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Maurice Metzger
05-07-2006, 8:35 PM
Sorry for the really bad pun in the title, I couldn't resist.

I have had a Z-Saw Single Edge Rip Saw (I think technically it's called a Kataha Tatebiki) for a while. I wasn't too happy with it.

Recently I bought a Gyokucho 611 9/22 TPI Double Edge (Ryoba Noko Giri) "Razor Saw" that was made for cutting hardwood. Today I tried using both saws to rip some 4/4 hard maple.

The Gyokucho saw did much better than the Z-Saw. I guess it wasn't even a fair test since the Gyokucho is designed for hardwoods. Smooth cutting with very little effort. I could have read a book and pulled the saw one-handed. I wandered off the line at the end but that was due to operator inattention. With 9 TPI the cut was pretty smooth. I tried to get a photo of the final surface but the light defeated me.

The Z-Saw is on the bottom:

38041

The Gyokucho ryoba:

38042

And the Z-Saw:

38043

- Maurice

James Ayars
05-07-2006, 9:03 PM
Even with the light problem in your photos, I can see a big difference between the two cuts. The Z-saw looks much rougher. I bought a pull saw a few weeks ago and love it. Mine was a Vaughn "cheapie" but it still does great work for me.
James

Dan Forman
05-08-2006, 3:43 AM
Maurice---Looking good. Do you have a link to the saw?

Dan

Alan DuBoff
05-08-2006, 3:48 AM
Maurice,

Is it possible to get a closeup of the teeth? My dozuki won't cut hardwood for beans. :(

I think it is partially what drove me to use western style saws.

Mike Wenzloff
05-08-2006, 9:40 AM
I suspect it has less negative rake and perhaps a slight fleam. I recently filed one I made this way and it works well.

Take care, Mike

Maurice Metzger
05-08-2006, 12:55 PM
Dan, the link is:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=19.611.0&dept_id=13088

Note that there is a single-edge rip "Razor Saw" for hardwoods by the same manufacturer in the single edge saw section (Kataha).

No connection to seller other than spending way too much time there - the store is close by.

Alan, here's some closeups of the rip side:

38091

38092

38093

For comparison here's the Z-Saw:

38096

38097

The crosscut side of the Ryoba looks like "standard" mass produced Japanese teeth.

Mike, of course that's the beauty of western saws - you (and I do mean you, not me - yet) can change the way they are filed to suit your needs.

- Maurice

Mike Wenzloff
05-08-2006, 2:20 PM
More expensive Japanese saws can be changed as well because they are not as hard as the less expensive ones.

The experiment of the two I have made has gone well. I am using a slightly harder steel than for the western saws, but am still able to file them.

The rake looks to be what I am using, give or take a degree. As well, these are thinned semi-traditionally. Well see.

Take care, Mike

Maurice Metzger
05-08-2006, 3:41 PM
I forgot to mention that the TPI changes from front to back along the blade, with the outer teeth being spaced farther apart than the ones closer to the handle. I think this is pretty standard for Japanese saws. There also might be some tapering of the blade from edge to back, but I didn't check.

And I was wrong about a single edge rip saw being available from Japan Woodworker, on rechecking I only see a crosscut version.

- Maurice

Dan Racette
05-08-2006, 5:27 PM
Hey mike, do you have pics of the two that you just made?

dan

Pam Niedermayer
05-08-2006, 5:42 PM
...And I was wrong about a single edge rip saw being available from Japan Woodworker, on rechecking I only see a crosscut version.

Check out the Hida (http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/saws/rip%20cross.html ) site for examples of kataba tatebiki.

Pam

Mike Wenzloff
05-08-2006, 7:12 PM
Hey mike, do you have pics of the two that you just made? dan
Hi Dan,

The specs: they are a ryoba-style rip tooth, roughly 345 mm [13.5"] x a depth of about 120 mm [4 3/4"].

Currently they are unhandled. I am toying with just how non-traditional I wish to make the handles and how they are joined. I should get the one finished around Memorial Day. I originally made one to finish off the kerf for a large stair saw which I lowered the hang considrably on. This meant I didn't have enough room to push a western-style saw through.

A commerically available saw wasn't handy nor of the right thickness and so I made the one used on the stair saw. This in turn led to making a better one. One thing does lead to another.

I have a bunch of things on the ol' plate right now and have taken on a couple other commitments which could push completing the pull saw a little as those too are to be done the same weekend.

But trust me, I'll post when it is ready for primetime.

Take care, Mike

Alan DuBoff
05-09-2006, 12:01 AM
Maurice,

Thanks for posting the link, and for the pics. The rip teeth look similar to a Mitsukawa rip I tried a while back, and the crosscut side in the pics on the japanwoodworker site look similar (but shorter) than the dozuki I own. Seems the majority of Japanese saws are crosscut.

