School sued over TS accident

[Charles McKinley]

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/9066906/detail.html

A student that lost his fingers on a table saw in shop class is sueing the school district.

Anyone care to guess howmuch longer there is still a shop class?

Those in the Beaver Falls, PA area may have some equipment to bid on soon.:(

[CPeter James]

Good location for a "Saw Stop" to CYA. I tried to get the local HS to put one in when they were equipping the brand new shop, but the know-it-all shop teacher did not want one. He knows it all, but doesn't belong to any shop teacher associations or woodworking groups or read any woodworking mags or visit any forums. Also, doesn't like me much as I try to give free advise and he is intimidated by it. Kind of too bad.

CPeter

[Michael Ballent]

Good location for a "Saw Stop" to CYA. I tried to get the local HS to put one in when they were equipping the brand new shop, but the know-it-all shop teacher did not want one. He knows it all, but doesn't belong to any shop teacher associations or woodworking groups or read any woodworking mags or visit any forums. Also, doesn't like me much as I try to give free advise and he is intimidated by it. Kind of too bad.

CPeter

CPeter,

You know... being the devious person that I am... I would go to the principal and let them know that there are other options in machinery other than a "traditional" tablesaw. He may be the shop teacher, but he does have a boss ;) Also the fact that you have brought up the SawStop to the shop teacher, actually makes him even more liable for not bringing it in, in the event of a TS accident. I am not a lawyer, but they are pretty good at sniffing things like this out.

Of course when I took shop class way back when, the teacher would not even let us use the TS, it was all hand tools back then. :cool:

Still to this day I always use my blade guard and I have a SawStop, even when I had my DeWalt hybrid, I used the blade guard. I know that the protection is there in the SawStop, but I still do not want to make contact with the blade.

[Mike Parzych]

It seems unclear from the story if the saw had the blade guard on. The student was "using safety procedures" whatever that means - like a push stick.....or not?

[Dev Emch]

Due to the aggressive nature of lawyers and the moron mentality of some students, here is one place where the saw stop should be mandatory. Furthermore, all students taking shop class should 1). Sign and have the parents sign an indemity contract before allowing any class to begin. 2). Require the students to take instruction *AND* pass both a written and practical exam for each item of power machinery. For those with the knack, its a minor inconvenence. For those with two left hands (or right hands if your left handed), it may prevent them from taking the class and in the end, were all better off.

[Dev Emch]

It seems unclear from the story if the saw had the blade guard on. The student was "using safety procedures" whatever that means - like a push stick.....or not?

SAFETY PROCEDURES! Truely you jest! Guys who nickname is lefty are those who never read or follow safety procedures. You dont need to be a rocket engineer to figure this much out! Somebody screwed up. Fingers are now independent agents and the original owner of those digits is filing a law suit.

[Ian Barley]

SAFETY PROCEDURES! Truely you jest! Guys who nickname is lefty are those who never read or follow safety procedures. You dont need to be a rocket engineer to figure this much out! Somebody screwed up. Fingers are now independent agents and the original owner of those digits is filing a law suit.
Dev

I think Mike was just stating the facts as shown in the article. And fwiw I have a friend who has helped me out a few times. He is a very very long way from dumb but happens to be left handed. Seeing him trying to use an SCMS left handed educated me into just how right handed most tools are.

Anyway - in this instance nobody is gonna come off well. The school has a problem, the kid has a problem. I may be naive about it but the legal system should be there to sort out whether there is cause for one of them helping the other to deal with the problem in the future. If the results of the case ever get the same publicity it would be interesting to know what it is.

[Lee DeRaud]

If the results of the case ever get the same publicity it would be interesting to know what it is.Would indeed be interesting, but most likely outcome is a hefty out-of-court settlement negotiated between/among the lawyers, with a confidentiality clause for all concerned. The lead time for actually getting a personal-injury case to court pretty much guarantees it.

[Charles McKinley]

The kids and his parents are claiming the guard was not on. I will report back if the outcome becomes public. If any of you are familiar with Pittsburgh news this will probably be right at the top of the news just behind d' STILLERS!

[Lee DeRaud]

The kids and his parents are claiming the guard was not on.But they're also claiming the kid followed "all safety procedures". Does the phrase "trying to have it both ways" ring a bell?

