designing my workbench - vise questions

[Mark Pruitt]

After searching everywhere I knew to look and not finding anything that totally pleased me, I've decided to make my own workbench. Now comes the really fun part.:rolleyes:

Been thumbing through Landis' Workbench Book and making mental notes on what I like/don't like, and am now upon some questions that I would appreciate hearing your thoughts about.

For the vise at the end, I like the "face" design better than the "L" shaped tail vise. My favorite design is the Acorn bench which is no longer in production but you can still get plans. Here is the picture:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00024W836.01-A2EDP3O6BF4F63._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

I like the idea of two rows of dog holes, as it opens up some possibilities for clamping that the L vise won't do. I'm concerned, though, that if I use the end vise and only one row of holes (i.e., working on only one side of the bench) I will skew the vise hardware, eventually causing damage if I do it repeatedly. So, my idea on how to prevent such damage from happening is to clamp a scrap board on the opposite side of the bench from where I'm working, so as to equalize the pressure that is applied across the vise hardware. This is going to be my first experience with installing vises, and I want to be sure I'm thinking correctly.

My other question at this point is this: Is there a standard ratio for distance between guide bars to maximum possible width (end to end as you face the vise) of the wooden "face" piece?

TIA,
Mark

[Rich Person]

You could always use a Veritas twin screw vice on the end. That should handly that application better. That is what I'm adding to my bench in progress.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=45114&cat=1,41637,41652

[Bernhard Kühnen]

Mark,

this is a valid point to equalize the pressure. Question is how often do you need this big vise of leevalley because it does always take some time to find a piece of scrap which has the distance of your working piece.

Maybe some of the guys using this leevalley vise can give some information.

I wish to make one remark regarding the place for dropping tools. The european bench has very often such a place at the end while David Charlesworth recommends this place in the middle.

Maybe this is worthwhile considering.

Good Luck
Bernhard

[Larry Fox]

I have a bench very much like the one pictured. I built it from plans in a mag (I forget which one). I have the Lee Valley Twin Screw vice on one end which gets used rather infrequently but that is more of an issue of it's location in my shop. It is a fine vice. However, I would like to make a comment about the side vice shown in the picture. I have one arranged in exactly the same manner with Red Oak jaws on it. It has one driver screw and two guide rods. If you try to clamp something in one side of it and don't balance the pressure on the other with scrap or something it definitely skews. This forces you to clamp it tighter than you should have to. I consider myself to be a generally patient and forgiving man but I DETEST - I mean DETEST - this vice and the way it operates. I have spent a lot of time pondering how I might modify the arrangement to fix the problem but can't seem to come up with a good solution. Sorry about the rant but it might help you avoid a similar problem.

[Dev Emch]

Hi Mark...

Some quickie info. The L shaped vise you talked about is often confused in terms of what it can do and its shape. The horn making the L of the end vise is often a leftover from when a single screw was used to implement the vise. See the vise built by Frank Klaus. The L horn is used to support an aft runner whose job is to counter act the torque generated from the clamping torque generated by having the dog holes out of line with the screw axis. It is virtually impossible to eliminate this torque due to the problem description but one should always seek to minimize it. Installing a twin screw vise back there is about the worst thing you can do. Here you are maximizing this torquer and not mimimizing it. This ultimately and sooner than later for that matter, will spring the vise hardware. This is not a good thing.

In the modern end vise implementation, hardware including a way plate and screw are used in place of the old fashioned screw only approach. Firms like woodcraft sell these kits and even Lie Nielsen used this approach to implement the vise. The advantage to this approach is that the vise dog axis and vise screw axis are about as inline as one can hopefully attempt to achieve. Also, anyone installing the L horn on this implementation is doing so only for the looks. The face of the L horn is not really suited for clamping stuff to the end of the bench. So it may be a prudent idea to simply leave this portion of the end vise out.

Two of these end vises can work together for clamping odd items like table tops. You do not need to syncronize the motion of these two vises and actually you will find that you dont wish to. About 90 percent of any work is often done on the front using only the single end vise. Its only the occasional oddity that needs the second aft end vise.

Lastly the screws sold in the end vise kit by woodcraft are made in germany are 1.25 inches in diameter and have heavy duty acme threads. This is a super strong and very nice vise screw.

Hope this all helps and good luck...

[Alan DuBoff]

I'm concerned, though, that if I use the end vise and only one row of holes (i.e., working on only one side of the bench) I will skew the vise hardware, eventually causing damage if I do it repeatedly. So, my idea on how to prevent such damage from happening is to clamp a scrap board on the opposite side of the bench from where I'm working, so as to equalize the pressure that is applied across the vise hardware. This is going to be my first experience with installing vises, and I want to be sure I'm thinking correctly.This is a very common solution, and all that is required is to insert a piece of scrap wood on the side of the vise that sits on the opposite side of your work.

