PDA

View Full Version : Hybrid vehicle???



Mark Pruitt
04-22-2006, 9:40 AM
Gasoline prices being what they are, I'm driving less and am starting to think in terms of hybrid vehicles. Anyone have comments on these? Do they really deliver as claimed? Most importantly, is anyone making a hybrid truck that's worth considering?

Mark Rios
04-22-2006, 10:10 AM
Mark, Chevy makes a hybrid version of their Sierra pick up. However, the extra cost of the hybrid version of any vehicle taks a long time to recover. Especially in a truck, the extra mileage just doesn't allow a person to see a great difference in the short term.

Chevy's hybrid Sierra isn't really a "true" hybrid from what I read. Here is a blurb about it:

GM launched a hybrid version of the Silverado/Sierra in 2005. It is a mild hybrid design, with the electric motor serving only power accessories and the system also automatically shuts down when the truck brakes below 13 mph, and uses electric power to restart it. It uses three extra 14 V batteries mounted under the rear seats to store power. The truck uses an 5.3 L Vortec 5300 V8 for primary power.

The truck features four 120 volt 20 amp AC outlets mounted in the bed. These are particularly interesting to the building/construction contractor market, since they often require AC power when on the job. Additionally, the extra reserves of power for the accessories make this truck well-suited to that market, where trucks often sit at idle for hours at a time.
Availability was extremely limited at first, with commercial buyers getting the first allotment. Later in 2005, the truck was offered at retail in Alaska, California, Florida, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington. Finally, for 2006, the truck was generally available to retail buyers in all US states.

Here is another link:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/11/03/147374.html

The savings from a hybrid come from town-type/stop and go driving. The claim is a 10% increase in fuel mileage (we alll know that the claimed mileage only works at the factory with the wind blowing in the right direction :D ). Highway mileage in this truck won't really change because the engine never shuts down. Maintenance costs will be higher than a conventional engine as well.

I also read that Hummer has a hydrogen test vehicle out. Talk about taking along time to recover extra cost.:D

Dennis Peacock
04-22-2006, 10:17 AM
I know 4 people that have a hybrid of some kind. 3 don't like them because the fuel savings for them isn't enough to really offset the added expense of buying the hybrid and one person likes it...because he saw 35 MPG on a cross state trip via interstate.

I vote for horse and buddy. ;)

Jim Becker
04-22-2006, 10:57 AM
We have two hybrids...a 2002 Prius and a 2006 Highlander Hybrid Limited. Highly recommended. I'm getting about 26 mpg overall on the Highlander...and that's really nice for a mid-sized SUV. And--it has more horsepower than the "regular" one. We get between 45 and 50 mpg with the Prius and the current model gets more.

That said, what Dennis says is true, fuel payback is variable depending on the cost of fuel. However, the new IRS credit is helpful in that regard...buy soon as it's limited to the first 60K vehicles from any one manufacturer. I didn't buy the Highlander expecting to recover the extra cost...the day-to-day fuel savings is nice, but I also like the environmental aspects of it. We did more than recover the increased cost on the Prius...

If you have any specific questions about either of these two vehicles, feel free to ask. I'd buy another hybrid for the next vehicle, too...'just because.

And relative to the GM offerings that Mark mentions...they are a joke, IMHO. Only the current offerings from Toyota, Honda and Ford really exploit hybrid technology for significant fuel savings, and even they don't make the mark when it comes to balancing fuel cost vs increased vehicle cost. The industry critics agree with my opinion on this.

Ian Barley
04-22-2006, 10:59 AM
...because he saw 35 MPG on a cross state trip via interstate.


I am sure that I am missing something here but I get 40+ mpg out of my completely unaerodynamic slab of diesel van? I know that our gallons are a little bit bigger than yours but it still doesn't look like a great advantage to me?

Joe Pelonio
04-22-2006, 11:04 AM
I've looked into it too, and have several customers driving them. Most are happy with it and seem to be looking at it more as "doing their duty for the earth" rather than cost savings. They are finding that with the added cost they may not get a payback until after the batteries are toast, and somewhat scared about what replacements might cost.

Curt Fuller
04-22-2006, 11:34 AM
From what I understand, the benefits of the hybrids depend on the type of driving you commonly do. City type stop and go uses more of the electrical side while highway cruising uses mostly the gasoline/diesel side. But I believe the biggest advantage is in the emissions reduction.

Also, I listened to a radio program the other day about the use of ethanol fuels that GM is promoting. They said that it used more oil based energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it saves. But it could eventually reduce our dependency on foreign oil.

But it's good that there is finally getting to be some serious research work in replacing oil as the standard.

Frank Fusco
04-22-2006, 11:35 AM
We have two hybrids...a 2002 Prius and a 2006 Highlander Hybrid Limited. Highly recommended. I'm getting about 26 mpg overall on the Highlander...and that's really nice for a mid-sized SUV. And--it has more horsepower than the "regular" one. We get between 45 and 50 mpg with the Prius and the current model gets more.

That said, what Dennis says is true, fuel payback is variable depending on the cost of fuel. However, the new IRS credit is helpful in that regard...buy soon as it's limited to the first 60K vehicles from any one manufacturer. I didn't buy the Highlander expecting to recover the extra cost...the day-to-day fuel savings is nice, but I also like the environmental aspects of it. We did more than recover the increased cost on the Prius...

If you have any specific questions about either of these two vehicles, feel free to ask. I'd buy another hybrid for the next vehicle, too...'just because.

And relative to the GM offerings that Mark mentions...they are a joke, IMHO. Only the current offerings from Toyota, Honda and Ford really exploit hybrid technology for significant fuel savings, and even they don't make the mark when it comes to balancing fuel cost vs increased vehicle cost. The industry critics agree with my opinion on this.

My son also has a Prius (I believe a 2004 model) and a new Highlander. He gets about 26mpg with the Highlander and claims over 60 with the Prius. I doubt he would ever admit getting less. ;) He also won't admit the Toyota hybrids have a cult following but he spends almost every waking hour on the Prius internet discussion forum. I'm sure though he would ditto everything you said. Well worth the investment. For me, though, where we live there is no Toyota dealer for almost three hours drive away. I am reluctant to get a vehicle that cannot be serviced locally.

Charles McKinley
04-22-2006, 12:04 PM
Hi Mark,

If you drive short distances at a slow to moderate speed a highbird might work out for you. If you live where you regularly drive on the highway go with a VW turbo diesel. I have a 2005 Jetta Wagon and average around 43 MPG. If it is all short trips 6 miles or less it may drop to 38 all highway I get 47. You can fit 3/4 X 12X 96 shelving in it. I regularly load it with my CMS mounted to the Ridgid MSUV, my Smart table and rails from Dino and assorted hand tools when I need to do work in Pittsburgh. The 3'X5' cement board is the biggest sheet goods you can fit in it. There will be a trailer hitch on mine soon. Lots of power and fun to drive!

On the green side VA is warm enough most of the year to run biodiesel up to B100 (straight bio, no modification needed) if you want or a straight vegie oil system (SVO requires modification).

The best site on the web for info on the TDI is Fred's TDI page http://www.tdiclub.com/

The people are friendly and knowledgeable like here. Also feel free to contact me with questions.

Bart Leetch
04-22-2006, 12:54 PM
So using 28 MPG as a base & figuring top MPG an a small Hybrid of 50 MPG = 78% better MPG & the fuel has gone up here 51% since last August figure in the cost of the Hybrid in monthly payments & insurance etc. With the high cost of purchasing any new car today I wonder at 12000 miles a year how many years you'd have to drive the car to recover the cost. would the car last long enough to recover the cost.

I think I'll keep my little $1000 1994 S10 that I just bought. It seemed to get around 20 MPG on a short trip we just made. I'll know as soon as we make our next trip which will be 370 miles.

Erin Raasch
04-22-2006, 12:58 PM
My son also has a Prius (I believe a 2004 model) and a new Highlander. He gets about 26mpg with the Highlander and claims over 60 with the Prius. I doubt he would ever admit getting less. ;) He also won't admit the Toyota hybrids have a cult following but he spends almost every waking hour on the Prius internet discussion forum. I'm sure though he would ditto everything you said. Well worth the investment. For me, though, where we live there is no Toyota dealer for almost three hours drive away. I am reluctant to get a vehicle that cannot be serviced locally.

Frank,

I had to chuckle at this - I spend some time on the Prius forum myself, noticed the names, and wondered if there was any connection there. Small world, I guess!

Anyway, I bought a 2005 Prius back in October of last year. With winter driving conditions, my mileage dropped down to about 46-48 mpg. Now that the weather has warmed up, it's been up to around 52-53 mpg. My driving is a mix of city and highway driving, probably about 3/4 highway.

We just returned from our trip to La Crosse, which is about 110 miles from here. Before we left, I checked the tire pressure and inflated them to 40 front and 38 rear (had been at 32/30). I filled up the gas tank a little ways outside of La Crosse on the way back, and as we pulled into the driveway, I was at 59.7 mpg after 91 miles.

The terrain on this drive is mostly rolling hills, and there were several small towns along the way where I slowed down to 30 mph; otherwise my speed was between 55-60.

I don't want to make a Prius love fest out of this, but the Prius can get darn good gas mileage, depending on how it's driven. As far as the cost/benefit analysis, it's very, very difficult to determine, at least with the Prius, just what the "hybrid premium" cost is. There is no non-hybrid production vehicle that compares on an apples-to-apples basis with the Prius, and the stock Prius comes equipped with several options that are typically found on higher-end vehicles. If you were to compare the Prius with a similarly-equipped Camry, there is very little price difference.

I am really enjoying my Prius. It's not a lumber hauler, and it won't suit everyone's needs, but I think it's got a lot going for it. I haven't tried to fit a full sheet of plywood in the cargo area, but I hauled home my big green HF lathe in the back with room to spare.

One of my favorite things is that I never have to fumble with keys. I carry a little transponder in my purse, and as I approach the driver's side door, the car unlocks for me. I get in, push a button, and I'm ready to go!

Scott calls it my alien car. :D

Erin

Bart Leetch
04-22-2006, 1:01 PM
"I vote for horse and buddy."

Sooo Dennis does your buddy ride the horse or does he get drug along behind it?:eek: :D

Jim Becker
04-22-2006, 1:16 PM
Anyway, I bought a 2005 Prius back in October of last year. With winter driving conditions, my mileage dropped down to about 46-48 mpg. Now that the weather has warmed up, it's been up to around 52-53 mpg.

Thanks for bringing this up. The mileage does vary with the seasons/temps; partially due to the design of the pressurized fuel system and defroster/AC usage. (The pressurized system affects the electronic mileage number more than the "real" mileage number, BTW) Alison's 2002 Prius averages around 48 mpg during the warm months (not a lot of stop and go where the electric would have more advantage) but can drop as low as 36-38 during the winter when there is heavy defroster use. Nature of the beast.

My Highlander mileage is climbing, both due to the warmer weather and getting through the "break in" period...I'm just shy of 5K miles now. I don't expect it to get beyond about 27-28 mpg, as I also don't do a lot of stop and go...runs to the airport are at about 65-70 mph. But my local driving at about 45 mph definitely registers with better mileage performance! If this was the regular version of the vehicle, I would likely be getting about 18-19 mpg "for real"...(I do check it via math and not just depend upon the vehicle computer)

Jim O'Dell
04-22-2006, 1:52 PM
From what I can tell on the Ford/Mercury Hybrid, the real fuel savings would come from in town driving. Cooler climate would be a plus also. I don't think the people in Texas would appreciate pulling up to a long traffic light and it start blowing hot air! :eek: :eek: If you have the Ford/Mercury unit on Max A/C, then the engine is running, thus you lose the fuel savings. I'm guessing the others are the same. I had to certify on the F/M hybrid so that my dealership could certify and be able to sell them, as did the other advisor, shop foreman, manager, and 2 techs. (the really interesting thing from a dealer employee standpoint is the sheppard's hook to safely pull a tech that gets electrocuted to safety!!! [I KID YOU NOT] ) Our dealership hasn't even ordered one yet!! Jim.

Pete Simmons
04-22-2006, 2:12 PM
"doing their duty for the earth" rather than cost savings.


I know these cars do not recharge from the grid but-

Not sure this is a good a deal as some think.

If every auto was suddenly made all electric:

1. Think about the chemical mess all the batteries would make. Like old tires the used batteries end up somewhere.

2. Charging batteries from the grid - Every time you make a converision there is loss and the power needs to be genereted somewhere. I wonder how many units of power need to be generated at the power utility level to equal 1 unit of power at the wheel? I bet it is a lot!