[Michael Ballent]

But they're also claiming the kid followed "all safety procedures". Does the phrase "trying to have it both ways" ring a bell?

From my travels on various forums over the years there seems to be two camps on TS safety. One camp will not use the TS unless the guard is in place, and the other views the guard as unsafe refuse to use the TS with one on. So based on which camp the teacher/adminstration sits in they were following all the safety rules/procedures.

I am in the won't use the TS unless the guard is in place. :D

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Everyone is Born right handed. Only the Great Ones overcome it.


On a more serious note:
************************************************** *
"The boy's mother says his pinky finger has been transplanted as his new middle finger and he now uses his ring finger as his thumb."
*********************************************
That's gotta suck. Things like that tend to leave a permanent scar on the mind too.

[Jim Hinze]

This is just another example of our letigous society. Shop class (espically wood shop) poses an inherant danger. If Mom and Dad agreed to have the child take this class (I'm assuming there was a release otherwise the school would be completely liable) then they have no grounds to sue....

It's like me playing football in high-school and having an unfortunate accident (becoming paralyzed) and blaming the school for my injury...

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. Accidents happen,it doesn't mean that the school is at fault!

[Dave Fifield]

I recall reading about this case somewhere else. In that article they clearly described that the TS guard had been broken and so was removed from the saw. The TS should not have been in use. The school district will most likely settle this out of court IMO.

Dave F.

[Ian Barley]

This is just another example of our letigous society. Shop class (espically wood shop) poses an inherant danger. If Mom and Dad agreed to have the child take this class (I'm assuming there was a release otherwise the school would be completely liable) then they have no grounds to sue....

It's like me playing football in high-school and having an unfortunate accident (becoming paralyzed) and blaming the school for my injury...

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. Accidents happen,it doesn't mean that the school is at fault!

I have a great deal of sympathy with your viewpoint Jim - BUT (there is always a but) if you had been playing football at HS and the referee failed to control the game properly or the school failed to maintain the goalpost padding which contributed to your injury, would that make the position different?

If the parents signed a release to enable their child to take a properly supervised shop class and the class wasn't properly supervised then do they have a case? If the release form undertook that at all times all of the equipment manufacturers safety measures would be in place and they weren't does that change matters?

The problem is, no matter how honourable or otherwise any of the participants is a young man is going to go through life at some level of disdvantage because of this event. It may be that an exploration of the facts indicates that as being nobodies fault except himself, in which case we should regret that it happened and do nothing else. The purpose of the legal process SHOULD be exactly that - an exploration of the facts. Maybe that is not the way it works in practice and that is a shame, but a rush to judgement rarely helps clarify things.

[Joe Chritz]

Dev

I may be naive about it but the legal system should be there to sort out whether there is cause for one of them helping the other to deal with the problem in the future. If the results of the case ever get the same publicity it would be interesting to know what it is.

That may be the way it is supposed to work but..... it isn't the way it is. Having had the pleasure a few times to be involved in civil suits it always comes down to what is cheapest. If the school can win for 2 million or settle for 1 million, what do you think will happen?

The school has liability for all school activities. If they are "responsible" for this accident depends on lots of things. I don't expect to hear anything about the outcome either. "Child cuts fingers off" sells papers, district settles quietly doesn't.

Lawyers and media. Scrapping the bottom of the pool.

Joe - Off to wash hands

[Robert Mayer]

As much as I hate lawyers I have to agree that the shop teacher should have maintained a guard or overhead guard in place.

Of course then again the kid should have known better than to stick his hand near the blade.

spinning action + pointy teeth = damage to soft skin

[Dev Emch]

Reminds me of a quote by Frank Klaus....


You see that red area? That is to tell you to keep your body body parts out of that area. That is because the saw blade does not know the difference between wood and meat.

[fRED mCnEILL]

The problem here is that a "safe" tablesaw is available but the school wouldn't use it.

You could see this comming when sawstop was introduced. The inventors couldn't get the big companies interested as they were afraid of litigation. So as a group they ignored it. All well and fine except the inventors then marketed the Sawstop tablesaw. Now anyone who doesn't provided one for thier students/ workers is in danger of a lawsuit because they didn't provide a safety feature that is commercially availalble. I wouldn't be surprised to see the saw manufacturer in this case also be involved.

Fred. Mc.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Due to the aggressive nature of lawyers and the moron mentality of some students, here is one place where the saw stop should be mandatory. Furthermore, all students taking shop class should 1). Sign and have the parents sign an indemity contract before allowing any class to begin. 2). Require the students to take instruction *AND* pass both a written and practical exam for each item of power machinery. ???????????????????????? For those with the knack, its a minor inconvenence. For those with two left hands (or right hands if your left handed), it may prevent them from taking the class and in the end, were all better off.

Way to go Dev.

[CPeter James]

This is a true story that happened in Texas.

A drunk, unlicensed driver sideswiped a propane tanker truck and caused it to roll over killing some people in another car. The relatives of the deceased filed suit against everybody the could find. The drunk had no insurance, so nothing to gain there. The trucker had insurance so they went after him, but guess who paid the most. The manufacturer of the propane tank. Did it rupture, no. Did it contribute to the accident, no. Why did they sue the tank manufacturer, he had the most insurance (PRODUCT LIABILITY). Now his rates went so high, he was forced out of business.

I would say that in the case at hand, there are plenty of real deep pockets to go after, the school district, the teacher, the saw manufacturer, the person who specified the shop equipment (often a vendor).

CPeter

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Lawyers and media. Scrapping the bottom of the pool. Joe - Off to wash hands


As much as I hate lawyers I have to agree that the shop teacher should have maintained a guard or overhead guard in place.
OUCH you guys that is un-deserved.
Lumping all lawyers into the same bag of characters who through their own personal quirks and failings (not their profession) managed to offend you is most unkind.

That line from Shakespear "First kill all the lawyers" is always taken out of context. The King in the play was inquiring of his advisors how to crush the people and lord it over then with an iron fist. The advisor said "First kill all the lawyers."

[Michael Ballent]

OUCH you guys that is un-deserved.
Lumping all lawyers into the same bag of characters who through their own personal quirks and failings (not their profession) managed to offend you is most unkind.

That line from Shakespear "First kill all the lawyers" is always taken out of context. The King in the play was inquiring of his advisors how to crush the people and lord it over then with an iron fist. The advisor said "First kill all the lawyers."

I think the sentiment stems from the ambulance chasers. Of course the only lawyer I like would be the one that is representing me ;) :D But I have to agree, there are good ones out there and bad ones, unfortunately the bad ones are the ones that make the papers.

Now lets talk about used car salesmen ;)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

OR
It is possible that the propane company had a poorly maintained truck on the road which due to the maintainance issue was prone to instability or that the driver failed to balance his load - Etc Etc Etc. If those things were so then the trucking company may indeed have been a proper defendant.

It's also true that Human Nature often interferes in jury deliberations. If they see a pooe victim of a horrid circumstance or accident suffering they often try very hard to make them as right as the can. That means they gotta take money from someone.



So they make the rich fat-cat businessman pay. It's human nature at work.

However, there is not one reasonable argument against not naming the trucking company as a defendant in such a case. Failure to do so is per se malptactice.
Aside from that, the jury is the ONLY proper fact finder. The question of whether the company had a role to play in the harm and therefore the reparations is a qquestion entirely for the jury - not the lawyer.

[Doug Shepard]

Yeow. It's stuff like this that make me appreciate (in hindsight) my Nazi woodshop teacher. That guy wouldn't let anyone work on anything without the buddy system. You couldn't even wield a screwdriver in his shop without your partner observing you to make sure you weren't about to break one of his numerous safety rules or do anything that looked inherently stupid. Dont recall any accidents in his classes though so I guess it worked.

[Chris Giles]

I gotta tell you guys, this is a sixteen year-old boy who is going to go thru the rest of his life with a deformed hand, and I will not hold a child this young responsible for the accident that did this. I dislike this sort of personal injury litigation intensely, but if that boy was my son, I would take it very personally, and would do everything in my power to hold every responsible adult at, or connected with that school responsible for his injury in any way I could. It's as much an emotional response as a logical one. My sympathies are with the boy and his family.

[Dev Emch]

OR
It is possible that the propane company had a poorly maintained truck on the road which due to the maintainance issue was prone to instability or that the driver failed to balance his load - Etc Etc Etc. If those things were so then the trucking company may indeed have been a proper defendant.

It's also true that Human Nature often interferes in jury deliberations. If they see a pooe victim of a horrid circumstance or accident suffering they often try very hard to make them as right as the can. That means they gotta take money from someone.



So they make the rich fat-cat businessman pay. It's human nature at work.

However, there is not one reasonable argument against not naming the trucking company as a defendant in such a case. Failure to do so is per se malptactice.
Aside from that, the jury is the ONLY proper fact finder. The question of whether the company had a role to play in the harm and therefore the reparations is a qquestion entirely for the jury - not the lawyer.

Jeezzzzz.....
First of all, Cliff, you need to RE-Read CPeters post. The party who had to pay the most was a truck BODY manufacturer. Propane tanks dont have motors nor do they have wheels. I am surprised they didnt sue Neptune or Badger. After all, these companies have excellent product liability insurance programs and they built the FLOW METERS used on the truck. Never mind that they had absolutely nothing to do with the accident... that is beside the point... they have the deepest pockets.

Its a common known fact that lawyers often pursue that party with the deepest pockets. Its a legal art form to tie an innocent party with deep pockets into the current liability case and then extract damages.

Having been involved with a number of lawyers as well as the police, all I can say is that the uncomplementary comments above are in my mind warrented. I would rather have a root cannel with no pain killers than negotiate with cops and lawyers.

Woodworking companies in the country have paid a hefty price for this type of nonsense. One manufactuer of classical machines such as planers and shapers, etc. was sued out of existance for this very reason were arguing about. Years earlier, the previous management had purchased a minor share in another company as an investment. This company built radio frequency glue driers of some sort. Well some genius stuck his head or hands or some other body part into this machine and something very bad happened. Who knows, maybe his future born children will have green skin and three eyes. At any rate, the lawyers came after the woodworking machinery company. Appeartantly they were the wealthiest single investor in this company and hence had the deepest pockets. It was a very unpleasant surprise to the new management to learn that they actually owned a share of this other company and now were named co-defendents in a liability law suit.

So if your a lawyer, dont ask for any sympathy from me.:rolleyes:

[Dev Emch]

I gotta tell you guys, this is a sixteen year-old boy who is going to go thru the rest of his life with a deformed hand, and I will not hold a child this young responsible for the accident that did this. I dislike this sort of personal injury litigation intensely, but if that boy was my son, I would take it very personally, and would do everything in my power to hold every responsible adult at, or connected with that school responsible for his injury in any way I could. It's as much an emotional response as a logical one. My sympathies are with the boy and his family.

Point well taken. But is precisely this type of situation and subsequent actions that have led one school district after another to banish wood shops from the school program. Knowing that the school district will be culpable for this sort of damage, if I were a principle or superintendant, I would sign the extinction order ASAP and convert the shop into a class room for modern sex eduction, personal hygine education and pottery class.

[Dev Emch]

I think the sentiment stems from the ambulance chasers. Of course the only lawyer I like would be the one that is representing me ;) :D But I have to agree, there are good ones out there and bad ones, unfortunately the bad ones are the ones that make the papers.

Now lets talk about used car salesmen ;)

Nevermind used car salesmen.... I got a better bunch to hang from the yard arm.:D

USED WOODWORKING MACHINERY DEALERS...... dont get me started!

[Marc Ward]

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/9066906/detail.html

A student that lost his fingers on a table saw in shop class is sueing the school district.

This is not the only one...
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=387678

[Dev Emch]

This is not the only one...
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=387678
Jeezzzzzz! First of all, someone explain to me why the POLICE ordered the saw not to be used? The on-duty copper is there to keep junior from toking on the reefer in the boys room. Folks, this is a CIVIL MATTER and not a CRIMINAL MATTER and cops are not paid to enforce civil issues. Where in the criminal statutes does it state that a table saw cannot be used without a guard? Would that be a misdeamor or a felony? If its a felony, are you going to prohibit this person from ever buying another table saw? I can see it now. You call up amazon dot com to place an order for a new table saw. Once you pay for it, then you have to fill out a background check like that for buying a gun and then you have to wait five days prior to picking it up. Oh yah, you will need to register the serial number of the saw with the BATF for future reference. Or should we change the name to Bureu of Alcohol, Tabacco, Firearms and Woodworking Machinery.

