Old vs. New

[Alan DuBoff]

I have quite a few old tools, and some just have such character to them, and feel oh so nice, it's hard for folks not to like them, IMO.

At the same time I have some new tools I've purchased which I also like, some of them are a better mouse trap than the equivilant old tool. As an example, the LV router plane, for instance.

In talking with Deirdre yesterday evening, we started to talk about old vs. new and that for toolmakers to survive, they do need woodworkers to buy their tools. And people do seem to be doing that, with a type of resurge in toolmakers of such product.

A lot of folks will stick to old tools, or others will stick to new tools, and many will claim that there is no justification in buying a new tool that costs quite a bit more. But the reality is that it takes time to make tools, and those toolmakers need to make enough to survive, and rightfully so.

It seems good to support the current toolmakers, and some of the products they make are just super. Was just curious how other folks think about their tools, if they only buy vintage tools on a matter of cost, or if they buy them because they are the best tools available? I think I'm somewhere in the middle, as I do like and buy old tools, as well as new. For me, if there's a better tool available that is produced today (A Wenzloff & Son saw, a LN plane, a LV plane, Knight plane, Anderson plane, etc...), I'm willing to try to understand it and see if it might fit into my assortment of tools.

Support the toolmakers while you can, otherwise they can and do go out of business. That seems bad when folks go out of business, and I don't see how it advances the woodworking industry when that happens. Thanks to all the toolmakers of all types for making an effort to be in business making tools, for without them we would be a lot worse off in this world, IMO.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I like keeping tool makers in business. :)

There are a lot of cool old tools out there, no question. And some of those aren't made any more, so it makes sense to get those as old tools. But for tools currently available, unless there's some compelling reason to buy an old tool, I'll generally buy a new one from the maker.

As an example, a significant percentage of the #40 planes on eBay go for some price in the ballpark of a Steve Knight scrub plane. So I bought the Knight plane.

[Kevin French]

Alan
I'm one who prefers the old tools over the new for several reasons.

#1 IS price. At this point I can't see spending that much on an LN or even an LV. The old Stanleys made far better furniture then I'm now making.

#2 Continuing on that line, I'm not sure I'd see enough improvement in my skills to warrent the purchase of these tools

#3 I love to work on Old Tools more then working with them. :eek: There I said it,m I guess I on the road to recovery?:cool:

[Alan DuBoff]

Deirdre, I think the support to Steve Knight is excellent, and in the example you give where the price is very similar, it absolutely makes sense.

I have to shamefully admit that I do not currently own any Knight planes, and hear nothing but good things about them. I do have them on my list of tools to acquire, and there are a couple I've got my eye on once I can get a new bench built specific for hand tool work.

Kevin, nothing wrong with liking to work on tools rather than working with them. We're all here for various reasons, and we all have different interests, I see nothing wrong with how each of us do that. On some forums, not this one per se, but on some of the others there seems to be a sense of "you're going about this wrong, you should do it this way". It is important to realize that many of us come from various backgrounds, various interests, and what does interest us all in wood is often different. There is nothing wrong with collecting tools, IMO. There is also nothing wrong with using them. There is somehow something wrong with a collector telling someone they shouldn't be using a tool, or by a woodworker telling a collector that they shouldn't collect them and/or fettle them.

Being able to live in harmony and realizing we're all different is yet the first step to co-existing with each other.

There was a time, not long ago, where few if any western style saws were being produced. Yet, this has changed and there are fine saws being made in western style once again. This is a good thing, and supporting the toolmakers that are making this possible is important. At the same time I like old saws also, and I would classify myself as a saw collector I 'spose, for better or worse.

