Mm 16

[Dean Lapinel]

Oh boy!

Had the thing two months and it still isn't working.
I've worked with MM techs and we found that it works with the coil out but changing the coil didn't help. All safety switches were checked and adjusted.
Last thing, after shipping me a new switch, then having it go back to them for unknown reasons, then shipping UPS (slow) I finally got to install the new switch.

No power!!!


Arrggg!!!!

[Doug Shepard]

Oh crud. Not you too!
I lost about 3 weeks dealing with that switch hassle. Since installing the new switch though, I haven't had any problems except for one phantom case. Have you measured the actual voltage at your outlet? The replacement switch they sent me was rated for higher amps than the one originally in the saw and it seems to be working fine now.

[Cecil Arnold]

Check that you have the power cord hooked up correctly (the plug). I had a similar problem, MM sent a tech and after both of us coming up empty it turned out to be improper installation of the plug. Seems there was a green & white wire and a green wire.

[Dean Lapinel]

Yea Doug,

I measured the line voltage and that was fine. They sent me a new 20-25 amp switch which was original to the machine. What switch did you get?

[Doug Shepard]

Yea Doug,

I measured the line voltage and that was fine. They sent me a new 20-25 amp switch which was original to the machine. What switch did you get?

The one that was originally in the saw was 16-20A. The replacement they sent was 20-25A.

[Bill Stoffels]

I just got an MM16 and the green and white wire was the ground, no issues there, I installed a 30 amp dedicated circut for the saw as they recommend.
I cannot understand why the switch you removed was 20 amp? I have a 4.8 hp motor that draws 24 amps so the 20 amp switch seems to be an error.
The old style saw was a 3 hp motor that would take a 20 amp or less draw?

Am I adding to the confusion? I hope not

[Dennis McDonaugh]

That's a shame about the mm16 electrical problems I've been seeing. Without knowing what percentage of mm owners experience switch problems, I'd say I've seen a lot of them on different woodworking sites. Like they say, sometimes perception is reality. MM better get on the ball and fix the problems or the good reputation they have built will be be for naught.

[Chuck Powell]

I gotta tell you I'm impressed with your patience on this matter. Two months without the use of a new machine is beyond my own threshold.

When you say "switch", I'm assuming you mean the motor contactor. I am also assuming by now you have cranked the overload amp setting to maximum (temporarily, to make sure there isn't a problem with the overlaod function). Have you been able to get the machine to run at all? You mentioned "without the coil"...do you mean you straight-wired to the motor?

MM should either talk you through troubleshooting the electrical problem or pay for a professional to repair or send you a new machine. I hate hearing that you are being strung out.

Does this two months cut into your warranty?

I received mine about five or six weeks ago and it has been fine. After reading of switch problems before mine arrived I specifically asked whether the machine comes with a wiring diagram. After reading your post I walked out to the shop and looked at my wiring documentation and found it to be incomplete and useless for troubleshooting.

I hope they do the right thing and correct this problem for you soon!

[Dean Lapinel]

I try to be patient and when I did need the saw for it's size I was able to use it. I still have my 1 HP "USA" made Delta that I had a buyer for...but now don't.

Without the coil it ran one day. I haven't tried that again. They call the coil the relay box that attaches to the main switch that runs the safety circuit.

Yes, I tried the range of amps and when I noted a clicking sound (power not connected) while moving the amp setting that's when Tim at MM felt it was the main switch.

The folks at MM have been very nice and they had only one part shipping error. I don't think they or I knew that the saga would continue like this.

It is though, extremely frustrating to have this great looking machine taking space when I really need to use it for a major project.

BTW, thanks to all of you. It's nice to vent a little and get support rather than getting flamed.

[David Less]

I'm going to chime in here also. I've been through 2 coils and a switch assembly. I smoked the middle contact on the most resent switch assembly and used the other set of contacts, these are the ones that are jumpered out with the black wire (as I recall). It's been working fiine since then. The switch is very unusual for a magnetic contactor type. It uses a coil to move a mechanical lever that then triggers the contacts. Unlike the typical American Alan Bradly or NEMA motor starter type. It doesn't seem very robust in the design department compared to the Amercan industrial type of starters. If this switch (starter) fails again I guess I will try to mount an Allen Bradly or similar set up. This leads me to question the European electrical components on the high end combo or slider units.

David

[Michael Keating]

Hi Dean and Others.

I am having the same problem with my MM-16. I got it to work for one test cut, then nothing. I went and bought an electric meter (I can not remember the right name) to test the switches. However, using logic I don't think they are the problem:
1. when I plug in saw I hear a click that MM told me was the switches powering up.
2. When the switch is working properly the on button is tight. When you open a door the button is easy to push. If the switch was not working, it should be easy to push (theory).

I am heading home early today to try and get minimax on the phone. I have had the saw for 2 weeks and so far, 1 test cut. Need less to say, I am not happy. I am starting to wonder if I made a bad decision as I look at my 2300 dollar paperweight.

Mike

[Steven Wilson]

David, the Minimax MM series saws are made by Centauro and they chose the lowest price AEG electricals for the saw. The electricals used in the MiniMax made machines are different and I haven't heard of anyone having problems with them. A few years ago (when I was having switch problems on my MM20) I investigated swaping out the AEG electrics with something else (AB, Telemechanique, NDD, etc) and it wouldn't be too hard; mount the new switch and NEMA housing on the back (near the plug housing), run the door cutoff switches, and then install a remote start/stop station where the curent switch is. I wish MiniMax would work up a replacement kit for those of us who wouldn't mind swaping out the electrics with something better.

[Juan Rivera]

I got my MM16 ( new version) last year and I had the same switch problem. They keep sending the same 20 amp switch to everybody else I see. I sent them a letter with my concerns including the fact that the wiring done by the factory is 12 gauge and it should be 10 gauge for this size motor. Supposedly all this was forwarded to Centauro and the engineers were looking at it. Well I guess all they did was look at it since more customers are still having the same problem.

BTW my saw's table was not flat at all (.020") and they replaced with one that was .010" off . Minimax tolerances allow .014" out of flatness. I wonder how far off table flatness is on everyone else with a new model MM16?

[David Less]

Dean & Mike,

If MM is of no help to you send me a private E-mail and I can walk you through some testing with your volt meter over the phone. I'm sure it is the same problem I had. Typically one or more of the contacts may be burned. You can test for this easily across the correct leads. If one set is burned, such as mine was, you can easily jumper this with the other pair (which is not used). I'm not trying to bash MM, I thick Sam is a great guy and if I owned a machine company he would be the guy in charge of sales. I just did not have any luck with Jim the service manager. Like always, I have to figure things out for my self, which is a good thing at times because I can help others.

David

[Chuck Powell]

I got my MM16 ( new version) last year and I had the same switch problem. They keep sending the same 20 amp switch to everybody else I see. I sent them a letter with my concerns including the fact that the wiring done by the factory is 12 gauge and it should be 10 gauge for this size motor. Supposedly all this was forwarded to Centauro and the engineers were looking at it. Well I guess all they did was look at it since more customers are still having the same problem.

BTW my saw's table was not flat at all (.020") and they replaced with one that was .010" off . Minimax tolerances allow .014" out of flatness. I wonder how far off table flatness is on everyone else with a new model MM16?

I haven't checked table flatness but it's not perfect. I am an electrical guy, not very mechanically inclined, so I typically don't check such things more so than with a straight edge/feeler gauge. I haven't noticed any problems making good cuts. Now you've got me thinking and I'm gonna have to check my table out!

The use of 12 AWG wire is not really a big concern over very short distances in the machine (less than 4 feet). I have seen this practice used in factory wiring within industrial machinery/panels.

The problems with the contactor/switch is unacceptable and is indicative of poor quality control. I am fortunate that I got one of the working models.

If anyone here has actually traced out the wiring schematic I think it would be great to post it for others to download. I would have thought that the Start PB (normally open) is wired in Series with the Stop PB (normally closed in the "out position") and the door switches (normally open, closes when door is closed) and foot brake (normally closed, opens when foot brake pedal pushed) before going to the coil. Typically the Start PB contacts would be in Parallel with an auxiliary contact on the starter contactor for a "seal-in". Alternatively the door switches and foot brake switch could be wired to a separate relay coil and the Normally Open contact from the relay would be wired in series with the Start PB, Stop PB, going to the contactor coil.

