Replica Box Mitre Planes - Uk Maker

[Gary M Kramer]

Following some interest in the work I am currently doing I am making a set of 3 Georgian box mitre planes if anyone on the forum would like to see them please see www.picturetrail.com/garykramer (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/www.picturetrail.com/garykramer) and look in album number 2. In case anyone asks - no I am not running a business its a hobby. I would be interested to know what you think. You may have to cut and paste the link into your browser.

http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL434/1093670/6915920/139425280.jpg

This is a box mitre plane measuring approx 11" X 3.5" and is a copy of a Georgian (1790-1825) plane that I bought some years ago. I liked the design and decided to make a replica for my own interest.

Here is a second one I have just completed - it measures approx 9.5" X 2.5" and is a more common size for early box mitre planes.

http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL434/1093670/6915920/140579921.jpg

I have also just completed a miniature version that is 5.5" X 1.25" and I will post some pictures of all 3 planes along with their newly fitted blades in the next week or so.

Regards Gary <!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

[Gary M Kramer]

Not only great results, but great documentation of the process! The only thing I wish you had included is some photos as the peening was progressing. Those who have not seen the process would find it interesting that that ugly clump of hammered metal could be filed out to those nice dovetails.

Two questions:
1) What is the screw on the back of the original. I saw you mention adding a strike button--is that all that is. Is the slot in it just because that is the material the maker had on hand, but no function of the slot?
2) What was your final finish schedule for the brass? I took my brass shoulder plane up through 600 paper, then buffed on felt wheel with compound, but it is too shiny for my tastes. So I am wonder what level of scracth to add back to the surface.

Please repost this as a separate thread. The Shepherd Tool thread is getting old, and many who would love to see this work may not be following that. FWIW, the link in your post did not work as is--it prepended www.sawmillcreek.org (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/) to your url. I don't know if that is something about how you posted it, or a temporary glitch in the forum software. I noticed that it did not "reply with quotes" as usual when I sent this, so there may be some forum software glitches in progress.

Hello Alex (hope I have your name right)

Thankyou for sending the reply to my other post - I coipied it over here so other people can read it - I hope that is okay with you.

To answer your questions - I have taken pictures of the peened metal surfaces before they are filed and sanded but the surface being bright metal the resulting pictures are not very clear - I will try again as I am making a batch of 12 box mitre planes in the next few weeks. There is a stage where you have beaten the metal for an hour or so and you think to yourself "this cant recover from this beating" but once you attack the metal with a file and some coarse grit it looks good.

1. Yes it is a strike button - I have fitted them to the three planes I have made so far (will photograph them soon for you to see). The button is a cheese head bolt with a coarse screw thread. I fit mine really tight and make a cut into the thread so it acts like a self tapping screw and cuts its own thread. I also make the hole ion the infill a counter bore rather than a counter sink and fit it into a 2 part epoxy resin.

2. Finishing - I tend to work through the grits 60, 80, 120, 160, 200, 250, 400 and then 600 wet and dry finish off with metal polish on a very fine grade wire wool. I find that most machinery like linishers, belt sanders, saws, polishers tend to be too aggressive and you can loose crisp edges or over do the effect - better to do it by hand - I just use a piece of 4" X 2" as a sanding block and a lot of elbow grease + sweat. People here in the UK are moving away from highly polished brass and find "aged patina" of dull brass is better. I know plane makers who are now using compounds as diverse as ammonia and gun blueing to actually age the metal rather than highly polishing. I hope that helps. If I can help any further please let me know.

Best wishes

Gary M Kramer
West Sussex, UK

[Tim Barker]

Thanks for posting your planes. I enjoyed reading through the process.

Tim

[Gary M Kramer]

Thanks for posting your planes. I enjoyed reading through the process.

Tim

Hello Tim

No problems at all - glad you enjoyed reading the about the process
of plane making.

