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James Ayars
04-30-2006, 9:24 AM
Here's my situation. I have no planes. I would like to get one for the purpose of reducing the amount of sanding I have to do. I can't afford a LN or Veritas. Would the Stanley planes and/or Groz planes sold by Woodcraft serve my purpose? If so, which brand would be preferred? My guess is Stanley, but only a guess. Also which size..4or5 or some other size?

Many thanks for all the advice I've gotten on this forum.
James

Doug Shepard
04-30-2006, 9:58 AM
The Anant (India) planes are also decent lower cost planes. Highland Hardware sells them. I picked up a #8 for $89. It's hard to find much wrong with it - especially at that price.

Mike Wenzloff
04-30-2006, 10:04 AM
Hi James,

If I wanted to reduce my sanding and could only choose one plane to cover many situations?

I would recommend two and some extra bits actually. I know that wasn't what you requested...but.

I would get the Veritas cabinet scraper--or a vintage #80 if I could find one cheaper. I couldn't at the time and so bought the Veritas/Lee Valley one.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&cat=1,310&p=46266

I would also purchase a block plane for edge work and small face work. Again, if I couldn't find an inexpensive Stanley, say a #9 1/2, I would buy the LV low angle block plane.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32685&cat=1,41182,48942
The reason for it is LV is soon to release its attachable tote/handle for it which essentially turns it into a #3 size plane. So with the one plane it is comfy for hand-held use or both hands.

A vintage block is much less expensive, though.

And then I would pick up the set of hand-held scrapers to handle a decent variety of curves and flat surfaces:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32639&cat=1,310,41069&ap=1

The LV cabinet scraper is roughly $47 new, the last, the hand scrapers is roughly $11. So the only higher cost item is a block plane. A vintage one shouldn't cost more than $25.

If I still wanted a plane instead, I would find a good vintage plane, a pre-WWII Stanley, Sargent or Millers Falls. The whole numbered planes are generally a lot less than the half-numbered ones.

Due to the variability of quality and the amount of possible work to make a new lower-cost plane really worth using, I would recommend avoiding them.

Walt Quadrato, a member here and another forum, has many good selections of vintage planes in good shape, from block planes and scrapers to many "regular" planes and I would recommend him to anyone in a heartbeat.

Take care, Mike

skip coyne
04-30-2006, 10:07 AM
for a first plane a 4 or 5 would be the choice .

I would buy a flea mkt/garge sale / ebay, Stanley over something made in india .

I recently picked up a stanley 4C in good shape for $4.00 at a grage sale , he had a number 5 in rough shape for the same money.

the stanley have been used for generations of crafstsman it will serve you well.

Mark Stutz
04-30-2006, 10:29 AM
James,
This is a recurring dilemma. Mike has some good advice. The problem with the planes you refer to is that they are not ready to go out of the box. The first plane I bought was a Stanley from Woodcraft...they shouldn't be alowed to sell these!:( ...and I stuck with sandpaper for a couple more years!:eek: It wasn't until I had the opportunity to use a well tuned plane, thanks to a visit to Dave Anderson's shop, that I had any clue as to what a plane could do. So after using his a short time I bought a LN to use. I have since gone back and with a LOT OF WORK can get that plane to make passable shavings, but it is not one to start out on. A vintage Stanley tuned by one with some experience may be the best way to go. Sort of like having a mentor, which would be the ideal situation. Then you can search garage sales and such, with the knowledge that you can make whatever you get functional.

Mark

Richard Neel
04-30-2006, 10:38 AM
James,

I bought a Groz #4 for much the same reason. I have since picked up a LN block and LN 4 1/2. It wasn't until I had the nicer planes that I realized what a poor tool the Groz is. Mine had the added "feature" of a bent frog adjustment screw which I couldn't seem to get Groz to replace. The blade is also poor (too thin) and hard to tune for a beginner.

I know you said you can't afford the LN/LV planes which I completely understand. My suggestion would be to find some serviceable older planes and stay away from the the "new" Woodcraft (Groz/Stanely) offerings.

Mark Bergman
04-30-2006, 11:48 AM
Steve Knight of Knight Toolworks makes fantastic planes and has been known to offer his brand new smoothing planes on e-bay with no reserve prices set. I have seen them sell for $50-$60 which makes them IMHO the absolute best bargains by far in all of planedom. Ready to use out the box, although a little honing of the blade never hurts.

Maurice Metzger
04-30-2006, 1:17 PM
James, if you do decide to look on eBay, my experience has been that the best place to look is in the:

Collectibles->Tools, Hardware & Locks->Tools->Carpentry, Woodworking->Planes

area, not in the regular tools area. You'll be competing against collectors, which is a drawback, but the quality of what is offered is better.

