For what it's worth - Pens

[John Hart]

I was watching the Science Channel last night and they have a program called "How it's Made". A show that showcases various manufacturing processes. Pretty cool usually.

Anyway, they showcased a guy who turns pens by hand and I was interested in a couple techniques he used that I thought I'd share.

1. Gluing the tubes in. He used poly glue, but he brushed water into the blank, then put the glue on the tube and inserted it. He claimed that the water helped the glue to distribute throughout the hole better. It was ready to turn in one hour.

2. He used four coats of poly floor finish. He claimed longevity. They looked nice too.

3. He used a beading tool (just didn't go deep) to make equi-distant grooves in the pen, then used a piece of cherry to burn the inside of the grooves. Looked nice.

4. He didn't use a pen press. Just put some CA at the joins and hammered the parts together with a soft mallet.

Anyway....just thought I share these little tidbits in case anyone is interested.

[Chris Barton]

Very interesting John. I have always enjoyed that show. I could understand this fellows choice of poly for the tubes (I have used urethane glue and water in my "production runs" of pens). And, a urethane finish makes sense too. I have seen burning done with a wire and I have grooved some pen bodies but, I always use a skew.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Very interesting John. I missed it but was hoping they may show it again. Floor poly sounds interesting.

[Jim Becker]

Poly glue is moisture cured...it's "normal" to wet one side of the joint and apply the glue to the other.

[John Hart]

Poly glue is moisture cured...it's "normal" to wet one side of the joint and apply the glue to the other.

Ya know....no one has ever told me that Jim. I need to give my gorilla glue another shot....I really didn't like it and maybe this is the reason why. Thanks:)

[Scott Pearson]

Ya know....no one has ever told me that Jim. I need to give my gorilla glue another shot....I really didn't like it and maybe this is the reason why. Thanks:)


One way to get good bond with poly glue is to mist or brush the glue surfaces with water a few minutes before applying the glue. This does two things it opens up the wood pores and adds mosture to cure the glue. Use sufficient clamp pressure to force the glue into the wood pores and make a tight joint. Poly glue will fill gaps but it does so by foaming, the foam has little or no strength a tight joint with no gaps is best.

Its common when using biscuits, with poly glue, to dip them in water or brush the joint with water right before putting them in the slots.

Scott Pearson

[David Fried]

I use Gorilla glue on pens. I hold the blank under the faucet and run water through the hole. Seems to work. I always let them dry overnight.

I do put a drop of CA on the end plug of the pen so using the pocket clip won't pull it off.

I do use a pen press. I bought it when I didn't have a vise and hadn't turned a bonker yet!

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Ya know....no one has ever told me that Jim. I need to give my gorilla glue another shot....I really didn't like it and maybe this is the reason why. Thanks:)

Geez Mr. Hart, it says so right on the bottle! :rolleyes: :D

[Kurt Aebi]

Gorilla Glue is ALL I've ever used to glue in tubes. I run a wet Q-Tip through the blank and drip a little spiral of glue on the tube and twist while inserting to spread it around well. I've never had a glue failure < knocking wood > yet.

It does state on the bottle to dampen the wood to be joined before applying the glue. I've noticed the joints in edge gluing have worked better if I dampen only 1 side of the joint, not sure why, but that's my observation. I haven't used a biscuit in these joints.

[Jeremiah Jordan]

I have used both epoxy and gorrilla glue. I use expoxy for oily woods and the gorilla glue for non oily woods, only once i had an epoxy glue failure, and that was my fault.

Jeremiah.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I have just started using gorilla glue on pens and it works extremely well by wetting the blank and glue on the brass piece. I use it also to glue the turnings where I use different woods. I does well there also. Kurt I have used it on biscuit joints also. I wet the main wood and put the glue on the biscuit.