Regards Gary

[Gary M Kramer]

Here is a picture of the three box mitre planes that I have made to date. The blades have just been engraved and fitted this morning. The blades were made for me by Mr Darryl Hutchinson the UK based plane maker - he made a very good job of them as I am sure you will agree.

http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL434/1093670/6915920/142292102.jpg


Here is a picture of the original plane that I used to make the replicas from. The first plane that I made is also shown. The planes measure approx 10.5" X 2.5"

http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL434/1093670/6915920/142291521.jpg



The smallest plane beside my Stanley 51/2 C....................
It measures 1.75" X 6"

http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL434/1093670/6915920/142291693.jpg


Regards Gary M Kramer

[Joel Moskowitz]

Nice work but who is the maker of the protoype plane?

[Alan DuBoff]

As I said in another thread, WOW!:)

An outstanding job, especially given the situation. You have done an excellent job, and they look wonderful.

I hear there's a void in the plane market as of recent, now's your opportunity to be a plane maker!;)

[Gary M Kramer]

Nice work but who is the maker of the protoype plane?

Hello Joel - If by "prototype" you mean the original - it was made in about 1790 - 1825 by W & G Ibbottson. They were very well known edge tool makers listed in the Sheffield Trade directory of 1844. The plane is marked on the front "toe" of the base W & G Ibbottson and on the front infill W & G Ibbottson Cambridge. I need to do some more research in the Cambridge area. My hunch is that they moved to the bigger industrial centre of Sheffield to expand their business.

Regards Gary M Kramer

[Gary M Kramer]

As I said in another thread, WOW!:)

An outstanding job, especially given the situation. You have done an excellent job, and they look wonderful.

I hear there's a void in the plane market as of recent, now's your opportunity to be a plane maker!;)

Hello Alan

Thankyou for your kind words of encouragement. I am not trained in either woodwork or metal work. I know it sounds silly but it is true. My interest in plane making came about after many years of tool collecting. I am self taught - but I have met several people who made their own infill planes and they were an inspiration. The main problem I can see in going into small scale production with these planes is the sourcing of the plane blades. I pay nearly $ 100 each even if they are 1" X 4" or 3" X 10" in size. In case anyone would like to know the wood used for the infill on those 3 planes is home grown English Walnut.

Here in the UK there are recognised "makers" whos work commands high prices but I have to say that I have seen their work close up and some of it is not to my taste - with little sign of hand skills being used. By that I dont mean dings all over and file marks but they look like they have been assembled by a robot they are almost "too good".

I am making some more - about 10 or 12 and will be offering some for sale in about 4 to 8 weeks time assuming I can source the blades. One thing I would point out is that I will not be fine tuning the planes I make. That is to say I would leave the blades for the new owner to hone and sharpen to their taste and I would not open the mouth beyond a minimum point.

Will keep people up to date as I go along.

Regards Gary

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I was wondering about the wood, it is very beautiful. English walnut is rather different than American walnut (I have mostly worked with butternut, another member of the family).

Truly inspirational. Pity about my budget. :(

[Gary M Kramer]

I was wondering about the wood, it is very beautiful. English walnut is rather different than American walnut (I have mostly worked with butternut, another member of the family).

Truly inspirational. Pity about my budget. :(

Hello Deirdre,

Thankyou for your positive response to my plane pictures. Yes the English walnut is nice. I was given the wood about a year ago by a tool collecting friend. It was from a tree he cut down in 1976 so it had seasoned in a dry garage for nearly 30 years. I have managed to purchase 2 other pieces from a local supplier and I hope that they will keep me supplied with infill material for some time to come the two pieces are approx 20" X 6" X 4".
I have never seen or used Butternut is it something like box or sycamore pale with fine graining.?

Budget - I dont think my planes will work out that expensive - although they are 100% hand made I know that the cost of materials is only around $ 150 its the labour that is the problem as they require some long hours of hammering, filing and polishing. I plan to make between 10 and 12 planes for sale - they will probably be around the £ 400 - £ 600 mark. I am also thinking about selling the planes as "part built" projects. However I suspect that most of the potential buyers would be collectors who would prefer to buy a completed item.

I will make them to a level of 95% finished state - the end user will have to do the fine tuning to suit their tastes - Honing the blade, opening the mouth, lapping the sole.

I will update the info as and when I get some planes finished - number 001 is on the bench and will be a brass sided box mitre plane again with walnut infill.