Disclaimer:

Oops, just realized, I'm selling a couple of planes in that very area on eBay, so I'm not totally a disinterested observer.

- Maurice

Deirdre Saoirse Moen
04-30-2006, 3:54 PM
Personally, I'd go for a plane that's already been tuned by a fellow galoot OR a modern Steve Knight, LN, Veritas or Clifton.

I happened to start (not very long ago) with two modern Record planes (bought new several years ago), which weren't that hard to tune up. However, they're no longer made.

Michael Fross
04-30-2006, 10:17 PM
I would start with picking up an older stanley plane. My first plane (not counting the Buck Brothers I returned 1 min after purchasing it) was a pre-WWII stanley sweetheart #4 smoother. It took a little work flatening the sole and I did replace the blade with a Hock blade.

I found it on ebay. I bid on quite a few before I actually won one that didn't go over my price limit.

Best of luck. If you have questions about tuning, Garrett Hack's Plane Book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561587125/qid=1146449490/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-5932768-3191132?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) is invaluable.

Michael

Maurice Metzger
05-01-2006, 2:27 AM
Mike, I'm interested in your recommendation - do you feel a cabinet scraper is superior to a smooth plane? For some reason I assumed the plane would give a better finish.

I use a card scraper but have never used a #80 or the LV equivalent.

Thanks,
Maurice

Mike Wenzloff
05-01-2006, 3:06 AM
Hi Maurice,

My feeling was that as James has a specific interest and with a desire to limit financial expenditure. About the only plane or type of plane which would suit a wide array of woods and situations, coupled with the stated goal of limiting the use of sandpaper, is a scraper.

Ideally a scraper plane, the best bang for the buck being the LV, but felt that would also be out due to its cost.

So, a #80 in the wild can be had for resonable, and failing finding one, at about $47 is a great value.

But I also feel that its use can be enhanced by a quality block plane, which the LV is about the size of a #3, and with the additional ball tail or the forthcoming rear handle, can be used very effectively as either a small smoother or a block plane. For instance, about the quickest way to rid a board's edge of jointer marks is a block plane. Set for a light cut and being careful not to tilt the plane, it will not alter the just-jointed surface. It is much quicker than sanding an edge and leaves a crisp glue surface or a good edge for future shaping.

And as card scraper are inexpensive and so versatile, I also added them. So for a total investment of about $160, those three tools can reduce quite a bit of sanding.

Ideally, one wold find a few vintage planes. But in the end they would probably not work as easily over a variety of woods.

Well, that was my thinking. It's based upon the fact I have what Chris Schwarz calls "the blended shop." A mix of power tools and hand tools. There are many projects that other than joinery [chisels and joinery planes] or decoration [beading, chamfer or H&Rs], I don't use any hand tools save a scraper and/or a block plane.

Hope this actually answered your question. Well, I see it really didn't. Superior: hand plane vs. scraper. In part it depends on the wood and the goal. I use a lot of figured wood. Sometimes a scraper is the only cutting tool that will tame the surface. Sometimes I can sail through with just a plane for surface preperation. Sometimes neither beats sandpaper.

Take care, Mike

Doug Ketellapper
05-01-2006, 3:08 AM
I have to disagree with the Anant plane. I bought a #4 from Highland Hardware before I knew any better. I have a hard time finding anything right with it other than it looks pretty. The frog on mine is horribly machined. With the blade seated on the frog I have a strong 16th of an inch gap on each side. It's so far out of shape it's not worth even trying to get to fit well. Luckily I already owned a Lie Nielsen block plane so I knew what a good plane could do. I've since purchased and refurbished several old planes, mostly Stanley and Sargent, but some other brands in there too. I think money is MUCH better spent (if you can't afford Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley) getting one of these older planes, fixing them up, and adding an aftermarket iron from Hock, Lie Nielsen, or Lee Valley than buying a modern Stanley, Anant, or Groz plane. I would also try to find someone locally that could show you how to set a plane up for use. I wish I had done that. I spent way too many frustrating hours before I got good performance. In addition to the plane you'll have to be able to sharpen it, and that's a whole other ball of wax...

Deirdre Saoirse Moen
05-01-2006, 3:31 AM
I'm glad you said it -- our school has several Anant planes, as does another student. Personally, my modern Stanleys are better (I have a couple, though most of mine are older).

The woman with the Anant plane has spent 5 (of 10) classes fettling her plane.... Hasn't even bought her wood for her project yet.