I applaud the toolmakers worldwide, and try to support the ones I can. I also have a lot of old tools I love dearly...and wether old or new, it's nice to have a useful tool when needed.:cool:

[Kevin French]

The only hard and fast rule I have about spending a lot of money on a GOOD quality tool is, It's got to make a differance in skills.
Alan I see the opposite in my readings also. Someone who's obviously new to hand tools and is immediatly sent to LN, especially in terms of Dovetail saws and Hand Planes.
I'd prefer to see someone pick up a less expensive tool, try it, and find out if they like to work with hand tools. I think you'll learn more about WW'n by buying a $50 plane and $400 of lumber, then a $400 plane and $50 of lumber. Add to that I don't have a taste for bright shiney collections of tools. 60% of the tools I have are from the dump. With a bit of work they're ready for a new life.
I have taken some flack for my stand on buying tools. Doesn't bother me. Some day I will break down and open up the wallet. Right now I don't know what I'm missing and that's all right.
Having said all that, I agree with you, I like what I see in this Hand Tool revival. I like the increased use and availability of the new tools coming out. I push more people towards hand tools then I do tailed tools when asked how to do some thing.
There are enough people pushing the new, I want to be a voice for the old.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Well, I certainly agree that one shouldn't invest a lot before one decides on whether or not one is committed to a given hobby.

I own a couple of dovetail saws (and have a third -- LN -- on order), but then again, I decided to do a fair number of dovetails soon. :)

Honestly, I don't care whether a tool is old or new. I like the fact that I have some tools made by people I know (or, in the case of one user-made plane in my family, by my great-great-grandfather, whom I never met). Some people prefer old. Some people prefer new. I have a mix.

[Jim Becker]

I tend to "new", largely because I just don't have time to do what would be necessary to rehab an older tool unless someone else does it...I barely get shop time these days. :( The only "old" plane I own that is currently in use is a nice Stanley #4 that Terry Hatfield refurbished. I do have a Stanley #80 scraper I picked up at a yard sale, but still haven't had time to make it work well.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Hi Alan. Your post, and most of the responses seem to be from "users". I'd rather use an old tool than a new one and have way more than I could use, so I guess I collect them too. I purchase new ones when there aren't any similar old ones, such as the LN rabbet block plane, or the old ones are rare, like the LN nr. 9. I also prefer the LN versions which are similar to old tools rather than Lee Valley which seems high on the gizmocity factor. I think you can blend, and in all probability, have to blend the old with the new to take full advantage of what's out there.

[Jim Young]

I have some of both, like most. In reality the cost of an old tool that is in great condition cost roughly the same as a new one. For example a Bedrock that is in great condition will cost roughly the smae as it's comparable LN, just my observation. Like Jim Becker said, I want to spend as much time int he shop working on projects, not making old tools work. I can buy a LN, sharpen the blade and go work on a project. If I were to buy an old Stanley/Bedrock, chances are I will either spend alot of $$ on a very nice one or spend alot of time getting it nice.

Another thing for me to consider is that I'm not very good with hand tools yet. If I am having trouble using a tool I want to be sure its me. If I'm working with an old tool I have to question if its my technique or the tools.

[Doug Ketellapper]

The first handplanes I bought were a LN 60 1/2 and a LN 112. I think buying the LN block plane first was a good idea for me. I had the money, and it is a great tool right out of the box only needing a little honing. I got really good results with it with no fuss. The next handplane I bought was a #4 Anant, and it is junk, not much use in putting any effort into it either it is so poorly made. If that had been my first plane I think I might have given up on them. Since then I've gotten quite a few old planes; Stanleys, Sargents, and a bevy of what I call "funky planes" (Shelton, Trustworthy, Capewell etc. I like having them on the shelf and to try out.) I enjoy working on the old planes and getting them back into working shape, but having used a good "new" plane has made it easier to understand where I need to get with them since I don't have anyone to show me. I think having your first plane a high quality LN or LV or something similar (and a block or bench plane, the 112 is kind of hard to learn to use as a first plane) helps you understand how a good plane should operate, and removes some of the frustration factor in learning to use a new type of tool.

I don't think there's any right choice in the matter, other than avoiding the junk planes like the Anant was for me. Partly the issue will be price. If I was looking at buying a #1 or a #2 I'd definitely get a LN. I think we're lucky that we have the choices we do: a new LV quality plane, an old plane to fix up, or an old plane that's been refurbished to good working condition. We also have fine aftermarket irons of different types from several sources. All in all it's a pretty good winning situation.