I don't understand why this detail is not included with the owner's manual. Their wiring diagram is poor.

I just walked out to the shop and I wrote down the motor nameplate data from my saw.
220V
20.8A
power factor 0.94
3.6 kW ......(Power Out)

220*20.8*.94 = 4.3 kW (Power In).
PowerOut/PowerIn = 3.6/4.3 = 84% efficiency...not too good IMHO. I would have thought the power factor and efficiency should be the other way around (high effic, moderate power factor).

My saw has a 20-25 amp contactor and the overload is set to 21 amps. I'm now wondering if the quality problem is with the smaller 20 amp contactor? FWIW a 20 amp contactor, while marginal, should work just fine on this application, at least in my local area, since typical household voltage is 240/120 and the resultant current would be around 19 amps at full load.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I got my MM16 ( new version) last year and I had the same switch problem. They keep sending the same 20 amp switch to everybody else I see. I sent them a letter with my concerns including the fact that the wiring done by the factory is 12 gauge and it should be 10 gauge for this size motor. Supposedly all this was forwarded to Centauro and the engineers were looking at it. Well I guess all they did was look at it since more customers are still having the same problem.

BTW my saw's table was not flat at all (.020") and they replaced with one that was .010" off . Minimax tolerances allow .014" out of flatness. I wonder how far off table flatness is on everyone else with a new model MM16?


My MM16's table is certainly not flat. I can't even get the blade square to the table on both sides of the split. They sent me a new table and it's the same. I have my fence set up so it's on the side of the table that's square to the blade during resawing. So I'm working around this problem. But should you have to with a machine at this level?

I still wish my table was flatter but I don't think Mini Max can/will make it happen. Other than this my MM16 seems like a very robust smooth running machine.

p.s. In all fairness, Mini Max did offer to have the table ground locally. But I had no luck finding anybody that would do it for around $100 that I was allowed to spend on this.

Don't the new tables have a pin in the slot that may help this?

[David Less]

Alan,

My table is the newer pin style and I can not get the table perpindicular to both sides of the blade. I just think it is inherent in all tables that have the split running inline with the blade. Fortunately is hasn't effected it's resaw or cut ability. Other that putting a straight edge across the split/slot I would bet your table is with in .006" for flatness for it's size. Any time you take a flat plate and then cut a slot midway thru, the stresses in the plate will always cause one half to go out. Even if you reground the plate with the pin pressed in, by the time you tightened the table bolts it will still not be with in .005". I think more like .010" - .015" is more realistic.

Hpoe this helps ,

David

[rick fulton]

Alan, Juan -

The 2004 MM16 has adjustment bolts under the table that connect it to the tilt mechanism. These same 4 bolts can also be used to correct the flatness of the tabletop. When I received mine, the worst mismatch was at the split edge of the table, being >0.020” off flat from one side of the blade slot to the other. At the back of the blade the table appeared almost flat; but it was still notably out of kilter when squaring the blade with the table using a 12” machinists square against both sides of the blade.

I never would have guessed that cast iron would flex so easily. I re-tweaked my table using a technique posted by Aram on the minimax-usa forum. It starts by loosening all four adjustment bolts. Once all tension is removed, the table floats on all axis. It was no trivial task to get the table to align 90 degrees to the blade on two axis without accidentally flexing the table. I now have more respect for the fragility of this alignment so will no longer be using the table top as a hand-hold when adjusting the BS location or footing.

Is this adjustment feature missing on the newer MM16’s?

rick

[Dean Lapinel]

I can't justify continuing efforts into a machine that has an inherent electrical weakness. They are picking the machine up for return.

Thanks for all your help.

Dean

[David Less]

Dean,

Sorry to hear of your problem, is MM sending out another??

