Incra Tablesaw Fence...Worth it?

[Forrest Price]

Hi folks, Well I'm in a bit of a pickle. I need to figure out what to do for a new TS fence. I REALLY liked the quality of the incra router fence I used to have, so I'm looking to them for a TS fence.

Need the 52" system, and the big question to those of you that have or have used one is..is it worth the $$?

I turn the big "40" in July so I need to get the ideas out there..drop some major hints to LOML, maybe a circled brochure etc...:D

Really tough call right now since I need a planer as well and the two are near the same price!

Any help from those that have experience would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

[Kent Fitzgerald]

First question: do you have room for it? The 52" fence will require something like 7-8' clearance to the right of the blade.

[Forrest Price]

First question: do you have room for it? The 52" fence will require something like 7-8' clearance to the right of the blade.

Well, room's not an issue. Had the 7ft rail shopfox fence pre-fire and it gave me 52" or so to the right, and I found I used the capacity quite a bit. New shop layout will give me all the room I need for it.

Heck, I'd make room for one of those fancy sliding tables for it if I could only win the lottery! :D:D

[Chris Rosenberger]

I have a 52" LS model on a Powermatic 66 & like it. It works out well.

[Wade Ellis]

forrest, I've had mine for about 5 years now and
consider it to be one of the best upgrades I've made.
I replaced the beismeier (?) on my delta.

[Vaughn McMillan]

Forrest, I've got the equivalent of the TSIII system on my Ridgid TS3650, and I'm sold on it. Bear in mind I've not use a Bies (or clone thereof) as a benchmark, but when I do move up to a cabinet saw, either the Incra is moving to it, or I'll be getting whatever the latest Incra system is.

When I added the Incra rails to the saw (so I could fully utilize the Ultra Jig I was fortunate enough to win in the FreeStuff drawing), I also moved my router table insert from the right-hand side to the left. I installed one set of stops in the TS rails to position the fence for TS use, and another set of stops for the RT. I just loosen the base mount, slide it down the rails to one of the two positions, then tighten it back up. After the initial setup, it's stayed true so far.

- Vaughn

[Jim Becker]

Forrest, the Incra system is very good. But it's not for everyone. Personally, I prefer a traditional rip fence system, such as the Biesemeyer-style or UniFence. And Kent's caution is valid...when you are doing a wide rip, such as working with sheet goods, the center support of the Incra system goes WAY to the right of the saw, well beyond the extension table. That means you cannot have the right end of the saw near a wall if it is a stationary machine.


If the type of work you like to do will benefit from the incremental adjustment that is the key feature of the Incra, it's the best thing since sliced veneer. If your work is largely "normal" ripping of materials, it doesn't buy you anything in a significant way. IMHO, of course. Let your work dictate your decision.

[Dave Richards]

Kent and Jim make good points about the clearance required to the right of the saw. That said, I think I'd still buy an Incra TS fence again. I like mine a great deal. There are times when I wish it didn't stick out so far. I only have the 32" (or whatever the short one is) so it isn't as big a deal as the 52". If I'm not using the rip fence I sometimes slip it out of that center thing with the locking mechanism and set the fence aside. It's easy enough to do.

[Forrest Price]

Hey, one thing I hadn't thought of. Occasionally I move the fence to the left of the blade if doing bevel cuts sometimes.....what's the Inra version? Even possible?

Guess maybe I should see if I can download destructions and do some reading.

[Chris Rosenberger]

Yes you can use the fence to the left of the blade. With the fence setup for 52" rips to the right of the blade I can get 14" rips to the left.

[Jim Bills]

I've had my TS-LS for about 2 years, the best addition to a table saw I could imagine. Probably wouldn't be my first choice if all I cut was sheet goods, but wonderful for repeatability. My 4-5/8" rip cut today, is exactly like my 4-5/8" rip cut I made last month. Works well for me.

Jim

[Robert Gilbert]

Agreed. I've had mine for two years, and while I don't use the micrometer much, I never worry about accuracy - the tolerance is pretty amazing.

[Alison Gray]

I have also heard great things about the jointech fence systems as well. Less expensive than the incra's but has the same features. Check out their website.

[Bob Feeser]

Forrest,
I am tempted to write a book. I have the TSIII-32 on my 2004 PM66. There are a lot of very nice fences out there, I have the Accu fence that came with the PM, which is really a Beis clone, a heavy duty, industrial grade piece of equipment, that you can, with concentration, to get your eye directly over the hairlines, get an incredibly accurate cut. But the Incra re-invented the wheel. Once you totally understand how it works, and compares with the alternatives, you will feel like it is worth more than the price they charge for it.

The face of the fence is thick aluminum, boxed or corrugated, so it is perfectly flat and even across it's entire surface. It is not off by even a thousandth along its entire surface. No wavies there. It secures at the rear clamp on the bridge, also on the end closest to you, and if you like, on the end farthest away from you. So it clamps on all "3" corners if you like, or just the bridge clamp, and the one closest to you for normal use. That resutls in no, as in zero deflection, even if you pounce on it with a 4x8 sheet.
http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/4251/2918871520100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
That little knob is the fine adjust knob. Each line is 1/1000th of an inch, in case you want to tweak a setting. That beats the pants off of loosening the big knob, hoping the fence does not jump, and then banging it with your hand, hoping you moved it just right, then making a sample cut, bang it again, make another sample cut, ad infinitum...
http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/11147/2818296080100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
Those sharp little honeycomb teeth have to line up in 1/32nd increments in order to tighten down the clamp that holds the fence. That guarantees that your setting is accurate, even when you do not have your glasses on. And repeatability on returning cuts is accurate to 1/1000th as well. No effort flawless results every time. I get it close to the hairline on one of the 5 rules on top, one each you calibrate for different blade thicknesses etc, and it falls into perfection for me. I make a cut, take out a dial caliper, and it is within 1/1000th every single time. I blows my mind, and everyone I demonstrate it to. Do we need 1/1000th of an inch accuracy with no effort? Well no, but just how off is acceptable with more effort? I love to say that, "Just how wrong of a cut is acceptable with you?" I never ever need to do a sample cut, wasting a lot of stock and time. Just dial it in and zingo.
http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/11990/2545048730100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
Here is a shot of the Accu Fence/Beis clone, notice how thick the metal is and how it is made. If you stay directly over the hairlines, when making a setting, and concentrate on both sides of the lower hairline disappearing behind the one on the top, you can get a crazy accurate cut. But the other 2 things to consider are that 1) The fence face is not exactly perfectly straight. Many methods have been discussed to straighten it, but the phenolic is not on a par with the aluminum formed fence for straightness. 2) Also, in Fine Woodworking magazine in the saw run off, mentioned in there findings that the fence will move when wood is pressing on it sideways. That is a result of the problem of only having the fence lock on the one edge closest to you. The leverage principle comes into play, and the tail can wag. I mean it was off by 6 thousandths or something. Beis only guarantees accuracty to 1/64th, and Incra to 1/1000th. When you are getting perfectly glass smooth cuts, ready to go on the piece, rather then having to deal with saw tooth marks, that are a result o slight waves in the fence face, or a bending fence, you further realize just how much less effort the Incra is to get the results you want in less time and effort. Then when you are taking the saw tooth marks out, you are readjusting the cut edge, or rounding, or off planing the cut, or jointing to a final line which is never totally accurate to your cut. Forrest WWII instructs you to set your fence 1/1000 wide at the rear of the blade. What kind of good does that do you when you are dealing with the wag?
http://inlinethumb45.webshots.com/5228/2635753640100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

Look, I loved my old Sears way out of alignment fence, that I would adjust, then concentrate on how much pressure I was putting on it, to get it in the ballpark while I was making a cut. But I still loved it. Just like I am sure everyone here loves there fence that is way better than that. But you asked a question, and I think you deserve an honest answer from me. We can call it my opinion, but just study the facts.
I could write another paragraph on how the Incrability factors in on your work procedures, and how much time it saves you, and material, and how all of your work fits so perfectly all of the time, but I have probably reached the outer parameters of those who want to read a thread. If you have any questions please feel free to ask me. I absolutely love the Incra fence, the Incra rules, I have gone Incramania, or as some may think of it, an Incramaniac. I know I am going to click on submit reply, and 15 things will pop into my head like, Bob you forgot to tell him about this, or what about that.........:)
PS: I have absolutely no knowledge of the Jointech fence/system, but since it works on the same principles, it probably gets the same results. Definitely something to look into, notice I said look into, as in I haven't looked into it yet either, but I am going to do some snooping, and I am curious what everyone else comes up with.