Mike Wenzloff
05-01-2006, 8:58 AM
I think much is made of fettling a plane for use--and rightly so. It needs to be reasonably flat, the frog/body needs to fit well.

Too, a Hock replacement blade is a great addition, if for no other reason than the thicker blade is perhaps easier to hone.

But--there's always a but when someone starts out so agreeable <g>--if someone "needs" to spend longer than 30 minutes making something other than a fine smoother ready for working with, either they have greater expectations of the plane than need be, or they are going about it wrong.

Every vintage plane, regardless of maker, is bought in a state that it can be made to work better. Great. I agree. But I believe we take them much further toward a state of perfection they were never intended to be, nor need be. Just how did all that furniture get made with planes in such a poor condition, anyway?

Even using a stock blade and chip breaker, any plane is capable of taking .002" shavings in less than 30 minutes. This is a much finer shaving than is required for anything than a fine smoother.

I've used this term, fine smoother, a couple times. So what do I mean? I mean something that on most woods I can skip sanding if I am so inclined. I have never needed to spend more than 1 hour on a modern plane to make it consistently take a .001" shaving, and those attending plane tune-up classes where I have been involved never longer than a couple hours and part of that was shootin' the breeze as to why they were doing what they were doing. But this is only "necessary" for a fine smoother.

We, as plane fettlers in a modern enlightened society, seek making our planes into some state where we measure tolerances of soles with feeler gages on granite surface plates. It's all a bunch of hooey.

I think one of the sad things in this thread is that a teacher allowed someone to spend precious time dinking around with a plane for half the available class schedule. Another is that James may well think we are all nuts and avoid planes like the plague due to how much work is involved in even making a plane from the "golden era" into something "usable."

Ok. I've said my peace. My token shot in the dark. Maybe even a bit of dark-sider heresy.

Take care, Mike

Matthew Dworman
05-01-2006, 9:16 AM
I agree with alot of what has been said thus far. My thoughts are this:
If you are serious about woodworking and plan on doing it for the rest of your life, then look at your tools as an investment. If you only have to buy it once, you are better off. For a beginner, as you are learning how to use your tools properly, when you encounter problems, you will not know whether the problem is with you or with your tool. Therefore, I would recomend that your first few tools be premium tools - whether it is a Lie Nielsen, or an old stanley which somebody has tuned up for you (there are plenty of guys on this and other forums who sell tuned up stanleys at very reasonable prices). This way, you will know that the problem is technique and not a problem with the tool. The "Basic" starter planes that you will need are a block plane, a smoother (#4 or 4 1/2), a jointer (#7 or 8), and a jack or fore plane (#5, 5 1/2, or 6)
I would recomend getting a #4 to start. Get a premium one. Learn how to use it. Learn how to sharpen the dickens out of the blade. Once you feel very comfortable using it, then you should learn how to tune up your own plane and buy a used stanley and go at it. By this point you will know that any problems are with the tool and not your technique and you will learn how to solve these too.

I recomend David Charlesworth's boock "Furniture Making Techniques" Vol 1. it has some great info about tuning up planes and sherpening.

Good luck,
Matt

Maurice Metzger
05-01-2006, 12:10 PM
Mike, thanks for your detailed answer. I shouldn't have asked if the cabinet scraper was superior to a smooth plane - really I was just wondering if I could get away with the cabinet scraper instead of the smoothing plane. To me that would be like finding out I could get to work as fast or faster on a bicycle instead of a car.

I'm not working with exotic or highly figured wood now, although I sometimes do some scraping after using the smooth plane (usually due to charging in without taking a test cut or looking at how the grain is running).

I'll definitely try one out.

I liked Chris Schwarz's article on the "blended" shop, actually I'm liking the whole magazine so far.

- Maurice

James Mittlefehldt
05-01-2006, 12:32 PM
Mike, thanks for your detailed answer. I shouldn't have asked if the cabinet scraper was superior to a smooth plane - really I was just wondering if I could get away with the cabinet scraper instead of the smoothing plane. To me that would be like finding out I could get to work as fast or faster on a bicycle instead of a car.

I'm not working with exotic or highly figured wood now, although I sometimes do some scraping after using the smooth plane (usually due to charging in without taking a test cut or looking at how the grain is running).

I'll definitely try one out.

I liked Chris Schwarz's article on the "blended" shop, actually I'm liking the whole magazine so far.

- Maurice

You know it's funny but a few months back near Christmas I was considering pulling the trigger and subscribing to FWW but I really like the direction that Popular Woodworking is taking, there is often more in one article that is useful to me, than an entire issue of FWW. Adam Cherubino's column alone is worth the price of each issue.

Deirdre Saoirse Moen
05-01-2006, 2:44 PM
Mike, you made some good points. However, when someone decides to get anal retentive about certain aspects of sharpening and tuning -- he lets them. There was a woman from Google who spent the entire quarter working on her sharpening skills.

Really, that's not a bad thing, though it strikes me as a bit much.

I guess it depends on how soon the student expects to see results from the fruits of his or her labor. I want to get out there and make stuff.

James Ayars
05-01-2006, 11:24 PM
"Another is that James may well think we are all nuts and avoid planes like the plague due to how much work is involved in even making a plane from the "golden era" into something "usable.""

:) Mike, I'm not thinking you guys are nuts at all. I am grateful for everyone being willing to take the time to post a reply to my question. Much to think about but that's ok. I absolutely still want to get a plane. I just have to decide on new or used. I could wait a3 or 4 more months and spring for a Veritas or go sooner and buy used. Hard to decide. The only thing I know for sure is that I will enjoy it and then have to get more of them.

Thanks to everyone for helping me along the path.
James

Brian Kent
06-14-2006, 2:09 AM
This is my first post.
I have really been helped by your discussions of planes on this forum. I have followed the neander threads for a couple of months and have made some initial choices. In order of purchases:

Anant 4 1/2. $39. Learned to fettle. Hardly use it.
Lee Nielson 102i Low Angle Block - $75. Use it every day.
Mujingfang 11" Jack Plane - $31. Use it and love it!
Mujingfang 7" Smoothing Plane - $26. Use it and love it! I am a marimba player so the feel of rosewood (which marimba bars are made from) is wonderful.
Old Stanley #7 - a gift from a great friend - Fettled for hours and when sharp, gives an excellent "fsst" sound when making translucent maple shavings.
Old Stanley #5 Jack - $30 on ebay. Tuned it up and use it as much as any others, but really needs a replacement blade.
Mujingfang 4 1/2" high angle polishing plane - $21. Polishes the hardwood knots that nothing else can touch.

Back-ordered Mujingfang 8 1/2" high angle polish plane - $49. After experiencing its junior cousin, I can't wait until it arrives.
Also back-ordered Mujingfang 1" rabbet plane $21.

Anant bullnose rabbet plane - $39. I guess it has done its job at times but It does not feel right. Very crunchy and squeeky and chattery. Polishing the bottom and sides plus using some beeswax helped but only a little.

So far my collection has cost about $331 plus tax and shipping (not counting the gift) for 10 planes. I am extremely satisfied with the old Stanleys, Mufingjangs, and the $75 LN block. I am not enamoured with the Anants, but they are OK.

Again, thank you for all the discussions that saved me a lot of money even as I experimented.

Brian Kent

Maurice Metzger
06-14-2006, 10:14 AM
Brian, welcome to Sawmill Creek!

Maurice

Larry Rose
06-14-2006, 10:37 AM
James, find a flea market/Junk store or a yard sale and look for older Stanleys. They can be found anywhere for $10 to $30. Go for a #4 or#5 and learn to tune and sharpen them. You will have to do this on a new plane sooner or later. Over the years I've bought enough cheap tools to sink a battle ship (including a next to worthless #3 Anant). The older Stanleys can be made to be very usable.

Roger Nixon
06-14-2006, 2:37 PM
I think much is made of fettling a plane for use--and rightly so. It needs to be reasonably flat, the frog/body needs to fit well.

Too, a Hock replacement blade is a great addition, if for no other reason than the thicker blade is perhaps easier to hone.



Hmmm, I'd like to discuss this with you in another thread sometime, Mike



But--there's always a but when someone starts out so agreeable <g>--if someone "needs" to spend longer than 30 minutes making something other than a fine smoother ready for working with, either they have greater expectations of the plane than need be, or they are going about it wrong.


Thank you, Mike! I don't know what you count in the 30 minutes (rust removal, sharpening, gluing a tote, etc.) but within a couple of hours at most I can turn most bailey type planes from as found to ready to go. In my early stages of handtooling, I used to read posts where people stated they would spend "days" getting a plane "tuned" and I would ask them what they were doing. Mostly it was just blowing smoke but it really confused many folks who wanted to get into hand tools.
I appreciate you made put "a fine smoother" into a different category. All too often the impression is given that every plane is fettled to fine smoother specs.



Every vintage plane, regardless of maker, is bought in a state that it can be made to work better. Great. I agree. But I believe we take them much further toward a state of perfection they were never intended to be, nor need be. Just how did all that furniture get made with planes in such a poor condition, anyway?