3.Battery power sure seems clean until you follow all the different requirments all the way back to their source. Looking at all the items this clean power uses might disappoint many in how dirty it really is.

Roger Bell
04-22-2006, 8:54 PM
We have had a 2003 Prius in our fleet bought new. We bought one because we wished to make a "statement" and a contribution to the hybrid effort.

Quite a number of different drivers, but very good maintenance. We get high 30's in winter and high 40's in summer. I am not aware of reports of milege in the 50's. For running around on flat ground and for city driving it is fine.....where a small car makes sense. For travel over mountain passes, etc. it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of performance...even compared to similar small vehicles.

But hey.....it's a start.....these vehicles will undoubtedly get better and better.

Art Mulder
04-22-2006, 8:57 PM
Just going a little bit off topic.... in early march I was at a computer conference down in San Diego. One of the events that they did for fun was bring in the California Fuel Cell Partnership people -- http://www.cafcp.org
They did a talk on their hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, and then gave people rides or even drives in them all afternoon. I took a ride in a little Nissan number. Boy was it quiet, and it still had darn good pickup.

They are testing them in fleets right now, and their goal is to have something for the general public to buy around 2010-2012. This is something to keep an eye on in the future.

One of the guys I spoke with was with the Marines. Their test vehicle was a full size four door (Chev?) pickup. They make their hydrogen themselves by splitting water with electricity. He thought they were already doing a break-even cost in comparison to gasoline.

...art

ps: but I do know a few people who either have-and-love, or want, a Toyota Prius. Seems worth investigating. But I'm happy that I can just cycle to work. I think that is cheaper still. I like to tell people that I could buy a brand new bike EVERY year, and that would be cheaper than a parking pass ($50 a month where I work), let alone gas, depreciation, time to service, etc.

Erin Raasch
04-22-2006, 11:02 PM
I find the current trends in energy technology quite fascinating. I think most hybrid owners would agree that it is not the ultimate solution, but that it is a step in the right direction. One of my reasons for buying a Prius - though not the most important by any means - is because it's an investment in the energy and transportation technology of the future.

Hybrids still use gasoline, so they are certainly not the answer to any potential shortages of oil. They are, however, a very clean vehicle, having achieved the PZEV (partial zero-emissions vehicle) designation. Even when the engine is running, they are discharging very little nasty stuff into the air.

I've also been following the development of fuel cell technology, and I think that there is great potential there as well. The current problem with both fuel cell and electric vehicle technology is that they are dependent on the electric grid. What makes them both promising technologies, however, is that the grid is slowly but surely becoming greener. Many countries, in Europe and elsewhere in the world, have already invested heavily in wind-generated power. Of all potential energy alternatives, this appears to be one with lots of upside and very little downside. In theory, we could satisfy all our country's needs for electricity and then some through the implementation of wind energy.

Our world is changing rapidly, and it's exciting to witness not only the changes in technology, but the shifts in how we think about the world that these changes are bringing about.

Much as I love my Prius, I'd be one of the first to say that we can't stop there. Even at 50 mpg or better, it's only a matter of time before the cost of gasoline becomes a burden that will be too great to bear. But until the transportation industry makes the next breakthrough, it's a darn good option for me and my driving style.

Erin

Bob Weisner
04-23-2006, 7:09 AM
Some good points were made on energy production that is less dependent on oil. There has been great improvements made in the development of windmills. They only have a couple of drawbacks to them. 1. People may not like the looks of them, (they can be upwards of 300 feet tall or more). 2. Some people say they are noisy. The height of the windtower is directly proportional to the amount of wind in a given area. More wind turns the blades on the windmill faster which produces more electricity.

As to the noise level, most, if not all residential housing would be far enough away from the windmill that the noise level would not be of concern.

Ian Barley
04-23-2006, 8:11 AM
Some good points were made on energy production that is less dependent on oil. There has been great improvements made in the development of windmills. They only have a couple of drawbacks to them. 1. People may not like the looks of them, (they can be upwards of 300 feet tall or more). 2. Some people say they are noisy. The height of the windtower is directly proportional to the amount of wind in a given area. More wind turns the blades on the windmill faster which produces more electricity.

As to the noise level, most, if not all residential housing would be far enough away from the windmill that the noise level would not be of concern.
There is a lot of fuss over here about wind farms. Our simple problem is space. The places that have already been developed have people who have a NIMBY approach and the places that have not been developed tend to be consider "beautiful" or "special". Personally I think that modern wind powered generators are spectacularly beautiful. There is some noise and I wouldn't want to live directly under one but from a few hundred yards away they make less noise than the motorway that is within 2 miles of my house does.

I would suspect that in a nation with more space (like the US) they would represent a pretty good way of generating electricity. Whether the best way to make that energy available in a mobile fashion is batteries or hydrogen cells needs to be resolved but I'm sure that with any kind of will it can be.


For running around on flat ground and for city driving it is fine.....where a small car makes sense. For travel over mountain passes, etc. it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of performance...
Having crossed the Alps in a Fiat500 I can sympathise with the viewpoint but would have to say that I did it and so have thousands of others every day. If the price of continuing to be able to do something at all is to have to do it a bit less comfortably it seems like a fairly easy call to me.

Warren White
04-23-2006, 8:29 AM
If you have any specific questions about either of these two vehicles, feel free to ask.

Jim (and others),
What do you think the cost will be when it is time to replace the batteries? I generally keep my cars a long time and that is something I think you need to fold into the equation. When I have asked at the dealerships they generally duck the question.

Thanks,
Warren

Erin Raasch
04-23-2006, 8:45 AM
Jim (and others),
What do you think the cost will be when it is time to replace the batteries? I generally keep my cars a long time and that is something I think you need to fold into the equation. When I have asked at the dealerships they generally duck the question.

Thanks,
Warren

The hybrid battery will cost a little under $2500 to replace (from the PriusChat forum), but it is warranted for 100,000 miles. In CA the warranty is for 150,000.

Another quote:

'when the U.S. Department of Energy investigated hybrid batteries, it stopped its tests “when the capacity remained almost like new — after 160,000 miles.” '

From the evidence that I've seen, it's not a big concern. Consider what you might need to replace on a conventional vehicle after 100,000 miles, and even in the unlikely event that you'd need a new hybrid battery, the repair/maintenance costs compare favorably to those associated with conventional vehicles.