Oh one more thing. I know I am splitting hairs here, but the "Sawtooth" model, the one I have illustrated above, is $389 at Amazon, the "Lead Screw" is $458. Interestingly enough, the saw tooth is guaranteed to within 1/1000th during it's entire length, and the lead screw is guaranteed by Incra's leading seller Woodpecker.com by 1/1000th per foot. And I emphasize per foot. Is there possibly a problem in getting a threaded rod to be created that is accurate beyond 1/1000th per foot, then when you get 2 feet away it is off by 2/1000ths etc. Whereas the saw tooth model, each one of those saw tooth strips is calibrated giving you zero inaccuracy. Did Incra create a new design that is not possibly as accurate as the old one, and the old one is cheaper? By the way, I did a little looking into the Jointech before coming back and doing this edit, and it is $229 at the Jointech site. Whether they have any outlets that are discounting, I do not know. I know I am bias toward the Incra, but look at the 2 of them. Does the Jointech look cheap. Is the locking mechanism Mickey Mouse? Insufficient data captain, but at first glance, that is what I see. Do you want gold anodized aluminum, or Jointechs plasticky look. Sorry I love the Incra setup. Just the way it looks is worth the extra 160 bucks to me. I spent the 160 once, and get to enjoy the difference the rest of my life.
The other consideration is that Incra comes along and reinvents the wheel, giving themselves full choices when deciding how to make components, then patent them, the imitator has to create less than ideal mechanisms to not infringe on patent rights. Kind of like dealing with one hand tied behind there back. I could be wrong and the Jointech system could be superior, but those are my thoughts. I couldn't find any reputable magazines that did a shootout with a comparison of the Incra and Jointech. The only thing I found were discussion sites, and personal opinion. I bet someone is saying that about this review.:eek:

[Brandon Shew]

I've had both an Incra and a Biesemeyer. So here's my impressions of the Pros & Cons of each:

Incra Pros:
1) Very high quality materials and construction
2) Extremely precise and easy to adjust with an easy to read scale
3) Allows for exact repeatability - which can be very handy if you ever have to remake a component because you botched something during a later stage (not that I have ever done that :))
4) Slotted tracks on 3 sides of the fence make it easy to attach sacrificial fences, stops, guides, feather boards, and other jigs.

Incra Cons:
1) As mentioned, due to the nature of the design, it is possible for the guide rail of the incra to extend 30"+ beyond the end of the rails. I have a small shop now and this is the reason that I had to switch to the Biesemeyer.
2) It is a PITA to assemble the first time. The instructions are great, but there are lots of components, screws, etc...
3) You can't have an outfeed table butt up directly to the back of your saw w/ the Incra as the back of the fence rides in the back rail.
4) It isn't quite as easy to lock the fence in place (compared to the Biesemeyer or other lever actuated designs). When you want to lock in the back of the fence (not required, but possible) it takes an allen wrench.

Biesemeyer Pros:
1)Taller fence (when compared to the Incra)
2) Heavy Duty - built like a tank
3) Lever actuated position lock is easy to use
4) Slides easy along rail
5) No problem with outfeed table directly butted up to the table top

Biesemeyer Cons:
1) Very Heavy - probably adds another 70 lbs to your saw
2) Installation required drilling holes in my cast iron table
3) Laminate covered MDF fence face can be dinged or dented
4) No T-Track or other way to easily attach jigs to the fence (without drilling into the fence and adding it yourself.)
5) Fit and finish not as good as the Incra.

To answer your original question - yes it is worth it. Bob made some good points in his post. I've never run across a bad Incra product and their TS-III or TS-LS table saw fences are no exception. I like the Biesemeyer just as much as my Incra, but in different ways. Using the Biese, I have seen where the Incra would have come in handy a few times. If you have a router in your tablesaw top, then the Incra would be my choice.

When I had my Incra, a buddy of mine and I were comparing it to his Biesemeyer and he said somehting that kind of stuck with me - "The Incra is a thinkin' man's fence and the Biesemeyer is a doin' man's fence."

[Bob Feeser]

I've had both an Incra and a Biesemeyer. "The Incra is a thinkin' man's fence and the Biesemeyer is a doin' man's fence."

I like your buddy already. That is a funny and true saying. Pertaining to the Incra installation, it does take a little time to install, but on Incra's behalf, they label and place the hardware for each section in it's own bag, and purposely give you more of what you need, so you have plenty left over.
The Beis does go together faster, but I would say the Incra takes maybe an extra hour. But who is counting minutes when it feels like Christmas morning? :)
I feel blessed that I have both, and do love both of them. The Accu Fence (Beis Clone) works great on the other saw, because I have zero clearance on the end of that station, and I love the industrial grade feel of it.
You also brought up a point about the outfeed table mating up to it. It does present some special challenges having a rear rail, that causes the outfeed to be a few inches away from the table saw top. So I build a ramp on the leading edge. That way I could get the entire outfeed table perfectly even with the table top, and not have to worry about catching the wood on the leading edge. Norm Abrams mentions that he sets his outfeed 1/8" lower in the front to compensate for that problem.
http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/5861/2149760690100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
You will also notice I did about a foot or foot and a half or so cutout so I can access the clamping knobs, for those rare occassions I want to move the fence to the 8 foot sheet position. Yes you can get totally accurate cuts up to 52" with just 4 locking knobs, slide the bridge down to a bolt, large thick washer and nut that you preset, and tighten down, and get totally accurate cuts to a thou again. But you have to access that side of the fence for that, so I created the cut out.
Here is a picture of it, not yet attached to my old saw before I got the PM, so you can see how the cut out looks down the other end.
http://inlinethumb57.webshots.com/3064/2245655740100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
Your review is spot on. Great input.

[Bob Feeser]

Let me embellish on the Incra advantage a little more. I was reading a post on the home page, and it was covering how to cut 1/8th in strips. So ponder on the challenges of such a move. You can't run a push stick between the blade and the fence, so how do you do it? Make your cut pushing the waste section outside of the blade, then reach over and try to pull the thin strip out that is now loose, and trapped between the blade and the fence? That not only is condusive to a kick back, that is a finger grabber as well.
The solution is to cut your 1/8th strips wide of the fence. In other words, you cut your first piece to set your reference, and then move the fence whatever the width of the piece you are trying to cut, in this example 1/8th inch, plus the thickness of the blade. What if your blade is 3/32nds. So you are going to move your fence over exactly 1/8th plus 3/32nds =7/32nds for each cut. Do you think that without the advantage of locking teeth every 1/32nd that is accurate to 1/1000th that you are going to wind up with a pile of strips exactly 1/8th wide? No way. With the Incra, this is just standard procedure. So what does this mean. You are making your job safer, your 1/8th strip is always falling to the outside, and you are saving time because there is no overcutting the strips, then having to plane them to thickness. Faster, safer, better, less waste. That is the Incra result. Combining the Incra with a larger horsepower motor, and you can use a larger number of teeth blade, and wind up with glass smooth surfaces as well.

[Don Bullock]

After fighting with the fence on my old Craftsman I decided to get an Incra for the accuracy. I'm very pleases with it. For me the Incra was a great choice.

[David Giles]

I've got a 32" TSLS that handles 95% of the cuts. Precision and repeatability are the big upsides to the fence. The downside is that the extension takes up a lot of room. A 52" fence would at 8-10ft of walking to get around the right side of the saw. And the positioner would be steps away from the blade.

However you could purchase smaller Incra and extend the rails to the right side. Any cut bigger than 32", slide the entire assemble right 20" and you've got a 52" cut with a 32" Incra. A stop bolt in the rails lets you position the assembly each time without measuring. Just an idea.

[Brian Kerley]

Hey, one thing I hadn't thought of. Occasionally I move the fence to the left of the blade if doing bevel cuts sometimes.....what's the Inra version? Even possible?

Guess maybe I should see if I can download destructions and do some reading.

Oh yeah. There are a couple of stops that you put in the rails. So what you do is have a set of stops for the positioner on the right side of the saw. Then, when you want to rip fence on the left of the blade, you move the positioner over to the left, then, take out the fence and flip it around and re-insert.

[robert micley]

i love micropositioners for all my quality woodworking.when working on my barn projects i use my regular rigid portable table saw.weather changes outside make perfection a moot point because everything shrinks and swells.also my outdoor materails are never flat so exact cuts are impossible and unnecessary.for house projects i love micro tools like the microfence,jointech miter sled and jointech positioner fence.i also have a jointech fence for my router table.never had a incra but it looks just like the jointech.but nowdays you can get a digital table fence so i do not think you need an incra but just add this on to your biesmeyer.you can made a leadscrew jig to push or back up your fence.rockler has one for 19.00 on sale.one thing i learned is that i do not need a 52 inch saw.i stopped ripping all my plywood goods on the table saw and use the festool guiderail.i cannot recall the last time i ripped anything over 30 inches on my tablesaw

[Bob Feeser]

This is key. The Incra, the way they set it up in the following picture
http://www.incra.com/images/tsf_main_pic1on.jpg

requires that you buy the optional 92" rails if you want to be able to handle 8 foot sheets. But, I called Incra, and they told me that I could get 52" cuts, (way more then you need to cut 8 foot sheets) by positioning the standard rails that come with it like this;

http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/4251/2918871520100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
That also reduces the overall space that it takes up. Plus I do not need rails out to the left side of the blade. It works great.


I've got a 32" TSLS that handles 95% of the cuts. Precision and repeatability are the big upsides to the fence. The downside is that the extension takes up a lot of room. A 52" fence would at 8-10ft of walking to get around the right side of the saw. And the positioner would be steps away from the blade.

However you could purchase smaller Incra and extend the rails to the right side. Any cut bigger than 32", slide the entire assemble right 20" and you've got a 52" cut with a 32" Incra. A stop bolt in the rails lets you position the assembly each time without measuring. Just an idea.

[Brian Dormer]

You might want to read what Marc over at WoodWhisperer said about the Incra fence. He was less than impressed.

[Vic Damone]

I had a Bies on my Walker Turner and I considered it a substantial upgrade. It was difficult to hang devises on it but it was heavy duty. I was forced to liquidate that shop ten years ago.

I've since purchased a contractor saw (long story) and am simply amazed by the accuracy and repeatability of the Incra. No test cuts, no knuckle tapping, and quickly and easily recalibrated. I've got an eight foot aluminum extrusion I can mount and when the Incra is locked down at the front and the back the extrusion is very stable. There is zero deflection or uplifting, something a T-square can't claim.