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan I see the opposite in my readings also. Someone who's obviously new to hand tools and is immediatly sent to LN, especially in terms of Dovetail saws and Hand Planes.
I'd prefer to see someone pick up a less expensive tool, try it, and find out if they like to work with hand tools. I think you'll learn more about WW'n by buying a $50 plane and $400 of lumber, then a $400 plane and $50 of lumber. Add to that I don't have a taste for bright shiney collections of tools. 60% of the tools I have are from the dump. With a bit of work they're ready for a new life.I have mixed feelings on this. I have many old saws that will work fine for dovetails. Most old saws have handles that are not tight, and most all of them need sharpening. The majority of folks lack the skills and tools to sharpen their own saws, or to fix the saw nuts properly. While a LN, Adria, Wenzloff & Sons, Norse, Spehar, TimHoff might seem like more $$$s, I believe that they get a person into a great tool without having to go through the hassle of finding a saw, doing the rehab on it, and especially do the sharpening and setting.

The other thing about saws is that there are very few dovetail style saws around, most of the saws that folks use are tenon saws. This works, no question, but I prefer the shorter blade, lower profile and finer teeth that make up a dovetail saw. The chances of finding one of these, even on ebay, is very limited, and the ones that do come up go for close to what a new quality saw sells for. For the amount of $$$s that a dovetail saw costs, I think it's a worthwhile investment to get a decent saw. I say this as someone who owns about 3 dozen saws, all of which are backsaws and will cut dovetails fine. I love to collect saws, but in the end I had Mike Wenzloff make me what I was looking for.

Additionally, I don't buy into the fine rip teeth being able to crosscut. Yes, you can do it, but it tears the grain up, and by using a crosscut saw you get a cleaner cut when cutting across the grain. If one wants a complete set of user saws, be prepared to have 2 of each size in gents, 8", 10", 12", 14", and 16". Then you can add a few others like 6" gent's saw with finer teeth. Saws are no different than chisels or planes, IMO, you really do need a full quiver of them to handle most situations.

I have taken some flack for my stand on buying tools. Doesn't bother me.I wouldn't let it bother you at all, as I pointed out we're all here for a different reason. Best to get the enjoyment out of hand tools that they bring you, wether it be collecting or using, nobody should feel guilty if they do one or the other, or even both.;)

JimB, nothing wrong with buying new to get shop time, nothing wrong with it at all. Old tools do require fettlin' and it takes time to learn how to do it, as well as how to do it properly.

Dennis, I also tend to buy new tools that can function where an old one can't. I have a LN rabbet block plane, but I do like the LV tools. Rob Lee will only create tools where he can innovate, and most of their planes are an example of that. I like the adjustment mechanisms on their tools, and while I only have their router plane, I have used the BUS, BUJ, and a 4 1/2, and the LA and Standard block planes. I plan to get the bevel up smoother, and block planes. LV offers great product at fair prices, which is why so many folks buy them. It's not that I prefer the gizmocity, I think the mechanisms are superior to the old tools, and in some cases better than what LN provides, since LN planes are really copies of the vintage planes with improvements. LV planes are original designs. Innovation is good, and this helps the woodworking industry grow.

JimY, yeppers...I agree for the most part, but LN planes are quite costly compared to the vintage planes. I have a few vintage planes and they were quite a bit less than buying LN planes. Sure, I would love to have a complete set of LNs, but as a hobbyist I don't want to spend that kind of money on planes just yet. LV planes are priced a little more reasonably, and good quality also. I'm not sure I would compare Bedrocks, they seem to have more collector value than user value, in regards to how much more they cost than the standard Bailys. This is why I have been planning to buy a LV BUS, it has 3 blade options to make it pretty versatile. Most of my planes are specialty type planes, like a No 20 compass plane, router plane, No 48 t&g plane, No 78 (Craftsman, english version), 192, rabbet block plane, etc...but the 60 1/2, 4C, and 8 are my goto users at the moment.