David

[Michael Keating]

I spoke to MM for about an hour last night and they think it is the switch and coil. They are going to send me a new switch and I am going to intall it. If this does not work, I too will be sending the machine back as I can not justify spending over 5 hours correcting a problem on a 2300 dollar machine (I have not made cut 1 yet).
Dean, how are they handling the packing and return (I am hoping I do not have to use it).

Mike

[Doug Shepard]

Sorry to hear you guys aren't able to get your MM16's going. With the kinks worked out, it's one sweet saw. Can't say I blame you though for shipping it back. Maybe once MM gets really tired of spending time and money on these type of returns they'll get busy and get the electrical issues eliminated or re-designed.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

As a proud MM16 owner I am very dismayed to hear of the problems new owners are having with the bandsaw. Minimax has treated me very well and has a good reputation for customer service, but it doesn't take many problems like these to totally trash a hard earned reputation. I hope they get on the ball and fix the electrical issues as there is really no excuse for problems of this type in a machine that costs as much as they do.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Alan, Juan -

The 2004 MM16 has adjustment bolts under the table that connect it to the tilt mechanism. These same 4 bolts can also be used to correct the flatness of the tabletop. When I received mine, the worst mismatch was at the split edge of the table, being >0.020” off flat from one side of the blade slot to the other. At the back of the blade the table appeared almost flat; but it was still notably out of kilter when squaring the blade with the table using a 12” machinists square against both sides of the blade.

I never would have guessed that cast iron would flex so easily. I re-tweaked my table using a technique posted by Aram on the minimax-usa forum. It starts by loosening all four adjustment bolts. Once all tension is removed, the table floats on all axis. It was no trivial task to get the table to align 90 degrees to the blade on two axis without accidentally flexing the table. I now have more respect for the fragility of this alignment so will no longer be using the table top as a hand-hold when adjusting the BS location or footing.

Is this adjustment feature missing on the newer MM16’s?

rick

HI Rick,

I did the trunnion bolt tightening a long time ago and it ended in more frustration for me. When I got the table pretty flat then I couldn't get it perpendicular to the blade. It's been awhile since I did it and can't remember all the details. I do remember how frustrated I was even after getting a second table.

For resawing I can compensate but for making bandsaw boxes which I love to do there is a problem. And that is when one part of the box sits on the perpendicular side of the table the other part of the box sits on the off side of the table. Then some of my cuts aren't quite perpendicular to the box sides. I'm thinking of making a temporary top out of wood when I do these.

[Juan Rivera]

Rick,

i'm having the problem as Alan, but my new table only has .010" out of flat but the the problem is still there. The other issue is that the fence furnished with the saw does not sit perpendicular to the table. But I'll just make own with my perfect General table saw.;)

Thanks though!

[Bill Fay]

Chuck,
<O:p></O:p>
Sounds like you're good with electrical! I guess you could switch over to a magnetic motor starter. The AEG contactor is only a mechanical switch; it can’t handle the in rush. The magnetic coil is only there to able or disable the mechanical throw of the switch for safety reasons. Allen Bradley contactors are better quality and would probably handle it.<O:p></O:p>
I would think you could switch over to the magnetic starter for a couple hundred dollars. That would solve the problem. <O:p></O:p>
What is the name on the motor and temperature rating? I heard that MM has changed the motor from the CEG. <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
I disagree with having to live with a table that is not flat. I want to re-saw and do joinery on the saw. I need dead on 90 to the right and the left of the blade with no dip or hump at the throat plate. Further more when I slide the wood across the table I do not want to get caught on the split. Any of these conditions will affect the cut.

[Michael Keating]

Hello all,

Just writing to let everyone know that MiniMax shipped out a new switch to me and I received it on Friday. I used my considerable electrical skills (sarcasim on) and install the new switch. I had probably the most anxious test start ever (again see skills) and it ran wonderfully.
I had the chance to make some sawdust this weekend working on a dresser for the wife and a shaker blanket chest for my SIL wedding. I am making the blanket chest from tiger maple with an antique finish (can not wait to see how that turns out).

Mike

[tod evans]

I can't justify continuing efforts into a machine that has an inherent electrical weakness. They are picking the machine up for return.

Thanks for all your help.

Dean

dean, i`m sorry you where unable to get your saw running and are discouraged. i`ve been thrashing woodworking equipment for a couple of decades and haven`t found any that where without some weakness, i think if you where to take the time to work through the switch issue you`d have the best saw you can buy in that catagory and i`ve never known minimax to be cheap or uncooperative when it comes to getting a problem resolved.....only my .02 tod

[Doug Shepard]

Well here's a really dumb question from a MM16 owner - how long is their warranty anyway? All the switch issues brought up here plus another new one that popped up on MM's Yahoo User group - along with a reply that a replacement coil cost $75 got me wondering how long the warranty was and why this particular owner would have had to pay $75 for a replacement. So out of curiousity I looked on MM's website plus in their manual (the online version) and I don't see it listed anywhere. Anybody know how long the warranty is?

[tod evans]

Well here's a really dumb question from a MM16 owner - how long is their warranty anyway? All the switch issues brought up here plus another new one that popped up on MM's Yahoo User group - along with a reply that a replacement coil cost $75 got me wondering how long the warranty was and why this particular owner would have had to pay $75 for a replacement. So out of curiousity I looked on MM's website plus in their manual (the online version) and I don't see it listed anywhere. Anybody know how long the warranty is?

one year..02 tod

[Bruce Angle]

Any update. Were both saws sent back and was a full refund given?

[Doug Mason]

It is interesting reading this post, particularly in regards to table flatness. My outfeed table on my FS35 Smart (1 yr old) is off about .10, the mortiser attached to it has it's table (a little over a foot long) out of whack greater than.10, and to top it all off, the pole that screws onto the mortiser table on which the holddown clamp is attached, is not at a right angle to the table! It's at 85 degrees. Go figure! It is not my intention to knock down MM here. But I seriously question their quality control and the resident MiniMax rah rah on saw mill creek that promotes them. If I were to do it again, I would purchase Felder, in that over the long term the additional cost would be worth it; but as I have never owned Felder, perhaps I would have a different set of problems? I'll find out with my next purchase.

[Paul B. Cresti]

If I were to do it again, I would purchase Felder, in that over the long term the additional cost would be worth it; but as I have never owned Felder, perhaps I would have a different set of problems? I'll find out with my next purchase.

Other problems? oh you might say that. Paying x times as much for a machine that does not produce any better, is not engineered better along basic principles (and hid in the fact of extra gadgets) but thrusted upon you as simple the best because...if you mean things like that and an attitude to boot ...then maybe I would say yes....but that is only MY opinion.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I gotta say: This thread has been an eye opener.

I'd read threads like this about other makers of less costly tools elsewhwere and they gave me pause about buying them but - - - these saws are not the low cost alternatives they are sold && touted as pillars of the industry.

Which I guess just goes to prove that all businesses are in existence to do one thing - - make money. Everything else is secondary.

[tod evans]

cliff, an electrical problem with one piece in a pretty impressive line up of equipment shouldn`t discount the company be it minimax, felder or grizzly. back in the early 80`s i remember folks had some bearing trouble with some altendorf saws and like any reputable company the problems where addressed and eliminated in the future saws. i have two older centauro saws marketed by minimax and they perform flawlessly as they have since new. i feel i`m safe in assuming that the faulty componants are no longer being installed on these saws and from what i`ve heard those who had/have faulty switches are having them replaced by minimax without fail. it`s up to each of us to choose what equipment and which sales force we choose to work with but as is always the case in life the cream floats to the top.......02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

I gotta say: This thread has been an eye opener.



In trying to be as diplomatic as I can ... what are people looking for here? These forums can all be misleading in either direction (good or bad) and for ANY manufacturer period. I do not quite understand when posts area made about "something wrong with machine" but yet that person has not contacted or attempted to resolve the "issue" with the manufacter first. It also is a pet peeve of mine when complains are made that "my machine is .001 or .01 out of square...." Does it affect the finished product? have you tried it out? If you have and it affects accuracy then bring it up with the company.... Have I had a problem here and there over the years? Yes I have and I am also happy to say EVERY COMPANY I have dealt with has made good. Here is my short list of companies that I have all dealt with and did what they needed to: MiniMax, Felder, Powermatic, Jet, Delta, General, Grizzly, Festool, and many more...... Some take longer than others and some are much quicker but to think that you are someone special and you have the only problem in the world is just plain wrong. We never see how many customers have had no problems or have been satisfied, instead all we see is the ones that want to "complain". Use these boards to get ideas, exchange ideas, talk about tools or if need to be warn others about a company that does not follow through.