Still, I'll agree with the above responders the Incra may not be for everyone. If you use the area to the right of the fence as a catch all you'll lose this space to the Incra's beam. The Incra uses a rear channel which may interfere with an existing outfeed table and over the rear of the table blade guard brackets. So there are a few things to consider.

I paid $275 for a 52" LS (lead screw) from Amazon.

Vic

[Pete London]

Forrest,

I have a TSLS32" that I bought a few years back at the Atlanta WW show. It was an immediate improvement on my Jet contractor saw. We moved and it has taken me two years to get back into the grove of WW and get the thing aligned properly.

It is not for everyone and if I could do it over I will get a cabinet saw with a good fence. Nevertheless the saw is great and my TSLS is very accurate and best of repeatable.

I am still on the fence (pun intended) about getting the wonder fence and other assessories to go with it. I have the left router table from Woodpeckers and generally like there stuff, pricey as it is.

Good luck.

[Bob Feeser]

You might want to read what Marc over at WoodWhisperer said about the Incra fence. He was less than impressed.

I went over to The Wood Whisperer, and read Marc's review. I have a lot of respect for Marc, love the Wood Whisperer videos, and site, have had a couple of extensive conversations with him via email, and appreciate that he would take the time to respond to my inquiries. Be that as it may, I think that he made several criticisms of the Incra fence that I think should be clarified.

I came back and edited this post because I posted a rather scathing commentary of his commentary, which I do not think is professional of me, so I have edited it.

[J. Greg Jones]

Marc, thanks for checking in on this topic. I already responded to your blog about the problems that you encountered with the Incra fence, but for those here that have not seen it I will try to briefly recap what I wrote. I encountered the same alignment issues that you had when I first set up my LS-III fence. Incra's tech support quickly identified the problem and suggested that I shim the fence glide brackets which did correct the problem. I can now put a dial indicator in the miter slot, set the fence, and it is within .001 front to rear. If I move the fence 1/2", the dial indicator moves within .001 of .500 and it is still within .001 front to rear. I could not ask for a more accurate and repeatable fence, once the alignment issue with the glide brackets was corrected.

For those not familiar with moving the Incra fence carriage for rip cuts greater than 32", that takes me about 30 seconds to move it out and the same to move it back. It really is easier done than what it sounds like, and Incra has a nice video on their site that demonstrates the procedure. Frankly I find the speed and accuracy that I get with the Incra on the 98%+ of the cuts I make at less than 32" more than offsets the inconvenience of moving the carriage for wider cuts.

Is the Incra right for everyone? Absolutely not-there are many differences between how it operates compared to a T-square fence. I'd recommend that anyone considering one research it thoroughly and try to get some hands-on time with it if possible. However for me, it's all good and I would really not like going back to my old fence.

One final question on the topic, well 2 questions actually but since one of them may appear to be confrontational rather than sincere, I'll ask one of them via PM. You mention that your career depends on public opinion and that you would prefer to be contacted privately on questions concerning your methodology before posting in public. I can fully appreciate and respect that. Would you agree that Incra, or any other company for that matter, should be afforded the same courtesy? After all, their livelihood depends on public opinion as well. Perhaps a call to Incra to inquire about the issue you encountered with the fence moving when locked down would have changed your opinion of the fence somewhat. Thanks and be well.

Greg

[Bill White]

I'm askin' this 'cause I really want to know.....
I hear everyone talking in terms of +- .00_ of an inch for dados, cut widths, repeatability, etc. Sounds great, but how accurate seems to be a moot point when dealing with wood. Are the kitchen cabinets, entertainment centers, raised panel doors ever the same dimension from day to day? Here in Mississippi (that means humidity) the wood changes dimension before I can get through with a rip cut.
Do you gauge your finished products by the microns of finish material?
Certainly not tryin' to be a smarta$$, but the old masters didn't seem to build to space age tolerances.
Bill (it's cold and dry today-everything is shrinkin') in MS.

[Matthew Voss]

Marc-

Not liking the fence system, ok, I can understand that - but no oysters!!!

Thanks for opining.

[Jim Kaczmark]

I've had my Incra on a Sawstop for about 3 months now. Have used it to build all of my shop furnishings, and have made several samples of kitchen cabinets with it. (I'm prepping for a major kitchen cabinet project.) I honestly can say that I could not have done many of the things that I do with out it. A few examples:

When initially designing something, one inevitable needs to go back and make another cut of an exact dimension as a prior cut. In this "proof of concept" phase of my work, or simply building the first cabinet of several, the "workflow" is not usually set up to the point that I can usually make all of my rip cuts, etc. at the same time. The repeatability of the Incra has removed the error in repeating a cut at a later time. Once I have a complete cut list as a result of my design phase, I've been able have a work flow that also eliminates most of this resetting to a prior cut dimension. In the mean time, the Incra has saved me much time.

I no longer measure anything on a board. I simply set the fence and cut. I did spend about two full days setting up my Sawstop and Incra, following all the setup & verification procedures that you could ever imagine. I initially had the Incra fence about 0.006 inches out of parallel to the mitre track on the TS... following the procedures in the Incra installation & setup guide, I reduced this to 0.001". I have three stop positions set up with my Incra TS-LS. One for short cuts, one for long cuts, and a third where I can flip the fence around for use with my router (on the right hand side) as a router fence. This position is actually a secondary router fence position as I only use if I need the router bit to be more than about 6" from the fence. I've set up my attached router table so that when doing routing requiring less than 6" from the fence, I simply can slide the fence all the way to the right most stop (long cut position). This saves MUCH time. All positions in my experince have been accurate & repeatable.

The most amazing thing I've done with my Incra fence has been to use it to mitre the angles required for beaded inset face frame construction. I simply cut off the bearing from a 45 degree chamfer bit. Knowing the bearing on this bit was 1/2 inch & using another bit's 1/2" bearing, I can exactly center the altered chamfer bit to the fence. The altered bit's cutting edges on the skinny side of the chamfer is exactly 7/16". Knowing these dimensions allows me to do some simple math and I can use the TS-LS, it's exact 1/32" incremental settings, and the Incra Wonder Fence to mill the 45 degree cuts required on both the rails and stiles of beaded face frame. (When I have time, I'll post more details on how I did this.)

Finally, to me one of the best things. I have had wonderful customer service from Incra. (I have no affiliation with them.) My first fence was perfectly straight, initially sat exactly perpendicular to the table saw's table, but had a very slight cup to it's face. The next day after setting up my Incra & discovering this, I was scheduled to go to a wood working show. I simply mentioned this to one of the Incra reps there, and after literally 10 seconds of describing the problem, then handed me an order form for me to write my address down on. They completed the form with the product specifics & I had a new fence in less than a week with no charge. As I add on to shop & table saw, I've called back & asked for misc. bolts & plastic measuring guides... all were sent to me without any cost. I also ordered a fence system & flip-stop for my compound mitre saw. I instead received the shop stop. Again, Incra send me the correct product without charge. I received it in three days, and didn't have to return the shop stop. Benefit to me... I now have two shop stops to use on my wonder fence when needing to do any stopped dados, etc with my router.

To me my Incra TS-LS is the most used in my shop. I have been VERY happy with it.
Jim

[Chris Padilla]

I love my Incra fences (TS and Router Table) but my only complaint is with the rails. I really wish they would include protective endcaps for the rails. I've gouged myself once or twice and my daughter bumped her head on them. My requests for these have fallen on deaf ears at Incra even though I send them a nice email about once a year about it.... :D

[Marc Spagnuolo]

Hey Greg. I actually did contact Incra. In fact, I contacted the marketing person that I was dealing with initially. I explained that I was having issues, outlined them specifically, and let him know that I might need to switch back to the old fence system. I also let him know that the write-up on this unit was fast approaching and I needed to resolve this soon. Unfortunately I received no reply. Now by that time, the setup issues I had were really a moot point, because I realized the Incra was definitely not the fence for me. Calling their tech service was not going to change that.

[J. Greg Jones]

Well, there's your problem there Marc-you tried to contact a marketing person to discuss a tech problem! :)

I had assumed that you had not contacted them at all as someone had asked on your blog if you had called tech support at Incra and you had replied that you had not. Mark (at Incra tech support) would have been a productive experience for you. I've called tech/product support at some companies and I knew that the 10 minutes I had spent with the product was more experience than the person I was speaking with had. That's not the case with Incra support-they know their products inside-out.

[Brian Kerley]

Yeah, I took a good chunk out of my finger on the end rail a few weeks ago. Hurt like the dickens.

[Chris Padilla]

Yeah, I took a good chunk out of my finger on the end rail a few weeks ago. Hurt like the dickens.

Brian, email them about it!! One day, these rails may show up with some end-caps....

We could start a thread...maybe folks at Incra read SMC?? :D

[Homer Faucett]

Marc, I've watched your podcasts before, and have enjoyed your site, but I don't know how to reconcile your statement that you called Incra tech support to try to fix your issues with the fence on this site with your earlier statement on your blog that you "did not call tech service simply because these were fundamental issues with the system. I honestly didn’t think there was a darn thing tech service could do for me." Dec. 22, 2007.

Conversely, I called Incra a few times before purchasing, and I can say that they were very good about putting me through to tech support just to answer my pre-sale questions. I didn't need to call tech support during setup, and have been using the fence for over a year now.