[John Hart]

Geez Mr. Hart, it says so right on the bottle! :rolleyes: :D

Oh sure....Read the Instructions....Sheesh!:rolleyes:

[Mike Ramsey]

I've used the poly glue several times, works great cept I don't like
to wait a day to finish the pens.
Bernie! aint no Biscuit talk allowed in here!!:eek:

[John Hart]

I've used the poly glue several times, works great cept I don't like
to wait a day to finish the pens.
Bernie! aint no Biscuit talk allowed in here!!:eek:

Carole's allowed to talk about her bisquits!!! 'course then, she bakes those for Turners!:)

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Very interesting, John. The only thing I would caution is using WATER in the hole of the pen. I did this and took a little time inserting the tube and OOPS.............. the wood swelled up and the tube wouldn't fit. Swapped what went where and it worked perfectly. Glue on the inside of the blank with a Q-tip and dunk the tube in water. Still messy...................the expansion of the glue fills the end of the tube and must be cleaned out good.

Just my experience, but that's why I use mostly CA.

Bruce

[Ed Scolforo]

I don't understand why you would want to use messy Gorilla Glue and have to wait a day or even an hour before turning the blank when you can use CA glue and be ready to turn within ten minutes.
Ed

[John Shuk]

You really should only be putting a thin coat of water in there. A q-tip through the blank should be more than enough. Often times if the wood has a little higher MC the water isn't even needed.

[Curt Fuller]

I've used both Gorilla glue and CA. I've had CA come loose on some cocobolo and olive, I guessed because of the oil in the wood.

As for a pen press, I just use a craftsman 12" bar clamp.

The urethane finish sounds good. Not as quick as some of the friction concoctions but I'm sure it's much more durable.

[Ernie Nyvall]

Thanks for the info John.

I have pondered over the finish for a pen. If you are making one that is meant to last a very long time, what is the best way to finish it. Four coats of poly should certainly last a while, but will it eventually start to flake off instead of wearing off smoothly? I'm not sure I'd want to build up a finish on a pen for fear of that happening. Pens aren't like a piece of furniture that you can protect from every day use with a doily. Well... okay... maybe Andy does.

I just did some fountain pens for someone who said they wanted to pass them down. They were those $35 fountain pen kits with amboyna and mallee burls. I sanded them to 24,000 and then hit them with the buffing wheel and wax. I told the person to wipe them down with a waxed rag from time to time when they got dull. True, the wood is not protected like a poly would protect it, but if you take care of a pen like that, the oils in your hands would eventually be the finish, and without a noticeable transition.

Now, if you are making pens to have an inventory, and they are going to sell for $25 to $40, and you need for them to stay shiny until they are sold, then maybe a hard finish is the way to go. These probably wont be lifetime pens, but then, you never know.

It's just that partially worn hard finishes are really ugly. Wood that's been held and used for years that's had no finish but the natural oils in the hand... well, there's nothing like it.

I'm going to go ponder some more... while I'm eating.

Ernie

[John Hart]

Thanks for your ponderin' Ernie. I had some thoughts on the poly as well. In the past, I've used minwax floor finish on the majority of my flatwork projects with great success. Kinda got a feel for preventing that "plastic" look, and was pretty pleased with it. Then, a year ago, I started turning and mentioned that I was going to finish something with the poly....I got a resounding "Ewwwwwww..yuk.." from the gang here at SMC. I decided that perhaps there was more to life than poly.:o

So...for the past year, I've been trying new finishes and found some that I like very much. I did think that it was interesting that he used a floor finish, since it is durable against shoes and scratches...maybe it is worthwhile on a pen.

Personally...I probably won't try it. I like the BLO/DNA/Shellac mixture and I really really really like to spray lacquer! (hic) :o :)

[Dick Strauss]

John,
I use an everyday pipe/bar clamp for pen assembly. Make sure you use the plastic pads on the clamp faces while pressing together.

[Frank Fusco]

I stopped using the poly glues because of storage problems. Poly does requre moisture but moisture is not the same as 'wet'. In a humid environment you are already all set. In a dry climate just breathing through the tube is sufficient. Putting water into a wood tube is asking for problems like cracking. I switched to 5 min. epoxy and have stayed with it. His "hammering" of parts during assembly sounds ditzy to me. The transmissions are very soft and can be crumbled with finger pressure and hammering is not an accurate way to seat them correctly. Lacking a press, a bench vice works fine. There are other 'how to's', even PSI's free DVD is pretty good for the beginner. At least he doesn't hammer delicate parts. I have burned rings but find that, for pens, there is great risk is cutting right through to the tube as the wood is very thin on a finished pen. Cutting a groove with a V tool then filling with a colored substance is an option. I have used gold and silver acrylics with some success.

[Mac McAtee]

You can get all the moisture that the glue needs by simply blowing through the blank before you put the glue and tube in. I apply the glue with a q-tip, while I am loading the q-tip up, I put the blank in my mouth and exhale gently through the hole, that little bit of additonal mosiure is all it needs and with most woods, unless you are in the high desert where there is no humidity at all.

[Mac McAtee]

And I might also add that there are now "low foaming" poly glues out there that do not foam up nearly as much as Gorilla Glue. The stuff I am using foams about 1/3 as much. I have been using ViseTite Polyurethane that is made by a company called Jowat.

[Ernie Nyvall]

You can get all the moisture that the glue needs by simply blowing through the blank before you put the glue and tube in. I apply the glue with a q-tip, while I am loading the q-tip up, I put the blank in my mouth and exhale gently through the hole, that little bit of additonal mosiure is all it needs and with most woods, unless you are in the high desert where there is no humidity at all.

Hmm... seems like a lot of hot air to me.:p :D Sorry, I couldn't resist.:D Guess I'll have to try this.

Ernie

[John Hart]

I agree that hammering is just not the right approach if you want consistency. Maybe the reason he used CA to seat his pen parts is because he hammers them. Personally I used my drill press before I got a pen press....I definitely prefer pressing.:)

[Blake McCully]

Hmm.... As the GG bottle says, moisten one part then glue the other. I've been using either GG or CA for a couple of years and have never moistened either surface when using GG. I simply swab out the blank with a thin coat of glue, the run a couple beads on the the tube. Twist while inserting and set aside. I've never had a failure. I usually only use GG when one of two situations occur. The first is if the hole in the blank is too big, I have one particular kit from Berea where this occurs, I can't recall the name, and I use their drill bit too. The other instance is if the tube is snug on the dry fit, I will use GG at that time. I always dry fit my tubes before gluing, good practice to get into. Snug fitting tubes and CA don't usually work well together, damhikt:confused: .

I use a one ton arbor press to put my pens together, NO, not the whole 1 ton:rolleyes:

[John Hart]

Hey Blake...I heard that the expansion of the GG had a tendency to crack the wood....This is one of the primary reasons I haven't really used it. Since you are my primary pen-mentor...maybe I should reconsider. How long do you wait before turning after glue up?

[Paul Downes]

The only problem I've had using poly glue is; after using a q-tip to wet the inside of the tube with water, I use a scrap piece of wood to spread some glue inside the blank and then roll the tube in the glue for about 1/2 the tube. Sometimes I can barely force the tube all the way into the blank. I noticed the other day that the glue starts foaming pretty quick and maybe that's why it's sometimes difficult to get the tube in. I have been trying to get a more complete coating of glue in the blank because I have noticed that on some of my turning failures/blowups that I had incompleat glue coverage. Some of the drill sizes don't allow much clearance for the tube. I haven't measured tube /blank gaps, but maybe I will to try to find the best clearance.

[Blake McCully]

Hey Blake...I heard that the expansion of the GG had a tendency to crack the wood....This is one of the primary reasons I haven't really used it. Since you are my primary pen-mentor...maybe I should reconsider. How long do you wait before turning after glue up?
John,
I've never experienced the cracking problem, but then I've never used it on a blank smaller than 5/8". I usually let it set over night.

How I manage the waiting time, is if I have a bunch I want to do. I'll cut, drill, and glue about 5 or so in the evening. Then the next day, I turn the ones I did the night before, then before I quit, I do the same thing over again. Sometimes I'll even let the ones glued up with CA sit over nite. It certainly won't hurt them. Besides waiting for the GG to set up is no problem, just turn something else.

I'll be posting a pic of the pen I did with one of the blanks from Stu. Hopefully I'll get to it tomorrow.

Hmmm... just thinking:eek: , maybe the reason I've never experienced a blank cracking with GG is that I DON"T use any type of moisture. Food for thought:confused: