This is always a tough question to deal with. My own perspective is that you should get as much lathe as you can afford, in fact more than you can afford would be beter. I personally would rather go into debt to get a great lathe that would satisfy a lifetime of turning than cycle through a few "make do's". My temptation in your case would be to either find a used Jet 1642, a new Jet 1642, or a Oneway 1224. They are all below 2K and would probably serve your needs forever. Used 1642 can be found but, they are rare. Maybe you could find a used PM3520a or DVR?

Good Luck

PS: I just realized that a Rikon with a bed extension would fit this bill as well...

[Frank Fusco]

My lathe is a Grizzly G1067Z. It has been quite satisfactory and for the price (about $400.00) the best value on the market at the time I bought it. There are a couple drawbacks, the non-standard 1"X12tpi spindle being the most annoying. But recently, Grizzly has introduced two new models with more power and superior features for about $100.00 LESS money. (and standard 1"X8tpi spindle) When I asked a salesman at the Springfield, Missouri store about this he said that the company had moved most of it's manufacturing from Taiwan to mainland China. In doing so, they are ablt to produce superior products for less money. From what I see of them, for $300.00 to $400.00 one can get a nearly equivalent machine to the ones costing thousands. And that isn't an exaggeration. A wise shopper would, at least, check them out. And at those prices, if you aren't happy, they could almost be discarded without taking food out of baby's mouth.

[Steve Ash]

An old-iron 12x36ish lathe. This would probably be ideal, but I don't want to get into a money pit, so I would need to buy from someone I trust (and deal with shipping) or find one close by. This would probably be the ideal choice, but the trick would be finding something. Plus I'm under the impression that I'd probably end up having to put a VFD on it to get more than a couple speeds which adds to the cost.You knew I was going to say it Matt.....Oliver. :D

You don't need a VFD to get variable speeds it has a reeves drive already built in. I go from slow to fast (1000-2400) in just a turn of the dial.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Hi Matt,

This is always a tough question to deal with. My own perspective is that you should get as much lathe as you can afford, in fact more than you can afford would be beter. I personally would rather go into debt to get a great lathe that would satisfy a lifetime of turning than cycle through a few "make do's". My temptation in your case would be to either find a used Jet 1642, a new Jet 1642, or a Oneway 1224. They are all below 2K and would probably serve your needs forever. Used 1642 can be found but, they are rare. Maybe you could find a used PM3520a or DVR?

Good Luck

PS: I just realized that a Rikon with a bed extension would fit this bill as well...

Chris gets my vote.

I think that if you don't raise your budget a little, you will be upgrading at some point.

My two yen's worth.

Cheers!

[tod evans]

matt, i`m with chris-n-stu....02 tod

[Steve Ash]

My two yen's worth.

Okay you have two yen and Tod has .02.....which is worth more? :)

[Bob Noles]

Matt,

If you go for the HF..... Here is a little incentive :)

http://ww2.harborfreightusa.com/showpage_retail.taf?pageid=202&email=

[Matt Meiser]

You knew I was going to say it Matt.....Oliver. :D

You don't need a VFD to get variable speeds it has a reeves drive already built in. I go from slow to fast (1000-2400) in just a turn of the dial.

You're going to make me call that guy, aren't you.

[Steve Ash]

You're going to make me call that guy, aren't you.

Just in case you forgot his number..:D

<TABLE cellPadding=5 width=400 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top>Post Date:</TD><TD vAlign=top>04/02/2006</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top>Category:</TD><TD vAlign=top>Lathes</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top>Machine Type:</TD><TD vAlign=top>Variable Speed lathe</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top>Model:</TD><TD vAlign=top>159MW</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top height=12>Serial No:</TD><TD vAlign=top></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top height=12>Capacities:</TD><TD vAlign=top></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top height=12>Dimensions:</TD><TD vAlign=top>H x L x W</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top height=12>Weight:</TD><TD vAlign=top></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top height=12>Motor:</TD><TD vAlign=top>HP PH V </TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top height=12>Accessories:</TD><TD vAlign=top></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top height=12>Location:</TD><TD vAlign=top>MI</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top>Comments:</TD><TD vAlign=top></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top height=12>Price:</TD><TD vAlign=top>$500 OBO</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top height=12>Phone No:</TD><TD vAlign=top>313-289-5593</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top height=12>Contact Name:</TD><TD vAlign=top>Paul Silfven</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Daniel Heine]

Hello,

I bought a brand new Palmgren lathe 3 weeks ago. Palmgren is the company that makes the Craftsman 15" lathe. I am very happy with it. Fetaures include:

1 X 8 headstock
#2 MT on both ends
15" capacity over the bed
20" outboard capacity
Variable speed
38" bed

It's $480.00 at Sears.

Good Luck,
Dan Heine

[Matt Meiser]

Guys, I hear you that I may end up upgrading again in the future, but for the forseeable future there is just no way I can justify spending $1-$2000 on a lathe because I'm just not going to use it that much. Not to mention what LOML will say :eek:

[Jim Davenport]

To bad you sold your Jet. in my personal view, A Rikon and later get the extension would fit your needs. It has a twelve inch swing, and seems to be very well made. I've had mine for a while now, and love it. When I bought mine I looked at the Harbor Freight model. I have a friend that's an assistant manager at the local store. He said that they have a lot of returns on that lathe. They have various parts broken, a lot of problems with the "variable Reeves drive". I'm sure there's a lot of HF lathes out there with no problems, but with my luck I'd get a bad one. HF quality is kinda a hit or miss thing. Do you feel lucky? HF is great on returns, but it's still a hassle.
My local Woodcraft store can't keep the Rikon's in stock, and only had a couple of returns.

[Brad Hart]

With the budget you have there are 3 new lathe choices. The HF 34706 is a great lathe just make sure you get the warranty especially since you live close to the store. The sears that was mentioned was something I had massive problems with and it took many nice but firm phone calls and personal visits to get it right and when that didn't work it took a very ugly temper tantrum from me to get a full refund. The other lathe that will fit your budget is the new grizzley 16 inch. I by no means would dare turn something that big on it, with the motor speed combo it has but it would give you a future plateform to easily upgrade with a bolt on VFD.

[Ed Labadie]

For the money your wanting to spend, go with the Oliver. A model 167 is another choice. Not cast iron but a nice lathe with variable speed. My 167 will fit close to 45" between centers.

Ed

[Don Orr]

You have already received much good advice from knowledgable people.

I will add my 2 cents and recommend a reasonable compromise for your budget. One of the best lathes available today for a good price and great quality is the Jet 1440. Standard spindle thread 1" x 8tpi, mechanical variable speed, indexable, swivel head, well built. The 2 clubs I belong to each have one of these and they are very nice machines. Currently priced about $900-$1000, but not $2k at least. May be able to find a used one easier than a Jet 1642 (which I have and love).

Now you have several cents and a few yen-you're part way there;) :D .
Good luck and let us know what you come up with.
(I also think the new mini Rikon with bed extension might do what you want quite well).

Don

[Bart Leetch]

So whats the hurry???? Why not wait & save a few more dollars & be able to purchase a bigger better lathe its not like you making you living with this lathe is it. Or are you?

I pay cash for most all my tools & save to do so. That way it doesn't impact the budget at all.

It doesn't sound like your all that interested in turning anyway.

Sorry if I sound blunt I don't mean to.:D

[Chris Billman]

Remember to talk to me on Thurs night. If you really think you want a 1236 I probably could be convinced to sell mine to kick-start an upgrade. You might want to stop over and try it out to make sure it meets you needs though. Check out your other options in the meantime to make sure it's what you want.....

[Matt Meiser]

So whats the hurry???? Why not wait & save a few more dollars & be able to purchase a bigger better lathe its not like you making you living with this lathe is it. Or are you?

No, its just for a hobby. But there are other things I could save the extra $500-1500 for.


I pay cash for most all my tools & save to do so. That way it doesn't impact the budget at all.

I generally try to do the same, althought I've bought a few things with one local store's 12 months SAC credit card and just budgeted to pay 1/12th the balance every month. They are actually the ones with the Delta iron bed lathe.


It doesn't sound like your all that interested in turning anyway.

Not really, just something I'd like to have the ability do. Really, I would put being able to turn and duplicate table legs as a higher priority than turning bowls/platters/vases/etc. And, all the duplicator attachements I've seen need at least a 12" swing lathe (other than one specifically for the midi's, but it was for a standard-lenght bed, not the extension bed.) I would like to be able to do an occasional bowl though.


Sorry if I sound blunt I don't mean to.:D

Hope I'm not coming across that way either. Just hoping for some insight on finding the right tool for me.

The main reasons I decided to sell the mini are that I wanted to be able to build or buy the duplicator, and that I didn't want to invest in accessories (like a bigger toolrest) that would only apply to the mini.

And if I decide I want to turn a big bowl, I can go visit Chris when he gets a bigger lathe. :D

[Steve Ash]

And if I decide I want to turn a big bowl, I can go visit Chris when he gets a bigger lathe. :D

Or if Chris doesn't get a bigger lathe just drive on up the road a bit further and use mine....then you'll be calling that number I gave you. :D

[Matt Meiser]

OK, discussion is over. I'll be posting why in just a minute. A hint: Ebay.

