shipping issues

[tod evans]

instead of continuing this discussion in another thread i thought i`d start one just for this topic. here`s what i wrote earlier;

"the shipping issue is one that i feel is ripe for discussion; when we shop online or through a catalogue and not locally most of us are gambling that we can save a few bucks, but when problems arise and they do, the issue of transportation is on the table.........if the customer foots the bill he`d have been better off buying locally. but if the reseller foots the bill he`d have been better off not making the sale....so where does this delema leave both parties? "

most folks have the option of driving less than 3-400 miles to pick up a major equipment purchase from a local dealer, or in the case of some european equipment from a trade show. either case you can see what you`re getting before you buy it.......so other than trying to save a buck or two why shop from mail order houses or online? i`m only talking about stationary equipment here, stuff that you hope to only buy once..
tod

[Chuck Saunders]

I shop online because;
1. I can get what I want, not what they have
2. They are open when I am shopping
3. Better prices, I find that locally the big ticket items are rarely on sale
4. I have been burned equally by shipping and local merchants
5. With the inventory taxes my local retailer often doesn't have them in stock and has to order it anyway.

I have only had one problem with major tool shipping. When I bought my Unisaw from Tool Crib of the North (pre Amazon) it arrived freight damaged. I had to re-crate and they picked it up. Immediately they shipped a replacement. The next day the teamsters went on strike for a long time. After a week or two I called. They did offer me the option of driving to <st1:City w:st="on">Milwaukee</st1:City> from <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Kansas City</st1:place></st1:City> and pick it up at the CF depot (crossing the picket line), I declined. They then sent another saw by another carrier and it arrived safe and sound. I agree that someone lost out on this transaction and I am glad it was not me. That is one of the factors in doing business and deciding to enter the mail order game. The ones who do right get glowing recommendations 10yrs after the sale. The others tend not to do so well. Integrity pays well.
Chuck

[Bruce Benjamin]

most folks have the option of driving less than 3-400 miles to pick up a major equipment purchase from a local dealer, or in the case of some european equipment from a trade show. either case you can see what you`re getting before you buy it.......so other than trying to save a buck or two why shop from mail order houses or online? i`m only talking about stationary equipment here, stuff that you hope to only buy once..
tod

I don't know about, "Most folks", but the nearest city to me that will
have a reasonable selection of major power tools is about 2 1/2 hours
from me. Most vehicles that are capable of hauling a tool that weighs
between 300 and 1000 pounds or more isn't going to be getting very
good gas mileage. These days with gas prices in my area over $3.30
per gallon that adds up to a lot more than just, "A buck or two". Driving
to pick up a Rikon 18" bandsaw would cost me over $100 in gas, (plus
the cost of drive-thru food ;) ) whereas Woodcraft only charges $35
to ship it. For a poor, cheap guy like me that plays into the equation.
Also, I don't have to spend most of a day driving.

I guess that only works for me if I already know exactly what I want.
When I bought my TS I had to drive even farther but I saved a bunch
in shipping charges and I got to make my final decision in person.
If I bought one of those huge combo machines I don't think it would
fit in the back of my Suburban. Do they come with a built in mobile
base? I could just tie it off to the bumper and pull it home!:D

Bruce

[Lee DeRaud]

...so other than trying to save a buck or two why shop from mail order houses or online?Question of perspective, I guess. For me (and I suspect a lot of people here who aren't doing this as a business) it's less hassle to order from Amazon and deal with the oddities of UPS/FedEx/JoesFreightCo, than to go through the kabuki dance of renting/borrowing a truck to pick up something myself. Even that assumes I'm buying something at the local Borg/Rockler/whatever...I don't think my neighbor is going to let me use his pickup truck to get a tablesaw from 400 miles out.

(Also note that, to me, anything I can't get off the truck by myself is "stationary"...at my age and fitness level, that means a max of about 150 lbs.:p )

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

How hard would it be when pay a few grand for something like that to call your insurance agent and order up a rider for a mere $25.00 or so?

In theory you have the shipper on the hook but that might end up with you paying a lawyer to make 'em pay. You insurance company can pay if yout thingie gets damaged and if they want to, they can go after the shipper's insurance.

[Cecil Arnold]

Here is an example of on line savings from the purchase of my PM 3520A. I would have liked to buy from the local guy who had one for $2495. Since I always feel it is better to support local business I really wanted to do business with him, however--I found I could get the lathe for $2229 shipped (free?) on line. The $266 was not the deal breaker, as it would be worth that to insure that any problems that arose would be handled locally. Then add in the 8.25% state and local sales tax, which would bring the cost up to $2700. Now instead of $266 we are talking $471 difference in the on line sales price ($2229) vs local price ($2700). I like the local guy, just not that much.

[Larry Browning]

I agree with Chuck on this one. For all the reasons he states, plus, The closest city to me is Fort Smith Arkansas . There isn't a source for machinery there. So I would need to drive to Tulsa or maybe even Dallas to shop for these large ticket items. Springfield, MO (Grizzly) is about a 3-4 hour drive for me and I did go up there to get my TS and jointer. But, if I had to do it over again I would have it delivered. Sometime this year (I hope) I will be in the market for a bandsaw and I will probably order from them instead of making the drive. The way my shop is located, a delivery truck could back right to my loading dock and wheel that sucker right in the door, which would be way less stressful and time consuming than picking it up myself. Sure, there is a risk of not things not being what you had thought they were. But in my situation, I would much rather ship something back, (after all, I already have the shipping crate) rather than having to load it back up and haul it back 200 miles for an exchange.
For smaller stuff I really prefer to order online. There is a huge selection that isn't even available locally and the price is usually better. The only downside is having to wait for my order to arrive. But even that can be a plus. There is nothing like seeing the UPS box sitting on the porch as I drive up the driveway and thinking "Man, am I going to have fun tonight!"

[Bruce Lewis]

Well, time is money. The nearest place where I can look at and buy a good table saw or band saw is the Woodcraft store in Roswell. That's a three hour drive there and back. And that's only if they have what I want. Otherwise it's a waste of time.

The store is over 40 miles away. At 15 miles to the gallon that $15 just for the gas to get there and back.

In the three hours it takes to get there and back I can cut parts for 20 (speaker) cabinets. As I said, time is money.

After I'm done for the day, I can go online and shop for things I need without taking away shop time. Yeah, I could work late I guess if I head down to the Woodcraft or Rockler stores. But my shop is behind my house and I have neighbors. Too much noise too late and they call the cops.

There is the issue that sometimes you get free shipping when shopping online and often no sales tax. The combination of those two can more than make up for slightly higher prices on a web site.

So, for me at least, shopping online is more convenient and it's generally cheaper. Store front shops often don't have what I want. So going there is moot anyway if they have to order it. I'm dependent on shipping anyway. Other than being able to put my hands on a display model, generally there is little incentive to go to a (not so) local store.

[tod evans]

well nobodies addressing the issue of "you get to see in person what you`re buying" if you buy locally. how many of the issues raised on this forum by unhappy buyers would never have been issues if they had seen the piece of equipment before they bought it?
i`m not siding with the consumer the reseller or the manufacturer, but in the instance of "joe" who orders a 750# widget online expecting a flawless widget and gets his widget with blemishes inside pristine packing materials who should the liability for "joes" sattisfaction fall on? and if either the reseller or the manufacturer agree to replace "joes" 750# widget who should be liable for shipping the widget?
tod

[Jerry Olexa]

I live in the far suburbs of a major city.(Chicago)Yet, to get certain WW items, I many times have to order via internet , mail . etc. Its usually for me, a case of selection (the assortment available) versus the local stores. For lumber and major tools, I like to see/touch/use before purchase. But on speciality items ( a specific router bit, a special adapter, or hardware) I end up using people like Lee Valley, etc. I have this also on finishing supplies e.g., shellac flakes. Just MHO. Theres a need for both...

[Jesse Cloud]

I buy all my stationary stuff from the local guys. Delivery is free and they are accountable. Been burned by Amazon, been burned by FEDEX, ....

I'm lucky enough to be close to one of the Woodworker Supply warehouses, so I'm not sure what I would do if the 'local guy' was 500 miles away (next 'town' after Albuquerque).

[glenn bradley]

I'll agree with Jerry; I am spoiled living in an area where I've got to drive in 72 degree weather a whole 30 minutes to get to a real woodworking store. On the way I pass many others that I shop at depending what I am looking for. Given all that, I still do a lot of shopping online but, I have not purchased anything BIG online and am struggling with the options. Given the geographic density of dealers here I would almost rather go pick an item up and look the guy in the eye.

Glenn

[Richard Niemiec]

In my case when I upgraded my jointer and planer to 8" and 15" respectively, I went to the sort-of local (Philadelphia suburb) Woodworking Show and ordered at show prices with free delivery from a sort-of local (N. New Jersey) retailer (1.5 hours from my house), who likely would have had to order the stuff anyway, and who had their own delivery truck. Had a small parts issue which was promptly handled, and was otherwise satisfied. I paid sales tax on $2300, but no shipping so it sort of was a wash on that score. Avoided the common carrier delivery issues as these guys understood what they were hauling and were careful with it.

[Scott Loven]

Question, when you buy local, is it always set-up and ready to go, or does it come in a box?
Scott

[Matt Meiser]

Everything I've bought local had to be set up, with the exception of a floor model item.

[Larry Browning]

well nobodies addressing the issue of "you get to see in person what you`re buying" if you buy locally. how many of the issues raised on this forum by unhappy buyers would never have been issues if they had seen the piece of equipment before they bought it?
i`m not siding with the consumer the reseller or the manufacturer, but in the instance of "joe" who orders a 750# widget online expecting a flawless widget and gets his widget with blemishes inside pristine packing materials who should the liability for "joes" sattisfaction fall on? and if either the reseller or the manufacturer agree to replace "joes" 750# widget who should be liable for shipping the widget?
tod
Tod, I think it is really just a personal preference thing. For some people, being able to see the actual thing you are buying is VERY important. For those folks, I think going to the store/warehouse, picking it up or even arranging to have it delivered is the only way to go. Even if it means not getting EXACTLY the widget you would have preferred. But since you were able to touch it and get that personal service that only a local supplier can provide face to face, the widget he has becomes the best option for you. You have a face, a person to go back to when there is a problem. This is VERY important to SOME people. It is the only thing that makes since.
But for others, like me, these things are not as important. Price and selection are more important to me. I am willing to give up that warm fuzzy feeling that a local supplies can give in order to get a better price. In my case it probably means that I can actually get the widget online, where as I couldn't afford it otherwise. I don't think that one philosophy is better than the other . It is just a personal choice, what ever floats your boat.

[tod evans]

Tod, I think it is really just a personal preference thing. For some people, being able to see the actual thing you are buying is VERY important. For those folks, I think going to the store/warehouse, picking it up or even arranging to have it delivered is the only way to go. Even if it means not getting EXACTLY the widget you would have preferred. But since you were able to touch it and get that personal service that only a local supplier can provide face to face, the widget he has becomes the best option for you. You have a face, a person to go back to when there is a problem. This is VERY important to SOME people. It is the only thing that makes since.
But for others, like me, these things are not as important. Price and selection are more important to me. I am willing to give up that warm fuzzy feeling that a local supplies can give in order to get a better price. In my case it probably means that I can actually get the widget online, where as I couldn't afford it otherwise. I don't think that one philosophy is better than the other . It is just a personal choice, what ever floats your boat.

larry, i wasn`t addressing the warm fuzzy feelings? if you have a problem with a 750# widget bought online that arrives in an intact packing crate who should foot the freight bill to return the widget and rectify the problem? the reseller/the manufacturer or you the customer? tod

[David Duke]

larry, i wasn`t addressing the warm fuzzy feelings? if you have a problem with a 750# widget bought online that arrives in an intact packing crate who should foot the freight bill to return the widget and rectify the problem? the reseller/the manufacturer or you the customer? tod

To answer your question directly, whoever I bought the machine from would/should be responsible for correcting any problem I have and this would include all shipping.

That said most items bought locally are still packaged/crated, once I get it home and find problems inside I will have to take it back to the retailer because he sure isn't coming to my shop to pick it up. So buying local (which I would rather do) if I encounter problems, I would be out my time for two trips to the local retailer (and as we all know time is money) plus fuel for a 60 mile round trip......twice.............that $75.00 shipping fee doesn't look quite so expensive.

[Jim Becker]

Dr. SWMBO and I do a huge percentage of our non-food buying online. We do more retail these days for things like clothing for the girls (Tar-zhay, usually...), but in all honesty, time efficiency and convenience wins out over a lot more local purchasing. I do patronize my local tool dealer, although it's odds and ends these days 'cause I already own all the big stuff, for the most part, that's going to get bought from them...or anyone.

I've had very little, if any, shipping issues. The only one I can remember recently is when a trucking firm made my 8' Festool rail into a pretzel trying to deliver it with a 50' trailer. (I picked up the replacement at the terminal...) UPS, FedEX and DHL have all delivered just fine. Other big stuff, I picked up at the terminal or at a show with my (previously owned) pickup truck or my friend Russ' lift-gate box truck. (I'm going to be buying a trailer soon to get back that functionality with the Highlander)

Most shipments are FOB warehouse when they are shipped and I'm careful to check for damage upon delivery. Vendors I deal with have always stood up when there are issues, either assisting with the return/replacement or doing it directly. And to Tod's question in post #17, I believe that the vendor should stand up for their product if any damage is hidden...if they ever want to do business with me again or with anyone I have influence over. Standing up doesn't necessarily mean they ultimately have to foot the bill, but going to bat WITH you relative to the carrier, when appropriate, is what I expect.

[Tyler Howell]

I bought a few majors on line and got a little heated on one.
Amazon got the burn on my DJ20.
It is almost exclusively $$$ with online shopping. They can do what locals can't.
I'm not ashamed to say I let the locals make the sale and then give the money to some one else.
I can see and touch everything before hand then get on line and shop.
All of the locals I frequent have made a lot of $$$ on me. I'm a welcome customer and they are glad to talk shop.
I also continue to take my work business to them so it is a win win.
For the motivated hobiest, there is still an additional delivery charge for the locally purchased monster machines after S&H and sales tax. One flat delivery can get the whole thing dropped at the door with online purchases.

[John Shuk]

I can't see my self buying another big tool online. First and foremost the Toolnut brick and mortar location is close by. They are great to me. But I bought a Laguna bandsaw and it was a headache that I have never gotten over. Nothing like being able to go see a person when a problem arises.

[tod evans]

okay, following the general consensus as i`m reading it we should only have grizzly type stores for major equipment. wmh tool group who owns several major brands as well as b&d/dewalt/delta/portercable should, and most likely will, in the future sell directly to the consumer via either phone or internet......this seems to be the way of the future in the "global marketplace" at least all of us who purchase our equipment online are telling the bigboys this is how we choose to do business by our actions.
i`m not saying this is good or bad just that that`s how i`m interperting the posts in this thread............please press 7 for our automated customer complaint department your credit card will be billed.........02 tod

[David Duke]

okay, following the general consensus as i`m reading it we should only have grizzly type stores for major equipment. wmh tool group who owns several major brands as well as b&d/dewalt/delta/portercable should, and most likely will, in the future sell directly to the consumer via either phone or internet......this seems to be the way of the future in the "global marketplace" at least all of us who purchase our equipment online are telling the bigboys this is how we choose to do business by our actions.
i`m not saying this is good or bad just that that`s how i`m interperting the posts in this thread............please press 7 for our automated customer complaint department your credit card will be billed.........02 tod

If I'm not mistaken your question was who should be responsible for return shipping on damaged products not the pros/cons of buy local vs online.

[tod evans]

If I'm not mistaken your question was who should be responsible for return shipping on damaged products not the pros/cons of buy local vs online.

actually david my original question was ;
"so other than trying to save a buck or two why shop from mail order houses or online?"

the shipping comes into play when a problem arrises with an online purchase. then i asked;

"how many of the issues raised on this forum by unhappy buyers would never have been issues if they had seen the piece of equipment before they bought it?
in the instance of "joe" who orders a 750# widget online expecting a flawless widget and gets his widget with blemishes inside pristine packing materials who should the liability for "joes" sattisfaction fall on? and if either the reseller or the manufacturer agree to replace "joes" 750# widget who should be liable for shipping the widget? "

so really what i was getting at in a `round about way was
how many "problems" with machines that where shipped to the consumer would have never happened if the tools where purchased from a reputable local dealer who sets the equipment up and dials it in before delivery?

then after reading the posts and the various reasons for online/catalogue shopping i posted what you quoted as an observation of the way we as consumers are driving the industry. if customer service in todays day in age consists of repackaging and returning equipment then the resellers who must eat the freight costs are at best breaking even on customer problems and if that`s the case why should they bother? hence the observation that all equipment will most likely be purchased directly from the importer.....follow my train of thought? tod

[Steve Ash]

I don't buy much online with exception of some go fast goodies for the Chevelle SS on fleabay that I couldn't get anywhere else.

I am the kind of person who needs to get my hands on the actual thing I am buying, look it over real good, buy it locally if I can, and walk out with purchase in hand or in truck.

[David Duke]

You make a very valid point with what your saying but in todays market, and its been that way for a long time, there are very few "full service" vendors around here and I live just outside of Houston. Sure you can look at the machine locally and even buy it here but the cost doesn't include set-up, in most instances you will receive the product packaged just as if you bought it online or on the phone and the freight company delivered it.

I'm sure the larger commercial operations have machinery set-up available to them for the upper end machinery purchases but for most mid range and lower purchases its a buy it and set up yourself package. I would assume that you could pay to have someone deliver and set up even the $400.00 table saw but you would most likely spend at least another $100.00 for the extra service.......for most of us including yourself why pay for something we could do ourselves?

[Steve Clardy]

I order most all my shop supplies, small tools, [routers, blades, etc.] online.
Now. When it comes time to spend $1000.00 and over for machinery, I buy in PERSON. I gotta see it, haul it home myself.
Granted, I limit myself to my travel distances, KC Mo, Springfield, Mo. Which usually, whatever I need, I can find in either of those two cities.
If I can't see the machinery, I won't buy it.

[tod evans]

You make a very valid point with what your saying but in todays market, and its been that way for a long time, there are very few "full service" vendors around here and I live just outside of Houston. Sure you can look at the machine locally and even buy it here but the cost doesn't include set-up, in most instances you will receive the product packaged just as if you bought it online or on the phone and the freight company delivered it.

I'm sure the larger commercial operations have machinery set-up available to them for the upper end machinery purchases but for most mid range and lower purchases its a buy it and set up yourself package. I would assume that you could pay to have someone deliver and set up even the $400.00 table saw but you would most likely spend at least another $100.00 for the extra service.......for most of us including yourself why pay for something we could do ourselves?

this is absolutely true, but when there`s a problem with the componants in the box and we`ve purchased it through a mailorder house or off line that company is compelled to eat the freight to return and ship yet another piece and given the tight profits on equipment they`ve lost money or at best broke even. it won`t be long before the online/mailorder houses will start going belly-up `cause the tai/chi stuff does have quality issues and the only way to rectify those issues is to ship equipment back-n-forth across the country at the resellers expense or have local service. and the local service centers are dropping like flys here. tod