Even using a stock blade and chip breaker, any plane is capable of taking .002" shavings in less than 30 minutes. This is a much finer shaving than is required for anything than a fine smoother.

I've used this term, fine smoother, a couple times. So what do I mean? I mean something that on most woods I can skip sanding if I am so inclined. I have never needed to spend more than 1 hour on a modern plane to make it consistently take a .001" shaving, and those attending plane tune-up classes where I have been involved never longer than a couple hours and part of that was shootin' the breeze as to why they were doing what they were doing. But this is only "necessary" for a fine smoother.

We, as plane fettlers in a modern enlightened society, seek making our planes into some state where we measure tolerances of soles with feeler gages on granite surface plates. It's all a bunch of hooey.


Hey, Hey, Hey! I resemble that! :) Actually, a granite surface plate helps me speed up the process by helping me identify problem spots. Note though that the vast majority of bench planes I've owned never needed checking. My process goes, clean, sharpen, adjust, take shavings. Easily 90% of the bench planes I've had were ready to go at this point so I believe that was your point.
I will point out that I would never even start on a plane with serious problems. I've talked to a person who tried to flatten the sole on a plane that had a 1/32" twist in it. I would have pulled the parts off it and trashed the body.




Ok. I've said my peace. My token shot in the dark. Maybe even a bit of dark-sider heresy.

Take care, Mike

I reject your heresy and subsitute my own! :)

Excellent post, Mike. I would also like to point out that Mike is not an "old tools only" guy. I know he has shiny new toys that he uses when they will do a better job.

harry strasil
06-14-2006, 5:53 PM
Nobody must use Woodies or transitional planes I guess.

Maurice Metzger
06-14-2006, 7:13 PM
Jr, after doing a lot of work with a metal jointer, I'm getting very interested in at least one wooden plane. But I guess that's not smoothing...

Maurice

Roger Nixon
06-14-2006, 11:22 PM
Nobody must use Woodies or transitional planes I guess.

I'm getting there, Jr., I'm working my way backward through time gradually. :) It has been harder for me to find decent woodies in the wild than metal planes. I still haven't found a fine woody smoother so I use a Knight coffin. As far as new planes go, I heartily recommend the C&W planes. They are like stepping back 200 years and bringing home a new plane from that era. Right now the plane I covet most is one of their 50º smoothers.

harry strasil
06-15-2006, 1:44 AM
Roger, you probably won't agree with this, but by the nature of the shape of the woody coffin smoothers most of them you will find will be split out on one side or the other.

You can remedy this by making a smoother out of an old fore or trying plane with a nice closed mouth by just cutting it off fore and aft and reworking the front and back so it fits your hand nice. Besides you end up with some nice straight grain beech to remouth other planes with or to make small woody thumb or block planes from.

Deirdre Saoirse Moen
06-15-2006, 1:48 AM
At this point, I only have one woodie I made, a user-made panel raiser (not made by me) that needs some work, and two woodies I'm waiting for. :)

It's just the way the cards fell.

harry strasil
06-15-2006, 1:51 AM
This weekend when I am demoing I am going to take my digital camera along and I will set out all my demoing planes on my bench and snap a pic of the lot to show off LOL.

Also going to remouth my 5 ft jointer if the weather permits.

Mike Henderson
06-15-2006, 2:14 AM
Harry, I have a couple of wooden planes. They have good thick cast steel laminated blades, hold an edge well, and work well once they're set up. I find them harder to set up than a metal plane so they aren't the first planes I reach for. Because of this set up difficulty, I would not recommend them to someone as a first set of planes.

Regarding transitional planes, maybe it's just me, but all the transitional planes I've ever owned or used were not very good planes. I would definitely not recommend them to anyone except a collector (who's just going to put them on a shelf and not use them).

Mike

Roger Nixon
06-15-2006, 1:29 PM
Roger, you probably won't agree with this, but by the nature of the shape of the woody coffin smoothers most of them you will find will be split out on one side or the other.

You can remedy this by making a smoother out of an old fore or trying plane with a nice closed mouth by just cutting it off fore and aft and reworking the front and back so it fits your hand nice. Besides you end up with some nice straight grain beech to remouth other planes with or to make small woody thumb or block planes from.


I agree 100%, Harry. People will hammer the wedge tight and leave it there and the eventual expansion/contraction of the wood will blow out the weakest spot which is the cheek. I haven't found many good fore or try planes either and I'm keeping the ones I have to be used as is :) .

Anyhow, that is my excuse to buy the C&W :) .