I can say to the original poster that I have had a T-square, Biesemeyer, Unifence, and now the Incra. In my opinion, it's mostly a matter of personal preference, but I really like the repeatability of the Incra, and I don't find it to be weak in any sense. The main drawback is the extra space it requires, and that tawdry anodized gold color. :o

While I respect Marc, I have to respectfully disagree with at least a few of his impressions, as there are some observations about the fence that just aren't accurate. Even with the 30" fence system, you can get much more than 29" of rip capacity to the right of the blade. You can actually get 48" of right blade capacity just by setting the rails further to the right, which is all you should ever need for cutting standard sheet goods. I think the other incorrect observations are covered well by Greg Jones on Marc's site. It sounds like the problems were caused by incorrect setup more than anything. For what it's worth, it didn't take me any longer to set up my Incra than it did to set up the Biesemeyer that I just installed on a friend's Grizzly. Both great fences with different strong suits.

I can totally understand different people having different preferences with a fence. Good luck making your choice.

[howard s hanger]

Before going the Incra route, you should consider the Jointech system. I was at their factory a couple of months ago and they are tooling up for a table saw fence system with the leadscrew in the rails, not the t-configuration. The design is finished but since their original owner died a year ago, the project had been put on hold until the ownership issues had been resolved. It should be on the market pretty soon. I saw the prototype and it is very cool...

[Vic Damone]

Marc, I've watched your podcasts before, and have enjoyed your site, but I don't know how to reconcile your statement that you called Incra tech support to try to fix your issues with the fence on this site with your earlier statement on your blog that you "did not call tech service simply because these were fundamental issues with the system. I honestly didn’t think there was a darn thing tech service could do for me." Dec. 22, 2007.

Conversely, I called Incra a few times before purchasing, and I can say that they were very good about putting me through to tech support just to answer my pre-sale questions. I didn't need to call tech support during setup, and have been using the fence for over a year now.

I can say to the original poster that I have had a T-square, Biesemeyer, Unifence, and now the Incra. In my opinion, it's mostly a matter of personal preference, but I really like the repeatability of the Incra, and I don't find it to be weak in any sense. The main drawback is the extra space it requires, and that tawdry anodized gold color. :o

While I respect Marc, I have to respectfully disagree with at least a few of his impressions, as there are some observations about the fence that just aren't accurate. Even with the 30" fence system, you can get much more than 29" of rip capacity to the right of the blade. You can actually get 48" of right blade capacity just by setting the rails further to the right, which is all you should ever need for cutting standard sheet goods. I think the other incorrect observations are covered well by Greg Jones on Marc's site. It sounds like the problems were caused by incorrect setup more than anything. For what it's worth, it didn't take me any longer to set up my Incra than it did to set up the Biesemeyer that I just installed on a friend's Grizzly. Both great fences with different strong suits.

I can totally understand different people having different preferences with a fence. Good luck making your choice.

+1

Nice post Mr. Faucett.

[Don Bullock]

+1

Nice post Mr. Faucett.

I agree.

Homer was very helpful to me when I was contemplating adding an Incra fence to my table saw. He passed along much of the information he got from the Incra tech. support.

That said, a table saw fence is more a personal choice than perhaps anything else in the shop. I wanted a fence that was as accurate as possible. That is something I never had with my 1979 Craftsman table saw. The fence on that saw was terrible and never accurate no matter how much I tried to get it set up correctly. Since I had not used any of the other fences that many of you use, the Incra looked to be the best choice for me. I'm thrilled with it, but can certainly understand someone like Marc who are used to other fences. No, the Incra isn't for everyone.

[Vic Damone]

Hey Greg. I actually did contact Incra. In fact, I contacted the marketing person that I was dealing with initially. I explained that I was having issues, outlined them specifically, and let him know that I might need to switch back to the old fence system. I also let him know that the write-up on this unit was fast approaching and I needed to resolve this soon. Unfortunately I received no reply. Now by that time, the setup issues I had were really a moot point, because I realized the Incra was definitely not the fence for me. Calling their tech service was not going to change that.

I can only hope you didn't give us your entire review process in this one short paragraph. Making negative comments without your full review available or at least a link seems a bit sketchy for a professional.

Starting with the background of this product you should of realized Incra's, or any product for that matter, success may be in large part due to its similarity to another companies product of similar design. Did you happen mention that company or review its fence?

Since the Incra Fence has been in production for some time, as a reviewer you have the luxury of current user comments. The internet offers many anecdotes by customers who are already using the product. Unlike a tablesaw or a drill press who's function is simple and straight forward and typically produces brand loyalty or I give it four stars because I bought it comments. People are not going to stay quiet about an expensive fence if it's not to their liking. In the case of the Incra an overwhelming amount of positive users should of been a red flag by comparison to the situation you've described here.

As a reviewer your not only reviewing the product but the company, it's staff and support. In a situation when a company fails to communicate it's a reviewers responsibility to escalate the situation within that company not only to resolve the issue but to be able to clearly explain to your readers how the company handled your issue. It's a very important part of the review! So what happened?

"Unfortunately I received no reply. Now by that time, the setup issues I had were really a moot point, because I realized the Incra was definitely not the fence for me. Calling their tech service was not going to change that."

You should reread this very carefully because this is were the cheese slid off the cracker for me.

"the setup issues I had" Did you resolve the issue? If not, how does an issue become moot?
"not the fence for me" Why?
Why were you trying to get technical help from a Marketing person?
Why didn't you receive a reply?
You never talked to technical support?
You failed the product without even using it?
What does a deadline have to do with this?

As a reviewer your obligated to provide answers for questions you've posed. Your experience simply shows me a failure to follow through. You didn't give the manufacture an opportunity to right the situation yet you proceeded to give the Incra fence a negative review simply because you had a deadline and still haven't used the product. As a reader I'd look elsewhere for an assessment of products.

I hope I'm simply over reacting to your paragraph so I welcome you to more clearly explain these points. Your experience with Incra is completely different than mine and a few others here.

Vic

[Bruce Benjamin]

Wow! I don't have the Incra fence and it's unlikely that I'll be buying one in the foreseeable future. But this thread is fascinating and so far, (Knock on wood) it's been one of the most well behaved and professionally worded technical threads I've seen on this forum. Let's hope it remains this way. As I said, I'm not even in the market for a new fence but the descriptions given by Bob and others on this thread make me keep wanting to read it just to learn more about something I don't even need!:rolleyes:

About the only contribution I can make to this thread is regarding the quality and customer service of Incra. I only have a few of their products but they are absolutely top notch. The Jointech fence has been mentioned a few times. I don't have that fence either but I have had quite a bit of experience with their customer service and the quality, (or lack thereof) when I bought my Smart Miter from them. If anyone wants to read the long and detailed review feel free to PM me and I'll send you a link. The short story is that it was not only the most disappointing product of any kind that I've ever purchased but I received the worst customer service I've ever received from their owner, (former owner?) and some of his staff. The product may be different but the it's the same company selling them both. I realize that some people are very happy with Jointech and their products and that's fine. We are all entitled to own opinions. But I want to know not only about the product but about how they handle problems. I know that when I'm making a big purchase I like to hear the bad along with the good in order to make a more informed decision. I've rarely, if ever heard a reasonable negative review of an Incra product or their customer service. I can't say the same about Jointech.

Bruce

[Bill Wyko]

I happen to have 2 incra fences. One for my router and one for my TS. I use an older incra fence made for a router table on my TS. It only goes out 30 inches but I do small stuff. What's nice is I can slide it back and use my PM fence or the Incra. It's my own contraption. I'll try to rember to take pics tonight.

[Glen Blanchard]

snip, snip

As a reviewer your not only ......snip, snip

Hi Vic. I think Marc is trying to get across (if I understand him correctly) that he is not a reviewer of products and that this was not meant as a review of this particular product as much as it was about him relating his impressions of the product. Where does one begin and the other end? I don't know. Would it be easy to construe Marc's write-up as a formal review? Yep. However, I view Marc's narrative as more anecdotal than anything - one man's opinions on a product for which the testing standards employed were his own, for his own purposes, and to his own end.

That being said, I think Incra makes great products. I owned, used and enjoyed their positioner and fence on my router table until I upgraded to a newer model . The newer model happens to be Jointech's system, which I also love. I have found the products and tech. support for both of these companies to be top notch.

Had I tried the Incra table saw fence, disliked it, decided to return to my previous fence system, and then wrote about my experience on my blog (if I had one) I doubt that it would have even been a blip on the radar. Perhaps Marc's biggest mistake here is underestimating the impact that he has on other woodworkers.

[Marc Spagnuolo]

Just an FYI, I had a very lengthy response explaining things in further detail and I have since removed that post. Since it was in direct response to someone else's post, it was mutually agreed that we would both remove our posts in an effort to keep peace and keep the thread on target. A truce if you will. So the short follow-up post above seems as if it was my only response, and thus might be inadequate in explaining everything.

Glen hit the nail on the head on both accounts. I have never claimed to be a "reviewer" and did underestimate the impact my comments would have on the Incra faithful. And don't get me wrong. I have loved every other Incra product I have ever owned. The fence, however, was simply not a good fit for me.

I have had plenty of bad experiences with tools and accessories. And I am not the type of person to use my blog or show as a platform for "bashing" a company. But after introducing the fence on the show, I "owed" everyone an explanation for the switch back to the PM fence. So I proceeded to share my experience.

Vic, you asked quite a few questions and I will answer them as best I can.

Why no link? Well, the original post that I responded to had the link in it. And I generally don't directly link to my blog in forums primarily because it is a commercial entity and contains some ads. You can find the review easy enough if you go to the site and search for Incra.

So, what's my review process? I have no particular process. I use the tool. I either like it or I don't. There is no comparative analysis, no benchmarks, and no scientific approach. Any of my comments are simply Marc's opinion based on Marc's experience. And any time I make an official post concerning a product, I always try to remind folks where I'm coming from in order to avoid situations just like this.