Remember one more thing ...we are all working with WOOD here not metal, not polymers, not microchips, not acrylics..... what you cut "square today" will not be tomorrow. Wood is a natural medium and thus always changing. Learn to work with it, transform it, shape it and create objects and items for human use, enjoyment and benefit. Look at the top of this forum page, what does it say?, "Sawmill Creek, Woodworkers Forum" I do not see one word that says or hints to "machinist"

This is my opinion of my opinion which is my opinion on this subject of my opinion...yours may and will vary

[jerry cousins]

here's another $.02
i bought the mm16 about 4 years ago and it has been a great machine - the table was a little out of flat but tweaking the trunion bolts brought it true. absolutely no other problems - even to this day. i have really enjoyed respect this machine.

but today, if i was researching for a bs - as i did back then, i would be way more hesitant with the mm. the innumerable problems that have been described on this board and several others - mostly electrical - would make me wary. not that it is not a good machine - but after awhile i would think that the company would have made the problems right.

whichever machine/company - at this price the machine should not need major "fix-its."

jerry

[Doug Shepard]

... I do not quite understand when posts area made about "something wrong with machine" but yet that person has not contacted or attempted to resolve the "issue" with the manufacter first. It also is a pet peeve of mine when complains are made that "my machine is .001 or .01 out of square...."

Paul - since I'm personally guilty of posting a couple of MM16 problems here on SMC before contacting MM, I'll give you my own 2 cents as to why that happens.
My WW related activities generally get confined to the weekends when Minimax CS just aint there. Knowing there are quite a few MM owners here, this just ends up being the first place I turn to hoping someone has had the same problem and knows what the fix is. If I can't get it resolved during the weekend, it's not until the following weekend when I can try MM's suggestions after calling their CS on Monday.
A lot gets said about MM's customer service and I couldn't agree more. Every time I've had to contact them, the problem has ended up getting resolved and they're great people to work with. HOWEVER - I think MM does themselves and their users a big dis-service in terms of their manuals (if the MM16's is any indication). IMHO their manuals suck. For a machine of this caliber and price I expect better. I think a lot less folks would need to contact their CS if MM did a better job in this area. This translates into a lot less people needing to post a MM question on SMC during the weekend prior to contacting MM.
I still think I bought a great saw and would still recommend it to others but don't hesitate to say where I think their company could do better.

As far as the 0.001 tolerances though I couldn't agree more. Unless you can see gaps of light around a square while looking at the wood you just cut, who cares?

[tod evans]

doug, i`ll chime in on the manuals(immagine that!) the manuals do suck! the reason being that scmi and centauro both market to professional shops. minimax on the otherhand has offered these tools to the small shop and dedicated hobbiest. but that`s still no excuse for sam to not get off his duff and retype them in english including some basic set-up tips-n-hints that folks new to industrial machines could use to help them get acquainted.
sorry sam;) but being as you play in this sandbox you get to scoop out the cat droppings......02 tod

[Jim O'Dell]

While my 16" BS is the baby to yours (E16) the manual sounds like it is of the same quality. Luckily for you MM16 owners, someone has made a better manual. I know it's been talked about here at SMC before, but maybe it got lost for some. http://jwsjoinery.com/jws/bsm.htm I just printed it off, and copied and saved it in Word on my computer. Lots of good information there that will help me with my BS, and probably other brands as well.
It would be nice if the guys in Austin could put together a better manual to send. And another really nice step would be to make a video, tape or DVD, of setting one up. Wouldn't have to be an expensive, professionally produced item, just in house with someone's digital handheld unit. Sam or one of the other gurus could narrate it. Jim.

