Byrd Cutterhead For New Jointer

[Rob Will]

If you were going to purchase a 16" jointer equipped with a Byrd cutterhead, where would you start looking?

Is there any cost savings to simply equip the jointer with the Byrd as purchased rather than buying a jointer and changing the cutterhead?

Thanks,
Rob

[Ken Belisle]

Probably the Bridgewood at Wilke Machinery.............

[Richard Wolf]

Mini Max F1. It does not have the Byrd cutter but comes with the Tersa head as standard eqipment.
It is a beautiful machine that has been on my short list for awhile.

Richard

[John Miliunas]

Rob, I agree with Ken on Bridgewood from Wilke. You'd have to call them to find out for sure but, I think if you purchase the Byrd at the same time, they may install it for you prior to shipment. Not sure if there would be a cost savings, so if you go that route, be sure they also send you the original head w/knifes, as you can probably recoup some $$ selling it on "the Bay". :) :cool:

[Rob Will]

Rob, I agree with Ken on Bridgewood from Wilke. You'd have to call them to find out for sure but, I think if you purchase the Byrd at the same time, they may install it for you prior to shipment. Not sure if there would be a cost savings, so if you go that route, be sure they also send you the original head w/knifes, as you can probably recoup some $$ selling it on "the Bay". :) :cool:

Thanks gents,
I have been looking at the Wilke Items.
Rob

[Alden Miller]

I agree with Bridgewood but I would also take a look at the Oliver jointers.

I recently purchased a 10" Oliver and it is a thing of beauty! I looked hard at the 12" Bridgewood while I was shopping and settled on the Oliver. The Oliver has four choices for cutter heads. Standard, spiral, and two insert cutter heads (Byrd being one of them).

-Alden

[Brent Harral]

If and when you do call Wilke, ask for Steve. He's a saleman but had been a tech for many years and knows his product, and will give you his un-biased opinion...really! I recently bought a 12" BW jointer and he could talk through the pro and cons of every cutterhead option.

I'm sure you know, but there is the import version of the Bryd. About half the price, is readily available and Wilke can install these cutterheads on their machines..

Good Luck..

[Dev Emch]

If and when you do call Wilke, ask for Steve. He's a saleman but had been a tech for many years and knows his product, and will give you his un-biased opinion...really! I recently bought a 12" BW jointer and he could talk through the pro and cons of every cutterhead option.

I'm sure you know, but there is the import version of the Bryd. About half the price, is readily available and Wilke can install these cutterheads on their machines..

Good Luck..

Brent...
Be careful here. The SHELIX head looks similar to others but its got patent protection. If someone is importing a shear cutting insert head, I am sure there are a number of folks who would truely like to know about this!

[Brent Harral]

Yep, er...no...I mean you are correct! :D I know just enough about all these cutterheads to properly confuse, ME! Was just trying to point out there are *similar* types that have been around for while, and may fit the bill at a lessor cost.

Thanks for clarifying that!

[Dev Emch]

Yep, er...no...I mean you are correct! :D I know just enough about all these cutterheads to properly confuse, ME! Was just trying to point out there are *similar* types that have been around for while, and may fit the bill at a lessor cost.

Thanks for clarifying that!

THis is true. You can find a zero degree shear angle geometry head for lots less. But truth is, these are not all cracked up to what folks say.

My buddy has a slab of nice walnut burl about 14 inches square and about 1/2 inch thick. High Figure. Its glass smooth with virtually no and I do mean no tearout. This was planed using a 1950s Oliver 299 three knife planer. The knives were schmidt T1 and ground and honed using the onboard insitu knife grinder. The feed rollers, pressure bar and chip breaker were dialed in using a typical dial indicator setup. About 2 hours to tune up the whole machine including grinding and honing of the knives.

Realisticly, it dont get any better than this! Today he is running a hoffman jointer/planer with a terminus head using HSS knives. Similar results with similar figure. THe only difference is that the knives pop into place and because they register in almost the same place, it is not necessary to readjust your chipbreaker, pressure bar and feedrollers each time you change out knives. Only once to establish reference. This is because the terminus head is a constant cutting circle head as is the insert type head as well.

In my book, the best finish I know of was the result of a finely tuned planer using an onboard knife grinder and honing rig. That and having its settings dialed in using a dial indicator. I have seen the results of insert heads including the byrd head and they are all good. Are they better to the old knives? Not Really. Easier to work with? Yes, but after you grind and hone your knives about two or three times, the process becomes old hack. So the direct convenience advantage goes away.

And remember that for the nasty grain on a jointer, you always have the ability to skew cut on a wide bed jointer. You also have the option of using a set of back beveled knives as well. So for now, I simply cannot justify the purchase of a byrd head as I am able to replicate the performance to within 98 percent and the remaining two percent is super high figure pagan grain which I am not usually working with.

Just a few thoughts...

[Rob Will]

I'm not really qualified to comment on this but it does seem to me that the wider a given cutterhead is, the better an insert head would perform relative to a straight blade cutter head.

For example if you are using a 16" jointer with straight blades, that is a lot of knife striking the work at the exact same instant and creating chatter. A small jointer would have far less blade striking at the same instant.

It is logical that a helical insert head would have even less noise and vibration.

Rob

[Paul B. Cresti]

OK Guys I just do not get it call me thick headed.... why is it so important for a cutter head to be quiet??? I put my hearing protection on, no matter what, and I work away. I could care less if the cutter head spinning is 10 decibels less. What is next window treatments in the shop ;). Second.. why would someone want to spin or change all of those little knives? Believe me once you use a Tersa head on a nice wide jointer nothing else matters...

[tod evans]

it`s not a jointer, but i can carry on a conversation in a normal tone of voice standing next to my 20" planer with a tersa head, in fact the d/c is actually louder than the planer...about 2min. to change all four knifes...02 tod

[Dev Emch]

it`s not a jointer, but i can carry on a conversation in a normal tone of voice standing next to my 20" planer with a tersa head, in fact the d/c is actually louder than the planer...about 2min. to change all four knifes...02 tod
Thats nice Todd.... And my brother's wife complained about my dodge diesel being so loud. That she could not hear the folks on the other end of the cell phone while driving.

WHAT! THey just determined that drivers with cell phone pose a greater thret to us all than the drunk driver. See insurance studies.

The last thing I want is a jointer operator carrying on a cell phone conversation at the same time. As my main man Homer SImpson says... DOHHH!

For me, any option is ultimately one of quality. How can your solution improve upon what I currently have. The extra cost of a bryd cutter does not justify making my neigbors happy nor does it beat the cost of my ex air force hearing protectors! To me its about cost and finish! And if I dealt with more tropicals than I do, I might opt for the bryd because terminus carbide is major money and the bryd inserts are industry standard with four sides.

[tod evans]

dev, for me the money comes into play not at the cost of the head or even the knifes but the amount of time needed to change/sharpen/rotate the knifes when dull or nicked. i was never able to get the cover off the old pm machines, dial in the wheel and grind the knifes, reassemble the cover and get back to work in less than 45min. so being as you`re working in straight grained lumber any head should do you an acceptable job as far as cutting goes. once again we`re to how much time can you afford to spend every x-number of feet fiddling with your cutters? over the life of a persons career as a one man band you should never wear out good equipment so really the cost is relevent only when divided by the number of hours spent making a head perform over the length of your career. .02 tod

[JayStPeter]

OK Guys I just do not get it call me thick headed.... why is it so important for a cutter head to be quiet??? I put my hearing protection on, no matter what, and I work away. I could care less if the cutter head spinning is 10 decibels less. What is next window treatments in the shop ;). Second.. why would someone want to spin or change all of those little knives? Believe me once you use a Tersa head on a nice wide jointer nothing else matters...

Put your shop in a basement and try to do some work during your only free time ... while your kids are sleeping upstairs. My "soundproofing" works well for most things, but the planer and jointer are darn loud. With the byrd head, my jointer is no longer a problem. Hearing protection is not required. In fact, I stopped wearing it because I can't tell by sound how big a bite my jointer is taking with it on. I wish I had a byrd on my planer now.
Second, spinning or changing all the knives is still much faster than setting standard knives. Not as fast as a Tersa, about 15 min. for an 8" jointer. Like a tersa, no real chance for out of adjustment so it's a mindless operation instead of a frustrating one.

FWIW, a former coworker had one of the less expensive import spiral insert cutterhead and had quite similar results to my Byrd. The difference is the knives hit the wood square instead of at a shearing angle. I didn't appear to make much difference, but we never did a head-to-head comparison. He showed me some gnarly wood and it was as smooth a surface as I get.
As an add-on for an 8" jointer, I found the Byrd wasn't much more expensive than the import versions, but I did get it on sale. Price delta may be more significant on the wider ones. I plan to get a byrd for my planer so I have compatible inserts.

[tod evans]

roy, here`s a 20" with the tersa head...02 tod

36826

[Paul B. Cresti]

Put your shop in a basement and try to do some work during your only free time ... while your kids are sleeping upstairs. My "soundproofing" works well for most things, but the planer and jointer are darn loud. With the byrd head, my jointer is no longer a problem. Hearing protection is not required. In fact, I stopped wearing it because I can't tell by sound how big a bite my jointer is taking with it on. I wish I had a byrd on my planer now.
.

