Search For The Holy Grail, well at least the wood species.

[Jeremiah Jordan]

I know that I have been away, for a long time now. Just moved to a new area, working a ton. But here is a serious question for you guys, as Easter is coming tomarrow, Jesus Christ drank from a cup at the last supper. I know that he was a carpenter, just wondering for a gift for my priest for next year, what would the grail or cup, have been made of?

I have turned the Holy Land Olivewood before and I have fallen in love with it. But this wood almost seems too "extravegent" (not for the priest, but for Christ).

Would it be possible that it could be Olivewood? Or someother species? Thanks a lot you guys.

Jeremiah Jordan

[Chris Barton]

Hi Jere,

If you live close to a woodcraft store you can get olive wood (not holy) for your challice. But, be prepared, it will likely cost you about 30-40 for a piece the size you want.

Chris

[Pat Salter]

Well, that ought to keep a bunch of us in "google" for a while:eek:

[Frank Fusco]

I don't believe we know what the chalice was made from. Wood seems unlikely to me. More likely pottery. Less likely semi-precious metal. But, as a gift the Bethlehem olive wood would be beautiful. As said, a piece that large is going to be costly. BTW, if you do it, I would not finish it with anything, just fine sand and buff.

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Considering the region, if the chalis WAS made from wood, it might be Cedar!

It could be the reason that Cedar goblets look so good. Here's a sample of what I mean.

Bruce

[Curt Fuller]

Considering the region, if the chalis WAS made from wood, it might be Cedar!

It could be the reason that Cedar goblets look so good. Here's a sample of what I mean.

Bruce
I agree with Bruce that it was very likely Cedar, but true Cedar. The wood we all have here is actually one of several species of Juniper or Arborvitae. But genuine Cedar is native to the Holy Land. http://www.bonsaiweb.com/care/faq/cedrus.html

Olive is beautiful wood but like most fruit bearing trees, it's prone to cracking and the trees were also probably too valuable for their fruit, oil, etc. to be used by woodworkers back then.

[Frank Fusco]

I agree with Bruce that it was very likely Cedar, but true Cedar. The wood we all have here is actually one of several species of Juniper or Arborvitae. But genuine Cedar is native to the Holy Land. http://www.bonsaiweb.com/care/faq/cedrus.html

Olive is beautiful wood but like most fruit bearing trees, it's prone to cracking and the trees were also probably too valuable for their fruit, oil, etc. to be used by woodworkers back then.

I have never heard of a problem with olive wood cracking. In fact, if there is a problem, it is that the wood stays somewhat oily forever. That is why many turners of olive wood do not use finishes, it doesn't need it. Olive trees must be trimmed and pruned regularly, much wood comes from that. And, eventually they do die (after 400 to 700 years) and must be cut down to make way for the new ones that sprout up naturally. Wood comes from that process too. I believe it would make a wonderful cup.

[John Hart]

Ok...I did some checking, and there was a show on Discovery tonight about the Grail...So here's a hint.

There is a wooden drinking vessel..a cup or a bowl...whatever you want to call it. It's called the "Nanteos Cup". It is highly revered as being the "real" grail...but most archaeologists dismiss it as 12th or 13th century.

But here's the key....The people who say that it is the "true" grail, describe it as made from olive wood.

Some expert from England analyzed it and announced that it was made from Elm....but that's not the point....The believers say "Olive wood".

Does that help?:confused:

[Cody Colston]

The Chalice of Antioch is considered by some to be the cup from the last supper. The upper room where the last supper was held is thought to been owned by Mark's mother. Mark often traveled to Antioch.

Discovered in 1910, the Chalice is a plain silver cup that is inside a larger, gilded holder or outer cup. The outer cup is decorated with vines, two figures that apparently represent Christ and 10 others that have been identified as apostles.

It has been dated anywhere from 1st century to 6th century. I guess for those who place importance on man-made objects for worship purposes, the first century date would make it possible.

[Bill Grumbine]

I have no thoughts to offer on the grail itself, as my opinons are probably very close to Cody's. But, I do have a thought on perspective. Olive to us here in the US is rare and expensive. In Israel it grows on trees - i.e. it it relatively common. They probably burn the stuff in their woodstoves.

A number of years ago SWMBO's former boss took a vacation in Hawaii. He asked me if there was any kind of wood I wanted him to bring back. I was very excited of course, and told him "Anything exotic". I thought about that for a little bit, and then amended my statement. I told him, "Anything exotic to us that is, not to the locals in Hawaii. I don't want you bringing me back a stick of red oak for $20.00 a board foot or anything!" :eek:

Bill

[Rich Stewart]

So what did you end up with Bill? I got some of that KOA on ebay. Paid a lot for it just because I wanted some. I tried to make a box out of it and found you can't get very detailed with it. Splinters if it gets too thin. I made a bowl with fairly thick walls that looked like it should have some poi in it.

[Paul Downes]

I turned three pens yesterday out of Bethlehem olive wood for three area priest friends. Going to pass them out on Easter. It is a reminder to them that we are praying for them regularly. Their vocation is tough going much of the time and it is a good thing to encourage them whenever possible.

[Gary DeWitt]

Not sure on the grail, my best guess would be hand hammered metal of some kind, I'm not sure metal spinning was known then. I see what looks like metal in most artist's renderings of the scene, anyway.
On olive wood, I just saw a national geographic channel documentary (gospel of judas) which showed the garden of gesthemane (sp?) with some VERY old looking olive trees. Wasn't stated how old, but easily hundreds of years.
A friend of mine took down an 80 year old olive in Long Beach, Ca that looked like a sprout compared to the ones on tv!
The wood is oily, turns like a dream, and smells like olive oil when fresh cut!

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Hate to say this, but would not have most of the drinking implements have been pottery?


The Olive wood sure does sound nice!

Cheers!

[John Hart]

Hate to say this, but would not have most of the drinking implements have been pottery?....

Yeah....As I alluded to earlier...It is extremely unlikely that the cup was any kind of metal, simply because metal was reserved for the wealthy. Pottery was the material of choice, with wood being second. I think Olivewood would be a perfect choice for this project.:)

[Bill Grumbine]

Yeah....As I alluded to earlier...It is extremely unlikely that the cup was any kind of metal, simply because metal was reserved for the wealthy. Pottery was the material of choice, with wood being second. I think Olivewood would be a perfect choice for this project.:)

Hi John

Not to get too theological here, but we cannot assume that the last supper was "Spartan" because of Jesus' way of life. He had a number of rich friends and acquaintances, and while he did not make a practice of living well, as we like to call it, the Passover is a hugely important part of Jewish life, and the dishware associated with it can often be fine even in a poor house, since it is for a very special and important occasion.

Also, while his disciples pretty much took vows of poverty to follow him, some of them came from some pretty well to do families. It is during this period of Jesus life, at the house of Simon the Leper, where Mary comes and anoints Him with a very expensive ointment - worth a year's pay. So, some of these people had some real money, and they used it to express their devotion to the Lord.

Ultimately we do not know what "The Holy Grail" was made from, and we may never know until that time when all things are revealed, regardless of the fascination of some sects of Christianity with relics.

Happy Easter to all!

Bill

[Bill Grumbine]

So what did you end up with Bill? I got some of that KOA on ebay. Paid a lot for it just because I wanted some. I tried to make a box out of it and found you can't get very detailed with it. Splinters if it gets too thin. I made a bowl with fairly thick walls that looked like it should have some poi in it.

Hi Rich

I got some very pretty koa, and some spectacular curly mango. I also got some milo which was fairly mundane, and some other stuff that was like a palm grass. It was greenish in color with red and I think almost blue specks in it. It all went to pens at that time, although I still might have a small piece or two lying around somewhere.

Bill

[John Hart]

Hi John

Not to get too theological here....Bill

Yes...I agree...let's not. Otherwise the thread will get pulled.:eek:

I like Olivewood for a cup.;) :)

[Frank Fusco]

Hate to say this, but would not have most of the drinking implements have been pottery?


The Olive wood sure does sound nice!

Cheers!

I believe it would have been pottery. Jewish law had some very strict prohibitions against the use of "wooden vessels" for sanitary reasons. I see Gary DeWitt is wearing a black hat and has a beard. Gary, are you Jewish? If so, maybe you can help here. With facts, not theology, I don't want to go astray either but this is an interesting subject. So far, my vote is for pottery.
Frank

[Jeremiah Jordan]

Thank you guys very much for your help! I think that you are right Stu, about it being made out of pottery, but I am a humble woodturner, not a potter, that role is left to some one else. I am going to go into my design phase right now, boot up AutoCad, and see what shape I like, then buy a few more chucks, and I will be on the way. I will try to give you guys updates as soon as as my schedule allows.

By the way I have decided on what wood...has to be Holy Land Olivewood. Just turns oh so nice!

Thanks again guys and gals.

Jeremiah Jordan

[Frank Fusco]

Thank you guys very much for your help! I think that you are right Stu, about it being made out of pottery, but I am a humble woodturner, not a potter, that role is left to some one else. I am going to go into my design phase right now, boot up AutoCad, and see what shape I like, then buy a few more chucks, and I will be on the way. I will try to give you guys updates as soon as as my schedule allows.

By the way I have decided on what wood...has to be Holy Land Olivewood. Just turns oh so nice!

Thanks again guys and gals.

Jeremiah Jordan




Insatead of auto-cad, why not use the internet to research representative shapes for the period? Yes, BOW is the only choice for a reproduction. When done, pictures are mandantory.

[Ed Breen]

Just a passing thought. I have never turned, or for that matter, handled any olive wood. If, as most of you say it is an oily wood, and thus might not be finished it might imparet an oily tast6e to any substanbce served in such a container. Might give one the slicks!!
Just a random thought.
Ed:cool:

[Frank Chaffee]

Just a passing thought. I have never turned, or for that matter, handled any olive wood. If, as most of you say it is an oily wood, and thus might not be finished it might imparet an oily tast6e to any substanbce served in such a container. Might give one the slicks!!
Just a random thought.
Ed:cool:
Or possibly, is olive wood self cleansing?
Frank

[Frank Fusco]

Just a passing thought. I have never turned, or for that matter, handled any olive wood. If, as most of you say it is an oily wood, and thus might not be finished it might imparet an oily tast6e to any substanbce served in such a container. Might give one the slicks!!
Just a random thought.
Ed:cool:

Not likely, it just stays sorta 'new' almost forever. Beautiful to turn. If you think something like cocobolo is great to turn, you'l absolutely go bonkers over olive. And it smells nice while you are working it.