[Jim Becker]

RE: Manuals...there is a "retyped" band saw manual available for download from the Mini Max Yahoo forum...and it's been there for probably a year or so now. I don't know if anyone produced an updated manual for other machines, however.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

cliff, an electrical problem with one piece in a pretty impressive line up of equipment shouldn`t discount the company be it minimax, felder or grizzly. back in the early 80`s i remember -----

Oh I wasn't suggesting that the baby be thrown out with the bathwater. That'd be a tad strong. If we did that, we'd be unable to buy so much as a bananna.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

This is my opinion of my opinion which is my opinion on this subject of my opinion...yours may and will vary

Wait a minute - -- Does that mean my opinion "HAS" to vary?? So If I had a similar opinion but failed to post it in time I gotta go get a new one? That's harsh man. :D

[Doug Shepard]

My comments about the manual apply to both the one they ship with the saw and the one available for download. I find most of the same faults with both. IMHO the hobbyist vs pro thing shouldn't be an issue. If I did WW 40 hrs a week and spent the money for an MM16 I'd still expect to get a manual with a lot more in it than what it (they) currently have. There seems to be an awful lot of what I'll call common knowledge stuff that apparently has been out there (on their Users Forum or other forums) for a long time but still does not show up in either manual. I dont feel if you're forking out 2K+ for a saw that you should have to search the net for fixes. MM needs to keep those online manuals current with fixes and issues as they crop up and get resolved. I'm going to go out on a limb an venture that if you looked at forum posts for MM16 problems and looked at the recommended fixes that the bulk of the info probably still isn't in the manuals.

Here's a partial list of what I find lacking:
No index
Pics and/or parts lists as well as operating or setup instructions showing or referring to older parts configurations than what's currently on the saw.
Incomplete uncrating/setup instructions
No electrical diagnostic procedures despite problems that appear to have been ongoing for quite a while.
Etc., Etc.,

Bad translations from Italian to English I can handle. Lack of info just pisses me off.

[John Callahan]

My MM S14 manual is poor with omissions and occassionally gets a chuckle from me with it's poor translation. Sure, a better manual would be nice but the way I see it, its all about the machine; I've been very pleased with the S14 and chances are pretty good when I go to a bigger machine for dedicated resawing it will be a MiniMax.

[tod evans]

doug, my refrence to professional shops was an inference that i suppose i should clairfy. most folks who butcher wood for a living and step up to minimax equipment allready know how to troubleshoot most common machine ailments so things like unpacking instructions and making sure the wheels are coplaner or the fence is following blade drift,and the guides are adjusted correctly are taken for granted,as are the ability to troubleshoot electrical issues.
not trying to justify the manuals shortcommings, just clarifying what i think is the logic behind the manuals as they sit.. and it`s likely i`m all wet?....02 tod

[Jim Andrew]

I wonder if Minimax has a clue how many saws this forum has sold for them. I had never even heard of Minimax before finding this forum. And
I wound up buying a MM16! Hope they get this electrical problem fixed soon. My saw is one smooth running machine and I enjoy it very much.
Jim

[Ken Styer]

I don't know if I should respond to this post or not but I have had minimal problems with my MM16. I ordered this machine in Oct. 2004 which means that it is the early machine. Meanwhile, I downloaded the manual so I pretty much knew what to expect when I received it. The only problem I did have was that the lower door micro switch did not make connection. I did not have enough room to adjust it so I took the lower wheel off and made the adjustment. The manual I downloaded was excellent in this regard. Call it beginners luck or whatever but this is one real sweet machine.

[Chris Barton]

You know, had this thread been about another importer of European power woodworking equipment I don't think folks would be so charitable about having to wait for a month of failed repairs or making do with tables out of flat. It's interesting that the "mystique" of the tool seems to temper the response to frustration of poor parts and/or equipment. But, "they provide great customer service"...:eek:

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I don't know if this is a fair comparison but some of the Japanese cars only have 3-5 defects/car or less. And of course a car has thousands of parts from many suppliers.

A bandsaw has a LOT less. So how come a bandsaw company can't get a fairly simple electrical problem fixed? Maybe profits and not quality control is the important thing here. It makes me think they just don't care that much about quality even though they do seem to care about their customers as evidenced by good after sales service.