Doug, you can't go wrong with a LN block plane, the block plane is the most used plane of all the ones I have. I have an old 60 1/2 that is a wonderful plane, but it required a LOT of time to get the blade flat and sharpened nicely. I would take a LN replacement any day though, but will probably opt for the LV block planes, I like the handle option for the LA block plane. My 60 1/2 is one of my favorite little planes. I just love the small size. I also have a 4C user, and a No 8 that was refurbished (some collectors frown on that, but I like the plane and will most likely keep it. (the bevel up jointer looks interesting from LV though).

[Derek Cohen]

Alan wrote a number of things...

<I>A lot of folks will stick to old tools, or others will stick to new tools, and many will claim that there is no justification in buying a new tool that costs quite a bit more. </I>

I have old tools that look old, old tools that look new, new tools, tools I have built, and tools I have restored. It is not the cost, per se, nor the vintage or the manufacturer that determines the purchase. There are clearly tools I would like to own but cannot afford, and tools I do own that others cannot afford. There are tools that have a high degree of use, and others that are used rarely since they are so specialist. Some have "character" and other have glamour.

I use all the tools I own. None wind up on a shelf to just look at. Some do wind up on a shelf until they are restored, but that is a different matter.

These tools do not make me a better woodworker - they just make me a happy one. If I were only to buy tools that improved my ability I'd have given up a long time ago! My tools are toys. The fact that I make a lot of stuff with them does not change this factor. So the question is what am I prepared to pay for my toys?

<I>the reality is that it takes time to make tools, and those toolmakers need to make enough to survive, and rightfully so.</I>

Absolutely! The trouble is that most seem to want or expect everything to be at a price that is similar to second hand, common Stanleys, and that is unrealistic. In our day jobs most of us sell the one commodity that is nearly priceless but we do put a price on it - that is Time. What is your time worth? Is this any different from that of others, others including toolmakers? Of course not. So if you expect others to pay for your time, then be prepared to pay for theirs. This is what I think you are saying, and I agree completely.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alan DuBoff]

Derek,

If I understand you correctly, you have all types of tools, and use the best tools that you can afford, or obtain. I have a wide variety of tools myself, and I do have some I don't use as I have a lot of saws. However, I will assemble about a dozen as my users. I know that sounds like a lot of saws, and it really does require one buys a lot of saws to find good ones (make them good ones in some cases;-). If I was only going to have one joinery saw, I'd pick a new dovetail saw, like a Wenzloff, LN, Adria, Spehar, Hoff, et al...because you can do most things with it. But I'm not in a position that I need to only use 1 saw, and can have a dozen users.:rolleyes:

I don't know that any of my tools make me a better woodworker. They certainly help me do things I want to do with wood. So they make me more effecient in some cases. Most anything can be done with a chisel if you really wanted to...;-)


Absolutely! The trouble is that most seem to want or expect everything to be at a price that is similar to second hand, common Stanleys, and that is unrealistic. In our day jobs most of us sell the one commodity that is nearly priceless but we do put a price on it - that is Time. What is your time worth? Is this any different from that of others, others including toolmakers? Of course not. So if you expect others to pay for your time, then be prepared to pay for theirs. This is what I think you are saying, and I agree completely.Yes, that was certainly something I was yappin' about. And for the folks that do produce fine tools, I not only don't mind, but enjoy when I can buy them. I like nice tools, old or new, and the makers that do make fine tools deserve the prices they ask in a lot (i.e., most) cases. I agree that a lot of of folks want/expect the price to be what a similar second hand tools costs. Yes, it is unrealistic. At the same time the equivilant second hand tool can and does provide folks with tools to do some of the same function which more expensive tools do. Choice is good, and I have both types myself.;)

[Mike Wenzloff]

I have old tools that look old, old tools that look new, new tools, tools I have built, and tools I have restored. It is not the cost, per se, nor the vintage or the manufacturer that determines the purchase. There are clearly tools I would like to own but cannot afford, and tools I do own that others cannot afford. There are tools that have a high degree of use, and others that are used rarely since they are so specialist. Some have "character" and other have glamour.
I was going to quote less of Derek's post, but I wouldn't have been able to put it better.

Take care, Mike

[Dave Anderson NH]

I'm a mixed bagger myself. I have old, new, and tools I've made. Except for some inherited large carpenters and shipwrights chisels which don't fit the scale of my projects I use everything I have. Admittedly some of my tools only get used on rare conditions, but nothing just sits on the shelf all of the time.

Sometimes for someone just starting out in woodworking the old vs new decision becomes analogous to the chicken vs the egg quandry. If you buy old you might not have the skills or knowledge to pick a good tool and you don't have the experience to know how to fettle it to make it work well. Similarly, the same will often apply to most new tools from the makers like Anant, Kunz, modern day Stanley, Buck Brothers, and a host of others. Rather than going to the expense of buying top makers, it is better to try and seek out a mentor or mentors who can guide you and teach a little about choices and operating technique. A mentor can help you avoid purchasing that cast iron paperweight with a tote, and blade than wouldn't cut butter. He or she can show you what sharp is and how to get there with minimal cost and effort. Books and the internet can act as a surrogate mentor to some extent, but only a few false starts and lots of time and effort expended will substitute for someone standing by your shoulder guiding you and giving continuous instantaneous feedback.

I learned how to do masonry from a book years ago, but I was VERY slow and inefficent and made some stupid mistakes. A few hours watching a mason work and pestering him with questions about why he did certain things did wonders for both my speed and the quality of my results.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I learned how to do masonry from a book years ago, but I was VERY slow and inefficent and made some stupid mistakes. A few hours watching a mason work and pestering him with questions about why he did certain things did wonders for both my speed and the quality of my results.

Dave, laying bricks is definitely an art form isn't it? I have done a fair amount over the years and while they look okay, the speed is definitely very slow.

[Jerry Olexa]

Time is usually the issue but generally, the old tools are better IMHO. For example, the old Stanley planes are far better than the current again IMHO. I still have an old Rockwell elec drill that is my favorite> Just my 2 cents...

[Alan DuBoff]

A mentor can help you avoid purchasing that cast iron paperweight with a tote, and blade than wouldn't cut butter. He or she can show you what sharp is and how to get there with minimal cost and effort. Books and the internet can act as a surrogate mentor to some extent, but only a few false starts and lots of time and effort expended will substitute for someone standing by your shoulder guiding you and giving continuous instantaneous feedback.Very much like the internet, there doesn't seem to always be a convenient mentor, or one that has the same needs/interests. I say this in regard to sometimes accepthing their values or the tools they prefer, not that it's a bad thing, just that in some cases one might select different. So, I think it's important to take any advice on the inet, or from a mentor with some grain of salt.

In the same regard, sometimes people have idols, or place craftsment on a pedestal, only to find out they're not the person and/or craftsman they thought before they met them. I agree that it helps to have a mentor, or at least someone to show you how to do things as it certainly saves time. Part of being a woodworker is being able to decide when you need to do something a specific way, or having a tool to do something. For me, I find that I will often use the wrong tool, or just do what works with a tool I have, and this aspect attracts me also, even if I take longer to do something.

The internet is able to fill a gap, where pictures and streaming media can be incorporated into the next best thing to having a mentor, but VHS/DVDs have done that for quite some time also. I am a believer that a real craftsman can use any tool, even the cast iron paperweight with a tote, or the blade that won't cut butter. That's also something to admire. Being good enough to come up with your own solution is a big piece of the puzzle. Having good tools is as well. Any help, mentors or other (inet, VHS, DVD, TV, et al) is only a plus, and in some cases like you point out...a big plus!