Now I am sorry about your cheese. But I will try to explain this further. I was dealing with a marketing person simply because that was my "contact". Typically, as "the wood whisperer" I do business with the marketing department. So when I have issues, I like to contact them directly so they can decide how they want to handle the situation. Mind you, I had the fence set up by this time and it was certainly serviceable. I used it on two separate projects over the course of a couple weeks as I waited to hear back from them. During that time, I came to realize that many things I didn't like about the Incra system had nothing to do with my initial setup woes. There were things about the system that just did not gel with my personal work flow and work habits. I believe these are the same things that cause people to say, "great fence, but not for everyone".

The deal killers for me were the limited rip capacity, tightening an additional knob, and a lack of faith in the parallel setting. Allow me to elaborate. I realize the rip capacity can be increased by moving the bridge. But I simply don't want to go through a two step process when I move my fence out wide. Then another two step process going back for a narrow rip. That just doesn't gel with the way I work. Same goes for having to tighten down two things every time I set the fence. And the lack of faith thing just comes down to my initial issues with the fence. I was never able to build up confidence that the fence was dead on parallel each time I locked it down. Even if it was, I still had a lack of faith in it. This is sort of an intangible, but it was part of the story nonetheless. So combined together, these factors made my initial setup woes moot.

Clearly, this was not the fence for me. And the few remaining issues I had were things the best tech service rep in the world would not be able to fix. I suppose if I really valued the micro-adjustment capabilities, I might have learned to live with the other things. But I quickly realized that I didn't give two hoots about micro-adjustments on my tablesaw fence.

You know, I have only posted two tool impressions and they were both negative. And both were questioned heavily by fans of the products. In both cases, I made the mistake of mentioning the product in the show simply because I was so excited about it. Given the fact that my show is almost real-time, my excitement about a new tool usually finds its way into a video. And I get excited about tools pretty easily, just like everyone else. So occasionally I say, "check out this cool thing I just got!!!". Obviously I have learned my lesson as far as that goes.....

So, hopefully that answers everyone's questions. I don't expect or even want you to agree with me. Everybody has different tastes and what speeds things up in your shop may slow them down in mine. If we all like the same products, it would be a pretty boring market.

Sheesh! I thought Festool had a fanatical following!------->(my attempt at humor)

[Leigh Betsch]

Thanks Marc, you didn't like it means, you just didn't like it. You're a stand up guy. And that is from an Incra fan. OK maybe a Wood Whisper fan also.
Norm Who??

[Vic Damone]

Marc, thanks for your response. After I posted I was feeling just a bit remorseful because I realized I wasn't sure what your roll is. Your not a reviewer. In your response you clearly touched on the aspects of this fence that might not appeal to some and that's a good thing.

So, regarding my going on about your reviewing method, or as Rose Anna Danna would say, "never mind". Please accept my apology for my obviously over reacting to your original post.

Now where'd that cheese go...

Vic

[Dave MacArthur]

Well, THAT ended better than I expected! Now I don't have to make my long post about the differences between publicly funded governmental review/oversight agencies, and one guy stating his opinion while he goes about his business and the 3000 other things he has to think about that day.
My only remaining worry is that repercussions like this will silence one of the few stand-up guys whose opinions I like to hear, and force him to begin filtering everything he says through lawyers, marketers, PR folks, and corporate-drone translators. Unless we want everyone to be a politician, we shouldn't be so quick to get a rope...

Good thread though, and I'm AMAZED at Bob Feeser's writing stamina! I only got to try an Incra fence once, for just 15 min or so, and had no instruction... to be truthful, I was like a dog looking at a nuclear bomb. I WANTED to use it and like it, but I was afraid to turn anything for fear of un-doing some delicate precision setting. I much preferred the one-lever biesmeyer, due purely to my 100% ignorance and the intimidating look of all that machined aluminum! My 2nd knowledge of the fence was from Marc's initial podcast on theWoodWhisperer, when it suddenly showed up on his PM! I don't mind telling you, I was disappointed--I almost felt betrayed to see it mounted in place of the trusty old-faithful PM fence. Imagine my joy and sense of redemption when, some weeks later upon checking in on theWoodWhisperer, I found the hellish brain-teaser incra fence removed, and Ol' Yeller back sitting on the porch of Marc's saw!

I don't mind telling you that before I went to bed, I went out to the garage and slid my biesmeyer fence around on my PM66 a few times, reaching out and slapping that lever down as the fence glided past me--Yah!--cleanly locking the fence down, sometimes even reaching around my back while standing on one foot. I felt good about life, and slept well that night...

And now, this thread--I have finally succumbed to the enthusiasm of the those more knowledgeable than me, and am willing to re-open my mind and give the fence a fair try, with a printout of this thread in hand, when next we confront each other.

; sleep well!

[Bob Feeser]

Here is a copy and paste of my review on Amazon of the Incra TSIII-32. Amazon chose it as a featured review, and one of the most helpful, and so did so many other Amazon customers who gave it a most helpful vote.

I also want to say that of those who reviewed this fence, there were thirteen 5 star reviews, and one 4 star who admitted he was "fuzzy" and one 1 star review which was due to shipping problems, and had nothing to do with the fence. So when it comes to this fence, people who own it, and understand how it works, when reviewing the fence, and not the shipping, give it 5 stars 92% of the time, and the one detractor give it 4 stars. You have heard from others in SMC who own the fence, and have provided their opinions of what they think of it. I think it is time for others who own it to let their voices be heard. I don't want confusion and misunderstanding to arise about this fence, and cause people to not enjoy what it does to take your wood working skills, procedures, and results to a higher level with less effort, less waste, and more pride in the product it automatically produces. To truly know it is to love it. I want to repeat that I also own, the Accu-Fence that is a Beis clone, that came with my PM66 on my other saw, and love that one as well. The Incra isn't the only good fence out there, but it is a re-design, a breakthrough in fence design, that solves a lot of problems, inherent in the T-Square system. The only disadvantage is the center post extends out to the right of the table, which is only a factor when you are making really large cuts, and don't have "any" space to the right of the saw. It only needs additional space when you are making very large cuts. So if you do not have 3 or 4 feet available on the right side of your saw for the occassional large cut, as in sheet goods, then this fence is not for you. For me I would be re-arranging my shop to make the space available, that is how good this fence is. I appreciate the fact that we live in a free society, and everyone has a right to voice their opinion. That way others can judge for themselves, and make a determination. This is not a personal attack, or a defense about anyone's opinions, just a statement about a fence. I will repeat that I like Marc, I really enjoy going to his site, watching his videos, loving the comradery with the PM equipment, (even though I only have 3 pieces) and don't want to lose that. I consider him a friend.

Here is my review on Amazon

82 of 83 people found the following review helpful:
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-5-0._V47081849_.gif Fence Talk- Why is the Incra better?, May 9, 2003
By Bob Feeser (http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A14JBDSWKPKTZA/ref=cm_cr_dp_pdp)(Springfield, PA USA) - See all my reviews (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A14JBDSWKPKTZA/ref=cm_cr_dp_auth_rev?ie=UTF8&sort%5Fby=MostRecentReview)
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/communities/reputation/c7y_badge_tr_5._V47082063_.gif (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=cm_rn_bdg_help?ie=UTF8&nodeId=14279681&pop-up=1#TR) http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/communities/reputation/c7y_badge_rn_1._V47060296_.gif (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=cm_rn_bdg_help?ie=UTF8&nodeId=14279681&pop-up=1#RN)
If you were designing a fence, think about the problem. You have a hand crank on the end close to you, that not only moves the fence, but tells you with precision where the fence distance is from the blade. Like most fences the cranking goes on close to you, and the tail at the other end drags behind, which results in a less than perfect angle, and measurement to the blade. The Beisemeyer fence did a good job, but only gurantees to within 1/64" accuracy. So now we move onto the logic behind the Incra TSIII-32. By positioning the crank in the center, instead of the edge, you eliminate the drag on the other end. Technically you still could get some uneven drag on either end. So what Incra did was create a large approxiamately 4 or 5 inch wide center guide, which keeps it square to the blade, and has a saw tooth pattern every 32nd of an inch, so when you tighten down the clamp, it falls into one of the teeth, so you get a precise measurement every time. Not only is it precise, but it is repeatably precise if you want to go back to that measurement. You may say, but what if the setting I want is not in 32nd of an inch increment? That is where the micro adjusting knob comes in. You can fine adjust, accurately to within .001 of an inch any setting in between. Incra guarantees accuracy to within .002 of an inch on the gross settings, the fine adjustment knob goes to .001. Phew. After you grow accustomed to dialing in a setting, in a matter of seconds, and getting a perfect cut, their is no going back. I used to take a tape measure and eyeball a setting from my old fence. The little tab on the tape measure is always loose. Even when measuring, getting a setting that is accurate to the edge of the teeth, which are wider than the blade body, instead of to the edge of the blade, is another illusion. Anyhow, net result-cut and measure, readjust, and cut and measure, until it is right. Zero repeatability, instead of zero repeatability error. No comparison. Less time, total accuracy, that is instantly repeatable at any future time. You see when you dial in a setting, it drops into one of those 1/32" teeth. Exactly the same? Ok, to within .002"
Some set up tips: After speaking to the factory rep from Incra, who was super helpful, I learned that you can install this fence system, starting at the left edge of your table saw top, instead of well beyond it, like shown in the picture. That way you get ripping capabilities of 49 or 50 inches, which covers any needs you may have for ripping an 8 foot sheet of plywood. With that much width, a set of legs is advisable. Woodpecker(s).com has a custom set for the incra cheap.
What about the top. This fence system does not come with the built in router tops as shown in the picture. Buying some MDF at the local home center is all you need to do. The instructions that come with the fence, explain how to install it.
Incorporating a router table to the left of the saw, and or one to the right is a good idea. Incra provides you with an auto-centering tape for routers as one of the tape measuring rules built into the fence. (Their are 4 tape-rule slots with 3 tapes provided. That way you can dedicate a tape for your regular blades, and one for a dado blade for example) Back to the routers. By using the Incra fence system mounted on your table saw, as a routing platform, you get the advantage of the super exacting TS3 fence as a foundation for your routing. You can buy the optional Wonder fence for routing from Incra, or make a split fence on your own. The T-slots on the fence face makes this possible. Additionally, Incra also sells T-Tracks now, which have measuring rules built into them. Makes you want to design your own custom set up. This makes the exactness of the TS3 usable in the routing format. For example: Making raised panels, requires multiple passes. You could set the fence for each pass, and end up with a final pass that would be exactly the same on all pieces. (To within .002" Phew) And you could come back to those exact settings if you accidentally needend another panel. I can understand what they mean by the "Incra"mental system.
So onto the standard review format. This thing is tops. It is clearly the finest, most accurate fence system available on the market today. Buy it at Amazon, and save the money. :-)
The reason why the 32" standard set up is popular, is because most people don't have an 11 foot area to cover the width of the set up. The 32 comes with 72" rails, and you can decide to install the way the picture shows, giving you only the 72 inch area, plus whatever the center guide extends during use. If you decide to go with the 92" rails available from Incra, or install the 72s at left table edge, then you will need the additional space.
If you are interested in ripping your wood and going directly to glue up, get this fence, and use it with a good blade. Normally we rip the material, leaving it an 1/8" oversize, and then joint it to a smooth edge. With this setup, you can go from saw to glue up station. No slight off angles leaving saw marks in the work, or inaccurate sizing. What a time saver. Hey it is some more money, but in the long run it will pay for itself.
I spent a lot of time looking into fences, and I hope this review helps.