The long teeth on mine appear to spring when cutting, but the teeth themself are not strong enough to cut hardwoods effectively. In fact, even though the teeth are crosscut, the saw will not crosscut hardwoods in a tolerable fashion. I bet the shorter crosscut teeth might do a bit better. I'm certain the rip teeth will cut hardwoods better, and have cut some pretty hard wood with the Mitsukawa I tried.

Are the teeth shorter than your Dozuki Z?

Mike, Hope you decide to add a nice hardwood handle, unlike the cheap bamboo handles typically fitted to Japanese saws. Some of the bamboo handles are nice, but I presonally prefer a nicer piece of hardwood to a piece of bamboo wrap, any day.

Pam Niedermayer
05-09-2006, 12:48 PM
Alan, for a rip dozuki try Hiraide for the Kaneharu, tested by Chris Schwartz at Pop WW, rated the best by him.

Pam

Alan DuBoff
05-09-2006, 2:25 PM
Alan, for a rip dozuki try Hiraide for the Kaneharu, tested by Chris Schwartz at Pop WW, rated the best by him.I'm looking at that on Hirade's site. At $220 for the 180mm dozuki, that's gonna take either some soberin' up, or some liquorin' up, I'm not sure which one yet... :D

Maurice Metzger
05-30-2006, 3:23 PM
As an update to this, the crosscut side of this saw is not such a great performer.

Maurice

Dave Burnard
05-30-2006, 4:59 PM
I'm usually pretty happy with the crosscut performance of Gyokucho saws - I prefer them over the other brands of replaceable blade saws. What sorts of problems are you seeing with this saw and what are you comparing it against? It's a 210mm saw, blue label (hardwood) ryoba is that right? What size stock were you cutting, etc.

Good Luck!

Maurice Metzger
05-30-2006, 6:26 PM
Hi Dave, I should have been more specific. On crosscuts my saw cuts roughly and slowly. It does follow the line well though. I was cutting some soft maple, the usual (out here) "Pacific" maple (is that even real maple?)

The saw is a Gyokucho model 611, the length is 240mm. But it has a red label. Japan Woodworker markets this as a hardwood saw.

For me it will be a keeper because of the rip performance. I only did this follow-up in the interest of being thorough, based on my limited use I wouldn't recommend it as someone's all-around saw.

Maurice

Dave Burnard
06-06-2006, 12:23 AM
Stoped by Hida on Friday when I was in the Bay Area on business... Ah yes, it used to come in a blue plastic sleeve with a red label, and now I see they've dropped the blue sleeve but kept the red label. Harder to tell them apart, but they seemed like same saws. I'm happy with the crosscut performance of my (admittedly old) version of this saw - I hope they didn't change it somehow and make the teeth too coarse or add too much set to the teeth...

I think the 240mm hardwood saws had teeth with about the same TPI as the 210mm softwood saw - 22TPI or so. With 22TPI you don't want to be sawing through 2x4 sized pieces, but it ought to fly through smaller pieces of soft maple.

Enjoy!

Alan DuBoff
06-06-2006, 1:12 AM
Dave, when I was at Japan Woodworker on Sat., I saw the Izaemon Rip Saw

(linky image)

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/assets/images/product/JapanWoodworker/05.114.jpg (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=05.114.21&dept_id=13085)


The saw I saw had finer teet at the heel and coarser teeth at the toe, so that it would be easier to start a cut, AFAICT. This was more like 13 tpi, and looked like it would be a good saw for hardwoods, but hard to tell. The z saw has teeth that look similar, and I've heard that it's not great for hardwoods either.

The Mitsukawa is 13 tpi and good for hardwoods, I have cut into hard wood with one of those. It's in the same price range, from Mitsugi Design.

Maurice Metzger
06-06-2006, 12:24 PM
Dave, here's a not-so-good closeup of the crosscut side pushed up against a straightedge - it actually is as far as it can go. To me it looks like it needs to be jointed (not that I'm going to do that). Not all the teeth reach the straight edge. Or is that just the way it should look?

40278

Maurice

Dave Burnard
06-07-2006, 2:56 AM
That picture doesn't look right - the teeth should be in a straight line on a ryoba. Definitely not concave. Wag of the finger for Gyokucho's quality control.

I have one of those Izeamon rip dozuki's - very thin kerf, very fast cutting for small rip cuts and dovetails. It's my favorite saw for cutting dovetails. Yup the tooth sizes increases from heel to tip. It's a nice saw. I have a couple of other types of saws from Mitsukawa-san - he makes nice saws as well. I'd probably lean toward the Mitsukawa if I was looking.

The Z rip saw I have is pretty awful - the kind of saw you'd loan to your brother-in-law. :rolleyes:

Alan DuBoff
06-07-2006, 5:03 AM
Dave, I wish I could have cut with the Izaemon, but it was new and the owner pulled it out of the case for me. I remember the Mitsukawa as having a slightly thicker kerf, but it cut hardwood well.

How does the Izaemon do on hardwoods?

They told me the Isaemon was RC58 I believe, so that must mean you can sharpen it yourself. Do you sharpen your Japanese style saws?

Dave Burnard
06-09-2006, 2:31 AM
Other than a test cut or two in some pine, I've mostly used the Izeamon for dovetails in hard maple and red oak. It worked well.

Yep the Izeamon can be sharpened (pretty much any not-replaceable blade can be sharpened). I've done some sharpening on larger saws - but I don't get enough practice to want to mess with my good saws. I figure I only have time to get really good at a one or two things. ;) So I send my good saws to Mark Grable.

Alan DuBoff
06-09-2006, 3:06 AM
Dave,

I only have a disposable blade dozuki, that's the only Japanese saw I have. But I have other saws that I use, and actually rarely use the dozuki unless there's something special I need to cut with it.

Maybe someday I'll get a Mitsukawa, don't know, I would more than likely have Mike Wenzloff make one for me, he mentioned he was doing a Japanese style saw not long ago, as I recall. Would be nice to see something with a hand shaped hardwood handle.

Dave Burnard
06-11-2006, 1:11 PM
Small world that it is, Mike and I literally live right around the corner from each other, we were just talking about rip dozukis yesterday so he'll have plenty of tooth/set variations to look at when he's ready.

=====

I forgot to say it before - but Maurice's wavy toothed crosscut teeth should probably be returned as defective. Compare to a few replacement blades to make sure they didn't make a bad batch or something. You can't really joint and resharpen those teeth without softening them some first. Replaceable blade teeth are impulse hardened (or some similar process) and they end up too hard to cut with a file. Not worth the effort unless you're trying to learn how to sharpen japanese crosscut teeth.

It's possible to knock the tops off of a section of teeth if you hit some embedded metal while sawing or try to cut formica. That wouldn't happen under ordinary circumstances though and your picture didn't look like that was what was wrong either.

Maurice Metzger
06-11-2006, 1:34 PM
Dave, I'm pretty sure the saw came that way. I used the rip side on several large pieces of hard maple, but only used the crosscut side on several small pieces of soft maple, and it started out cutting badly.

I'm sure Japan Woodworker would give me a replacement in a second, but I only needed the rip side anyway. It seems like most inexpensive Japanese crosscut saws cut well, I have a Z-Saw with the plastic pistol grip handle that crosscuts fine, especially this soft maple.

Thanks (or no thanks) to Alan and Mike W. and others, I'm also getting interested in western saws for crosscutting, I like the idea of a blade that can be resharpened fairly easily. I think I'll always use a pull saw for rip cutting. I tried a newly sharpened Disston rip saw on hard maple once and it was a lot of work. But I'm a lazy sod.

It is a small world, luckily for Mike W. I don't live around the corner, he'd have gotten a restraining order by now - "whatcha doing now Mike?" would get old after 2000 times...

Alan, sharpening a RC58 blade seems like a lot of work to me.

Maurice

Alan DuBoff
06-11-2006, 2:42 PM
I'm sure Japan Woodworker would give me a replacement in a second, but I only needed the rip side anyway.I would take it back, because you never know when you'll need it. You might not need it now, but a time might turn up when you've got your saw somewhere and need to use the crosscut side.

It seems like most inexpensive Japanese crosscut saws cut well, I have a Z-Saw with the plastic pistol grip handle that crosscuts fine, especially this soft maple.I think it depends on the wood, really.

Thanks (or no thanks) to Alan and Mike W. and others, I'm also getting interested in western saws for crosscutting, I like the idea of a blade that can be resharpened fairly easily. I think I'll always use a pull saw for rip cutting. I tried a newly sharpened Disston rip saw on hard maple once and it was a lot of work. But I'm a lazy sod.I think it's good to have an open mind to various saws, try them out, and use what works for you. The Disston saw you had was not sharpened properly, if it was a "lot of work", because a sharp saw will cut through any wood, and most all woods very easily.

It is a small world, luckily for Mike W. I don't live around the corner, he'd have gotten a restraining order by now - "whatcha doing now Mike?" would get old after 2000 times...Actually, you would be surprised at how willing Mike is and does talk on the phone. The only reason I don't call him more is that I can talk about saws for hours.