I was originally planning to build a bench that had a quick release vise on the end, using a full width vise jaw, and yes, those will skew. The reason I wanted to do that was purely for the quick release. Bob Smalser has a bench with a similar setup on it.

Then, after thinking about it I decided that the twin-screw was the right tool for the job, so I put the quick release on another bench, and coincidentally just remounted it with a new apron and jaw, which you can see here:

http://www.softorchestra.com/woodworking/tools/bench_renovation/small_top_mounted.jpg

http://www.softorchestra.com/woodworking/tools/bench_renovation/

This is really to be used to build a REAL bench. The REAL bench has been planned for a long time, and I've had the hardware and most of the wood, until recent, when I acquired the last of the wood I need.

The new bench will be based (the top anyway) on Lon Schleining's working in "The Workbench" book he wrote, and in FWW #167. I will have a different base, but the top will be similar, and my bench will have a twin-screw on the end, and an emmert clone on the front for a face vise.

FWIW, the twin-screw will skew and can be adjusted manually by disengaging the chain (which connects both screws) and clamping the skewed work.

The emmert clone will skew to 20% with the optional jaw.

My other question at this point is this: Is there a standard ratio for distance between guide bars to maximum possible width (end to end as you face the vise) of the wooden "face" piece?That really depends on the vise, AFAIK. Each vise will have different ability, depending on the actualy vise size, how it works, etc...

My suggestion is don't cheat yourself on your bench, it is one of the most used tools in anyone's shop, IMO.

[lou sansone]

I vote for the single shoulder vise at the end. I have 2 benches with them and they are great. If you are going to do clamp up / glue up you dont want to tie your bench up with it. Here is a tip for the glue up

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=28572

lou

[Philip Glover]

I have a bench similar to the one pictured with a Veritas Twin Screw Vise.<O:p</O:p
It is 31" wide with three dog holes. One row is centered and the outer two rows are outside of the drive screws .75 in center-line to center-line.<O:p</O:p
Underneath the bench top there are two oil-impregnated composite rub blocks that the vise drive screws rub against. These blocks prevent the vise from sagging when opened wide. The sag is a minor drawback, but is rarely encountered by me.<O:p</O:p
I use the twin screw vise as much as I use the front vise. I am working on some teak chairs now and this vise is indispensable when holding parts for planning and scrapping. The ability to disengage each screw and independently skew the vise ends comes in handy from time to time. It also works very well when holding very wide pieces for sanding or planning because of three dog rows.<O:p</O:p
This vise, when properly constructed and adjusted, is one of the many good end vise options.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Phil<O:p</O:p

[Mark Pruitt]

I vote for the single shoulder vise at the end. I have 2 benches with them and they are great. If you are going to do clamp up / glue up you dont want to tie your bench up with it. Here is a tip for the glue up

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=28572

lou

Lou,

You gave me an idea for what to do with all that stupid craft paper that was left over from my move.:) I bought WAY too much of the stuff.:o
That's an outstanding bench and I absolutely love the way you set it up adjacent to the TS for outfeed support. A pole in the center of my garage will effectively prevent my doing likewise.:mad:

Point well taken as far as tying up the bench with clamping, but there have been several occasions when I will leave the shop after a glue-up and allow the work to sit in the clamps--end of the day, leave to run errands, etc. I've often wished for just such a clamping utility as would be afforded by the vise setup in the pic I posted with my questions.

I also love the drawer set; if I needed drawers "down there" that's a perfect model. I'm leaning towards an open shelf, maybe a couple small drawers beneath, maybe not.

Question: How wide/thick are the legs and feet?

[lou sansone]

thanks for the complements. drawers hold lots of carving tools and other small stuff ... legs are 3x5 curly maple . top is beech

best wishes
lou

[Alan DuBoff]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=28572Lou,

Funny you mention that, I have a roll of butcher paper with a holder very similar to yours, which I plan to use for just that purpose. I haven't mounted the holder yet, but getting my garage cleaned up to do so.

My bench is going to have hardboard on top, the one I just renovated, but I will use it for glue-ups and will use that.

The other thing I've found that my wife uses a lot of for cooking (she teaches cooking classes) is parchment paper, I use it for smaller glue ups, like the purple heart flooring I recentely laminated to join with the piece of hickory on the front.

That jointer is a hummer!

[Steve Cox]

I use a Veritas twin screw visw with four rows of dog holes. My bench is about 24" wide. I find the four rows to be invaluable for stops, irregular pieces and (my favorite) a pair of Veritas hold downs. The spacing for the screws is about 16" and it has been in heavy use now for about 5yrs with no problems. For my money, the book "Making Workbenches" by Sam Allen is an excellent resource for a practical bench. It doesn't have the pretty pictures that the Landis book does but it is much more practical and down to earth on making a bench to USE.