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi Matt

For what you want to spend, the best lathe for you is already in your possession. Add a bed extension and you will be able to spin just about any furniture component you can think of, and bowls up to 10" are possible as well. I do not think you are going to see a corresponding jump in quality with a larger lathe in this price category. I had a Jet 1236 and it is a good machine, but not that much better than what you already have. The Rikon is an unknown quantity for now, until it gets some more usage. The HF lathes are a bad bargain all around, and I am sorry if that offends some people, but that does not make it less true. I do not think much more of the Grizzly lathes, at least at this point. I can see they are upgrading the quality of some of their machines, but it has not yet reached lathe land.

With the exception of the Vicmarc, the Jet mini is the best built mini lathe on the market right now, and as you describe your turning plans, it seems to me that you could take the money you have planned for a new purchase and put it toward the things that you would need to expand its capabilites to what you want.

Good luck with it.

Bill

[Steven Wilson]

I have to agree with Bill on this one. I would much prefer to turn on a Jet Mini or Vicmarc VL100 mini lathe with bed extensions than the larger Jet, HF, or Grizzly lathes. The 3520 is really the start of the better larger lathes. You might also look at a Vicmarc VL175 (http://www.1goodturn.net/VL175.htm), I'm not sure of the price but the lathe will be a good value.

[Matt Meiser]

Here's the link to why: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=36521

[Frank Fusco]

Hi Matt

For what you want to spend, the best lathe for you is already in your possession. Add a bed extension and you will be able to spin just about any furniture component you can think of, and bowls up to 10" are possible as well. I do not think you are going to see a corresponding jump in quality with a larger lathe in this price category. I had a Jet 1236 and it is a good machine, but not that much better than what you already have. The Rikon is an unknown quantity for now, until it gets some more usage. The HF lathes are a bad bargain all around, and I am sorry if that offends some people, but that does not make it less true. I do not think much more of the Grizzly lathes, at least at this point. I can see they are upgrading the quality of some of their machines, but it has not yet reached lathe land.

With the exception of the Vicmarc, the Jet mini is the best built mini lathe on the market right now, and as you describe your turning plans, it seems to me that you could take the money you have planned for a new purchase and put it toward the things that you would need to expand its capabilites to what you want.

Good luck with it.

Bill


Bill, you said, "I do not think much more of the Grizzly lathes, at least at this point. I can see they are upgrading the quality of some of their machines, but it has not yet reached lathe land."
Would you please give specifics for that comment? I find there seems to be a large 'anti-Grizzly' crowd out there. For what reason, I don't know. Maybe it's the Chinese thing and I can't argue that except to say even many so-called 'American' brands are really made in China too.
Some folks compare $400.00 machines to ones costing thousands more. That's unfair. But, I'll compare them and say a $400.00 Grizzly is 80% the machine a Oneway is.
Thanks.

[Bill Grumbine]

Bill, you said, "I do not think much more of the Grizzly lathes, at least at this point. I can see they are upgrading the quality of some of their machines, but it has not yet reached lathe land."
Would you please give specifics for that comment? I find there seems to be a large 'anti-Grizzly' crowd out there. For what reason, I don't know. Maybe it's the Chinese thing and I can't argue that except to say even many so-called 'American' brands are really made in China too.
Some folks compare $400.00 machines to ones costing thousands more. That's unfair. But, I'll compare them and say a $400.00 Grizzly is 80% the machine a Oneway is.
Thanks.

Frank, I have written a couple of replies, but neither of them really seem to fit. Look for a PM from me.

Bill

[Stephen Hibbs]

I have the HF clone and I'm pretty satisfied. The thing for tightening the nut on the toolrest stripped fast, so that's really annoying, but otherwise it seems like it'll fit your needs. It matches up to the delta 14" lathe at school and has a nicer variable speed control.

[Brad Hart]

Hi Matt

The HF lathes are a bad bargain all around, and I am sorry if that offends some people, but that does not make it less true.
Bill

I have to toatally disagree with your Bill. Value all depends on your circumstances and what you plan to do with it. I would consider mine a GREAT value, 5 years ago I bought mine for less than $150 on sale. I have averaged 25 to 30 hours a week on it every week since I got it, (and it put up with a lot of abuse early on) that is over 6000 hours on the main parts and almost 4k on the original motor before I relaced it with a VFD. Granted I have had to take care of it and now have to replace the bearings, and either refix the crack in the headstock I got in year 2 or simply buy another one, but dollar for dollar it has been a great value, and in my opinion one of the best values for a new lathe for someone who simply wants to piddle around in turning. With all of its original parts my total cost was less than $0.04 an hour.

When I got into this I had no great ambitions as a turner and certainly not one who makes a fair amount of money at it, I was a plain and simple hobbiest with a burning desire to turn and a total budget of $520 for lathe, chuck, grinder, and tools (a years worth of play money for me at the time). Sure I could have spent more on the lathe but a fat lot of good it would have done me with no tools, no grinder or chuck. The next step up a jet 1236 if I could have afforded it would have been more than double my opperating costs and the 1442 would have set me back another 18 to 24 months of savings and still be more than 6 times my operating cost.

[Andy Hoyt]

I for one would really like to see what $0.04 per hour looks like.

[Brad Hart]

It looks like everyone elses HF 34706, with the exception it now has a big honkin treadmill motor hanging off one side that will take it down as low as 25 rpm's. It isn't pretty, but it works.

[Bill Grumbine]

I have to toatally disagree with your Bill.

Fine by me Brad. You are not the first person to disagree with me on something, and probably won't be the last. Matt asked for opinions, and I gave mine. I still think so, even after reading your post. You made a decision based on certain factors, and I expressed my opinion based on my own experience looking this lathe over, plus that of numerous students who have come through my shop. Perhaps your opinion is more accurate than mine, but I base mine on the quality of work the machine will do compared to the effort involved in getting that quality. I did not start out with the lathes that I have now. I started out with a $99.00 Chinese machine, and worked my way up from there, so I know a little bit about various lathes on the market.

I got rid of that cheap Chinese lathe and bought a Jet 1236. At the time it was the most expensive woodworking machine I had ever purchased. I did not have a chuck or a sharpening jig for quite some time. I only had a few tools and I made do with them. I have lots of tools now, but the funny thing is, I use less tools now than I did then, even less than the ones I first started out with.

We all make decisions based on our circumstances. When I bought my Jet I had even less money than you describe, and no play money at all. We were a young family with a new business and I had to hustle several hundred dollars profit a month just to keep afloat right out of the gate. That is not as easy as it sounds. I do not mind your disagreeing with me, and I hope you do not mind my disagreeing with you. While I am sure you have had a good experience, it is not my experience, and therefore not my opinion.

Bill

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Brad and Bill, nice to see both of you sharing your opinions and thoughts on the subject, and I'd be really surprised if we did not all disagree at some point on things. :D

I'm moving up from the C-man lathe to the DVR 3000 and I know it will be money well spent in the long run, for me, in my situation. I sold one toy, a bike, to buy another, and along the way, I've pleased by wife as well. :eek:

Here in Japan, the selection of lathes is way thin, compared to the US. I know that if for some bizzare reason I were to give up turning (gasp!) I could easily sell the DVR 3000 for more money than I'll pay for it, so it makes good sense to me.

I can get that HF/Grizzly/???? lathe here in Japan as well, it is fairly cheap compared to the DVR, and I know, that if anyone could rig it to work better I could, but in the end, my biggest constraint is not money, but time, I have only about 18 hours a day to get it all done, (on a short day) and I did not want to have to spend countless hours working on the lathe, I wanted to TURN on the lathe.

I'm a big time proponent of making it yourself, but with a few qualifiers, like if it is way cheaper, you can't just "Buy" it, or if you want to, and I think that Brad, in massaging you HF lathe, you hit on at least a few of those points, if not all of them, and I also notice that you have upgraded your lathe, and not left it stock, you obviously have the skills and drive to do so, but lots of guys do not, thus a lathe with limits, like the fairly fast slowest speed, may not be the best choice for those guys.

I very much repsect both of your opinions, and the abilitly to agree to disagree.

BTW, I'd love to see some better pics of your set up Brand, any chance of that?

Cheers!

[Brad Hart]

BTW, I'd love to see some better pics of your set up Brad, any chance of that?

Cheers!

I actually took a bunch more last night but the flash killed them. I am going to be back out today taking more. Of course over the years the biggest upgrades to the lathe are the same ones you have to make with expensive lathes, like adding a OneWay center and some better tools.

The biggest reason I went with an upgrade motor instead of a next step lathe was the lathe I had worked fine and I knew the next lathe I bought would also be able to be upgraded with the same motor. I will probably keep upgrading one step at a time letting each lathe pay for the next, hopefully in 3 or 4 years I will have this motor setting under a vic vl300.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

............hopefully in 3 or 4 years I will have this motor setting under a vic vl300............

I just about bought one of those, they are $5500 here in Japan, but the importer had a demo showroom unit on for $3850, but that was just too far out of my budget, sure would have been nice.

If I ever outgrow the DVR 3K, that lathe will be on my short list.

Cheers!

[Brad Hart]

I just about bought one of those, they are $5500 here in Japan, but the importer had a demo showroom unit on for $3850, but that was just too far out of my budget, sure would have been nice.

If I ever outgrow the DVR 3K, that lathe will be on my short list.

Cheers!

Since I already have the variable speed drive and controller, I have thought about getting the motorless 51" variety for $2100. My motor combo won't have quite the power but it will certainly be a lot cheaper, which is a tradeoff I can willingly make for that price.