Mike will work with you to build a saw like you want. You can truely get a custom handcrafted saw that way. Leif Hanson can do the same, as some of the others may be able to, but I consider these folks to be the premier saw makers of today, possibly add Tim Hoff in there. With that said, you can't go wrong with a new LN or Adria saw either. Just not as handcrafted, but still fine saws. Heck, I find that many of the vintage saws are excellent, and I have saws I've bought for $10 that are incredible saws. When you own a lot of saws and can try and test them against each other, it's easier to understand the differences. Even a Disston saws varies greatly over the years, from the saws produced during the 1800s with split nuts, to the slotted nut saws produced at the end of the 1800s (and moving forward), and some prefer the Disston saws produced around 1920, considering them to be the best of breed. I prefer the handles on the slightly older saws, and late 1800s typically has a handle that is not as machined. Nothing a rasp won't take care of, but if you talk about original saws, I certainly have some preferences myself. There are also many fine examples of English saws, and those should not be discounted or cast a shadow over with the Disston name. Take the new Disston saws sold today, they're garbage. The Disston name is to saws like coca-cola is to soda pop, IMO, but don't forget that there were great saws being made by the Brits for a long, long time before Disston came along. I feel those saws are more unique, in some cases more handcrafted, and in general many of them are excellent saws that I prefer much more.

Alan, sharpening a RC58 blade seems like a lot of work to me.Shouldn't be too bad. Make sure you've got a fresh file. Japanese saws will require the feather files. I have never filed any Japanese saws, and not sure how the 58 relates to a western style saw, but think it's pretty close. It's when you get into RC62 and RC64 that filing will become impossible, and that's what many of the Japanese saws are, sold today. Mike or Leif would know the hardness better. The other thing is that some Japanese saws have longer teeth, and those saws could be more difficult.

Not many folks sharpen their Japanese saws, most all of them that do have some of the higher quality saws send them out for sharpening, as Dave mentioned he does with his better quality Japanese saws.

EDIT: One last thought...some folks use and prefer a bow style saw, the ones with smaller blades can and will do the same job as a western style saw or a pull saw. Some of these are very nice also. I only have one, a smaller one with a small blade, with brass inlays. I didn't make it, but this saw can be used for cutting joinery also. Also not a bad saw, and many folks make their own bow saws.

Bob Strawn
05-28-2008, 9:54 AM
I am setting up an outdoor sink. I decided to go ahead and try out Japanese Tools for making the frame for it. I will also try learning a few of the methods of joining that are classic Japanese. I will be going for simple and solid, nothing worthy of a temple builder here.

Here is a Z Saw blade. Quite nice after stoning. Does a great job, I rate it number 3 for cross cut work. I have made better bowsaws, but this is a great tool and a bargain.

http://www.battlering.com/woodworking/images/Japanese%20Saws/Japanese%20Saw%201.JPG


I have a very similar one that is for cutting PVC, talk about a dream. I know PVC and this one is gold. Here is where I cut some old brittle pvc to make tree markers.

http://www.battlering.com/woodworking/images/Stu/PVC%20Saw.jpg

Every other cut and measure is being done by my son, Taylor.


Here are a few cuts we made while testing saws, the worst cut is on top of the factory surface. These saws cut nice smooth faces.
http://www.battlering.com/woodworking/images/Japanese%20Saws/Japanese%20Saw%208.JPG

Hands down, this is our favorite. A RazorSaw 650 that Schtoo (http://toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/) was kind enough to obtain for me. This is better that any saw that I have made. I would not know a better saw if I used it.
http://www.battlering.com/woodworking/images/Japanese%20Saws/Japanese%20Saw%209.JPG


One huge advantage of the ryoba is the width of the blade. This lets you sight down the edge and see if you are in line. This thing appears to magnify the visible error. If you are slightly off line, you appear way out of line.

Here it is with a bit of angle:

http://www.battlering.com/woodworking/images/Japanese%20Saws/Japanese%20Saw%2010.JPG

Here it is with the blade lined up with the pencil marks (don't worry, I will teach my son about marking knives tomorrow, this way he will know why they are superior!)

http://www.battlering.com/woodworking/images/Japanese%20Saws/Japanese%20Saw%2011.JPG

Here is the Bakkama (Bakuma actually but I can't resist the pun) ryoba. http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowwink.gif
Not our favorite by a long run. The thing drifts.
We tried out a few saws,

http://www.battlering.com/woodworking/images/Japanese%20Saws/Japanese%20Saw%2015.JPG

The Z saw was the fastest and probably the best for this job, considering a mirror finish is not needed. I love the handle on this thing. Easy to swap, and solid.
http://www.battlering.com/woodworking/images/Japanese%20Saws/Japanese%20Saw%2016.JPG


The Marples branded saw works really well despite missing teeth. But it is not in the running with the RazorSaw 650 ryoba! http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowbiggrin.gif

The saw I used and fell in love with is a 650. I definitely want it's brother the 651. RazorSaw makes a lot of blades (http://www.razorsaw.co.jp/english/kikaku.htm) but the thought of an even finer finish for dovetail work seems like a dream. The finish the 650 makes barely needs a touch up. But the 651 is rated for finish work.

Bob