[Chris Padilla]

Well handled, Folks! I kept looking for a reason to use my "SUPER-MOD-MAN" power recently bestowed upon me (more like shackled! ;) :D ) but y'all self-poiliced yourselves and handled everything very nicely. Bravo! This thread should be a model on how to discuss dissenting/opposite views on things!

[Bill Lantry]

Marc,

I've resisted saying anything, and have nothing to say about the fence itself (which I have and love, btw). But I am troubled by a couple other aspects. First, it's clear that we're relearning what every writer needs to learn and relearn with each piece, that we need "to write modestly, and with exactness." It's a good reminder for all of us.

I guess what bugs me most is the defense: "I'm just a guy, what do I know, I'm not doing reviews here, etc." That argument seems disingenuous at best. You're not keeping a private diary, you want people to read what you write, listen to what you have to say, and respect your words based on your knowledge. Why else do a public website and do all the 'casting? In other words, in some ways you've made yourself a public writer, implying everything that comes with that.

I personally think what you're doing is very cool, and I don't think you should be discouraged by all this, but I'm not sure the "I'm just a humble doofus" defense really flies... ;););)

Thanks,

Bill

[Marc Spagnuolo]

First of all, I am a humble doofus. Just ask my wife.

Interesting take Bill. What would you suggest I do then when it comes to discussing my opinion on a tool? Do I have to do a month's worth of research and tests before stating my opinion and relaying my experiences? Unfortunately, I don't have the time or resources to do a "magazine-style" review and as a result, I try to make sure people take my comments for what they are: my personal experience and opinion. I do not feel that one man's opinion in a blog post should be held up to the same standards as Joe Wood Magazine's Incra Tool Review.

If you honestly think that my whole defense boils down to the "humble doofus" cop out, I think you missed the point Bill. Now if I was saying, "Don't listen to me, I'm just an idiot.", then I could see your point. If I agreed that everything I stated in my write-up was wrong and retracted my words, I might agree with you. But that's not at all what I'm saying. My point, rather, is that my discussion of tools may not be completely fair, balanced, or free from error. My words are skewed by my personal opinions. The usefulness of the tool is determined by how well it gels with MY workflow (not a generic workflow). And if I do make a mistake, I will clarify it in my post as I have done in the past. And if people disagree with my viewpoint, it is usually discussed immediately in the comments section of the post.

So you might be wondering at this point, "What is the value of this tool discussion in the first place?". Many folks who watch my show and read my posts feel that they know me pretty well. They see how I work and they are able to compare and contrast my work methods with theirs. And if they happen to work the way I do, use the same tools I do, or build the same furniture I do, there is inherent value in reading my opinions and experiences with a particular tool. At that point, it's less of a review and more like the endorsement (or lack thereof) from a trusted friend.

You know, its a little unnerving to have to defend myself like this. I haven't been analyzed this thoroughly since my last physical. And given my recent post called, "My Review of Tool Reviews", I find the whole thing a little ironic. In that article, I stressed the importance of taking all reviews (from individuals and magazines) with a grain of salt. I even outlined a few examples where similar tests were done with completely different results. I was not trying to discredit the magazines by any means, I was just pointing out that you can get drastically different test results, depending on who designs and performs the tests. And try as you might, you can't remove the x-factor (opinion, previous experiences, rumors, etc).

Well, with any luck I can now sit back and read some interesting discussion about Incra's fence and not a discussion about my character, intelligence, or honesty.

[Charles Green]

Just wanted to comment on the Incra fence amidst all of the other discussion.

I have the TS 32 and love it. If you are willing to do the two step process to move the fence everytime and have the room to the right of the saw it is great. I don't care as much about the microadjust as I do the repeatibility. I love being able to cut as I go and record measurements and repeat those weeks later.

As for a bigger rip capacity I've never needed it. If I need full sheets of plywood I use my ez smart to get them to tablesaw size anyway. I find it to be a bit of a pain to move around the full sheets onto the saw.

I had a Biesemeyer before the Incra and liked it but my router table Incra fence made me make the switch. I saw what it was capable of and wanted it anywhere I could have it.

As for Mark, he is my internet hero even if he doesn't like my fence. I think he wrote a fair evaluation of the fence. I was surprised to read it originally but it didn't make my fence any less special to me. I don't know of a way for him to have wrote his "non review" better. If I had been a professional woodworker for years using a biesemeyer style fence I wouldn't like change either.

I think this is one of those issues that can't have a true conclusion on which is best because they are both perfect at what they do. They get you there a little differently but are more than okay. Similar to the Dowelmax vs. Domino or festool vs. ez smart where everyone gets defensive over their particular tool.

So in closing go with the Incra as it is the best. :D:D

[Bill Lantry]

Dear Marc,

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to stir the hornet's nest, and I know the whole thing has turned into an unexpectedly sticky wicket. That's why I refrained from posting yesterday. And I had no intention of questioning your character or intelligence or honesty. Quite the contrary, I think what you're doing is very cool, and I follow your 'casts when I can. In fact, my delay gave me time to read your review of reviews piece, which I found of substantial interest.

Similar things have happened to me, in even more bizarre ways. A couple years ago, I went on a job interview. The committee was ready for me, loaded for bear. One of them had a print out of something I wrote on the equivalent of a blog many years ago. The question began with "In November of 1997, you wrote '...xyz...'. You were wrong about what would happen five years hence. Can you explain why you were wrong, and what that says about your thought process?"

I kid you not! A fun time was had by all over that one! ;)

By the way, I think we're all humble doofii in the eyes of our wives! I know I am... ;)

Best of luck,

Bill

[Chris Padilla]

By the way, I think we're all humble doofii in the eyes of our wives! I know I am... ;)

Best of luck,

Bill

And they still love us and let us buy toys, bless their hearts! :D

[Wayne Cannon]

You can call me a detractor. I have the Incra fence. It does everything they claim it does, but it's just inefficient at doing the things I do most frequently.

I rarely need repeatable re-settability to a given setting, for which the Incra is superb.

The Incra fence is not that rigid. It has a fair amount of play at the ends and moves slightly, but visibly, when pressure is applied, as when guiding a large sheet of plywood with pressure against its infeed end. Mine screws solidly into tee-nuts in my extension table. It's very rigid at its center -- adjacent to the blade -- but it's slight movement is enough to cause the blade to rub against the surface of the cut. Biesemeyer fences move slightly, too, at the far end (though less than the Incra), but you rarely apply pressure at the outfeed end of a fence.

Everyone has mentioned the Incra's overhang, which is significant. Primarily, it frequently interferes with stacking components on the extension table.

The Incra takes longer to set up for typical cuts. It would probably be similar, except that the gauge and lock are not right in front of you, but rather half-way across the table. A plus -- the Incra is set at the middle, adjacent to the blade, so it isn't necessary to assure that the "T" of a Biesemeyer is against the rail so it doesn't move when clamped.

[J. Greg Jones]

You can call me a detractor. I have the Incra fence. It does everything they claim it does, but it's just inefficient at doing the things I do most frequently.

I rarely need repeatable re-settability to a given setting, for which the Incra is superb.

The Incra fence is not that rigid. It has a fair amount of play at the ends and moves slightly, but visibly, when pressure is applied, as when guiding a large sheet of plywood with pressure against its infeed end. Mine screws solidly into tee-nuts in my extension table. It's very rigid at its center -- adjacent to the blade -- but it's slight movement is enough to cause the blade to rub against the surface of the cut. Biesemeyer fences move slightly, too, at the far end (though less than the Incra), but you rarely apply pressure at the outfeed end of a fence.