Jerry, if it was as simple as saying, "which is better, an old stanley or a new stanley?", I think the choice would be easy. But it's a bit more difficult to compare an old stanley to a new LN plane, or a new LV plane, or a Steve Knight plane, or a Wayne Anderson plane, or a Carl Holtey, etc...that seems to make things a bit more difficult for me. All of these solutions will work, and because of the pure volume of tools that most woodworkers acquire, there are reasons that folks would want vintage or new. Choice is good, and an old tools is not always the best tool, albeit old tools are nice, I like them a lot!:)

[James Mittlefehldt]

I tend to be like Dave Anderson a mix of both. For example to buy a Millwright's mortising chisle off that auction site, is somewhat expensive, as by the time I pay for shipping and then convert to Canadian dollars it would be more than a new Hirsch Chisel, so one win for Hirsch. By the way they are a real joy to use the right tool for the right job, work great.

I also have thought a great deal about something that Bob Smalser said a while back (by the way is he okay I have not seen him about much of late) that being that, many people today would probably be surprised at how FEW tools many of the craftsmen of old made do with, and still got the job done. I of course only buy tools to use and the fact that I have several Ohio Tool PLanes is a coincidence.:rolleyes:

Though I am curious Allan as to why you feel you need so many size backsaws I use three and they do everything I need. A 12 inch rip cut and 14 inch crosscut R. E. Smith saws and a Pax rip cut dovetail saw and frankly I don't see where I would need anymore.

I agree that for what you would pay for a Bedrock you would be better off with a new LV or LN, as it would not be that much more.

I sould also add that my favourite two planes are my Ohio Tool 07C and my low angle Veritas Block plane so old and new, the 07 cost four dollars and now does yoeman's work. Unless you are a collector, and there is nothing wrong with that, I would suggest the best course is to buy the best tool you can get for the best price old or new.

[Jerry Olexa]

[]Very muquote=Alan Jerry, if it was as simple as saying, "which is better, an old stanley or a new stanley?", I think the choice would be easy. But it's a bit more difficult to compare an old stanley to a new LN plane, or a new LV plane, or a Steve Knight plane, or a Wayne Anderson plane, or a Carl Holtey, etc...that seems to make things a bit more difficult for me. All of these solutions will work, and because of the pure volume of tools that most woodworkers acquire, there are reasons that folks would want vintage or new. Choice is good, and an old tools is not always the best tool, albeit old tools are nice, I like them a lot!:)[/quote]

Alan, very well said. Good points. From my limited perspective, the older tools were better. But today, I generally buy new tools except for planes and certain hand tools. Time and expediancy tend to win in our hurried world..Thanks for your comments

[Alan DuBoff]

Though I am curious Allan as to why you feel you need so many size backsaws I use three and they do everything I need. A 12 inch rip cut and 14 inch crosscut R. E. Smith saws and a Pax rip cut dovetail saw and frankly I don't see where I would need anymore.James, a good question, and the honest answer is that you do not NEED so many. But in reality, there are reasons why there are different size saws, with different teeth patterns (smaller or larger), as well as rip vs. crosscut.

Since I subscribe to the school of thought which says a crosscut is for cutting across the grain, and a rip is for cutting along/with the grain, this would require at minimum 2 saws for each size. The majority of folks make due with only 1 saw, and get either a fine rip or fine crosscut saw which can cut against or with the grain. The fine teeth make it possible to use the tool in the adverse situation (both rip and crosscut if the teeth are fine enough).

However, there are different style saws also, and a gent's saw is needed. I prefer the old Disston 68s for this purpose, or at least this is what I have. I will file one as crosscut so I have both teeth at my access. Then I like to have a small joinery saw, I prefer 8" with a low dovetail profile, this is much different to me than a tenon saw, albeit a small tenon saw (or even a large one;-) will work fine. So, I would prefer to have a pair of those also.

I then want a pair of small tenon saws which have a bit thicker blade, and a slightly coarser tooth pattern (10"). The 10" small tenon saws are not deep enough to cut larger stock, and a 12" (the next size) will work. Some of the 12" and 14" saws have a slightly lower profile with a smaller depth, so it's easy to want a pair of 12" that would be slightly lower cutting height vs a higher depth which could be on a 14". We're already up to 10 saws if you want both crosscut and rip for each. There are also 16" backsaws if one wanted a complete collection of users, or other specialty saws such as a 6" gent's style jewler's saw with 20-25 ppi, and for that one probably doesn't need both rip and crosscut. I have a Spear Jackson that is not as fine, but small like this.