[Chris Barton]

I am going to post one additional reply to this in hopes that other new lathe purchasers happen to read this. In woodworking there are many times where you can make do with cheap tools and not notice a big difference. Lathe work is not one of those situations. You can make great pieces with just about any serviceable lathe but, that is where it ends. The quality of the lathe largely determines if you stay with the activity because you enjoy it or if you drop turning because the experience is aversive. Also, at least in my experience, it would have been less expensive for me to buy the best lathe available when I started rather than work up through a variety of machines before I settled on my PM3520a and my VS Jet Mini. I think it also delayed my development as a turner. So, that's why I made my original suggestion.

[tod evans]

I am going to post one additional reply to this in hopes that other new lathe purchasers happen to read this. In woodworking there are many times where you can make do with cheap tools and not notice a big difference. Lathe work is not one of those situations. You can make great pieces with just about any serviceable lathe but, that is where it ends. The quality of the lathe largely determines if you stay with the activity because you enjoy it or if you drop turning because the experience is aversive. Also, at least in my experience, it would have been less expensive for me to buy the best lathe available when I started rather than work up through a variety of machines before I settled on my PM3520a and my VS Jet Mini. I think it also delayed my development as a turner. So, that's why I made my original suggestion.

very sound advice chris! .02 tod

[Andy Hoyt]

When Doc Barton speaks - we listen.

[Brad Hart]

Also, at least in my experience, it would have been less expensive for me to buy the best lathe available when I started rather than work up through a variety of machines before I settled on my PM3520a and my VS Jet Mini. I think it also delayed my development as a turner. So, that's why I made my original suggestion.


Of course this all comes back to the budget you have to work with at the begining. It is always easy to say if I bought machine "x" first it I would have saved money, but honestly that is one of the most economicly naieve comments people can make. Sure I can say, "17 years ago if I would have paid cash for a mercedes 500sel instead of $400 for a late model ford pinto as my first car, it would have been less expensive than the combined price of every car I have bought since and it would still be driveable." While the numbers might make it a true statement the economic facts also make it an impossibility. The same thing can be said for most people who get into turning and their first lathe. It is all well and good to say get a $2000 but the fact less than 1 in 10 americans have more than $1000 in savings and if you are about to say put it on your credit card then your entire argument of cheaper goes out the window as every grand financed on credit cards cost an average of 6k to payback. this isn't to say you shouldn't buy a great big bad monster lathe if you can afford it, by all means if you have a few grand in cash in which to start a new hobby then buy a big expensive lathe, but the fact is most of us don't have that kind of money to throw into a new hobby and are forced to look at the economic realities of what we have to work with.

[Frank Fusco]

I am going to post one additional reply to this in hopes that other new lathe purchasers happen to read this. In woodworking there are many times where you can make do with cheap tools and not notice a big difference. Lathe work is not one of those situations. You can make great pieces with just about any serviceable lathe but, that is where it ends. The quality of the lathe largely determines if you stay with the activity because you enjoy it or if you drop turning because the experience is aversive. Also, at least in my experience, it would have been less expensive for me to buy the best lathe available when I started rather than work up through a variety of machines before I settled on my PM3520a and my VS Jet Mini. I think it also delayed my development as a turner. So, that's why I made my original suggestion.

Chris, I'm afraid I irritated another member here by asking for specific statements why a $4000.00 lathe is better than a $400.00 one. That is yet to be addressed. I'll use your own words to illustrate my puzzlement.
<<"you can make do with cheap tools and not notice a big difference.">>
If you don't notice (big) difference (you didn't say if in working or finished product), why bother with the extra three or four thousand dollars?
<<"You can make great pieces with just about any serviceable lathe">>
I repeat the question, if that is the case, why bother spending an extra three or four thousand dollars?
You say that is where it ends. Of course, a "great piece" is when you turn off the machine and start bragging. What begins after that for your extra three or four thousand dollars? I don't understand. And, I believe I am irritating some eltists. Like telling the owner of a $10,000.00 Rolex watch that my $30.00 Casio keeps just as good time as his, is just as shock and water resistant, which it is.

[Brad Hart]

Chris, I'm afraid I irritated another member here by asking for specific statements why a $4000.00 lathe is better than a $400.00 one. ... I believe I am irritating some eltists. Like telling the owner of a $10,000.00 Rolex watch that my $30.00 Casio keeps just as good time as his, is just as shock and water resistant, which it is.


The difference betwen a $400 and $4000 lathe is pretty great depending on how you use it. There will be no difference in how well you can turn a pen or bottle stopper between a OneWay 2436 and a PSI turncrafter pro, there might not even be that much difference in how well they turn a 6 or 7" bowl or a box. However when compared with a hf 34706, jet 1236, 14 or 16" griz lathes there is a considderable diffeence when you turn larger pieces, a lot of it comes down to safety, durability, down right pleasure factors, as well as options like built in indexing, reversible motors complete variable speeds, and bigger available sizes. But this all comes back to how do you use it. If you are going to turn great big things a very expensive lathe has advantages that make the price worth it. If all you are going to turn on it is small things where the differences won't be noticed if they exist at all the only big reason to an expensive lathe is bragging rights. Personally I think people whospend $1000 on 10 or 12" OneWays are out of their minds.

It is not that all the people who balk at the idea of inexpensive lathes are elitists, some are, some like Bill Grumbine definately are not. Those that aren't tend to look at the world from a very different financial stand point with very different priorities. A lot of them look back at several years, with plenty of turning experience and say if I had known this I would have done this, but in most cases of people I know who say this I remeber when they started and know for a fact that many of them even had they known never could have afforded to do the things they are now advocating for everyone else.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Frank, if you don't mind, I'll take a stab at answering this question.

I don't know about your premise, that a $400 lathe vs a $4000 stands up, as the $400 lathe is quite a bit better than the HF $179 lathe, that was suggested, but lets press on.

I'll pick two lathes.

http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg288/g/g0462.jpg
The Grizzly G0584, lists for $385.

Specs
Motor: 2 HP, 110V, single-phase
Swing over bed: 16"
Distance between centers: 43"
Heavy-duty, precision ground cast iron bed and cast iron legs
1" x 8 TPI RH headstock spindle
Spindle tachometer with digital read outMT
MT#2 spindle & tailstock taper
Spindle bore: 3/8"
Outboard turning is easy with standard tool rest extension
10 speeds: 600 - 240RPM
Quick lock/release levers for tailstock and headstock
0 deg., 60 deg., 90 deg., 120 deg., and 180 deg. headstock rotation
Overall dimension: 76 1/2"L x 19"W x 48 3/8" HNow I think for a first lathe this would not be a bad choice, except for a couple things. 600 rpm for the slowest speed is WAY to fast, IMHO, I have the old C-man lathe, and the slowest speed is about 450 rpm, and on a 9" bowl, this is a little fast for me, I cannot imaging trying to turn a 12" or 16" bowl at this speed :eek:
I've also heard a lot of people break the tool rest on this machine, that would really wreak the weekend! :D

OK on to my $4000 choice

http://www.islandwoodcraft.ca/cart/images/vicmarv%20vl300lb.jpg
The Vicmarc VL-300 Long bed machine.

Specs

VL300EVCM - Vicmarc VL300 Long Bed Electronic Variable Speed Cabinet Mounted Lathe.

The VL300 Series Electronic Variable Speed Lathe has been designed to suit most professional wood turners. The electronic variable speed drive gives 150% torque on low rpm and the 1.5kw motor is adequate for this size lathe. The two step pulleys provide ratios 1: 1 for small to medium size work and 1: 3 for large work.

The cast iron lathe is mounted on a 3/16" thick steel plate stand which has been designed with a wide footprint for stability and rigidity. The stand also features storage space, wood shaving discharge chute and emergency knee bar stop.

Centre Height 12"
Swing over Bed 24"
Distance between Centres Long 50"
Indexing 24 Holes
Spindle Thread 1 1/4"-8TPI
Headstock Bored No. 2MT
Tailstock Bored No. 2MT
Spindle Bearing Tapered Roller
Electronic Variable Speed with Digital rpm indicator Infinitely Variable 30 -3000 rpm
Thru headstock Spindle 5/8"
Thru Tailstock spindle 3/8"

Motor 1500 watts
Forward & Reverse Switch Yes
Emergency Knee-Bar Stop Yes
Wide Footprint 28"
Hollow Ballast Two sides
Net Weight 660 lbs
Standard Accessories Accessories:
1 x Faceplate 6"
1 x Spur Drive
1 x Live Centre Cup
1 x Knockout Bar
1 x Tool rest 12"
1 x Spanner




Now I've seen the Vicmarc VL-300 up close and personal, and this lathe costs very close to your $4000 mark.

Let's look at this from several points of view.

Resale:

Stuff gets sold/passed on at some time or another, this is for sure, as we all do die.

The resale for the VL-300 will be very high, as it is always going to be in demand by turners, the Grizzly lathe, well you won't get much for it.

Ease of Use:

OK here is a major point, IMHO, if you spend a few hours a week on a lathe, the ease of use point is not going to be much of a big deal, as you can get by with crappy controls for only a few hours a week.
If you are a pro, and turn 8 hours a day, the Grizzly would have you pulling out your hair is a few days. Things have to work smoothly, and with out a second thought, or you waste time, if you are a pro, time wasted means money not earned. BTW, if you only turn a few hours a week, then having a $4000 lathe would be pure luxury!! (ICapaCapacity


vepaCapacity

I've not used the Grizzly lathe, but I very seriously doubt that you could take a 14" bowl blank and smoothly turn it, rough it out etc, I would think there would be a considerable amount of flex in the whole unit. The VL-300 would handle much bigger bowls without even breaking a sweat.

Durability:

Again, if you are turning a few hours a week, the Grizzly would hold up for a fairly long time (until the warranty is up, they are betting) but if you were turning on it full time, you would wear it out.

You would be hard pressed to wear out a VL-300.

My Conclusion:

Basically it boils down to how you are going to use the lathe, if you are a part-timer and do a bit here or there, then I'd say the $4000 lathe would be overkill, but if you are a pro, then the $4000 lathe makes you money, and the $400 lathe costs you money in downtime, loss of productivity etc. plus the frustration factor in dealing with a tool that is not up to your needs.

Speaking of Need, if I need a good tools because I use it to make money on my job, then there is no question, in my mind, that it is money well spent.

Now if I "Want" a $4000 lathe, and I can afford it, and I only use it a few hours a month, well, all bets are off :D

Does the comparison betweent the two lathes stack up?

I really think if you compared a less than $200 lathe with an $800 lathe, the value of the more expensive machine would come through much better.

Cheers!

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

One thing that Brad said about people spending big bucks on their lathes and being out of their minds.

Well, I sell wine for a living, I have $5000 bottles of wine, and I have customers come in and buy several $700 and $800 bottles of wine, like you or I would pick up a nice $12 bottle of Chardonnay :rolleyes:

One guy buys a lot of wine, I asked him why? Well he is a big-time corporate lawyer, and he has some high-flying customers to dinner, and he is not going to give them a $12 bottle of Chardonnay is he? The wine for him is a business tool, he needs to spend that kind of money on the type of client he has.

Just some more thoughts, we all see things in different ways!

Cheers!

[Bill Grumbine]

Chris, I'm afraid I irritated another member here by asking for specific statements why a $4000.00 lathe is better than a $400.00 one. That is yet to be addressed. ... And, I believe I am irritating some eltists. Like telling the owner of a $10,000.00 Rolex watch that my $30.00 Casio keeps just as good time as his, is just as shock and water resistant, which it is.

Frank, I was not irritated, but I did take it off line to be a little more succinct in my points. I am still waiting for some answers from you come to think of it. I guess if you have never seen one or used one, it would be hard to understand why a $4000 lathe is better than a $400 lathe. I have done both, using both types for years.

Here are the differences:

1. Weight. The weight engineered into the more expensive machine is just that - engineered into it. While piling sandbags on helps, it is not nearly as effective as a machine that is built of substantially heavier components. My $4000 machines do not chase me around the shop like my $400 machine did even after it was sandbagged with an extra 360 lbs of weight.

2. Power. The difference in power between a 10 amp single phase motor and a 20 amp 3 phase motor has to be seen to be believed. Instead of light cuts and stalling the motor, large quantites of wood can be removed literally in seconds. I can take a 60-80 lb blank of wood and turn it into a rough bowl for drying in less than 10 minutes on my Poolewood or Vega. I don't think you are going to even spin a blank that big on a $400 machine unless you have modified it substantially, and even then you are going to run the risk of breaking things. I know. I've done it. My Jet pivot head machine advertised an outboard turning capacity of 16" x 5". That might be true in theory, but not in practice. It just isn't going to swing a piece of wood that big.

3. Control. A $4000 machine these days sports a a 3 phase VFD power source. While this type of motor is not necessary for the vast majority of spindle turning, these machines are not built primarily for spindles. They are built for bowls, hollow forms, and other artsy pieces that require fine tuning the speed control. They open a whole range of possibilities that just aren't safe to do on a $400 machine unless you modify it as Brad has done with his HF machine.

4. Overall design. Fit and finish are much better. I do not have to fight my machine, and my turning improved by an order of magnitude each time I moved up a step in machine. I can get a fair curve in very little time on my more expensive machine, and it is not just because I am a better turner than I used to be. I turn on enough less expensive lathes on a regular basis to know that. Just last Saturday I spent the day turning on a lathe that shook like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang all day long. I was exhausted from the experience, but when you are standing in front of 30 people who have paid to see you turn, you don't complain about the lathe.

To go back to my own $400 lathe on this, I turned on it for over 3 1/2 years, and made many thousands of dollars using it. I also had a small backup lathe (Chinese built Carbatec). One of the reasons I had it was because my $400 Jet broke on a regular basis. At one point during a parts order, I was discussing everything that had broken on it, and he commented that I had had just about everything that could go wrong with this lathe go wrong. But, it was not a lemon. It was a $400 lathe. In contrast, my Poolewood is coming up on seven years old. In other words, I have been using it for twice as long as my old Jet. I have had exactly two things break on it. One was a plastic locking knob which has since been replaced with an all metal one, and one was the speed control potentiometer, which I replaced with an industrially rated one for $12.58. In addition to myself, literally hundreds of people, virtually all of them inexperienced to some degree, have used this lathe under my supervision, so it is not like it is being babied. It is better built. Period.

5. Speed. This is sort of a culmination of all of the above, but I can turn many times faster for the type of turning I am doing on my expensive lathes. That increase in production and the luxury of using the lathe allow me to be more creative because my attention is not being diverted by the lathe.

6. As an addendum to all the above, I teach, and people come from all over the US and Canada to learn from me. They are not paying airfare, hotel, and rental car rates along with tuition to come from places like TX, WA, FL, etc and turn on an entry level lathe. I have never ever cast aspersions on another person's choice of lathe, although I will tell people why I do or do not like a particular machine, especially before they buy. But people have the freedom to buy what they want, and it does not impact me one whit if they ignore my advice. But, if I am going to have an opinion I am going to express it. As I wrote to Brad, he has an opinion that is different than mine, and I have no problem with that. He is even better informed about the machine he has than I am (I wrote that too) and apparently he is making it work very well for him, but that does not change my opinion. I want to see lots of people having good experience with a machine before I change my opinion about it.

Finally, if you are going to label me an elitist, you are going to have to look long and hard for the evidence of that accusation, and you aren't going to find any. Even people who don't like me, and there are more than a few, would have trouble with that label being affixed to me. I have been called a lot of things, and some of them are even true, but this one is way off the mark. The truth of the matter is, this is not a discussion about elitism in lathes or anything else. If I were an elitist, why would I have written Matt telling him that his Jet mini lathe that he already owned was his best choice? Hmmmmmm??? The truth is, you are angry because I said that I did not like Grizzly lathes, and you lumped me into the anti-Grizzly crowd. I explained that in my PM to you, but I guess you missed the part where I praised their large bandsaws that I have used. I took this off line to keep it private, but you seem to want to air it. I think that is unfortunate, and I am looking forward to your response to my private message. I hope that I have explained myself clearly enough here for you to understand regarding the differences between cheap and expensive machines. The good news is, you don't even have to spend $4000 to get a lot of these features. You will find them on lathes starting at less than $2000. Quite a bargain, eh?

Bill

[Bill Grumbine]

But this all comes back to how do you use it. If you are going to turn great big things a very expensive lathe has advantages that make the price worth it. If all you are going to turn on it is small things where the differences won't be noticed if they exist at all the only big reason to an expensive lathe is bragging rights. Personally I think people whospend $1000 on 10 or 12" OneWays are out of their minds.

This is a great point Brad, and reflects my way of thinking completely. I have some acquaintances who live for turning small stuff, and one does not need a big honking lathes to do pens. In fact, I cannot turn a pen as fast on my Poolewood as I could on my Jet.


...but in most cases of people I know who say this I remeber when they started and know for a fact that many of them even had they known never could have afforded to do the things they are now advocating for everyone else.

Again, a great point. "Buy the best and only cry once" sends me into orbit. People, including myself, usually buy what they can afford. That is why it took me seven lathes to get to my Poolewood. I bought one, paid for it, made some money, and traded up. Then I did it all over again. When I started my business, it was tough enough to afford $400, much less $4000! But things change, and when I could afford to move up, I did. I know a couple of people who started out literally at the top of the pile, with lathes like the Oneway 2436 and the Poolewood, and their turnings don't look any better than if they had started with a Jet mini. That will hopefully change for them, but until it does, it is wasted machine. But, in both cases, those people had the money and the desire, or as us elitists say, both the itch and the scratch. :D ;)

Bill

[Frank Fusco]

Good response and I appreciate it, Stu.
I didn't know the high priced flavor went down to r-e-a-l slow speeds. My G1067Z slowest is 500 rpm and before I weighted with sandbags, big irregular hunks would cause shaking.
Size of what can be turned is a consideration. Some of the newer Griz models have a cut-out for bigger diameters than my 14". Length? I suspect few ever need 40" much less 50"+ but if you want it more dollars will get it.
Massivness is always a good thing in tools, I'll grant that. My sandbags make up a lot of that difference though.
Investment is another factor and not something I thought about when I bought mine. Useability and budget were. I could always invest the other $3500.00 somewhere else. :) A lot of the features and accessories you mention came standard with my G1067Z. I don't have reverse.
I have never heard of tool rests breaking, they are 1" and pretty stout. I get custom rests made at the local welder for about $10.00 each.
OK, I'll relent some. Maybe my $400.00 unit isn't 80% of the $4000.00 jobbie. I'll knock that down to about 70-75%. ;) As for durability, my friends headstock/motor/spindle all in one unit has been back for fix-it a couple times with months of delay waiting for it to come back. And the costs of repair would buy a couple of mine. I'm not impressed with that 'quality'. If the Grizzly only lasts ten years with hard use, one would have to turn steadily for a century to recoup the cost of the 'rolex'. The 'repairs' on mine involve changing the drive belt about every two years. That's a fifteen minute job, at home, an costs $5 to $10.
We have had demo turners who refuse to even try using the Grizzly. There is some real elitism involved, IMHO. One did once. And after figuring out the controls were not located where his are on his, he did a fine job and great demo and quit cussin' the Griz.
Maybe I would have to try the high priced variety to understand the difference.
The pro might want the expensive unit. His business. Average guy will get very excellent value and many years enjoyment from his $300-$400 Grizzly.
p.s. I agree about the Harbor Freight (Fright?) lathe. There is really el cheap stuff out there.

[Brad Hart]

One thing that Brad said about people spending big bucks on their lathes and being out of their minds.

Cheers!

It isn't that people are out of their minds for spending big bucks on lathes, it is them spending huge bucks on lathes that only turn max 10 or 12" pieces. Pop quiz which is a better deal jet 1642 or OneWay 1018 when they are the same price?

[Bill Grumbine]

Outboard turning is easy with standard tool rest extension


Stu, I would like to add to this one seemingly minor point here. Outboard turning with this type of tool rest extension is doomed to failure. Anything less than a post going all the way to the floor is going to have plenty of flex in it. I had the Nova outboard rest, which is the beefiest one I have ever seen short of my Poolewood, and it flexed. In fact, my Poolewood has a 3" square steel tube, and if I do not put the foot down to the floor, it flexes! I have broken these things and seen many more broken besides. It is a wonder anyone can even use them, and I do wonder if anyone actually does, regardless of the price of the lathe!

Bill

[Frank Fusco]

Frank, I was not irritated, but I did take it off line to be a little more succinct in my points. I am still waiting for some answers from you come to think of it. I guess if you have never seen one or used one, it would be hard to understand why a $4000 lathe is better than a $400 lathe. I have done both, using both types for years.

Here are the differences:

1. Weight. The weight engineered into the more expensive machine is just that - engineered into it. While piling sandbags on helps, it is not nearly as effective as a machine that is built of substantially heavier components. My $4000 machines do not chase me around the shop like my $400 machine did even after it was sandbagged with an extra 360 lbs of weight.

2. Power. The difference in power between a 10 amp single phase motor and a 20 amp 3 phase motor has to be seen to be believed. Instead of light cuts and stalling the motor, large quantites of wood can be removed literally in seconds. I can take a 60-80 lb blank of wood and turn it into a rough bowl for drying in less than 10 minutes on my Poolewood or Vega. I don't think you are going to even spin a blank that big on a $400 machine unless you have modified it substantially, and even then you are going to run the risk of breaking things. I know. I've done it. My Jet pivot head machine advertised an outboard turning capacity of 16" x 5". That might be true in theory, but not in practice. It just isn't going to swing a piece of wood that big.

3. Control. A $4000 machine these days sports a a 3 phase VFD power source. While this type of motor is not necessary for the vast majority of spindle turning, these machines are not built primarily for spindles. They are built for bowls, hollow forms, and other artsy pieces that require fine tuning the speed control. They open a whole range of possibilities that just aren't safe to do on a $400 machine unless you modify it as Brad has done with his HF machine.

4. Overall design. Fit and finish are much better. I do not have to fight my machine, and my turning improved by an order of magnitude each time I moved up a step in machine. I can get a fair curve in very little time on my more expensive machine, and it is not just because I am a better turner than I used to be. I turn on enough less expensive lathes on a regular basis to know that. Just last Saturday I spent the day turning on a lathe that shook like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang all day long. I was exhausted from the experience, but when you are standing in front of 30 people who have paid to see you turn, you don't complain about the lathe.

To go back to my own $400 lathe on this, I turned on it for over 3 1/2 years, and made many thousands of dollars using it. I also had a small backup lathe (Chinese built Carbatec). One of the reasons I had it was because my $400 Jet broke on a regular basis. At one point during a parts order, I was discussing everything that had broken on it, and he commented that I had had just about everything that could go wrong with this lathe go wrong. But, it was not a lemon. It was a $400 lathe. In contrast, my Poolewood is coming up on seven years old. In other words, I have been using it for twice as long as my old Jet. I have had exactly two things break on it. One was a plastic locking knob which has since been replaced with an all metal one, and one was the speed control potentiometer, which I replaced with an industrially rated one for $12.58. In addition to myself, literally hundreds of people, virtually all of them inexperienced to some degree, have used this lathe under my supervision, so it is not like it is being babied. It is better built. Period.

5. Speed. This is sort of a culmination of all of the above, but I can turn many times faster for the type of turning I am doing on my expensive lathes. That increase in production and the luxury of using the lathe allow me to be more creative because my attention is not being diverted by the lathe.

6. As an addendum to all the above, I teach, and people come from all over the US and Canada to learn from me. They are not paying airfare, hotel, and rental car rates along with tuition to come from places like TX, WA, FL, etc and turn on an entry level lathe. I have never ever cast aspersions on another person's choice of lathe, although I will tell people why I do or do not like a particular machine, especially before they buy. But people have the freedom to buy what they want, and it does not impact me one whit if they ignore my advice. But, if I am going to have an opinion I am going to express it. As I wrote to Brad, he has an opinion that is different than mine, and I have no problem with that. He is even better informed about the machine he has than I am (I wrote that too) and apparently he is making it work very well for him, but that does not change my opinion. I want to see lots of people having good experience with a machine before I change my opinion about it.

Finally, if you are going to label me an elitist, you are going to have to look long and hard for the evidence of that accusation, and you aren't going to find any. Even people who don't like me, and there are more than a few, would have trouble with that label being affixed to me. I have been called a lot of things, and some of them are even true, but this one is way off the mark. The truth of the matter is, this is not a discussion about elitism in lathes or anything else. If I were an elitist, why would I have written Matt telling him that his Jet mini lathe that he already owned was his best choice? Hmmmmmm??? The truth is, you are angry because I said that I did not like Grizzly lathes, and you lumped me into the anti-Grizzly crowd. I explained that in my PM to you, but I guess you missed the part where I praised their large bandsaws that I have used. I took this off line to keep it private, but you seem to want to air it. I think that is unfortunate, and I am looking forward to your response to my private message. I hope that I have explained myself clearly enough here for you to understand regarding the differences between cheap and expensive machines. The good news is, you don't even have to spend $4000 to get a lot of these features. You will find them on lathes starting at less than $2000. Quite a bargain, eh?

Bill


Bill, you said: <<"and you lumped me into the anti-Grizzly crowd">>
Yes, I did. If I was wrong I apologize. I belong to a total of six woodworking/turning forum and knocking Grizzly seems to be a constant and given on most of them. I'm sure there is some jealousy involved. Like the guys who spend $1000 or more for a Jet 14" bandsaw with the extras then find out the Grizzly, at about $400.00 has them all and more. My mantra for reccomending most Griz tools is that comparing features/quality and price, they stand out head and shoulders above anything else on the market. Call me cheap, but I am a careful comparison shopper. Most of the time I settle on Grizzly. OTOH my recent purchase of a sliding miter saw was another brand using the same standards.
I did respond in a pm.
Maybe if I ever get into the big bowls I'll consider the elephantine units. I'm not a pro, I'm a retired home shop guy. My Grizzly gets 1 to 3 hours use a day and has for four years. So far, I've replaced two belts and lubed the Reeves drive and spindle. Good service in my mind.

[Brad Hart]

It is a wonder anyone can even use them, and I do wonder if anyone actually does, regardless of the price of the lathe!

Bill

A good 2x4 between the rest and the floor does wonders. Though I prefer pipe sunk into a 5 gallon bucket of concrete for my outboarding.

[Bill Grumbine]

Bill, you said: <<"and you lumped me into the anti-Grizzly crowd">>
Yes, I did. If I was wrong I apologize.

No worries Frank. I don't think that everyone needs to have the biggest machine on the market, and in fact rarely recommend them. I recommend lots of lathes in lots of categories.

I also happen to agree with you about demonstrators being elitist if they cannot turn on the lathe the club has. I know some like that myself. I have demonstrated on all sorts of lathes, and the one I used last weekend had two people hanging onto it at times to keep it from flying over on its side. But, it is what they had, and so I used it.

I also agree with you on the Grizzly bashing thing. I personally was treated very poorly by the people at Grizzly years ago, but that does not mean that everything they do is bad. They make some nice machines that work very well. I even said to my producer that I wished I had seen his Grizzly machine before I forked out for my Mini Max. But, time was of the essence when my Jet died.

I went and looked again, and never got your PM.

Bill

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Stu, I would like to add to this one seemingly minor point here. Outboard turning with this type of tool rest extension is doomed to failure. Anything less than a post going all the way to the floor is going to have plenty of flex in it. I had the Nova outboard rest, which is the beefiest one I have ever seen short of my Poolewood, and it flexed. In fact, my Poolewood has a 3" square steel tube, and if I do not put the foot down to the floor, it flexes! I have broken these things and seen many more broken besides. It is a wonder anyone can even use them, and I do wonder if anyone actually does, regardless of the price of the lathe!

Bill

Well, I'm already figuring out how I'm going to build an outboard turning rest for the DVR 3000 I'm getting, I like Brad's idea of a 5 gallon bucket of concrete with a post in it :D

Cheers!

PS Frank, I know lots of people who would say you wasted $30 on you Casio watch, why? Well they don't need no watch, everywhere you go there are clocks, clocks on cell phone, car, microwaves, TVs, VCRs, DVDs, toilet remote controls, aircon remotes, etc. etc. why blow $30 on a watch, all around you are clocks!!!!!!!!! ;) :D:D

[tod evans]

isn`t this like comparing a datsun pick-up to an f-450 to a peterbilt? they`ll all get you there...02 tod

[Chris Barton]

Chris, I'm afraid I irritated another member here by asking for specific statements why a $4000.00 lathe is better than a $400.00 one. That is yet to be addressed. I'll use your own words to illustrate my puzzlement.
<<"you can make do with cheap tools and not notice a big difference.">>
If you don't notice (big) difference (you didn't say if in working or finished product), why bother with the extra three or four thousand dollars?

Fair question but, first of all I never said anyone needed to spend a specific amount of money. However, I can tell you that the comparison between a $4K machine and a $400 machine is much like comparing a $10 HF drill to a Festool C12. I was in a Klingspor woodworking shop today and watche a fellow make a pen on a fairly large Delta lathe. The lathe was noisey as an out of balance washing machine with a double load of bath mats inside. I noticed that the headstock and tailstock were out of alignment by at least 1/2 inch and the guy was wondering why his pens came out lopsided? My original suggestion was to take the ultimate low cost budget approach; don't buy a lathe, join a club, take a class, etc... until you have a chance to get your feet wet. Then buy a quality machine with a proven track record which, and this is really important, you have turned on and like. Many machine could fit in this class for less than $2K including a fair number under $1K. Also, rremeber this is not like your car analogy. A good lathe will easily last over a lifetime.


<<"You can make great pieces with just about any serviceable lathe">>

I repeat the question, if that is the case, why bother spending an extra three or four thousand dollars?
You say that is where it ends. Of course, a "great piece" is when you turn off the machine and start bragging. What begins after that for your extra three or four thousand dollars? I don't understand. And, I believe I am irritating some eltists. Like telling the owner of a $10,000.00 Rolex watch that my $30.00 Casio keeps just as good time as his, is just as shock and water resistant, which it is.

Another fair question. You can build a house with a handsaw and a hammer but, that doesn't mean you will like it or be pleased with the outcome. Why in heavens name if you want to get serious about a hobby that you want to enjoy would you buy equipment that will irratate you the entire time you use it or limit your creativity? Also, using your rationale about the watch, why notjust get one of the free digital watches that the burger joints give away instead of buying a watch at all? Lathes are not like watches. All watches (that work) tell time. Not all lathes will allow you to outboard turn, turn bowls, flute spindles, allow indexing... If you are happy with your lathe, that's great. However, my experience has been that HF tools are "disposable" and made that way by design. My time and efforts deserve more consideration than that. I believe that life is to short to waste your prescious time trying to make inferior tools do what they were never intended to do and I don't waste my time on bad wood. Remember, there is only one thing we can't get back in life, that's the past. I want to spend my future being happy about how I spent my past, not bitter about wasted time and effort.

[Frank Fusco]

Ok, I've stuck some pins and y'all have answered, for me at least, the question. And I thank you for the responses.
Early comments, and those seen frequently on other forums, used terms like 'big difference', 'you will never go back', etc. To me, that was about as defnitive as saying once you have made love to a blonde, a brunette will never satisfy you. No sense at all. (no, I won't go any further with that) ;)
From what I can conclude, the expensive biggies meet the needs of the professional for heavy-duty and constant production.
The popular priced units, e.g. Grizzly and a few others, meet the needs of the average home-based hobbiest that sells a few pieces not huge in size.
A comparison would be the farmer or rancher with a large diesel tractor. The guy with a lawn around his house doesn't need that tractor and can get by with a small rider mower.
So, tell me, since I have sold my cattle and the farm, why do I still have my big diesel tractor?

[tod evans]

So, tell me, since I have sold my cattle and the farm, why do I still have my big diesel tractor?

kinda hard to go to a wal-mart push mower once you`ve owned a brush hog eh? .02 tod

[Brad Hart]

So, tell me, since I have sold my cattle and the farm, why do I still have my big diesel tractor?

It depends on how much it is costing you to keep it.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Frank, not harp on the point, but the tractor and the car analogies are not good ones.


If you had 1/4 acre of nice flat lawn to mow, a cheap push mower would do, and you could get the job done, in fact, if you had 10 acres of nice flat lawn to mow, that same cheap push mower would do, no problem, it would just take a lot of time to do the mowing, the job could still be done by the same machine.

This is not true when it comes to good quality lathes.

If you try to turn a 16" x 6" deep bowl the $400 lathe just once, you may not be able to do it, and in fact, it could be down right dangerous to do so. The $400 machine cannot do the things that the $4000 can do easily, that is the difference.

Chris talks about a good lathe lasting a lifetime, well we know that is true and then some, as we see all the examples of old iron being used, and or brought back to life, like Steve Ash just did with his cool Oly, and like Matt will be doing with the old Delta he just picked up, those two lathes have outlasted their owners.

BTW, the part that I'm talking about that apparently breaks often on the Grizzly lathe is the extended tool rest thing, not the banjo.

Just the same, good read, and interesting thread guys!

Cheers!

[Bob Noles]

Stu.....

I agree that this has been a very interesting thread for sure and much thought provolking reading as well.

It has really made me stand back and evaluate my needs should I decide to upgrade down the road.

Thanks everyone!

[Matt Meiser]

If you had 1/4 acre of nice flat lawn to mow, a cheap push mower would do, and you could get the job done, in fact, if you had 10 acres of nice flat lawn to mow, that same cheap push mower would do, no problem, it would just take a lot of time to do the mowing, the job could still be done by the same machine.

This is not true when it comes to good quality lathes.

If you try to turn a 16" x 6" deep bowl the $400 lathe just once, you may not be able to do it, and in fact, it could be down right dangerous to do so.

Stu, I have to disagree with you on two points.:D

First, Obviously you haven't been to the tractor dealer lately. John Deere gives acreage ranges for their tractors. At 10 acres, I was right on the line between the small frame compact utility tractor and the medium frame. Since our terrain is extremely flat, and I only regularly mow 4 acres, the smaller size works well.

Second, I think I'd probably drop dead after push mowing my 10 acres. :eek:

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Stu, I have to disagree with you on two points.:D

First, Obviously you haven't been to the tractor dealer lately. John Deere gives acreage ranges for their tractors. At 10 acres, I was right on the line between the small frame compact utility tractor and the medium frame. Since our terrain is extremely flat, and I only regularly mow 4 acres, the smaller size works well.

Second, I think I'd probably drop dead after push mowing my 10 acres. :eek:

That is not the point.

A push mower will mow a 10' x 10' square patch of lawn just the same as a 1000' x 1000' patch of lawn, the machine is capable, if not the guy pushing it, but a $400 lathe described above, will NOT swing an 18" x 6" bowl blank well enough to get a nice bowl out of it, a VL-300 will do that time and time again.

PS I'd not make 1 acre :o

[Frank Fusco]

It depends on how much it is costing you to keep it.

Well, it costs nothing to keep it, if I don't figure the money I could have if I sold it.
I currently mow about 1 1/2 acres with lots of trees using a Craftsman riding mower/tractor. As Stu suggested, my biggie tractor a bush hog would be cumbersome at best. I might put a back blade on it to keep the gravel road in front of my house somewhat graded. My wife doesn't like the idea of a big red lawn ornament. :D To keep on topic a bit. At one time I had a notion of getting a bunch of train rail welded up into a huge tool rest and using the tractor as power for an "Oh Mi Gosh" gigantic bowl lathe. But, after considering the risks involved (I like life), kaboshed that crazy notion.

[Jim Becker]

Matt, I haven't commented until now for some reason...but I need to. The three "new" lathes you mention in your opening post really are not much of an upgrade from the Jet Mini you have sold. While they have slightly larger swing, they don't have enough power and weight to fully take advantage of it, IMHO. Old iron will often have the weight and "may" have the power, although it's machine specific.

I owned the HFT 34706 as my first lathe. It turned wood. It also stalled easily on simple bowls that got much over 8-9". I bought a more powerful machine 6 months later, selling the green machine for enough to partially cover the cost of my Talon chuck. (The Jet 1236 is pretty much the machine that the HFT machine was patterned after...with maybe a little better motor, fit and finish)

I'm not impressed with the Grizzly machines when it comes to lathes. The G0462 has been discussed a few times...no way it is really 2hp and 600rpm is not a low enough safe speed for turning larger items...and with 16" swing, you need to go slower. It does, however, have a nice start on weight, although is a bit light for a 12-16" out-of-balance hunk of log, even at the safety-designated lower rpm if it could do it.

NOW...that all said, your needs seem to be mostly for spindle work based on the language of your post. If that is the case and you are keeping the size of your "occasional bowls" on the smaller side, any of the machines you cite will work well... :) That presumes, however, that your spindles are not "big" in diameter...

[Frank Fusco]

Matt, I haven't commented until now for some reason...but I need to. The three "new" lathes you mention in your opening post really are not much of an upgrade from the Jet Mini you have sold. While they have slightly larger swing, they don't have enough power and weight to fully take advantage of it, IMHO. Old iron will often have the weight and "may" have the power, although it's machine specific.

I owned the HFT 34706 as my first lathe. It turned wood. It also stalled easily on simple bowls that got much over 8-9". I bought a more powerful machine 6 months later, selling the green machine for enough to partially cover the cost of my Talon chuck. (The Jet 1236 is pretty much the machine that the HFT machine was patterned after...with maybe a little better motor, fit and finish)

I'm not impressed with the Grizzly machines when it comes to lathes. The G0462 has been discussed a few times...no way it is really 2hp and 600rpm is not a low enough safe speed for turning larger items...and with 16" swing, you need to go slower. It does, however, have a nice start on weight, although is a bit light for a 12-16" out-of-balance hunk of log, even at the safety-designated lower rpm if it could do it.

NOW...that all said, your needs seem to be mostly for spindle work based on the language of your post. If that is the case and you are keeping the size of your "occasional bowls" on the smaller side, any of the machines you cite will work well... :) That presumes, however, that your spindles are not "big" in diameter...

Jim, you said, <<"The G0462 has been discussed a few times...no way it is really 2hp">>
Please tell me what factual information you base that statement on.
I have written Grizzly for clarification.

[Mike Ramsey]

I owned the HFT 34706 as my first lathe. It turned wood. It also stalled easily on simple bowls that got much over 8-9". I bought a more powerful machine 6 months

Well, I still own a HFT 34706 and I can say that it not only turns wood....
It will throw it at you! :rolleyes: . No way this lathe is a fine machined machine..
But it was $179.00 and that is over priced as it was....but I knew that
going in and didn't care at the time, but it didn't take me long to realise
that I wanted something better. But I have strong feelings for Old Greenie
so I put him in the corner to gather dust....I think later I will turn it into
a buffing machine, possibly it will be better suited to that kind of task.
I can't afford at this time a Oneway, Powermatic, Vic, Stubby or
others.....but these ARE with out a doubt, QUALITY machines! But I
dare say that my old HF is 98% of those puke yeller machines.:D ..
Well....maybe 98% of one leg.......;) .

[Frank Fusco]

Jim, you said, <<"The G0462 has been discussed a few times...no way it is really 2hp">>
Please tell me what factual information you base that statement on.
I have written Grizzly for clarification.




I received a prompt reply from Grizzly tech support in response to my question as to how they arrive at the horse power rating for the G0462. Their response is below:
<<
<<<We appreciate your interest in our products. Please find below the equation for determining wattage.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Amps X Voltage=Wattage<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
There are 746 watts in one horsepower>>>>

[Henry C. Gernhardt, III]

Ah-ha! That's the conversion factor! I couldn't remember that 746 number.

Now, the next question: Is it a DC motor or an AC motor? And if it is a DC motor, what losses exist in the controller? AC motors suffer from reactance losses, so what may be 1.5KVA (Kilo Volt-Amperes) in may only net about 1KW out. (The Volt-Ampere and the Watt have the same units, but the Watt is the measure of true power, whereas the Volt-Ampere is the measure of true power plus reactive power.) If this is an AC motor, if we knew the inductance of the windings we could calculate the reactance and come up with a power factor to calculate the real power being put out.

[Frank Fusco]

Ah-ha! That's the conversion factor! I couldn't remember that 746 number.

Now, the next question: Is it a DC motor or an AC motor? And if it is a DC motor, what losses exist in the controller? AC motors suffer from reactance losses, so what may be 1.5KVA (Kilo Volt-Amperes) in may only net about 1KW out. (The Volt-Ampere and the Watt have the same units, but the Watt is the measure of true power, whereas the Volt-Ampere is the measure of true power plus reactive power.) If this is an AC motor, if we knew the inductance of the windings we could calculate the reactance and come up with a power factor to calculate the real power being put out.

OK, another twist to the issue. Why is it that the doubts and zings are always only (or so it seems) aimed at Grizzly? Oh, well. But, let's get your question answered. I'll write Grizzly again and ask.

p.s. If I seem sensitive, maybe because I have several dollars invested in Grizzly tools and I like those tools. And my experience with Grizzly has always been excellent. Other companies could/shoud follow their example for customer service and care. Like many others, I rue the fact that these items are not made by Americans in American factories but that is the way of the world today. Dagnabit. As for getting the 'real' facts, an old newspaper habit. Don't know? Pick up the phone. Today, don't know, send and e-mail. I don't know what Henry is talking about, so I ask the horse, meaning Grizzly company.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Frank, I don't think that they are only at Grizzly when it comes to motors.

For too long various makers are just plain lying when it comes to what a motor will do, sure it may spike 2Hp on start up (THink compressor motors) but these same motors would not last long at all at this level for long.

I think if you posted the same info about a Kerv, Timbercon, or HF lathe that has the same "2Hp" motor on it, the questions would be raised as to the "Real" Hp of the unit.

If I'm wrong, why is it that a Baldor, or Leeson, or for the matter, a Hitachi 2Hp motor (constant use) cost so very much more than the same motor made in China?

If the motors from China were just as good, then Baldor, Leeson and Hitachi etc would be out of business, don't you think?

BTW, I'd LOVE to be able to get so many of the Grizzly product that you guys have access, for the super low prices you get too, but I don't.

Cheers!

[Bill Grumbine]

OK, another twist to the issue. Why is it that the doubts and zings are always only (or so it seems) aimed at Grizzly? Oh, well. But, let's get your question answered. I'll write Grizzly again and ask.

Frank, I think you are overly sensitive here. We did a pretty good job of bashing Harbor Freight too. You yourself hung the Harbor Fright moniker on them, although I am well aware that you did not invent it. Sears and Ridgid lathes didn't even make the cut to be bashed!

I know you are not just across the street, but I will extend the same invitation to you that I have to so many others. If you are ever in eastern PA, the shop door is open and we will welcome you to our home. While you are here I will show you what a 2HP motor really looks like.

Bill

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Dunno if this is 2 hp or not...........

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/cyclone/motor_painted1.jpg

I'm no whimp, but it just about killed me lifting this thing up onto the blower mount. :eek:

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/dc/dc_motor_plate.jpg

OK it may be a bit bigger than 2 Hp, but not much.......;):D

[Don Baer]

Stu
2.2KW/.746=2.94 HP almost 3 HP

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Stu
2.2KW/.746=2.94 HP almost 3 HP

I know.... But this 3 Hp motor may weigh as much or more than the HF lathe...? :D

[Frank Fusco]

Stu, Bill, I appreciate the responses. First, I must qualify (or un-qualify) myself when it comes to discussing anything electric. I don't know a single-phase or three-phase anything from a moon phase. I need two Boy Scouts to help me change flashlight batteries. There is a 'how to' manual next to the plugs and outlets for my power tools. I do understand a little (very little) about the term "peak horsepower" for things like routers. But, when a big (and, in my opinion, reputable) company says their gee-whiz machine has a two-horsepower motor, I pretty much accept that as honest representation. Is there no standarization in this madness?
Bill, like you Casa Fusco in the Arkansas Ozarks is always open to friends. If you see a white Dodge pull up yer driveway, fire up the grill. :)

[Bill Grumbine]

Frank, Stu has explained it pretty well with his motor pic, but here is another illustration for you. I have been working on this piece today. It started out at 25" from tip to tip (and still is) and about 1 1/2" thick. It is, as you can see, very irregular, not to mention fairly heavy. It is mounted on my Vega bowl lathe, which sports a 2HP 3 phase motor. Now, I am not far behind you when it comes to understanding this stuff, but all I know is there is no way I would put this piece of wood on ANY entry level lathe. Even if you could balance it to keep the lathe from literally falling over, it would tear the headstock apart in fairly short order. Cutting would be almost impossible since every time you would touch the gouge to the wood, it would stall the machine. I left the Vega set on the high range because I was too lazy to move the belt and I wanted the faster rpm once I got it (better) balanced. Top speed was around 350 rpm for a lot of the initial work. Then I got it up to almost 800 rpm for my finishing cuts. Even with the lathe I have I had to take it easy with the cutting out on the edges, and I had to keep the speed down to keep from shaking the lathe around the shop.

Bill

[Andy Hoyt]

.... But, when a big (and, in my opinion, reputable) company says their gee-whiz machine has a two-horsepower motor, I pretty much accept that as honest representation. Is there no standarization in this madness? .... The honest representation ends when the designers and engineers pass it off to sales and marketing.

[Brad Hart]

all I know is there is no way I would put this piece of wood on ANY entry level lathe.
Bill

Your are right any unmodified entry level lathe. The Speed and stability of cheaper models including the jet 1442 are not such that what you are doing is really possible with them I have turned a similar piece to what you are doing on a 1442 that was about half the size and even at its lowest speed setting it litterally shook the piece apart. This shape is not easy on the less sturdy lathes. For me to do these pieces on my modified lathe (I can do one about 15") it takes turning it down to 150 to 200 rpms taking very shallow cuts.

The one thing I think you and I agree on is most lathes can make a nice quality piece it simply is a matter of maximum size your lathe will handle safely.

[Henry C. Gernhardt, III]

A quick aside on horsepower...

I wasn't trying to bash any product---grizzly, harbor freight, craftsman, or any other---in making the comment about apparent versus real power. My thought was simply that if they're quoting volts times amps, then that's not going to be the true power.

About the only way you're going to truly determine what the shaft horsepower is on a motor to any degree of accuracy is to hook it up to a dynamometer. This device can directly measure shaft horsepower.

Another issue: Torque. Some motors are designed for torque, some for horsepower. A high-torque motor can turn much heavier loads at much slower speeds. A high-horsepower motor will be able to turn things at relatively high speeds, but won't be able to handle massive things very well.

Think about this: You have an F-350 with a 5.0L Cummins Turbo Diesel, and an F-350 with a 5.0L gasoline engine. Unloaded, the gasoline engine will smoke the diesel in a drag race (more horsepower in the gas engine). Now, let's hook'em both up with a gooseneck 6-horse slant-load trailer, and load the thing up with clydesdales. The Diesel truck will be able to take off more smoothly, and sustain better speed on inclines, due to the higher torque of the diesel as compared to the gas engine.

My point(s):

My question about your motor, Frank, was mostly academic. I find it interesting that a manufacturer/supplier would quote apparent power as the power of a motor, however I understand that there are a great deal of vagaries in trying to determine shaft horsepower without a dynamometer.

My point on Torque vs. Horsepower? Bill's Vega, with its heavy construction and high low-end torque, not to mention sturdy bearings, is going to be able to handle the large, out-of-balance pieces. Horsepower and torque go hand-in-hand to a certain extent, but the heavier and more out-of-balance things become, the more torque you're going to need.

[Frank Fusco]

Frank, Stu has explained it pretty well with his motor pic, but here is another illustration for you. I have been working on this piece today. It started out at 25" from tip to tip (and still is) and about 1 1/2" thick. It is, as you can see, very irregular, not to mention fairly heavy. It is mounted on my Vega bowl lathe, which sports a 2HP 3 phase motor. Now, I am not far behind you when it comes to understanding this stuff, but all I know is there is no way I would put this piece of wood on ANY entry level lathe. Even if you could balance it to keep the lathe from literally falling over, it would tear the headstock apart in fairly short order. Cutting would be almost impossible since every time you would touch the gouge to the wood, it would stall the machine. I left the Vega set on the high range because I was too lazy to move the belt and I wanted the faster rpm once I got it (better) balanced. Top speed was around 350 rpm for a lot of the initial work. Then I got it up to almost 800 rpm for my finishing cuts. Even with the lathe I have I had to take it easy with the cutting out on the edges, and I had to keep the speed down to keep from shaking the lathe around the shop.

Bill


No argument on that from me. I believe what we have been talking about is perspectives from two different worlds. Not many turners even attempt very large bowls and would not have a need for the $4000.00 Maximus Gigantus lathe. I am only Oh-Hum impressed with the big dollar lathes I have seen. (that's only a few) The big all-in-one power head/spindle headstocks seem to spend more time in shipment back for repairs than in use. And, one in particular, owned by a friend, out of warranty, costs more to repair each time than a new $400.00 Grizzly. Until recently, my turning club had a member who was (still is) a professional bowl turner. His bowls sell in art galleries in the $3000.00 range. Until recently he used what many would call 'entry level' and still turned his beautiful bowls and vases. Then he got a big dollar something lathe. When asked about it, he shrugged his shoulders and said "It's a lathe". He doesn't get anymore money for his bowls now. Maybe if my ship comes in, less likely every day, I'll consider a big dollar upgrade. But, for now, color me 99% happy with my Grizzly. One day I tell why it isn't 100%.

[Brad Hart]

I find it interesting that a manufacturer/supplier would quote apparent power as the power of a motor,

I have never seen a tool motor no matter how much it cost quoted at anything other than apparent power of amps x volts divided by 748.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here, but I'll give it one more try.:p

The top of the line lathe will do things that your $400 Grizzly lathe can only dream of.

If I, as a turner, wish to do these things, for whatever reason, then your $400 Grizzly lathe is a waste of money, to me.

The expensive lathe is a bargain.

Here is another comparison.

When they were constructing my building, the guys doing the re-bar in the concrete had a machine made by a company I'd never heard of (nor can remember) and this thing was designed to do one thing, cut re-bar. It was big, a bit heavy, but it was portable, and ran off a 18V rechargeable battery. I was a hydraulic clipper.

It had a set of jaws on it that each jaw was about 2" thick and had the shape of the re-bar in it. The re-bar I'm talking about is 1 1/2" thick, or maybe it was slightly thicker than that. They had to clip the ends to join on new pieces (7 story building) this machine was put on the re-bar where you wanted the cut, the first trigger was pulled, the machine grabbed the re-bar on both sides of the cut, then the second trigger was pulled, the thing started to cut, took a good two minutes for the cut. When done, the cut was mirror smooth and a perfect 90.

I looked at that and asked why they did not just use a cutting torch, or even a plasma arc torch. They told me that each method was way too slow, and did not leave a nice enough cut for the joint, so they would have to then spend time grinding the cut smooth. I asked how much the machine cost, they told me just under Hyakuman, which is just shy of 1,000,000 yen, or about $10,000 US :eek:

Now came the kicker, the took a second machine, lined up the new piece of re-bar above the just cut one, they attached the machine to the two pieces, and then turned it on, (this one was run by a BIG portable gen) this machine mashed the two ends together, and ran a HUGE current through the joint, welding them together in about 30 seconds, the joint was stronger than the metal that surrounds it.

Sorry to be so long-winded:o but my point is that for these guys, a torch and a grinder would cost them money, having the right tool, an expensive one at that, saved them money.

Frank for what you are doing, it sounds like you have the right lathe, but for many other guys, that lathe is not good value.

You have mentioned these expensive lathes that constantly break, and are expensive to repair, I'd really like to hear the brands, and what exactly broke, just in the interest of avoiding these products.

Cheers!

[Joe Tonich]

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here, but I'll give it one more try.:p


You wouldn't be the only one Stu.......

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/jt6089/beat_deadhorse.gif

[Frank Fusco]

Mabey I am beating a dead horse here by reviving this thread. I was curious about an early post slamming the Grizzly G0462 horsepower rating without reference to any facts. Also, I am not well versed in things electrical and was curious as to what Grizzly meant by "2 horse power". A post with an early reply only partially explained things. Then, others here chimed in with lengthy explanations and pictures of motors that really muddied the situation. For me, more confusion was added recently when I visited a large tool store in Little Rock, Arkansas. There was a display of electric motors. One, a 3/4 hp. dwarfed at 2 hp right next to it. Go figger. I don't understand. Anyhow, I received a reply from Grizzly that satisfies me. It is quoted in it's entirety as a copy and paste below. Please note, the responder is a fellow SC'er.

<<<Dear Frank,

Hello, your request for information was forwarded to us from our PA location. We've seen you around on Sawmill Creek and appreciate your comments - Thanks. As for the lathe question, the motor on the G0462 is a 1725 RPM, single phase, capacitor start, induction type (AC, not DC). The nameplate rating is 2hp, and I assure you it provides far more power than anyone would ever need on a lathe this size. Just ask anyone who actually owns or has used this lathe and they will verify it's robustness (Think V8 in compact pickup. It's more power than you need, but it sure is nice to have) ;-) . It uses a simple and reliable reeves drive to vary the speed (variable speed pulley), so there is no AC inverter or associated power losses. I hope this answers your question.

Sincerely,


Matt Carleton
Quality Control
Grizzly Industrial Inc>>>
</PRE>

[Frank Fusco]

No one asked me, but in an earlier post I said I was 99% pleased with my Grizzly G1067Z lathe and if anyone asked, I would tell why not 100%. But, I'll change that to more like 97% pleased. And, even though no one asked, I'll explain the defieiencies as I see them.
#1: The non-standard 1"X12tpi spindle. Hard to find adapters for this. Newer Griz lathes are now standardized with the rest of the world.
#2: The Reeves drive variable speed control requires changing speeds only when running. This may be a common feature of all Reeves drives, Griz or not. But, for a lathe, I don't like it. If one should forget to put on slow and then mount a large, heavy, pre-bowl blank and hit the start button while on high speed, one could be replacing a mouthful of teeth. Solution, of course, is to get in the habit of putting on slowest setting at end of every project AND double-check before mounting new work. But, I still don't like it.
#3: The speed control handle, when at highest speed intrudes into the work zone and can interfere with the workers hand or tool handles. Two extra minutes of engineering would/could correct this. For whatever insane reason, this defect continues with later models. I think some Chinese engineer is a sadist.

Other than that, for the dollar value, the Grizzly IMHO is the best lathe available on the market. Granted, it is not a 1500 pound, $5000.00 monster. What it is is a $400.00 lathe that will do whatever anyone wants up to it's 14" X 40" capacity.

[Frank Fusco]

I may be grave digging on this issue but the original thread both bothered and confused me. An experience today may have brought some clarification. The motor on my Grizzly lathe (see: "bad motor" thread) just wouldn't work for me. To shorten the story, the electric motor shop where I go is owned by a fellow who has been building and repairing motors for 55 years. He said that many foriegn motors (he dislikes Tiawan stuff) use the amprage forumula to determine horsepower. He says that for a more accurate idea of power, just divide by 2. The reason, he says, is that about 50% of power is lost to inefficiency of the motor. He says that American motors are tested for actual ouput at the shaft and those readings are more realistic. However, after saying that, he paused and added "American motors seem to be getting pretty sorry these days". So my original question finally has been answered. Is there no standardization? Answer: No.

[Harvey Schneider]

Stu
2.2KW/.746=2.94 HP almost 3 HP

Power out of the shaft isn't necessarily equal to power into the windings. When I worked on high speed brushless DC motors (3 HP 26,000 RPM) it was hard to get better than 70% efficiency.
With an induction motor in addition to the eddy current losses (current induced in the laminations that does no useful work), windage losses, vibration losses, bearing losses and wire losses (wire resistance makes heat not magnetic field) there is the phase angle between voltage and current due to inductance that limits the real power that can be extracted from the shaft (real power = volts x amps x cosine phase angle).
Motor manufacturers are also fond of quoting peak horsepower which is a really useless spec.
Buying quality is like buying oats. If you want nice, clean, fresh, oats you have to pay a premium price for them. Of course, if you are willing to put up with oats that have already been through the horse, well, they come cheaper.;)