[Lee DeRaud]

this is absolutely true, but when there`s a problem with the componants in the box and we`ve purchased it through a mailorder house or off line that company is compelled to eat the freight to return and ship yet another piece and given the tight profits on equipment they`ve lost money or at best broke even. it won`t be long before the online/mailorder houses will start going belly-up `cause the tai/chi stuff does have quality issues and the only way to rectify those issues is to ship equipment back-n-forth across the country at the resellers expense or have local service.If it were really that big a problem, people like Amazon would never have gotten into the tool business in the first place. I suspect they've got a rather carefully-calculated percentage of "retries" figured into their prices already and/or written into the contracts with their suppliers.

[tod evans]

If it were really that big a problem, people like Amazon would never have gotten into the tool business in the first place. I suspect they've got a rather carefully-calculated percentage of "retries" figured into their prices already and/or written into the contracts with their suppliers.

lee, why should wmh/delta/ect. even use amazon or tool crib as a marketing arm if they`re not providing warranty service? any schmuck with a computer can take orders and drop-ship so what are the larger importers gaining by not dealing directly with the phone/online customers?
tod

[Mark Carlson]

Tod,

When I bought my General 650 last year I bought it local becuase I was nervous about getting a saw that might have been damaged in shipping. The local dealer was maybe a little more because of taxes, but he fully inspected the machine, cleaned it up, measured the top for flatness and put a power cord on it, so I could see it running. He then followed me home with it in a truck and put it into my garage. This is the way I like to buy large machinery. I'll gladly pay hundreds more for this kinda service on a large machine. I guess I'm lucky to have major tool distributer locally. That being said I'm a major online shopper for smaller tools. I've received damaged goods and never had a problem shipping things back for a return. Good companies will schedule a UPS or Fedex pickup.

~mark

[Lee DeRaud]

lee, why should wmh/delta/ect. even use amazon or tool crib as a marketing arm if they`re not providing warranty service? any schmuck with a computer can take orders and drop-ship so what are the larger importers gaining by not dealing directly with the phone/online customers?I think you're rather badly underestimating the amount of sales/service/bookkeeping infrastructure that an outfit like Amazon provides: "some schmuck with a computer" doesn't cut it these days.

But mostly, WMH/Delta/etc really don't want to be in the retail sales business. If nothing else, doing that puts them in direct competition with their regular wholesalers. There are companies that do that, but they generally end up charging full list-price on direct sales.

[Ian Barley]

I buy online for a lot of stuff - including most big machines. I do it 'cos I get a range of choice that I cannot get in any one place and because the internet is still open at 8:00pm when I get round to doing paperwork. I don't see that opening a box that has just been delivered by a carrier is any different to opening a box that I have just delivered myself. If there is a problem ( a real problem) then I expect the supplier to work with me either way. If he doesn't then the range of options available online enables me to cast my vote with my wallet.

I have to say, and I respect that I am in a minority here, but some of the recent posts have not seemed to be real problems in my estimation. I have had machines arrive with "cosmetic" scratches etc. I couldn't care less. Whatever they are they will disappear very rapidly when contrasted against the ones I am gonna put there when I use the machine. This is not jewellery. Yes - it should be in good condition and yes it should perform its function completely and adequately. But my own attitude is that I could not care less if the paintwork is scratched a bit. Again I realise that there is a spectrum of opinion but maybe the folks for whom these matters seem critical should limit themselves to the face to face deal while a more relaxed attitude might be needed for the remote transaction. I am not advocating supplying or accepting rubbish - just a sense of proportion.

As a converse - I am an "online" supplier of my own product which is shipped by common carrier to remote purchasers who have never seen the product. I have a simple principle that says that if the customer isn't happy you do what you need to until he is happy. On one occasion I supplied 3 sets of furniture to the same customer because of transit damage. I suspect that the stuff was being "abused" by the same delivery guy. By the time the third set arrived intact I had ceased to make any money on the transaction (shipping, packaging and time) but if the customer had wanted I would have sent the stuff 30 times if necessary. I would far rather lose money on the deal and have him tell a good story about service than cut my losses and have him spread bad opinions.

[Lopaka Garcia]

You guys on the mainland don't know how good you have it when it comes to buying stuff either through online, mail order or retail. How often I see something I want online/catalog that advertises "free" shipping, only to see it apply to Continental US only if they ship here at all. Yes living in paradise does have it's benefits, but not when it comes to shopping. That's when shopping at one of the borgs, HD or Lowes makes a difference. Although I can't stand the unknowledgeble people that work there, the prices do make a difference. I can get something at the local HD for the same price advertised online and that's a huge savings, especially on large pieces of equipment. Drive somewhere to pick it up? Heck I can't drive 50 miles in any direction without driving into the ocean. We in Hawaii have come to live with this as the price of sunshine and beaches year round but I do get jealous of you guys when it comes to stuff like buying tools and such. I think one of the main reasons

[Larry Browning]

Tod,
This discussion has got me wondering how often 750# widgets actually are returned due to poor tool quality. It seems to me that as freight costs rise it is more and more cost effective to make sure that that 750# widget is in pristine condition when it leaves the warehouse.

[Steve Clardy]

If anyone has ever attended one of Grizzlys annual tent sales, they can see where a lot of the shipping mistakes end up at.
At those sales. Scratch and dent, busted beyond belief sometimes.

[Frank Pellow]

Except for Festool, almost all my tool and lumber shopping is in person. (And because of Bob Marino, even my Festool purchases feel like I am shopping in person.) I am lucky in that there are a lot of lumber and tool dealers nearby and I am even luckier that one of the nearby stores is Lee Valley.

In Canada, we don’t get the benefit of no sales tax if we buy out of province, so that incentive for shopping on-line does not exist here. However, I do almost all my research on-line.

[tod evans]

I think you're rather badly underestimating the amount of sales/service/bookkeeping infrastructure that an outfit like Amazon provides: "some schmuck with a computer" doesn't cut it these days.

But mostly, WMH/Delta/etc really don't want to be in the retail sales business. If nothing else, doing that puts them in direct competition with their regular wholesalers. There are companies that do that, but they generally end up charging full list-price on direct sales.

lee, wmh/delta ARE the wholesalers, and they allready have the "sales/bookkeeping" infrastructure intact and amazon offers no "service per-se other than dealing with online orders hence the schmuk with a computer analogy. this is why i wonder how much longer folks like the dealer mark spoke of will remain in business, let alone the drop-shippers like amazon and their affiliates once they feel the pinch of the couple of companies who are directly marketing their imported wares. right now amazon and the mom-n-pop shops are the retailers who might make 15-20% on a sale if there are no issues with the equipment. as things sit you`re right they don`t "want" to deal with the public and the associated headaches but how much longer can they isolate themselves and remain competitive? again this is only what isee from this vantage point...02 tod

[Steven Wilson]

Well most big items are shipped FOB and the larger items I've looked at locally (Cassedi, SCMI, Northfield) are still FOB so freight is paid either way. If the local supplier has one in stock, in a crate then the advantage is I can see it before buying. So, with the stationary tools you're likely to be responsible for shipping both ways if you're not satisfied with the product. On the more expensive products (Felder, Martin, et al) commissioning is either included or available so that the company rep is responsible for getting the machine into proper working order at your site. Of course those services aren't available or would be too expensive on the low end light industrial equipment like Jet, Powermatic, and Delta. The companies assume that you know how to commission these devices.

As for sales tax, check your local state sales tax laws. Many states have statutes on the books where you're responsible for paying sales tax on out-of-state purchased items. Granted not many of us pay that tax, we choose to break the law instead.