Regards Gary

[Gary M Kramer]

Truly inspirational. Pity about my budget. :(

Deirdre - I forgot to say there is no reason why someone in posession of the following hand tools cannot make a plane like mine - all you need is

Metal scribe (or a sharp nail)
Set square
Pencil and permanent marker pen
1.5Lb ball peen hammer
12" hacksaw
3 or 4 files
Hand saw (Japanese Pull saw is my favourite)

Add some blood sweat and tears and about a week later you will have made you own.

Best wishes Gary M Kramer

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I have never seen or used Butternut is it something like box or sycamore pale with fine graining.?

No, it's somewhat heavier than white pine (in other words, more typical of a softwood), but has beautiful contrast.


Budget - I dont think my planes will work out that expensive - although they are 100% hand made I know that the cost of materials is only around $ 150 its the labour that is the problem as they require some long hours of hammering, filing and polishing.

No price objections here, it's just that we're moving into a significantly more expensive place, so I don't get to buy more planes right away. I need to spend more $ on lumber for a while. (Plus, I have all the planes I really need and a couple I probably don't.)

[Joel Moskowitz]

I can't find a reference to W & G Ibbottson in any of my reference material. THomas Ibbottson is the edge tool maker in Sheffield and it's odd if W & G Ibbottson were well known that they aren't in Either Roberts or Goodman
s British Planemakers from 1700. Can you please double check your reference material and confirm that W & G is not a trade name for Thomas (if it is all my reasoning goes out the window)

The body looks brass, (but I can't really tell from the pictures), which is unusual for a dovetailed mitre plane from 1840 or earlier. and with the stamp on the infill and the front toe metal I would guess that W & G Ibbottson were either a Cambridge cabinet shop that owned the plane or a hardware store selling a few planes make by a local anonymous maker. If they were the maker the stamp would be on the bridge and certainly not on both the infill and the steel sole. Late 18th century planes were stamped on the infill because the stamps were too soft to be used on steel. It's in my view a tipoff that the plane wasn't made by an established maker as most used steel for the soles (iron for the rest) and if you are going to stamp the plane it's the worst plane to stamp it.

The bridge is fastened with round rivets - which is also atypical - so again this is anidiation was make by a small maker, outside of the main London, York, and other planemaking centers where there were more established patterns.

It's an interesting plane. I would bet a little later than your dates - 1840 or 1850. How was the mouth made? I am guess T+G like almost all DT mitre planes I have seen? but I would be interested in confirmation

None of this of course detracts from your excellent work and I am glad to see that you are having fun making them, I am just a collector of pre-1860 mitre planes so the original tools interest me more.

joel

[Corvin Alstot]

None of this of course detracts from your excellent work and I am glad to see that you are having fun making them, I am just a collector of pre-1860 mitre planes so the original tools interest me more.
joel Joel/
Why the cut off at 1860? What development occured that you prefer to collector prior to that date?

Corvin

[Joel Moskowitz]

By 1860 or so all the basic forms of infills had been invented. What interests me is the milestones in their development. How did we go from the very earliest metal planes in 15th century Europe to the English infill and why the modern infill was invented in England and the Americans went an entirely different way.
What I actually collect is early signed metal planes because they can be dated much easier. (I have exceptions in my collection but not many)

[Gary M Kramer]

I can't find a reference to W & G Ibbottson in any of my reference material. THomas Ibbottson is the edge tool maker in Sheffield and it's odd if W & G Ibbottson were well known that they aren't in Either Roberts or Goodman
s British Planemakers from 1700. Can you please double check your reference material and confirm that W & G is not a trade name for Thomas (if it is all my reasoning goes out the window)

The body looks brass, (but I can't really tell from the pictures), which is unusual for a dovetailed mitre plane from 1840 or earlier. and with the stamp on the infill and the front toe metal I would guess that W & G Ibbottson were either a Cambridge cabinet shop that owned the plane or a hardware store selling a few planes make by a local anonymous maker. If they were the maker the stamp would be on the bridge and certainly not on both the infill and the steel sole. Late 18th century planes were stamped on the infill because the stamps were too soft to be used on steel. It's in my view a tipoff that the plane wasn't made by an established maker as most used steel for the soles (iron for the rest) and if you are going to stamp the plane it's the worst plane to stamp it.