Also consider that since the Prius uses regenerative braking most of the time, your brakes are likely to last the lifetime of the vehicle. :)

Erin

Mark Pruitt
04-23-2006, 10:00 AM
PZEV (partial zero-emissions vehicle) designation.

"Partial" zero? Isn't that kind of like "somewhat pregnant"? Either it's there or it ain't! :p

Actually, I understand the designation. I just think it's funny the words people come up with.

Mark Pruitt
04-23-2006, 10:10 AM
The hybrid battery will cost a little under $2500 to replace (from the PriusChat forum), but it is warranted for 100,000 miles. In CA the warranty is for 150,000.


Also consider that since the Prius uses regenerative braking most of the time, your brakes are likely to last the lifetime of the vehicle. :)

Erin

Does this mean that the battery is covered in full for the 100,000 or is there a cost scale depending on age/mileage?

Also, what in the begeezes are "regenerative brakes?":confused:

You can see how little I know about this. I'm glad I brought this whole thing up. This has been helpful and enlightening!

David Fried
04-23-2006, 10:28 AM
With winter driving conditions, my mileage dropped down to about 46-48 mpg. Now that the weather has warmed up, it's been up to around 52-53 mpg.

I've had my Honda Civic Hybrid for 2 1/2 years and that's about what I get.
I went 52,300 miles on the first 1000 gallons. At first I had problems getting the EPA rated 48 mpg around town. Now I get 54 - 55 mpg around town. The difference seems to be doing what folks have been advocating for years.

Slow down. My highway milage is as high as 65 mpg but at 55 mph.My milage is better at 40 than 45 mph.
Combine trips. My milage is lower when the engine is cold. Combining trips makes a big difference.
Tire pressure. I keep mine at 45 psi in the summer and can see the diffence in mpg.
Oil changes. When I forget to do it on time I can see the mpg decrease.
Cruise Control. On my car the cruise control has a lighter as pedal foot than I do!

Not only does my milage drop to 40-45 in the winter, I can even see a slight decrease when it's raining. I've never figured that out!

The Hybrid was a good choice for me at the time because I got rid of a Volvo wagon that got 22 mpg highway and I did 50,000 miles a year of highway driving at that time.

If you drive a normal amount I'm not sure a Hybrid is worth the extra money over a high mpg normal car. I too share the concern over where all these batteries are going to end up.

Even at $3.00 a gallon folks are blowing by me on the highway in their SUVs. I don't get it.


Does this mean that the battery is covered in full for the 100,000 or is there a cost scale depending on age/mileage?

Also, what in the begeezes are "regenerative brakes?":confused:

Don't know about the battery. In 2004 my honda dealer didn't know because no one had ever replaced one!

Regenerative braking is when you coast and the electric motor as a generator producing electricity for the batteries. This helps slow the car. I would equate it to a 1/2 gear down shift. Not as dramatic as going from 4th to 3rd but more like 3 1/2. I do find I need to tap the brakes occasionaly just to signal the car behind me that I am slowing down magically without brake lights!

Ian Barley
04-23-2006, 10:34 AM
Also, what in the begeezes are "regenerative brakes?":confused:


Assuming that the technology is the same as in materials handling equipment - the vehicle is slowed down by using its momentum to run the motors as generators and the energy is fed back into the batteries. Effectively some of the energy used in acceleration is recovered in deceleration.

Jim Becker
04-23-2006, 11:15 AM
Does this mean that the battery is covered in full for the 100,000 or is there a cost scale depending on age/mileage?

8 years for the Toyota batteries, but I'm not worried about it since these vehicles generally have very low maintenance costs over time due to quality in my experience. I'm figuring on keeping the Highlander Hybrid Limited up to 7 years...which would be the LONGEST I've ever kept a vehicle in my life... I also hedged my maintenance costs for this vehicle. Normally, I would never consider any form of extended warranty, but opted for a 7-year/100K mile contract on this one (greatly discounted through negotiation and timing to about $17 a month equivalent if I divide the cost by the intended ownership lifespan) due to the large dependency on computer technology, both to run the car and for a lot of other systems. That means I pay for LOF and tires over the life of my intended ownership. Everything else non-cosmetic is covered.


Also, what in the begeezes are "regenerative brakes?

On the Toyota hybrids, when you let off the gas or press on the brakes, the electric motors generate electricity and also aid in the stopping power...you actually can feel the extra "oomph" in the braking. The stopping power is amazing. On the other hand, so is the acceleration when you need it. When both electric motors kick in concurrent with the gas engine, the Highlander Hybrid really "hauls"...which is good, 'cause our driveway is just outside of a blind curve, at least until the new driveway gets put in. ;)

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-23-2006, 11:22 AM
I say let someone else "consumer test" the technology. This stuff is new and it is complex. Different motors driving the same wheels using computers to balance everything out. ARRRRGGGHGHHHH Sounds like a seriously expensive maintainance and repair headache sometime on down the road.

Unless you belong to that rare and uniquely eccrentic breed of people who are possessed of the driving passion to force this technology into reality by applying their own risk, money, and personal effort I submit that you "just say no" to new technology hybrid cars.

This is especially so if you haven't got a compelling reason to look to hybrids. As I see it you articulated a stropng reason to own a F-250-4WD with all the luxury options and park it right next to your Mercedes Benze SLK road hog. You don't drive much, or so you said.

ERGO you won't ever pay a lot for Gas over the course of any given year. So go in style and leave the finiking to the finikers.

Jim Becker
04-23-2006, 1:02 PM
I say let someone else "consumer test" the technology. This stuff is new and it is complex.
Um...Toyota has been shipping hybrids since, oh...about 2001. They are on their second generation hybrid technology since 2004. Honda is not far behind and is also moving towards their second generation hybrids, moving to "electric favored", rather than the "gas favored" designs they have been using. When it comes to technology, five years is a LONG time!! ;) I don't consider it "new", at least for these industry leaders relative to hybrids...

Jim O'Dell
04-23-2006, 1:28 PM
Estimates on the Ford battery are also in the 2500.00 range. The warranty is divided between regular and "green" states. Warranty on the batteries are longer in the green states. I don't know how they determine that. Is it by what state the vehicle was originally purchased in? Or is it by what state the vehicle is brought in for repair that turns out to be a battery? If someone living in a green state purchases a vehicle in a regular state, what is the warranty? Would someone be able to take the car to a green state regardless of where they live and get the longer warranty? Hmmmm.......Questions with no answers. :rolleyes:
The oil change interval on the Ford Hybrid is 15k IIRC. Is it the same for the Toyota and Honda? I'm guessing it is. Jim.