But it's easy to have a dozen backsaws for cutting joinery, really not much different than having a full set of chisels, or a full set of planes. Does a woodworker need a full set or any of these tools? I think not. But the question is that if you had them, would you use them? And to me the answer is an astounding, yes, given the various situations and needs for cutting joinery. When backsaws are $10-$20 for decent saws, tell me, what does it really matter?

Now, think about assembling such a set of saws, many of the saws need to be fettled, sharpened, set, and tuned up to work properly. I can do this myself, so can do with an old saw that I fix up, but without sharpening your own saws, forget it as you will not have a decent tool to use most likely (IOW, most saws are not sharp which you buy in the used market). You need to buy more saws that you would want, as you won't like all of them, or want to compare similar saws to find the ones you do like. This is akin to Bob Smalser assembling a set of vintage chisels and buying 200 of them so he can find the ones he likes. In the end it's cheaper to buy a large qty of vintage saws, if one has the skills needed to rehab and tune them up. Saws have various problems also, loose saw nuts (especially on old split-nuts), broken teeth, kinks in the blades, broken handle tips, thick rust, etc...so it takes a QTY of saws to choose from to find the ones one likes. Even so, one needs to spend the time and effort to rehab and make the saws usable.

Jerry, we're on the same page as far as I can tell, and I do own both old and new. I find the few new planes I have to be superior in some ways, but not anything that is needed to accomplish the same task. Small things like the slop in the adjusters, small nicks in the mouth or scratches/nicks to the sole, or even an imperfect tote or knob. It's not that this character is not good, in some ways it gives the old tools personality. But it just all depends on what the tool is, how much the vintage one cost, and what a new comparable/improved model might cost. This is all a personal choice, and as I said I think choice is good.

[Travis Johnson]

This is an interesting thread, and for two reasons...

I live only a few towns away from Lie Neisen and I can say for sure that they are doing very well. Considering that this man started with a ratty old barn and has moved up to the state of the art facility means that people are buying his tools. That's good, because the economy in Maine, especially in Warren Maine, really needs this kind of industry...any industry right now.

Fortunately I also live close to the largest used tool store in the Northeast...Liberty Tool Company. Its the best of both worlds for me because I can purchase high end tools for the everyday kind of stuff (dovetails/ lovetails/ low angle block planes/ bench planes) and yet, also purchase used hand tools for the hand tools I will use less often, or tools I want to experiment with.

[Alan DuBoff]

Its the best of both worlds for me because I can purchase high end tools for the everyday kind of stuff (dovetails/ lovetails/ low angle block planes/ bench planes) and yet, also purchase used hand tools for the hand tools I will use less often, or tools I want to experiment with.I envy you, but I live right in front of my monitor, and it can access ebay.;-) Seriously, ebay has enabled me to find tools that I would have a very hard time finding locally. It has changed what folks have the ability to obtain, and I think it's great in that regard. The problem is that it requires some time to "play". With that said, so does going to fleas and swaps, they take plenty of time.

Have you bought some LN planes, if so, which ones? Curious to what type of new tools you own vs. old tools.

[Don Baer]

While reading this thread I was reminded of the workshop I took with Sam Maloof. He said use the right tools for the task at hand. He would use a rasp just as he would use a band saw or a router as well as a scraper. He would use what he felt was the right tool for the job. Would he use a festool ? well he did have a festool sander in a part of his shop but I doubt if a plunge saw would fit the kind of work he does and a guided router would definitly work for him.

I use hand planes, rasps and scrapers as well as TS, band saws and my lathe Some of my tools are older that were handed down by my father who has since gone on to the great work shop in the shy. Other are brand new. for me it's all about the art and not so much the tools.

[Travis Johnson]

Well Alan, here is the skinny of it all. My old tools (both power and hand) far outnumber my new tools. I guess I am too frugal to replace many of them, and of the few that I do, I make sure are work horses of the shop.

My LN tools consist of a Model makers plane and then some dovetailing/ lovetailing tools. I have just got into the latter stuff and felt that it was something that would remain with me for life. To that end, I felt investing heavily in tools that would last that long was a great plan. At age 32, I can justify the high cost of LN tools.

Of course all this hand tooling stuff is new to me. I probably will never replace all my power tools, but if I could explain to you the intense satisfaction of taking a shaving of end-grain wood off with a block plane, well I would be touring the country giving motivational speeches instead of typing this reply :) There is just something about hand tools that makes you feel connected to the task.

I do not ebay so I I forget that option exists. I certainly did not mean to sound like I was gloating, but having Liberty Tool so close to me is a resourse I would like to use more of. Here is the problem though. I am new to hand tools so I do not know what I am looking at or what I should be looking for. I am hoping the woodworkers on this board will be able to help me learn more in this department.

As much as I love going down to LN and shopping there, buying 3 used planes to their 1 cost wise appeals to me if they still perform as they should. Also (for me anyway) there is extra satisfaction in taking that same whisper of end-grain wood off a plane that is 50 years old.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Alan, as I read the replies to this thread it occurred to me that no one was really responding to what I perceived as your message, that we as tool users should feel some sort of obligation to keep modern handtool manufacturers in business by buying their products. Is that correct or am I mistaken in the intent of your e-mail?

[Doug Ketellapper]

Dennis, I personally don't feel any obligation to keep modern handtool manufacturers in business. Any business should have a compelling reason for me to purchase their product. That said, I when I do buy a modern handtool I do try to purchase it as direct as possible so that the get the full benefit of my purchase. The only way I've ever bought LN or Veritas tools is directly from them. Sure I could save a few bucks getting LN elsewhere, but it's worth it to me to support them that way so that they can go on making great tools. On the other side of the coin, if someone I knew was considering buying an Anant plane I'd go out of my way to find them an old Stanley, Sargent, Dunlap, whatever to buy (I keep some on hand just for this purpose), and fettle it for them for free. (After they get used to it and like it I'd convince them to buy an aftermarket iron from Hock, LN, or LV ;) .) Companies that make and sell crap should not be rewarded for doing so. Anyhow, that's how I do business.

[Tyler Howell]

Still very new to hand tools I like both. I think the most exciting adventures I've had in wood working has been the rust hunt. During and after a ten week Neander class (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13764), I set out on a journey that took me to many places and put me in contact with many wonderful people. We spent most of the class on identifying, sharpening and fettling our tools. After acquiring a respectable variety of oldies I branched out on some new modals based on reports from fellow creekers
Clearly my favorite is a LN Brass102. The fit and finish are un believable.
A Bedrock 605 comes in second along with a LV LA Jack. Next a Sweetheart #80.
Still learning to use them, I've yet to discover all the wonders the old and new tools hold. The adventure continues:cool: .

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan, as I read the replies to this thread it occurred to me that no one was really responding to what I perceived as your message, that we as tool users should feel some sort of obligation to keep modern handtool manufacturers in business by buying their products. Is that correct or am I mistaken in the intent of your e-mail?Dennis,

It was not so much that we should be obligated to buy these tools, but that we should be aware that if we don't support and buy tools from the modern toolmakers, we shouldn't expect them to innovate, manufacture, or offer tools for sale. We are obligated to acklowledge this fact, more than being obligated to buy tools from them.

As users, when we do buy tools, we should buy from the vendors that best provide tools that meet our needs, and to offer us the best tools that we can obtain, but unless they can offer some type of innovation, or improvement to the older vintage comparables, I see no reason that folks should support them.

Travis, I agree with your assesment and one of the reasons I don't own many newer planes at this point. But I will acquire more. I have some new saws which Mike Wenzloff made for me, they're wonderful. I appreciate a good tool, period, can be old or new.

Tyler, I got a LN rabbet block plane not long ago when Woodcraft had it on sale for $119. It's a great little plane, and resembles how you describe the fit and finish on the 102.:cool: It is such a nice tool, it makes me WANT to live like I mean it!;)