The bridge is fastened with round rivets - which is also atypical - so again this is anidiation was make by a small maker, outside of the main London, York, and other planemaking centers where there were more established patterns.

It's an interesting plane. I would bet a little later than your dates - 1840 or 1850. How was the mouth made? I am guess T+G like almost all DT mitre planes I have seen? but I would be interested in confirmation

None of this of course detracts from your excellent work and I am glad to see that you are having fun making them, I am just a collector of pre-1860 mitre planes so the original tools interest me more.

joel


Hello Joel,

Thankyou for the very warm welcome.

I am not 100% sure if I can answer all of your probing questions to your satisfaction but here goes.

1. The original box mitre plane was made with bronze side walls. I could not afford to purchase a 8 feet by 4 feet sheet of 3.2mm bronze so I made my humble 3 planes in common brass.

2. Yes the mouth is of a T&G type construction.

3. The bridge is not held by round rivets. The bridge has two projections that stick out on each side and that are then peened over to fill holes in the side wall. I know because I have the plane in front of me and I have also made one myself.

You seem to ask a lot of questions and make assertions about things based on partial information. For your information Joel I know exactly who Thomas Ibbotson was. Here is the Trade Directory entry relating to 1822 and the brothers William and George Ibbotson. You will note that they were listed as "Steel Refiners"

Ibbard Samuel, stove grate & fender ornament maker, 9, Bailey field
Ibberson William, penknife manufr. 91, Great Pond st.
Ibberson Joseph, blacksmith, Duke st. Park
Ibbetson George, hat manufr. 53, West bar green
Ibbotson William and George & Co. merchants, mfrs. of edge tools, fenders, saws, scythes, and steel refiners, Bridge st.
Ibbotson Henry, corn and flour dealer, 3, Westbar
Ibbotson Thomas, vict. Golden Cock, Paradise square
Ibbotson Wm. flour dlr. 28, Burgess st.
Ibbotson Thomas, edge tool manfr. Charles st.
Ibbotson Abraham, 59, Green lane
Ibbotson George, 3, Duke's laneI am also familiar with the books you mention as I have copies myself - I would be most interested in seeing some pictures of the box mitre planes that you have collected or made yourself Joel. My main reason for belonging to internet sites like this is to share knowledge/experience.

Regards Gary M Kramer

[Joel Moskowitz]

THanks for the detailed reply.
You have answered some of my questions and raised a few more.
You have placed W+G in Sheffield in 1822. and have a plane stamped Cambridge. How much industry was going on Cambridge at the time?

is it earlier or later?? CErtainly if you have any later directory listing of the firm in Sheffield it has to be earlier. THe main reason I am guessing later is the location of the stamp and the bronze construction, with the a typical bridge. but the problem with my theory is that mitre planes of bronze, with a typcial design details show up all along the period - they are just unusual.

Who made it?

Why is a maker of edge tools with lots of equipment to forge steel and iron screwing around with a bronze sized plane??

Certainly the location of the stamp, construction, and the material indicates that they were the seller not the maker and the maker wasn't in the mainstream.

I will see if I can locate some pictures of my earliest English Mitre plane - by Gabrial.

The beech infill, and the longer toe are suggestions that the plane is very early 19th century or earlier - but the stamp on the toe is a wet blanket on that.

[C.R. Miller]

Nice planes, Gary. It's always cool when people post the planes they've made on the forums - especially "roundbacks". I'll be interested to see what you do next.

Can't recall the Ibbottsons as planemakers but they did some fine work with cutters. Joel is right in that the plane would be atypical in regards to the date you mentioned (for the reasons Joel pointed out) but, having said that, I've seen enough planes in my time to know that there's always something around the corner that surprises you and make you want to re-think a few things. This might just be one of those planes.

[Gary M Kramer]

THanks for the detailed reply.
You have answered some of my questions and raised a few more.
You have placed W+G in Sheffield in 1822. and have a plane stamped Cambridge. How much industry was going on Cambridge at the time?

is it earlier or later?? CErtainly if you have any later directory listing of the firm in Sheffield it has to be earlier. THe main reason I am guessing later is the location of the stamp and the bronze construction, with the a typical bridge. but the problem with my theory is that mitre planes of bronze, with a typcial design details show up all along the period - they are just unusual.