Everyone has mentioned the Incra's overhang, which is significant. Primarily, it frequently interferes with stacking components on the extension table.

The Incra takes longer to set up for typical cuts. It would probably be similar, except that the gauge and lock are not right in front of you, but rather half-way across the table. A plus -- the Incra is set at the middle, adjacent to the blade, so it isn't necessary to assure that the "T" of a Biesemeyer is against the rail so it doesn't move when clamped.

Wayne, which Incra fence are/were you using on your saw? I'm having a hard time trying to visualize what your setup is as it sounds like you are/were using a router fence on your saw. My Incra LS router table fence does attach to the table with t-nuts, but nothing on my LS-III table saw fence attaches to the extension table. I can see where an Incra router table fence could flex with a large sheet of ply pressed against it as the fence is unsupported at the ends. However, the table saw fence is supported at each end and can be locked to the rail in the front (and the rear too for that matter, if the user wanted to take the time and trouble to do that).

[Homer Faucett]

Wayne, which Incra fence are/were you using on your saw? I'm having a hard time trying to visualize what your setup is as it sounds like you are/were using a router fence on your saw. My Incra LS router table fence does attach to the table with t-nuts, but nothing on my LS-III table saw fence attaches to the extension table. I can see where an Incra router table fence could flex with a large sheet of ply pressed against it as the fence is unsupported at the ends. However, the table saw fence is supported at each end and can be locked to the rail in the front (and the rear too for that matter, if the user wanted to take the time and trouble to do that).

I have to admit this was a concern of mine when I bought this fence--that it would flex when large sheet goods were used. However, I have not found this to be true at all, even when the front rail lock is not used. Wayne, if you are having problems with the front end of the fence moving, that should be the easiest thing in the world to fix on the Incra fence.

Do you see the little lock down mechanism on the front of the fence? after locking in your distance on the middle of the bridge, flip that lock down mechanism on the front of the fence, and that will lock the front of the fence to your front rail, eliminating any deflection on the front of the fence. I honestly do not believe I have ever used that front lock down mechanism, though.

On the other hand, if it was necessary to use both the front and back lock down mechanisms, that would be an absolute pain, and I'm glad it is not necessary in my case.

[Doug Shepard]

Couple of questions here. I've been reading this thread with some interest. I'm still using the factory Accufence on my PM66 and while good, I'm all for increasing accuracy and repeatability that is a bit lacking on the Accufence. I've got an Incra router fence so I'm familiar with the benefits of the system but looking at Woodpeckers info I've got mixed impressions whether switching to an Incra TS fence would work well for me. The biggest concern is that RH clearance required for space but lets assume I can position the saw somewhere during use to get past that issue.
To some degree it appears to me that using the saw for crosscutting is somewhat diminished or at least made less convenient than simply lifting off the Accufence. Due to space restrictions I sold off my CMS last year so dont have a separate crosscut station. What's involved in removing everything that protrudes above the table and how long does it take? Same question on putting it back on, and does it require tedious resetup or recalibration steps?
Also - does anyone have one on a PM66 that also has one of the HTC folding roller outfeed tables attached? Or know if it's incompatible with the HTC roller table?

[Homer Faucett]

Couple of questions here. I've been reading this thread with some interest. I'm still using the factory Accufence on my PM66 and while good, I'm all for increasing accuracy and repeatability that is a bit lacking on the Accufence. I've got an Incra router fence so I'm familiar with the benefits of the system but looking at Woodpeckers info I've got mixed impressions whether switching to an Incra TS fence would work well for me. The biggest concern is that RH clearance required for space but lets assume I can position the saw somewhere during use to get past that issue.
To some degree it appears to me that using the saw for crosscutting is somewhat diminished or at least made less convenient than simply lifting off the Accufence. Due to space restrictions I sold off my CMS last year so dont have a separate crosscut station. What's involved in removing everything that protrudes above the table and how long does it take? Same question on putting it back on, and does it require tedious resetup or recalibration steps?
Also - does anyone have one on a PM66 that also has one of the HTC folding roller outfeed tables attached? Or know if it's incompatible with the HTC roller table?

Taking off the fence will not be quite as convenient as taking off your Accufence fence. What is involved is loosening the "bridge" and sliding it off the end of the rails. It is almost identical to the steps you would take to make a cut that is more than 32", except that you would simply take the bridge entirely off. If you have a stop set up on your rails to allow quick swapping between 32" and 32"+ cuts, you would have to remove that, too (it's a single hex bolt).

Putting it back on and "recalibrating" is easy, IMHO. Set the fence marker to 0", slide the bridge back on until the fence kisses the blade, and lock the bridge down. You are now recalibrated. I haven't timed myself on moving the bridge, but I can't imagine it takes more than a few minutes (like about 3 or less minutes).

[J. Greg Jones]

Is the Incra less convenient to remove than a t-square fence? Yes, but marginally so. There are 4 knobs to loosen, 2 front and 2 rear, that are loosened and the entire fence lifts off the table. There is no re-calibration needed to reattach the fence as it snugs up to the 2 stops installed in the face of the front and rear rail. Here's a picture of the TS Ultra model that shows the front knobs and stop. I have no idea about the compatibility of the roller outfeed table.

http://www.incra.com/images/tsf_lststablesaw_detail2_zoom.jpg

[Glen Blanchard]

I'm all for increasing accuracy and repeatability that is a bit lacking on the Accufence.

Hi Doug. I also like the accuracy and the repeatability of the Incra and Jointech fences. I don't have any real estate to the right of my table saw, so I have never made the purchase (although I have owned both systems for the router table, and I think they are great!). I have added the Wixey DRO to my existing Bies-style fence and I now have the accuracy and repeatability thing down. I am still envious of the micro-adjusting that the Incra/Jointech can do however.

[Doug Shepard]

Homer/Greg - Thanks for the feedback.
Here's a couple pics with the HTC roller table. Dont have one handy from the side view with the table flipped up but how much clearance is required at the back of the Incra rails?
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=17648&d=1111866032
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=17645&d=1111865893

[Doug Shepard]

... I have added the Wixey DRO to my existing Bies-style fence and I now have the accuracy and repeatability thing down. I am still envious of the micro-adjusting that the Incra/Jointech can do however.

Yeah - I picked that up on that great Woodcraft sale recently but it's still in the box pending warmer weather in the shop to install it plus getting my workbench project done. I'm probably going to stick with that plan mostly for the side clearance issue, but I'm real tempted by the Incra setup instead if it's not a problem with the HTC rollers.

[Will Blick]

>Do I have to do a month's worth of research and tests before stating my opinion and relaying my experiences?


Yeah, really.... I have always been amazed on all forums, or internet related communications, whereas someone takes their valuable time, to share their experiences with a product or a company, and instead of being appreciated for such, they are badgered. As previous poster mentioned - just like in life, you have to consider the source, other comments on the same product, the reviewers background, his application, etc. and draw your own conclusions.

That being said, the internet is loaded with covert marketing agents who have realized the value of unbiased comments about products from their "supposed" peers. OTOH, a planted negative review can be equally effective, except in the case where the product is so commonplace, that neg. comment is overwhelmed by positive comments. A good example is the Dowelmax... about its only negative comment has been its price.... which IMO is not negative, but rather an opinion of the products value, or the reviewers budget.

Then, of course, there is the brand loyalists...once they buy a particular brand, they are set to defend it to till death do us part. These type are often hard to detect, as often their intentions are good....

As for the Incra fence..... I have two of them, and also have used many of the big name fences. Clearly both have advantages / disadvantages, IMO. If you have no need for highly precision cuts, or repeatability, the Incra type fences makes little sense IMO. OTOH, if you want very accurate cutting and are willing to live with real estate the contraption eats up, then its a very unique product. If I was ripping big sheets on a regular basis, I would not want an Incra fence...although it would suffice, IMO, not the right best fit. I cut down large sheets with a circular saw first, and use the TS for more precise cuts. My body has become too fragile to handle large sheets on the TS, and I often work by myself making it more difficult. So for me, the Incra works well for my current style.


As for Incras tech support. I have had both great and bad experiences with them. At times, they react quickly and offer great advise / follow-up. Other times, it's hard to get a return call / email from them... I had to badger them many times to resolve a few issues. So like many USA companies today, it can be hit or miss with getting help. Its frustrating, but IMO, its commonplace today with most USA companies who are being squeezed with tight budgets, due to fierce competition from overseas products.

[Bob Feeser]

Is the Incra less convenient to remove than a t-square fence? Yes, but marginally so. There are 4 knobs to loosen, 2 front and 2 rear, that are loosened and the entire fence lifts off the table. There is no re-calibration needed to reattach the fence as it snugs up to the 2 stops installed in the face of the front and rear rail. Here's a picture of the TS Ultra model that shows the front knobs and stop. I have no idea about the compatibility of the roller outfeed table.


Greg has said it all.

[Ron Dunn]

Do I have to do a month's worth of research and tests before stating my opinion and relaying my experiences?

Based on an earlier comment in this thread, I think you're positioning your web site as a major source of income. That means you're either advertising/shilling tools, or actually reviewing them.

If you're going to review tools, then I think you owe it to your own credibility to seriously evaluate, think, consult, and possibly evaluate again.

Of course, you could always take a different approach and become the "first five minutes" reviewer. That is, the guy who describes what it is like to take any tool out of the box and spend five minutes using it without actually learning how the tool is supposed to work.

[just for the record, I don't own any Incra products, and I don't review anything]

[Will Blick]

> Based on an earlier comment in this thread, I think you're positioning your web site as a major source of income.

Not speaking for Marc, but more often than not for small web site owners....


> web site as a major source of income ...

should read.....

enough income to pay for the cost to maintain the web site....


Major difference.....

Even this SMC site with 20k+ members, struggles to stay out of the red.... it's usually a battle for most web sites to break-even.

Often our view of web site income, or value, gets tainted when we hear the value of Facebook.com at $15B, when it has not made a penny, and has not clear game plan to profitability. That's the remaining spoils of those who conquered Wall Street during the dot.com boom in the late 90's...

[matt dumney]

I just wanted to say thank you for all of the great information found in this thread. I been following this thread and I must say I've appreciated the opinions on Incra fence. I've been toying around with idea of forking over the cash and the information provided certainly has answered most if not all of my questions. Thanks all!

And yes...I think some people have been too critical of Marc's review. Again...everyone's opinion was equally great and beneficial to me as a beginner woodworker.

[Dave MacArthur]

Folks...let's remember this is a forum for woodworkers, not lawyers. This bogusly elevated standard of evidence before you're allowed to express an opinion is just silly.

[matt dumney]

Having a monetized website does not "mean" either advertising OR reviewing. And "review" does not have to mean a NASA study with control groups and paid testers... this isn't Consumer Reports magazine, it's a blog.

Since when has it become wrong for a man to state an opinion based just on whatever experience he happens to have, especially if he is careful to explain that experience? Since when must 1000 hours be logged on each tool, before your opinion is valid? Since when is an opinion on a tool valid only if it agrees with yours? Since when does a review have to result in a glowing positive recommendation, or it's wrong? Since when must every perceived flaw be worked through customer service and tech support before you're allowed to dislike it?

The guy didn't like the incra fence as good as he liked his Accufence--get over it. He doesn't have any responsibility to establish a research foundation before he says "here's my experience, it didn't work for me", just because he happens to have a website.

Sorry for getting verbose, but this type of badgering and bogus-ly elevated standard of evidence for comment, just sits wrong with me, and more the type of thing I'd expect on a forum for lawyers than one for woodworkers.



Well said!

[Ron Dunn]

The original post in which Marc referred to money appears to have been deleted. That makes it difficult to demonstrate the context in which my post was made ... but my recollection was that he was complaining about criticism because it might affect his credibility, and therefore the value of his site.

I'm happy to be corrected on that recollection.

[Al Garay]

INCRA is an awesome company. In my experience, they go out of their way in providing pre-sales technical information. Marc, sounds like a very young person, admitting that you are no expert gives clarity to the value of your opinion.

By the way, you want to earn respect, become a MEMBER. It only costs $6 dollars and goes a long way to keep this valuable resource alive.

[Homer Faucett]

Homer/Greg - Thanks for the feedback.
Here's a couple pics with the HTC roller table. Dont have one handy from the side view with the table flipped up but how much clearance is required at the back of the Incra rails?
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=17648&d=1111866032
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=17645&d=1111865893

Doug, I wasn't intentionally ducking your original question, but I just don't have any experience with the HTC roller table. I don't see any reason why it would not work, as the table does not appear to be attached to the rails themselves. The only issue I can see is that you probably could not have the bridge located on the left side of the table saw when the roller outfeed table is flipped up (the little thumbscrews shown in the earlier picture would probably be in the way). I dont imagine this would be an issue, though, considering that you would likely be using a router table on the right side of the table saw in this configuration.

For the record, I was just out in the shop using the table saw. While there, I did push against the infeed portion of the fence to see if it would move. To be fair, it moved about 1/64 inch or so when I pushed on it with a fair amount of force. Simply turning the front lockdown (took 5 seconds, literally) completely eliminated this movement. I will agree that locking down the Bies fence is marginally more simple than locking down the Incra. However, the amount of time I spent fiddling with the Bies fence to get it set at an "exact" size was the trade-off in time.

Aside from the one notable drawback to the Incra--the extra space required to the right of the table--I really think that the question comes down to preference. I cut plenty of sheet goods on my Incra, and don't have problems with it. I would probably have been more than happy with a Bies style fence if I had never had an Incra. Now that I have an Incra, I won't be going back . . . but that's purely preference.

[Wayne Cannon]

My Incra fence IS almost identical to their router fence. I think the mechanism behind the fence is the same and only the fence extrusion itself is different (e.g., one piece and no dust extraction port). Looking at current photos on the Web, the design has definitely changed in the almost ten years since I got mine.

[Peter M. Spirito]

It seems to me if you already have a decent fence on the TS and you do not have a planer, then you need a planer a lot more than fancy dandy fence. http://www.peterspirito.com/planer.htm

[Eric Yuan]

I'm considering the Incra TS fence and wondering if I need to spend another $249 on the Wonderfence to use it on my router. Or can I just add two generic aluminum extrusions onto the face of the Incra Fence and lose the dust extraction ability. Trying to save a bit of money if its not necessary.

[Narayan Nayar]

A few thoughts on the Incra (I have a TS-LS but have used the standard Bies fence):

-Shop space is precious to me. I don't have a lot of it. That said, I still have an Incra with long rails (cut down to about 70"), which allows me to rip about 44". I also have a router table in my TS extension, and I use the Incra for that.

-You can easily cut down the time it takes to "lock down the front" by substituting the knob with a cam lever and 1/4" threaded bolt. That said--I could count on one hand the total # of times I've locked the front down.

-I have a bad back and manhandling full sheets of 3/4" plywood is not a risk I take. I cut those down with a circular saw. So a large majority of cuts on the incra are below 18", and a majority of those probably 6-12 inches. I do cut down sheets of of Baltic Birch on the TS because those I can handle pretty easily. But more and more of my work involves real wood instead of sheet goods, so like I said--most of the cuts are smaller. So lockdown isn't an issue and the main reason I love the Incra is that I don't have to fuss with it to make sure that 4.75" is 4.75", even if I've moved the saw, moved the fence, moved the rails, whatever. I could care less about the 1/1000 of an inch spiel. I like the repeatability more than anything.

-The wonderfence with the Incra easily magnifies its usefulness exponentially, in my opinion. I don't think, Eric, that the Wonderfence is something to skip. It's really well made, has a smart microadjust mechanism, and don't underestimate dust collection.

In short, I like my Incra. It's a piece of equipment I can trust unconditionally and which I feel makes me more efficient and improves the quality of my work. Can't ask for much more than that from a tool. Your mileage may vary.

[Matt Moore]

I love my Incra fences (TS and Router Table) but my only complaint is with the rails. I really wish they would include protective endcaps for the rails. I've gouged myself once or twice and my daughter bumped her head on them. My requests for these have fallen on deaf ears at Incra even though I send them a nice email about once a year about it.... :D

I had the same issue. I used some stiff 1/2" foam and duct tape and made some soft caps. I did this on my jointer as well. The kids have bumped the caps I made a few times and they just bounce off and keep going.

I agree though that Incra should fix this issue although, even with caps, hitting it would be painful but would likely not make a cut.

[Rich Fay]

Marc, one of the things I appreciate the most with regard to your comments is the honest un-paid approach you take. For the most part, I look at reviews as a biased, bought and paid for commentary. They typically come from people in a lab who run tests on tools which I have to believe are handpicked by the manufacturer. I can't tell you how many times I've purchased a product off the shelf based upon a review and had found myself wondering "how in the world did this thing pass the test?" Please, Please, Please do not change your reviewing practice. I found your post to be very open and useful. If I'm looking for Lab tests I'll go to everyone else. You described your specific problems and the reasons why it didn't work for you in the real world. That to me is far more useful. If anyone disagrees, well you just can't please everyone.

There are so many tools on the market which do essentially the same thing. Everyone's building a so called better mousetrap and they all have one thing in common, they remove dollars from my wallet. I love my incra 5000 sled. It's deadly accurate and infinitely repeatable. I couldn't imagine a better gauge, but I'm ready to remove the board and use it as a straight miter gauge. In the shop, it's too heavy and awkward to move around and store. I'm always looking for a place to put the thing when it's not in use. Had I only had the benefit of real time comments, I could have purchased the lesser expensive system without the board and had not only the same wonderfully useful tool but the extra bucks for some bubinga or another saw blade as well. Engineers are great theorists and do a fabulous job at designing new and interesting products which all too often leave me scratching my head in wonder. Do I want to spend my time tinkering or cutting? This is all in humor and no slight on engineers but an engineer will choose tinker because the product is cool, it's complicated and of course cutting wood to .0000001 is better than .01. To all those engineers out there, find a way to cut wood and have it remain in shape forever. You'll have my attention and genuine admiration there. (Grin)

Marc, don't curb your initial enthusiasm. That’s not the lesson to learn. It falls under the entertainment category. As a viewer, I can receive excitement vicariously, without the personal expense and the risk is on you. The perfect scenario from my point of view. It also provides balance as to whether the excitement prevails or if the honeymoon ends abruptly. How often does that happen? I hope you will not allow any negative comments to modify the behavior which makes your site an honest, straight forward, entertaining, real man's place to go for information.

Blogs like this one are the go-to places for real information. Your site is one of the only commercial sites which I rate on the same level. I own a matchmaking site (my actual day job) and know very well how much time and effort it takes to operate a site like yours. I don't know how you do it and ever manage to get a project completed, let alone keep your wife. Hmm, maybe I can help there. (just kidding) Keep up the good work and keep on the same path which has made you the success you are today. It works, DON'T fix it.

Rich