Pete Simmons
04-23-2006, 2:49 PM
Another concern with wind power believe it or not is Bird Kill!

It seems quite a few birds get hit by the blades. The is some bird loving group who has strong opposition to wind power.

Bob Weisner
04-23-2006, 3:18 PM
I also heard something about Bats flying into the fan blades. :D :D

Mark Pruitt
04-24-2006, 8:13 AM
Jim, That Highlander is sounding interesting. Are you able to fold down the seats and use it to haul equipment/lumber/finished projects, etc?

Dennis McDonaugh
04-24-2006, 12:06 PM
I am sure that I am missing something here but I get 40+ mpg out of my completely unaerodynamic slab of diesel van? I know that our gallons are a little bit bigger than yours but it still doesn't look like a great advantage to me?
Ian, How the heck do you get 40 mpg out of a van? and at what speed are we talking about?

on edit.

I did the conversion -- 40 mpg with 4 liters to the metric gallon (I guess) = 33 mpg at 4 qt to imperial gallon. (40 mpg x 0.8327 quarts to the liter) Is that right? And I assume we are not talking about a 6500 lb chevy or ford van either.

Ian Barley
04-24-2006, 12:32 PM
Ian, How the heck do you get 40 mpg out of a van? and at what speed are we talking about?

on edit.

I did the conversion -- 40 mpg with 4 liters to the metric gallon (I guess) = 33 mpg at 4 qt to imperial gallon. (40 mpg x 0.8327 quarts to the liter) Is that right? And I assume we are not talking about a 6500 lb chevy or ford van either.

Dennis - It's a Citroen Relay - pic below. I'm using 4.54 litres as a gallon. A UK gallon is approx 1.2 US gallons. (Apparently you guys made a mistake a while ago and think there is only 16oz in a pint? - when we all know it's really 20oz:) ) So in US gallons I get 33+ mp(US)g.

Weight of the van unladen is about 4300lb. I am not famed as a timid driver. Speeds up to about 70mph on motorway.

I suspect that the difference in the gallon causes quite a confusion. I only just realised myself that I never have factored it in when I read stuff about US motoring trends. I will in the future though. (Good - Now I don't have to learn anything else today)

PS - The pic is not my van - mine's silver and has a lot more dents in it!

Jim Becker
04-24-2006, 1:33 PM
PS - The pic is not my van - mine's silver and has a lot more dents in it!

Ah...I remember riding in that van!! :D

Ian Barley
04-24-2006, 1:35 PM
Ah...I remember riding in that van!! :D
Consider yourself lucky Jim - when Larry came over he had to slum it in my wifes VW. Air Con, comfort, cleanliness I tell you - you got the better deal!

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-24-2006, 2:01 PM
Um...Toyota has been shipping hybrids since, oh...about 2001. They are on their second generation hybrid technology since 2004.

I call that new technology.



When it comes to technology, five years is a LONG time!! ;) I don't consider it "new", at least for these industry leaders relative to hybrids...

I call that new technology also.
Hells bells they haven't even got the computers naild down on conventional ausomobiles yet and the damn hybrids are still way expensive.

I'll take the SLK and the F250 any day over 80 MPG.

Dennis McDonaugh
04-24-2006, 2:57 PM
Dennis - It's a Citroen Relay - pic below. I'm using 4.54 litres as a gallon. A UK gallon is approx 1.2 US gallons. (Apparently you guys made a mistake a while ago and think there is only 16oz in a pint? - when we all know it's really 20oz:) ) So in US gallons I get 33+ mp(US)g.

Weight of the van unladen is about 4300lb. I am not famed as a timid driver. Speeds up to about 70mph on motorway.

I suspect that the difference in the gallon causes quite a confusion. I only just realised myself that I never have factored it in when I read stuff about US motoring trends. I will in the future though. (Good - Now I don't have to learn anything else today)

PS - The pic is not my van - mine's silver and has a lot more dents in it!

Ian, what size engine do you have in that? I get about 22 mpg empty on the highway with my Dodge p/u, but it weights 8300 lbs with the 6 liter Cummins diesel. I'd bet my p/u is way less aerodynamic than your van.

Dennis McDonaugh
04-24-2006, 3:00 PM
I call that new technology.




I call that new technology also.
Hells bells they haven't even got the computers naild down on conventional ausomobiles yet and the damn hybrids are still way expensive.

I'll take the SLK and the F250 any day over 80 MPG.

Cliff, there are a lot of happy hybrid owners out there, but it definitely is a niche vehicle. I think you have to do a lot of city driving to truly realize the gas savings and coincidently, this is where the gas vehicle does the worst.

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-24-2006, 4:30 PM
Another concern with wind power believe it or not is Bird Kill!

It seems quite a few birds get hit by the blades. The is some bird loving group who has strong opposition to wind power.
You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of 'em even a little bit of the time.

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-24-2006, 4:37 PM
Cliff, there are a lot of happy hybrid owners out there, but it definitely is a niche vehicle. I think you have to do a lot of city driving to truly realize the gas savings and coincidently, this is where the gas vehicle does the worst.'

I know a couple of them. That fact doesn't change my thinking. I wouldn't buy a hybrid for the reasons stated. I suspect that those who do get them are dedicated to the technology and or the idea of environmental benefits.
I am not among either crowd - at least not to the degree that I'll make such an investment or forgoe the benefit of more conventional vehicles.

Ian Barley
04-24-2006, 4:38 PM
Ian, what size engine do you have in that? I get about 22 mpg empty on the highway with my Dodge p/u, but it weights 8300 lbs with the 6 liter Cummins diesel. I'd bet my p/u is way less aerodynamic than your van.
Its a 2.8 diesel. Allegedly 128bhp - whatever that means. I don't need to pull tractors out of ditches with it and it accelerates and drives well enough for all the uses I can find for it. Not a judgement but I just cannot imagine needing 6 liters of engine for any task that I am likely to undertake. My 2.8 is the lagest available for this vehicle and most similar vans are running a 2 or 2.2 liter diesel. I only ended up with the 2.8 because I picked the van up s/hand and it was a peach. From choice I would have 2 liter which is more economical and still does the job adequately.

Dennis McDonaugh
04-24-2006, 5:29 PM
Ian, I pull a 12K lb trailer so I need the power 6 liters gives me, but I wish we had more small diesel options like you do in Europe. I'd like a smaller truck with a 3 liter diesel for every day driving.

Frank Fusco
04-24-2006, 5:41 PM
Frank,

I had to chuckle at this - I spend some time on the Prius forum myself, noticed the names, and wondered if there was any connection there. Small world, I guess!

Anyway, I bought a 2005 Prius back in October of last year. With winter driving conditions, my mileage dropped down to about 46-48 mpg. Now that the weather has warmed up, it's been up to around 52-53 mpg. My driving is a mix of city and highway driving, probably about 3/4 highway.

We just returned from our trip to La Crosse, which is about 110 miles from here. Before we left, I checked the tire pressure and inflated them to 40 front and 38 rear (had been at 32/30). I filled up the gas tank a little ways outside of La Crosse on the way back, and as we pulled into the driveway, I was at 59.7 mpg after 91 miles.

The terrain on this drive is mostly rolling hills, and there were several small towns along the way where I slowed down to 30 mph; otherwise my speed was between 55-60.

I don't want to make a Prius love fest out of this, but the Prius can get darn good gas mileage, depending on how it's driven. As far as the cost/benefit analysis, it's very, very difficult to determine, at least with the Prius, just what the "hybrid premium" cost is. There is no non-hybrid production vehicle that compares on an apples-to-apples basis with the Prius, and the stock Prius comes equipped with several options that are typically found on higher-end vehicles. If you were to compare the Prius with a similarly-equipped Camry, there is very little price difference.

I am really enjoying my Prius. It's not a lumber hauler, and it won't suit everyone's needs, but I think it's got a lot going for it. I haven't tried to fit a full sheet of plywood in the cargo area, but I hauled home my big green HF lathe in the back with room to spare.

One of my favorite things is that I never have to fumble with keys. I carry a little transponder in my purse, and as I approach the driver's side door, the car unlocks for me. I get in, push a button, and I'm ready to go!

Scott calls it my alien car. :D

Erin

Hi Erin, yes, small E-World. I e-met Stu here, he lives not far from my cousin in Tokyo, Japan. I'll tell Evan we met.
Frank

Dennis Peacock
04-24-2006, 5:59 PM
Well, with all the statements about the slower you drive the better your mileage. So, why not fill up the Prius, park it in the garage and watch your mileage climb through the roof.? :p :D

Now....what did I do with that extra pair of horseshoes? :confused: :rolleyes:

Ian Barley
04-24-2006, 6:07 PM
Ian, I pull a 12K lb trailer so I need the power 6 liters gives me, but I wish we had more small diesel options like you do in Europe. I'd like a smaller truck with a 3 liter diesel for every day driving.
There you go Dennis - sounds like you have a vehicle that matches your likely needs. I personally think that's the trick. That's why I drive a box van - many of my journeys are carrying furniture. A smaller van would be more economical but have less utility. If I only carried the furniture thrice a year I would hire a van - on the basis that it's more like thrice a week I sacrifice a bit of economy and gain utility.

Jim Becker
04-24-2006, 9:58 PM
Well, with all the statements about the slower you drive the better your mileage. So, why not fill up the Prius, park it in the garage and watch your mileage climb through the roof.?

You laugh...but when I'm sitting in stop-and-go traffic, let's say...on the Interstate when there is a raindrop somewhere in the forecast or all the stupid drivers are out on the road at the same time...I get nearly 100 mpg in either the Prius or the Highlander hybrid. The only time the engine runs is when the batteries drop below a certain point or if the AC compressor kicks in.... :p

Erin Raasch
04-24-2006, 10:36 PM
You laugh...but when I'm sitting in stop-and-go traffic, let's say...on the Interstate when there is a raindrop somewhere in the forecast or all the stupid drivers are out on the road at the same time...I get nearly 100 mpg in either the Prius or the Highlander hybrid. The only time the engine runs is when the batteries drop below a certain point or if the AC compressor kicks in.... :p

Yep, ain't it great to be sitting in traffic thinking about all that $3.00/gal gas you're not burning? :p

Erin

Ken Fitzgerald
04-24-2006, 10:49 PM
In the previous couple of gloats I detect some GLOATING!:rolleyes:

I won't tell you that my F-350, 460 ci, 4:10 rearended, 5-speed manual gets 6 mpg in town and 11 on the highway.......That's what it gets empty or towing my 9,000 lb. 5th wheel camper (My wife calls it a camper...I call it a trailer....I have a hard time calling anything with air conditioning and a microwave...a Camper?:confused: :rolleyes: )....Towing a 3 or 5 horse trailer.......hauling hay.....doesn't matter........6 in and 11 out......:(

Erin Raasch
04-24-2006, 10:57 PM
In the previous couple of gloats I detect some GLOATING!:rolleyes:

I won't tell you that my F-350, 460 ci, 4:10 rearended, 5-speed manual gets 6 mpg in town and 11 on the highway.......That's what it gets empty or towing my 9,000 lb. 5th wheel camper (My wife calls it a camper...I call it a trailer....I have a hard time calling anything with air conditioning and a microwave...a Camper?:confused: :rolleyes: )....Towing a 3 or 5 horse trailer.......hauling hay.....doesn't matter........6 in and 11 out......:(

My last vehicle was a '98 Saturn SL1. It consistently got 40 mpg, and maintenance costs over the 7 years and 85,000 miles I owned it were practically nil: scheduled oil changes, brakes, and that's about it. Nice little car, but it was getting up there in years, so I started early thinking about what I would replace it with. My first thought was to get another Saturn, because that one had been incredibly reliable, but they weren't making a new model that had the EPA ratings that mine had. Seemed they decided to go with more horsepower at the cost of good mileage. I can understand why, 'cause my little 4-cylinder was always a little sluggish climbing hills, but the price of gas had already begun creeping up, and I was looking to improve my gas mileage.

Turns out, the Prius was one of only a few vehicles that would be an improvement for me as far as fuel economy. So far I'm pretty darn pleased with it. 133 miles on the current tank of gas, average mileage 58.8 mpg, mostly highway driving. And not at all sluggish when I need to get up to speed quickly.

Yup, guess that's a gloat! :D

Erin

Dennis Peacock
04-24-2006, 11:06 PM
You laugh...but when I'm sitting in stop-and-go traffic, let's say...on the Interstate when there is a raindrop somewhere in the forecast or all the stupid drivers are out on the road at the same time...I get nearly 100 mpg in either the Prius or the Highlander hybrid. The only time the engine runs is when the batteries drop below a certain point or if the AC compressor kicks in.... :p

OK...you got me there, Jim......But I'm trying to figure out what this "stop-n-go" type traffic is. :confused: :p :D

Andy Hoyt
04-24-2006, 11:09 PM
Ya'll are fuel hogs.

My '98 Ford Exploder consumes (on average) two gallons per week.

Ken Fitzgerald
04-24-2006, 11:11 PM
Erin.........My F-350.....leaves town for a couple of camping trips each summer and fall.........it helps haul hay for an older friend with horses....it hauls lumber and usually moves a couple of kids or friends.....or kids of friends each year. I've had it 11 years now.......bought it used.........Put about $2000 into it in parts and I provided the mechanic knowledge and labor. My youngest son drove it for a year after (1) moving to San Antonio to go to dental school on a extremely good scholarship:D ...(2) trading the Honda Prelude I gave him for a Ninja motorcycle:mad: .....(3) dropping out of dental school:mad: :mad: ......For a year before going into the Navy it was his work truck......I still have only put about 13,000 miles on it in 11 years. Why?.....mpg.........but.........IF you need a big load towed......it's tough to beat!

My wife's primary vehicle is a 3 year old Honda Accord V-6......33-39 mpg on the highway.........plenty of "zip" for traveling up the surrounding mountains............reasonable gas mileage........

I'm waiting for something that has the high gas or diesel mileage and can pull my 5th wheel trailer too!

Jim Becker
04-25-2006, 7:29 AM
OK...you got me there, Jim......But I'm trying to figure out what this "stop-n-go" type traffic is.

Something I rarely see, but will this morning likely as I'm headed to the airport. I'll wave when I fly by. (Having barbecue with Kelly Hanna tonight, however... :D) Most of my driving is local since my office is at home and the "commute" is basically choosing front stairs or back... :)

Mark Pruitt
04-25-2006, 8:07 AM
'

I know a couple of them. That fact doesn't change my thinking. I wouldn't buy a hybrid for the reasons stated. I suspect that those who do get them are dedicated to the technology and or the idea of environmental benefits.
I am not among either crowd - at least not to the degree that I'll make such an investment or forgoe the benefit of more conventional vehicles.
Cliff,
There are indeed those who are dedicated to technology and/or environmental benefits; there are also those of us who are dedicated to containing costs because we are sick of spending mega$$$$ at the pump, due not to lack of resources but to someone's greed. It's not going to get any better. If another Katrina/Rita blows through the Gulf this year (God forbid!!!) we'll be paying over $5 a gallon. It's time to do something about this. That's why I'm seeking information. Like you I have been a little wary of hybrid vehicles in the past. But as Jim has pointed out, they have been around for several years now and seem to have had the major issues resolved.

Jim Bell
04-29-2006, 12:28 AM
I own 3 vehicles Ford F150,Lincoln Town Car and an 04 Mustang Cobra. The truck gets 20 mpg on the road 16 in town, the Lincoln gets 28 or so on the road @ 65 mph and 21 in town. The mustang does 14 or so in town and 25 on the hiway under 80 mph. I keep all 3 maintained and keep the tires inflated. I use synthetics in engines transmissions and rear ends. I like my cars just fine.Please buy those battery haulin fire hazards. I need the fuel. None of these vehicles are "sluggish", as a matter of fact the Mustang produces well over 500 hp. I'm 59 yrs old and just cannot seem to get into this battery thing. I buy batteries for my flashlight. Other than the one battery to start the car and run stuff my experience is limited and will continue to be. Do the batteries in thse little cars need to be charged like an electric wheelchair? I've heard that under the right circumstances those little cars can be as deadly as the electric chair up at the state prison. Well ok now I'm not thin skinned and look forward to the fuel burning tongue lashings to begin,
JIm:D

Curt Fuller
04-29-2006, 1:38 AM
I may be a dreamer, but I'd like to see a bio diesel hybrid developed and built in the good old USA that fits the lifestyles of American drivers. Bio diesel is clean burning (the exhaust smells like popcorn), it can be produced by American farmers lessening the dependence on foreign oil (or domestic oil for that matter), and a high horsepower bio diesel engine combined with Hybrid electric technology would result in a car/truck with economy and clean emissions that would perform in both city and highway and heavy hauling/pulling conditions.

It's nothing against the foreign automakers, they've done fantastic things for the auto industry. But the American lifestyle revolves around the automobile more so than other places in the world and we love our powerful and comfortable vehicles. I just hate to see us giving up what we love if there's a way to have the best of both.

Ian Abraham
04-29-2006, 5:11 AM
My thought is to get the vehicle that matches YOUR needs, not the biggest flashiest one you can.
If you need to tow a boat or a big trailer then maybe you do need a 6l V8. If you just drive to work in it... ummm :o
I drive a little Toyota Corolla wagon, I dont think it's a model you get have in the US, it was never sold new in NZ either. We got the normal Corolla wagons here, nice enough little wagon, but nothing special. Mine was imported 2nd hand from Japan where they have all sorts of weird models. Mine has the 20valve, 165 hp, 1600cc engine same as the MR2 sports car, so it has a bit more pep than the normal 1600 cc engine. Plenty fast enough to have my licence suspended on the spot and the car impounded :eek: (if I was that crazy)
Still gets 30-40 mpg (35avg) in your measurements.
Maybe a Prius would get a little better mileage, but would it make up for the extra cost, and it wouldn't have the performance.

If you want to save gas get a smaller car, even a 2nd hand one, for those long commutes. The right model will perform on the road as well as a larger engined (heavier) car. Sure a V8 may pull away from me in a straight line, but on a winding hilly road it would a close thing.

As a complete aside I was reading about Brazil developing methanol as a fuel. If cars are designed to run on it there is no problem with it. They got slightly less MPG on ethanol, but it was cheaper and the cost worked out the same. Developing cars to run on alcohol or biodiesel makes more sense than just trying to get more mileage from fossil fuels. Doesn't really matter if it's made from corn, soybeans, sugar cane or wood chips, you can allways grow more.

Just my thougths from the other side of the world.

Cheers

Ian

Ken Fitzgerald
04-29-2006, 8:34 AM
Here's a hearty "Aye....Aye" to you Ian! That's the reason my wife and I have a F350 and a Honda Accord. Most of our driving is in the Honda but for a weekend of camping in our 9,000 lb 5th wheel trailer or hauling the lumber or new washer and dryer home.....Bruiser (the 1 ton Ford pickup truck) gets the nod.

Rob Bourgeois
04-29-2006, 8:44 AM
Another concern with wind power believe it or not is Bird Kill!

It seems quite a few birds get hit by the blades. The is some bird loving group who has strong opposition to wind power.
Anotehr issue about wind...is frankly its not powerful enough to produce the needs we currently have. IT would take a area as Big as South Dakota running as many turbines as they can fit to power New York City for a day. Until technology improves wind is not a viable solution.( some doubt it will ever be).

I addition ethanol at its current technology level uses MORE energy to make it than what it gives when you burn it. Thats al great but the oil used to make it would be better spent as gas. Remember the corn has to be harvested, trucked to a processing plant, then heated... So in theory if you dont have gas..you cant make enough ethanol. ( negative energy production)

The solution to all our energy concerns is to cut back and conserve. Whether thats a hybrid car or changing our driving habits that is the only solution until alternative energy technology can improve. It was suggested elswhere that the solution to our oil problem is to drill more wells....a friend said "what a great idea..thats like proposing an end to slavery by buying all the slaves".

Erin Raasch
04-29-2006, 9:11 AM
Anotehr issue about wind...is frankly its not powerful enough to produce the needs we currently have. IT would take a area as Big as South Dakota running as many turbines as they can fit to power New York City for a day. Until technology improves wind is not a viable solution.( some doubt it will ever be).

Actually, the technology has improved significantly over the last 15 years.

Taken from Lester Brown's Plan B 2.0: Rescuing a Planet Under Stress and a Civilization in Trouble:

One of wind’s great appeals is its abundance. When the U.S. Department of Energy released its first wind resource inventory in 1991, it noted that three wind-rich states—North Dakota, Kansas, and Texas—had enough harnessable wind energy to satisfy national electricity needs. Those who had thought of wind as a marginal source of energy obviously were surprised by this finding. 19

In retrospect, we now know that this was a gross underestimate of the wind potential because it was based on the technologies of 1991. Advances in wind turbine design since then enable turbines to operate at lower wind speeds, to convert wind into electricity more efficiently, and to harness a much larger wind regime. In 1991, wind turbines may have averaged scarcely 40 meters in height. Today, new turbines are 100 meters tall, perhaps tripling the harvestable wind. We now know that the United States has enough harnessable wind energy to meet not only national electricity needs, but national energy needs. 20

19. D. L. Elliott, L. L. Wendell, and G. L. Gower, An Assessment of the Available Windy Land Area and Wind Energy Potential in the Contiguous United States (Richland, WA: Pacific Northwest Laboratory, 1991).

20. Ibid.; C. L. Archer and M. Z. Jacobson, “The Spatial and Temporal Distributions of U.S. Winds and Wind Power at 80 m Derived from Measurements,” Journal of Geophysical Research, 16 May 2003.

I think that wind is probably the best viable option we have at present. Theoretically, wind could provide enough electricity to satisfy our current stationary energy needs, and in addition, to recharge fuel cells to run our vehicles. Call me a treehugger, but I envision a day (though probably not in my lifetime) when people will look back and say, "Gee, they actually had to burn stuff to create power!? How primitive!" ;)

Always an optimist and hoping for a greener future,

Erin

Anthony Yakonick
04-30-2006, 12:00 AM
From what I can tell on the Ford/Mercury Hybrid, the real fuel savings would come from in town driving. Cooler climate would be a plus also. I don't think the people in Texas would appreciate pulling up to a long traffic light and it start blowing hot air! :eek: :eek: If you have the Ford/Mercury unit on Max A/C, then the engine is running, thus you lose the fuel savings. I'm guessing the others are the same. I had to certify on the F/M hybrid so that my dealership could certify and be able to sell them, as did the other advisor, shop foreman, manager, and 2 techs. (the really interesting thing from a dealer employee standpoint is the sheppard's hook to safely pull a tech that gets electrocuted to safety!!! [I KID YOU NOT] ) Our dealership hasn't even ordered one yet!! Jim.
We have a hook, good luck finding it when you need it:rolleyes:

Anthony Yakonick
04-30-2006, 12:08 AM
I think the bottom line in the end is fuel savings not money savings at this point in time. From the added cost up front and the cost of repairs after the warranty is up (think of the battery cost) there won't be any money savings.

Mark Pruitt
05-01-2006, 8:42 AM
I think the bottom line in the end is fuel savings not money savings at this point in time. From the added cost up front and the cost of repairs after the warranty is up (think of the battery cost) there won't be any money savings.
Judging from the article someone posted a few days ago (think it was on msn, can't remember), you are correct. Of the major players on the road today, only the Prius is projected to result in both fuel and money saving, but the money saved is only in the neighborhood of $500 over a period of several years. I still think it might be cool to scoot around in one of those little alien shuttles though.:)

Jim Becker
05-01-2006, 9:19 AM
If everyone avoids buying hybrids...which really are a good idea in many ways...because the "payback" is long, than the cost will never come down on the technology. I think that is part of the reason that Toyota is working to make hybrid technology available across the entire model lines as it will stimulate more demand and help bring volume cost advantages faster. Honda has followed suit. The government could help further by removing the cap on the number of vehicles from one manufacturer that qualify for the full tax credit that went into effect on 1 January 2006 (http://www.hybridcars.com/tax-deductions-credits.html). (Previously, it was handled as a $2000 deduction) The $3150 tax credit for the Prius pretty much wipes out the cost delta for a similar non-hybrid vehicle, too...but it only applies under current law until Toyota delivers 60,000 hybrid vehicles for the year to dealers. (You must buy...leasing doesn't qualify)

Cliff Rohrabacher
05-01-2006, 11:04 AM
Well, I am holding out for Nuk-UUU-ler powered cars and trucks. I wanna reactor in my boot.

Unless of course the Gubbermit takes a long and hard look at Brazil's approach and does somethign to make ethanol a reality here.