Jay,
I began with my shop at one time in my basement of my Cape (first house) and I had no insulation in the first floor joists and at that time and I had a baby (three kids now) . So I know what it is like. That being said, woodworking machinery requires noises...other wise it would be called knitting ;)
Sorry I just do not see the "less noise" as a selling point, to me that is. Changing/spinning little cutters also has no appeal to me when with something like a Tersa you simply slide out the old & slide in the new. If tear out is an issue then just shear the cut or wet the wood a bit.

[Jim Becker]

O Believe me once you use a Tersa head on a nice wide jointer nothing else matters...
Well...I love my Tersas, too. But if I worked with A LOT of very figured AND wide stock, I'd certainly consider a change to some form of "spiral" cutting system. Tersa knives are still straight knives and at some point they suffer from the same issues with highly figured material as any other straight knife system, even when they are squeaky-clean-brand-new. There is no one best answer for all situations.

As to the noise issue, a lower decibel level at the machine is always desirable, even when using hearing protection, especially for someone spending a lot of time milling lumber. The Tersa heads on our Mini Max J/Ps are pretty quiet in that respect, but it's negated by the hood designs which really tend to scream. My J/P is the only stationary tool in my shop that I unfailingly wear hearing protection with because when the DC is running (and that is 100% of the time with this tool), the hood screams and amplifies the cutting noise. This is especially true in jointer mode. Nature of the beast.

[John sexton]

I have run at least 30,000 ft through a Byrd head and I still haven't had to spin any of the cutters.
I did have to change 6 cutters when a 1/16" stainless steal plate came
unscrewed from the in-feed of our 4 sided Logasol molder and the Byrd head ate the thing.
I love how quiet the Byrd head is.

[Dan Larson]

I've found this to be an interesting discussion, since I recently ordered a Byrd head for my Rojek J/P. I'll add my 2 cents worth.

My main motivation to upgrade from the standard 4 knife cutterhead that came with the machine was convenience. I'm a hobbiest with very limited shop time. When I'm in the shop I want to working with wood. I don't want to be fiddling around with J/P knives any more than I have to. Lately I've been working with tropical hardwoods, so the knives have required more frequent attention than I'm willing to provide.

So why Byrd over Tersa? The Tersa would have been less hassle for me since the head is an off the shelf item from Rojek. I was at first leaning in this direction. A call to the Rojek sales rep changed my mind. He told me that the Byrd head was cheaper than Tersa and also gave a much better cut. It's worth pointing out that the cut quality issue of the Tersa is specific to my machine. The inferior cut with this head is the result of the machine's relatively high planer feed rate in combination with the Tersa head for my machine only being a 3 knife set-up. Well anyway, it was a no-brainer choice based on this information alone. It's nice that the Byrd is quieter and will be less prone to tearout, but these advantages were just icing on the cake for me.

In 8-10 weeks the Byrd head should be sitting on my doorstep. I can't wait!!!

Dan

[Rob Will]

My new shop is under construction but that hasn't kept us from having a little fun with the Byrd equipped PM225 (15 hp, 24") planer.

A few people have asked to see the "new" planer so we sit it outside the shop door with a forklift and plug into a twist-lock extension cord.

I then announce: "This is going to be LOUD". People take step back and get ready to cover thier ears.

When I place a board or two in the machine, jaws drop. The usual reaction: "I can't believe how quiet that thing is".

I say noise=vibration and vibration=noise.

Ahhh.....hillbillies impressing the neighbors with giant WW machines out in the driveway......priceless

Rob

[Ian Barley]

I have run at least 30,000 ft through a Byrd head and I still haven't had to spin any of the cutters.
I did have to change 6 cutters when a 1/16" stainless steal plate came
unscrewed from the in-feed of our 4 sided Logasol molder and the Byrd head ate the thing.
I love how quiet the Byrd head is.
John

Can you confirm that you are running the Byrd head in the Logosol or have I misunderstood? I have recently acquired a Logosol and love it except that changing blades is a pain. Are you running Byrd on top and bottom horizontals? Did you fit it/them yourself and if so mind giving a few more details?

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

.......... What is next window treatments in the shop ;)...........

OK 1st, I'm shocked....SHOCKED that you do not have window treatments in the shop Paul, I would, but I don't have windows ;)

I have a very old two blade jointer, I hone the blades using my Veritas jig, and then I set my blades up using a dial indicator, took me a few hours the first time I did it :o takes me about 15 to 20 minutes now.