Then there is the question of what consitutes a functional or working guard? I did not know that these things had lots of moving parts, diagonostic software and electric motors. Well maybe the ones from Martin but not for the other saws....

And $50,000 damages for loss of companionship? I think I will saw my fingers off and sue the maker of my table saw because I have not had a date in a few weeks! Yahhhhh, thats the ticket. Blame my girlie issues on the table saw. I knew it was not my fault.:rolleyes:

I just have to shake my head in total disbelief...

[Ken Belisle]

What if this ACCIDENT had happened in his father's workshop?? Or his grandfather's?? (if either had one) Would there still be a lawsuit??

Just a thought...............

[Dev Emch]

What if this ACCIDENT had happened in his father's workshop?? Or his grandfather's?? (if either had one) Would there still be a lawsuit??

Just a thought...............

Excellent Point! And this brings up yet another sernio. What if a fellow creeker has the accident in one of our shops? What if we are showing a young-in the ropes because they have no other opportunity to learn this material. Some of you guys have kids that come by to learn woodworking. Its like opening up a Pandoras Box!

[John Bailey]

I don't know about the laws in other states, but in Michigan schools are immune to most tort liability. To be liable, a school must be "grossly negligent." This is a very high legal standard. Maybe some of the Creeker lawyers can chime in on that one. Fortunately, in my 16 yrs. of being a high school principal, we only had one serious shop accident. It was a table saw accident. It was a pretty bad cut, but no permanent injury. We had a separate discipline for the shop. Any serious safety infraction meant you were out of the class.<o>

I always liked to use the "which side" lawyer test. I would always ask myself, which side would I like to be the lawyer for. If the saw was being used without the guard, I would think a case of "gross negligence" could be made.

John
</o>

[Joe Jansen]

I wonder if the saw stop would be a practicle alternative in a high school setting. Once the students knew a hot dog would trigger the thing. You know they would be trying it every day.

Joe

[John Kain]

I wonder if the saw stop would be a practicle alternative in a high school setting. Once the students knew a hot dog would trigger the thing. You know they would be trying it every day.

Joe
Yeah, and then they can pony up for the cost of a new brake and new blade.....

[Jim Hinze]

I have a great deal of sympathy with your viewpoint Jim - BUT (there is always a but) if you had been playing football at HS and the referee failed to control the game properly or the school failed to maintain the goalpost padding which contributed to your injury, would that make the position different?

If the parents signed a release to enable their child to take a properly supervised shop class and the class wasn't properly supervised then do they have a case? If the release form undertook that at all times all of the equipment manufacturers safety measures would be in place and they weren't does that change matters?

The problem is, no matter how honourable or otherwise any of the participants is a young man is going to go through life at some level of disdvantage because of this event. It may be that an exploration of the facts indicates that as being nobodies fault except himself, in which case we should regret that it happened and do nothing else. The purpose of the legal process SHOULD be exactly that - an exploration of the facts. Maybe that is not the way it works in practice and that is a shame, but a rush to judgement rarely helps clarify things.

Ian,

I can only speak for myself of course, no I would not sue... If I chose to get on the field after seeing the conditions... my fault. If I chose to use the tablesaw after seeing the conditions (no guard, dull blade, whatever other situation....) my fault. It's a matter of personal responsibility as much as it is negleanance or anything else....

People in this country sue at the drop of a hat, no matter the reason, no matter who's responsibility... they see it as a "pay day"... that has to stop.

Another point in an other thread, had it happened in his grandfaters shop or his dad's shop, it would not result in a law suit, nor would it result in headlines....

[Dino Makropoulos]

The kid lost 3 fingers.

The School district, the town, the state, the federal government and OSHA
knew about the dangerous of the tablesaw.
How do you allow a teenager to use the most dangerous tool ever?

If I was the judge, I ask the king Norm:
How much for 3 of your fingers?:D :D
Then, I order all the above to pay Norm's price to the kid.:eek: :eek:

Poetic justice.:cool:

[Ron Jones near Indy]

Yes, the Saw Stop may have prevented serious injury in this case. I wonder how many students, learning a false sense of security with the Saw Stop and therefore not learning proper safety procedures as well as they should, will later be injured when using a different saw. Just a thought. Not really sure how I view the situation.

Also, it is my understanding that having the parents sign a liability waiver would be a waste of a good piece of paper. The student would be able to sue on his own after reaching his 18th birthday. Negligence would have to be proved in either suit.

[Lee DeRaud]

The School district, the town, the state, the federal government and OSHA
knew about the dangerous of the tablesaw.
How do you allow a teenager to use the most dangerous tool ever?For the same reason we teach them to drive: so they'll actually learn how to do it properly. Sheesh.

Wanna fix this problem? Easy: just ban tablesaws. That will make something else "the most dangerous tool ever". Ban that. Repeat as needed.

Maybe we can all just raise pet beavers to gnaw our furniture out of logs for us.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

Maybe we can all just raise pet beavers to gnaw our furniture out of logs for us.[/QUOTE]


Interesting idea--beavers. I have used trained termites. Stubborn little guys. Very hard to train.

I know, this is a serious thread, but . . . . I have been a shop/technology teacher for 37+ years (thank God no serious accidents) and I KNOW some kids would stick their finger in a Saw Stop just to see if it works. And then they would would try find a way to avoid financial responsibility for repairs.

[David Mueller]

Excellent Point! And this brings up yet another sernio. What if a fellow creeker has the accident in one of our shops? What if we are showing a young-in the ropes because they have no other opportunity to learn this material. Some of you guys have kids that come by to learn woodworking. Its like opening up a Pandoras Box!

That's why I won't even lend out a screwdriver without my $2MM umbrella
liability insurance policy. :eek:

[Ian Barley]

Ian,

I can only speak for myself of course, no I would not sue... If I chose to get on the field after seeing the conditions... my fault.....

And that was exactly my sympathy with your viewpoint, but (there I go again) I can't help thinking that my 15 year old self was less able to assess risk and reward balance than my 45 year old self is. The law (regardless of how much anybdy may hate it) applies a different standard of resonsibility to children than adults. This was a child and was supposed to be in the supervision of adults.

Neither you nor I know all the facts pertinent to this case. Maybe the kid was goofing around and ignoring direct safety instructions, Maybe the shop teacher didn't give any safety instructions. Maybe the kid thought it was OK to use the saw without a guard because his Grandpa does it all the time and the guy in the plaid shirt with the big glasses on TV never uses a guard does he?

As far as the same thing happening in my shop? Larry Browning visited with me earlier this year. While he was here we took the chance for Larry to try two dfferent ROSs so that he could get some sense of the difference between them. I watched him while he did it to ensure that he used them safely - sanders!!

If he had wanted to use the TS I would have shown him its operation and then asked him to demonstrate to me that he had understood the critical factors. I would then have watched him until I was happy that he really knew what he was doing.

I very occasionally have a couple of guys who help me deal with excess workload. When they start work on any machine I tell them what is important to know about that machine, show them where all the switching is and what the guarding requirement is and then watch them for the first few cycles of that machine. If they are using the TS I make sure that I am in a positon where I can periodically observe that they are doing the right thing. I have never been one but I suspect that this is what a shop teacher should do. Neither you or I know whether, in this case, they did.

I do not think either that the family was right or wrong to take this action. I simply don't have enough information to make that call and neither does any of us. The real shame is that a kid is gonna grow up disfigured and that at least some people will perpetuate the myth that woodworking has to be dangeous because of his disfigurement. It doesn't.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Hear Hear - my thoughts exactly.

The Automobile is the single number one most dangerous tool - ever - right there in second place behind the ENGINEER'S MECHANICAL PENCIL.

[Jim Hinze]

I do not think either that the family was right or wrong to take this action. I simply don't have enough information to make that call and neither does any of us. The real shame is that a kid is gonna grow up disfigured and that at least some people will perpetuate the myth that woodworking has to be dangeous because of his disfigurement. It doesn't.

Ian, I agree...

We certanily do not have enough info to make an intelligent assessment... and his disfigurement is truely tragic...

I guess I just cringe when the first thing remarked is "Law Suit"...

[Lee DeRaud]

The Automobile is the single number one most dangerous tool - ever - right there in second place behind the ENGINEER'S MECHANICAL PENCIL.Gee, weren't you the guy whining just yesterday about gratuitous insults to lawyers? Ok, you don't like technology, we got it the first time. Move on.

[Dev Emch]

Hear Hear - my thoughts exactly.

The Automobile is the single number one most dangerous tool - ever - right there in second place behind the ENGINEER'S MECHANICAL PENCIL.

If you have ever driven a Kenworth or Peterbilt or maybe a lowly Freightliner;), then you know that the most dangerous tool about is a soccor mom driving an urban packaderm like an Expedition or Highlander and a pile of screaming kids with a cell phone in one hand and a big mac in the other while blindly and unkowingly cutting off an 80,000 pound truck! They make drivers of these monsters get CDL tickets and take special exams. They should work on training the other drivers better and punishing them more akin to how commercial drivers get punished. If I cut off a kenworth bobtail with a 2000 gallon propane tank and it flips over, heck yes its going to smush anything under foot! Its either that or you can heat your house with a pile of Blue Rhino gas tanks from Lowes. I think it would be more liabilous and risky to carry twenty blue rhino gas bottles in the urban packaderm than would having your gas delievered in the bobtail.

[Dev Emch]

The Automobile is the single number one most dangerous tool - ever - right there in second place behind the ENGINEER'S MECHANICAL PENCIL.

Is this before or after you tape feathers on the pencil to stablize their flight to the dart board?:D

[Michael Gibbons]

You know we had a lot less accidental poisioning when we taught our kids not to play or touch medicine bottles. Remember when the bottles had a skull and crossbones on them? It meant bad news. They stopped that for what,because it was scaring children? What happens when SawStop gets a faulty batch of electronic brakes and it fails and you get cut anyway? We place too much emphasis on technology and not enough on plane old instruction and common sense. Why do the tablesaw companies make saws with removable guards? Norm doesn't use one and after 18 years still has all his digits.HMMM? Fact of the matter, the kid put his hand into the spinning blade. No one else, just him. I wonder if my mother could have sued the city everytime I fell off my bike and skinned my knee because they put that hard cement on the side walk? It's ridiculous. Accidents happen, it's just life.

[Greg Tatum]

Since we live in a mostly free society, people have the right to bring suit for whatever they feel a greivance for...I have no problem with this. What I do have a problem with is that most of these suits would probably just be wishful venting were it not for the interferance of lawyers...if they don't take a case, it would go nowhere...as for this case, if there was neglegence on the part of the shop teacher to keep all/any tools in proper working order then the school should pay.

now let's consider this...has it been proven that a blade guard would have prevented these injuries? Hard to say. Some stock blade guards wouldn't .....you can still slide a thumb and finger under them when pushing stock or reaching to clear the off-cut(even when you know you shouldn't be)

Dev, you said, "cops are not paid to enforce civil issues."
Sure they are...think traffic cop, parade route watcher-outer, demonstration tear gas canister shooter and tax payer funded high school hall monitor. These are all civil enforcement duties.

Like a traffic cop telling you not to move your vehicle after running over a box of Krispy Kremes...high school cop has the same inflated scense of power when it comes to accidents at school....least that's what I think and I may be wrong or at least not completly right

question: who opposes tort reform the most?

[Dev Emch]

Dev, you said, "cops are not paid to enforce civil issues."
Sure they are...think traffic cop, parade route watcher-outer, demonstration tear gas canister shooter and tax payer funded high school hall monitor. These are all civil enforcement duties.

Like a traffic cop telling you not to move your vehicle after running over a box of Krispy Kremes...high school cop has the same inflated scense of power when it comes to accidents at school....least that's what I think and I may be wrong or at least not completly right

question: who opposes tort reform the most?

Greg...
Let me introduce you to some legal architecture. Our laws are fundamentally broken into two sets of code. You have the criminal code and you have the civil code. They are unique and independent bodies of law with little overlap.

Punishment for violation of a criminal statute involves probation or jail time. Of late, you also have some minor fines and you can have jail time and fines should the judge decide that to be the form of punishment.

Often the burden of proof is radically different between civil procedings and criminal proceedings as evidenced with the two cases brought against O.J.Simpson. In the murder trail, a criminal violation punishable by life in jail or by lethal means, the burden of proof is overwhelming. In the civil case, a charge of wrongful death, the burden of proof is less so. Thus, he was aquited on the criminal charge but found guilty on the civil charge. You have to understand that wrongful death is not a charge of homicide. There is no homicide in civil proceedings.

In a more familar case, I personally mixed the two. I had a very unpleasant neighbor steal 350 feet of chain link fence and throw it out. When I tried to confront her as to why, she refused to answer the phone and instead filed charges of harasment against me. Her theft of 350 feet of fence is considered a civil issue as we had hired an engineer to do a survey and there were questions of an easement violation. In the end, she was wrong and is now facing a lawsuit by me; however, I have absolutely no legal recourse against her within the criminal system. On the other hand, she had ever right to file criminal charges of harasment against me. Regardless of who is right or wrong and regardless of what a civil proceeding determines. It took 6 trips in front of an actual DA and judge to finally settle this in an acceptable solution. What this exercise has done was to raise the hair on my back and dig my feet into the ground. Had it been any other situation, I would merely forget about it. But now she has a real honest of goodness law suit against her.

So as you can see, standing in an intersection performing a civil duty such as controlling traffic is not even close to the same use of the word CIVIL as it relates to say a law suit or CIVIL PROCEEDING. These are two different contexts of the same word which mean two totally different things. So I stand behind what I said. I cannot figure out why the cop red taged the saw. He had no legal right to do so as far as I can figure and he may even place the schools position in jepody.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Gee, weren't you the guy whining just yesterday about gratuitous insults to lawyers? Ok, you don't like technology, we got it the first time. Move on.

That wasn't an insult to anyone at all on any level.
I mean that. It simply was not a negative in any way.
I'm confused over your reply.

The engineer's pencil has designed every single weapon of war ever automobile etc., etc., ad nausium.

It was a common joke among us engineers back in the day of the mechanical pencil and drawing board. Yes, I was a Drawing Board engineer before the entry of Computers.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

the most dangerous tool about is a soccor mom driving an urban packaderm like an Expedition or Highlander and a pile of screaming kids with a cell phone in one hand and a big mac in the other while blindly and unkowingly cutting off an 80,000 pound truck!

They indeed rank as among the planets most scariest critters. How about the way they back up in parking lots?. Pedal to the floor in reverse.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Is this before or after you tape feathers on the pencil to stablize their flight to the dart board?:D

I tnink before.
Darts. Hmmm there is still use for my old pencils after all.

[Lee DeRaud]

That wasn't an insult to anyone at all on any level.
I mean that. It simply was not a negative in any way.
I'm confused over your reply.

The engineer's pencil has designed every single weapon of war ever automobile etc., etc., ad nausium.No, the engineer's pencil never designed anything: it's just another tool to be used (or mis-used) by the hand of a human being. Your comment was indeed insulting to the people who use that particular tool, because the designs they create come from their minds, not some inanimate object. To ignore the good and concentrate only on the bad (through your personal good/bad filter, no less) is exactly the same as someone saying "all lawyers are evil bottom-feeding bungholes".

And your persistent tendency to attribute human characteristics to inanimate objects is getting extremely annoying. Enough already.

[Dev Emch]

That wasn't an insult to anyone at all on any level.
I mean that. It simply was not a negative in any way.
I'm confused over your reply.

The engineer's pencil has designed every single weapon of war ever automobile etc., etc., ad nausium.

It was a common joke among us engineers back in the day of the mechanical pencil and drawing board. Yes, I was a Drawing Board engineer before the entry of Computers.

Dont forget that the same pencil and green engineers pad also created such items as the CAT scanner, orthopedic implants, pacemakers, the EKG recorder, the X-Ray machine and it created the airplane as we know it today. If you want a safer ride than an airplane, then you need to hop an escalator.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Dont forget that the same pencil and green engineers pad also created such items as the CAT scanner, orthopedic implants, pacemakers, the EKG recorder, the X-Ray machine and it created the airplane as we know it today. If you want a safer ride than an airplane, then you need to hop an escalator. And the Cat D4 and the Backhoe and a whole boat load of other fun toys - including boats planes trains and automobiles.

I used to make weapons & weapons systems.

[Ken Salisbury]

This thread is getting way outta hand. Lets be civil and show some respect. For those who can't - go out in the shop and make some sawdust.

Sorry - I'm in a bad mood today.


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[Dennis McDonaugh]

This thread is getting way outta hand. Lets be civil and show some respect. For those who can't - go out in the shop and make some sawdust.

Sorry - I'm in a bad mood today.


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This would be a lot better discussion in a bar room with a beer in hand.....