Who made it?

Why is a maker of edge tools with lots of equipment to forge steel and iron screwing around with a bronze sized plane??

Certainly the location of the stamp, construction, and the material indicates that they were the seller not the maker and the maker wasn't in the mainstream.

I will see if I can locate some pictures of my earliest English Mitre plane - by Gabrial.

The beech infill, and the longer toe are suggestions that the plane is very early 19th century or earlier - but the stamp on the toe is a wet blanket on that.

Hello Joel,

Thankyou for the detailed reply. I dont know about the construction techniques varying over the end of the 18th to the early 19th century - that was part of my reason for posting the picture of the original plane to see if anyone could shed some light on it's date/maker.

The late 18th century (1775 - 1800) was the very height of the Industrial Revolution. I think that many businesses both small and large left small rural areas and moved to larger industrial cities to "grow" their business. I had thought that maybe G & W Ibbotson moved there from Cambridge to do just that. Why they stamped the plane I cant say but it is well known that many retailers bought in from makers such as Marples and then branded the planes them selves.

The blade in the plane at present is a poor fit so I assume it is a replacement it is a tapered heavy mitre blade made by Howarth and is probably correct for date. I really need to find records for Cambridge to check trade directories in the period 1775 -1825 so far I have drawn a blank.

The infill on the plane is actually boxwood and not beech - the mystery will have to continue for a while longer. I would be very interested to see a picture of your "Gabrial" .

Best wishes

Gary M Kramer

[Gary M Kramer]

Nice planes, Gary. It's always cool when people post the planes they've made on the forums - especially "roundbacks". I'll be interested to see what you do next.

Can't recall the Ibbottsons as planemakers but they did some fine work with cutters. Joel is right in that the plane would be atypical in regards to the date you mentioned (for the reasons Joel pointed out) but, having said that, I've seen enough planes in my time to know that there's always something around the corner that surprises you and make you want to re-think a few things. This might just be one of those planes.

Hello C R

Thankyou for the positive feedback on the planes - Yes I loved the roundback as soon as I saw it - however it presents real problems attempting to make a replica using simple hand tools.

Next - I am making 5 medium sized box mitre planes with different style bridges and a couple will have two seperate side plates and a slightly different infill. I have the metal sorted out and the bodies are built just have lots of draw filing to do and then its down to some wood work and some serious polishing........

Ibbotsons - My guess is that they were making blades andother edged tools and simply stamped their name on a plane that they fitted a blade to. It was probably made by a local artisan tool maker or journeyman - I will try and get some more info in the next week or so.

Best regards Gary M Kramer

[Alice Frampton]

Hello Gary,

Beautiful planes. I'm not a big infill fan as a rule, but mitre planes always get me.

Just out of curiosity, could you clarify the spelling? Ibbottson, Ibbotson or Ibbetson? Just that Hand-saw Makers of Britain has Ibbetson, but if it's a typo that needs correcting I'd like to catch it. :)

Cheers, Alf

[Gary M Kramer]

Hello Gary,

Beautiful planes. I'm not a big infill fan as a rule, but mitre planes always get me.

Just out of curiosity, could you clarify the spelling? Ibbottson, Ibbotson or Ibbetson? Just that Hand-saw Makers of Britain has Ibbetson, but if it's a typo that needs correcting I'd like to catch it. :)

Cheers, Alf

Hello Alf/Alice

Thankyou for the positive feedback. As far as the spelling goes I think it is farly flexible. I have found a good deal of different spellings and they all relate to the same family or group of individuals. It would seem that the
original may well have been Ibbotson but Ibbottson, Ibbetson and even Ibbertson were accepted.

Regards Gary M Kramer

[tod evans]

gary, very nice work! tod

[Gary M Kramer]

Hello Tod

Thankyou for the positive feedback. I am currently working on 5 Box mitre
planes. The infills are made and I am quite pleased with how they are shaping up. If I have one finished early next week I will post a picture of it on here for you to see.

Edit - Here is a pic of the five latest ones - they are awaiting their blades from Darryl Hutchinson (UK Plane maker) and a good polish.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL434/1093670/10080359/144282604.jpg

Regards Gary M Kramer