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/jointer/knife_opening2.jpg
(Pre clean up and refurbishing)

I do not do a lot of high figure stuff, I get a nice clean flat finish.

Would I like one of these nice special heads? Sure, absolutely, you bet, but I've got a lot of other things on my list first.

It is very interesting reading the different pros and cons of the various types, thanks for the thread guys!

Cheers!

[John sexton]

John

Can you confirm that you are running the Byrd head in the Logosol or have I misunderstood? I have recently acquired a Logosol and love it except that changing blades is a pain. Are you running Byrd on top and bottom horizontals? Did you fit it/them yourself and if so mind giving a few more details?

We have a Byrd on the bottom we also have two Grizzly heads for the sides when we aren't running a profile (really cant tell the difference in the cuts but we are mainly running cedar) We still have the knives on the top.
I also have a Byrd head on my planer and I love it.
Yes we put them in ourselves.

[Jay T. Marlin]

OK Guys I just do not get it call me thick headed.... why is it so important for a cutter head to be quiet??? I put my hearing protection on, no matter what, and I work away. I could care less if the cutter head spinning is 10 decibels less. What is next window treatments in the shop ;). Second.. why would someone want to spin or change all of those little knives? Believe me once you use a Tersa head on a nice wide jointer nothing else matters...
Nothing wrong with defending your own machine, but there is something wrong with badmouthing other machines when you haven't even tried them.

So what's the story? Have you ever used a spiral cutterhead? :rolleyes:

Noise - I can't believe you are trying to knock down this attribute. "Who cares about noise?" Plenty of people. Are you implying that anyone who doesn't want to deal with the noise is a sissy?

Turning little inserts- Sure, it takes 3 minutes to change your Tersa knives, but carbide stays useable 10 times longer than HSS. You can't argue against that fact. If you do, then I must question your frequent recommendations for Lenox carbide bandsaw blades.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Nothing wrong with defending your own machine, but there is something wrong with badmouthing other machines when you haven't even tried them.

So what's the story? Have you ever used a spiral cutterhead? :rolleyes:

Noise - I can't believe you are trying to knock down this attribute. "Who cares about noise?" Plenty of people. Are you implying that anyone who doesn't want to deal with the noise is a sissy?

Turning little inserts- Sure, it takes 3 minutes to change your Tersa knives, but carbide stays useable 10 times longer than HSS. You can't argue against that fact. If you do, then I must question your frequent recommendations for Lenox carbide bandsaw blades.

Jay,
So my opinion is "knocking down" or "bad mouthing" another machine? Maybe we should all keep or opinions to ourselves then :confused: ......not sure I recommended Lennox carbide blaces (but I am sure you will correct me if a I am wrong)... I just use them. Fact is I also get just as good resaw ability with non-carbide blades they just do not last as long.

There a lot of machines I have not tried (many I do not care to) and many I have....how about yourself? If you do not like my opinions then just say so ;) ... I guess this place is getting a little sensitive to strong honest opinions

[Dev Emch]

Well folks, i have been watching this episode of the Bryd versus the tersa etc. for some time. You say tomaaaaatoe and I say tomatoe. But in all the flying fur and discusion, one head has never really come up.

The main advantage of the shelix head is its shear angle. This whole shelix concept is patanted, etc. bla bla bla. Now, if you truely think about this, a 100 percent helical cutting edge is by its very definition shear in its nature. That is, if I could get a knife that was made like a rotini noodle, I would have a shear cutting action. Well, I have seen knives like this. Ungodly expensive and next to impossible to sharpen. But they were on the market long before carbide and long before bryd.

Fast forward to the future. If you can create this continuous spiral edge using a series of carbide facets, then you get the best of all worlds. You dont have the staggering issues of conventional inserts and you can grind and hone the knife in the machine with an appropriate grinder bar and honing jig.

Does such a head exist? YES! Newman Whitney who has been making planers since the cows were DNA specimens makes this very head. ITs called the quiethead and if you beg plead and pay them enough, you can get it for just about anything albeit its easier to source for a whitney or newman whitney planer.

In reviewing this head, I believe this design is vastly superior to just about anything I have seen so far. Its only true limiation being cost and availability. This is esp. true if I were looking for a replacement head for a modern machine such as a grizzly. But this head can put the shelix to shame....

[tod evans]

but dev although this head is beautiful and functional how does it affect the bottom dollar? does it run longer between sharpenings? how long does it take to sharpen/change knifes? for those working exclusively in figured wood often a widebelt is a better solution than chancing tearout on any planer....02 tod

[Philip Glover]

Tod brings up a question that I often wonder about when considering something like a Northfield with the helical carbide head and grinder.
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/machineoptions/surfaceroptions/cutterhead/
If one has a decent widebelt like a DCM or Kundig, is that wonderful, big $, helical head necessary?

Phil

[John sexton]

This is becoming silly. I have Timberwolf carbide blades and Lenox Trimester blades, I prefer Timberwolf.(both 1" )
The noise reduction of the Byrd head alone worth the price, also the cut is great.
(being nice to your neighbors is also worth something to some people)
So I guess now I am putting my opinion up against some of the long standing members of this form.
I love my Byrd head.

[John Miliunas]

This is becoming silly. I have Timberwolf carbide blades and Lenox Trimester blades, I prefer Timberwolf.(both 1" )
The noise reduction of the Byrd head alone worth the price, also the cut is great.
(being nice to your neighbors is also worth something to some people)
So I guess now I am putting my opinion up against some of the long standing members of this form.
I love my Byrd head.

Hey John, FWIW, I'm kind of a long standing member here, too and, IMHO, the Byrd is hard to beat! Quiet, smooth cuts, ease of changeover and, due to the carbide, that last item doesn't happen very often! :D BUT, what I really want to know is: What BS are you putting those blades on??? I've only got a 16" and have heard the carbides don't do well on wheels that small. Inquiring minds want to know and yes, sorry for stealing the thread! :o :) :cool:

[Dev Emch]

This is becoming silly. I have Timberwolf carbide blades and Lenox Trimester blades, I prefer Timberwolf.(both 1" )
The noise reduction of the Byrd head alone worth the price, also the cut is great.
(being nice to your neighbors is also worth something to some people)
So I guess now I am putting my opinion up against some of the long standing members of this form.
I love my Byrd head.
Folks complain about noise. That planers are so load and jointers are just obnoxsious.

Let me tell you about load. Load is having to yell to tourists in the presence of a 80 year old open frame westinghouse alternator driving a morse fairbanks DC exciter getting with all the ponies comming from a 690 horse power Francis turbine made by the worthington company. This may be older technology and some claim its environmentally clean as its hydroelectric. But I have never been in the presence of a loader machine than this. Its smaller than those at hoover but you cannot get this close and the units at hoover have sound proofing and are in larger areas. Your ears will be ringing for a couple of days even with protection! They had to build a phone booth inside the power house because you cannot use the phone in the open presence of this tiny generation system.

So for many of us who love older machines and restore them, the sound is often one of the things that is appealing. Heck, I can buy CDs with nothing more than recordings of various older engines and steam powered locos starting up and running. Throw in a bit of dolby 5.1 and a few base amps and you will never notice the presence of a bryd head.:D

[Rob Will]

OK Paul, give me the beginner's version of what a Tersa cutterhead is all about. Got any pics?

BTW: I have a full set of knives for the PM "quiet one" head (24"). I heard they were worth $1000 (?). Heck, I'll throw in the entire head for that. Anyone have comments on the value of these discontinued knives?

Rob

[tod evans]

This is becoming silly. I have Timberwolf carbide blades and Lenox Trimester blades, I prefer Timberwolf.(both 1" )
The noise reduction of the Byrd head alone worth the price, also the cut is great.
(being nice to your neighbors is also worth something to some people)
So I guess now I am putting my opinion up against some of the long standing members of this form.
I love my Byrd head.

john, the good thing about this forum is no matter who you are you`re entitled to your opinions. doesn`t matter if you`ve been here a week or sence the onset. and does it really matter if you drive a chevy or a ford?
that`s why everyone chips in their .02 and most of the time the debates are friendly and informative. so are you using your equipment in an in an industrial/production enviornment or in a hobbiest enviornment? tod

[John sexton]

Hey John, FWIW, I'm kind of a long standing member here, too and, IMHO, the Byrd is hard to beat! Quiet, smooth cuts, ease of changeover and, due to the carbide, that last item doesn't happen very often! :D BUT, what I really want to know is: What BS are you putting those blades on??? I've only got a 16" and have heard the carbides don't do well on wheels that small. Inquiring minds want to know and yes, sorry for stealing the thread! :o :) :cool:

I am using them on a GO566 with a power feeder I resaw mostly cedar but I do cut some hard woods.
The Lenox blade gives a very nice cut but I find that the Timberwolf carbide feels smoother going through the wood and gives me a slightly better cut.

[John Miliunas]

I am using them on a GO566 with a power feeder I resaw mostly cedar but I do cut some hard woods.
The Lenox blade gives a very nice cut but I find that the Timberwolf carbide feels smoother going through the wood and gives me a slightly better cut.

Dang it! I was afraid of that! I think it may not be worth the risk getting one for my 16"er... Thanks for the info! :) :cool: