Handsaw Woes

[David Stonner]

I am looking for an explanation. I recently picked up a couple of crusty, rusty old Disston panel saws. One is a 9 tpi the other is a 5 tpi, or there abouts. Anyway, I sharpened them up and tested them out on a maple board. The top side of the board looked clean while cutting, but the bottom is all chewed up and splintered and chipped out for 1/4 to 1/2 of an inch on either side of the kerf. What gives? A short rip cut looks clean on both top and bottom of the board, though. Any ideas on what could be going wrong? Did i sharpen them wrong? I followed the Tage Frid method and made a saw vise to clamp the blade. I sharpened the blades exactly how Frid demonstrates in his joinery book. He said rip profile for all your saws works better, so that is what I did. I appreciate any feedback.

Dave

[Alan DuBoff]

I am looking for an explanation. I recently picked up a couple of crusty, rusty old Disston panel saws. One is a 9 tpi the other is a 5 tpi, or there abouts. Anyway, I sharpened them up and tested them out on a maple board. The top side of the board looked clean while cutting, but the bottom is all chewed up and splintered and chipped out for 1/4 to 1/2 of an inch on either side of the kerf. What gives? A short rip cut looks clean on both top and bottom of the board, though. Any ideas on what could be going wrong? Did i sharpen them wrong? I followed the Tage Frid method and made a saw vise to clamp the blade. I sharpened the blades exactly how Frid demonstrates in his joinery book. He said rip profile for all your saws works better, so that is what I did. I appreciate any feedback.

DaveDave,

Are your saws filed rip? They would chew up the grain if you use a rip saw across the grain. It sounds like they cut fine for rip'n, so my guess is that you've got yourself rip teeth.

Do they have any fleam?

Check this site out for more details:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html

HTH...

[Roger Nixon]

Tage lied :)
A saw filed to a rip profile will cause bad splintering when crosscutting.
There are some good instructions on Pete Taran's website (http://www.vintagesaws.com) on shapening saws for rip and crosscut.

[Alan DuBoff]

Tage lied :)
A saw filed to a rip profile will cause bad splintering when crosscutting.
There are some good instructions on Pete Taran's website (http://www.vintagesaws.com) on shapening saws for rip and crosscut.Roger,

This brings up a good point. I know that many folks advocate (as Tage did;-) that he files all of his saws for rip, but I believe he is referring to backsaws when he says that.

I don't buy into this theory, and while it is true that a fine toothed rip saw will cut across the grain, I personally feel you need 2 saws, one rip, and one crosscut, for each size saw you use.

Saws are no different than any other tool, and like most hand tools require a quiver to have saws for each situation that may arise.

I am assembling my set of user saws, and I'm planning to have 2 of each type saw, so even for a small gent's saw (I have Disston 68s), I will have 2 with one filed rip and one filed crosscut.

I got a pair of small joinery saws from Mike Wenzloff, which are 8" pistol grip saws, and I had him make me one rip and one crosscut.

This holds true for all saws, and a full set would include incremental sizes (8", 10", 12", 14", and even 16") with 2 saws per size, one filed rip and one filed crosscut.

This would only cover you on backsaws.:) Larger panel and hand saws start another collection in themselves.:D But you could add to this also, for instance I want to have some finer toothed gent saws like small jewelry saws, and you need a flush cutting gent's saw, and some other specialties.

The bottom line is I believe you should use the right tool for the job, and a rip toothed saw is not the right tool to cut across the grain, contrary to what others may say (even Tage Frid:p). It can work in some situations and when the teeth are fine it matters less, but it is not the right tool for the job, period. The whole point of the fleam and the way the teeth are filed crosscut is to cut the grain fibers rather than acting a chisel which rip teeth do. Those teeth will tear the grain apart, and even if it's fine it will tear them to some extent.

Now, wether everyone needs both rip and crosscut for each size saw they own, well, that's up to each of us to decide.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

David, it sounds like you may have multiple problems. The 5 TPI is definitely a rip saw and should be filed rip. It shouldn't cause any splintering when used with the grain unless the set is too rank. Your 9 TPI should definitely make a find cut across the grain in softwood assuming it is filed with at least 25 degrees fleam. If it is filed that way and still tears the backside of the cut, then it may also have too much set.

[Mike Wenzloff]

David,

Dennis' message identifying the saws as rip/crosscut is 99% of the time how saws with those number of teeth per inch would be filed.

Here's a closeup of an Oak 2x3 and a Cherry 1x8, sawn with a 9 ppi cross cut. This should be pretty much how that 9 ppi will leave a board.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/saws/pe/pe_0008.jpg

Take care, Mike
who often uses a Bishop 4 1/2 ppi cross cut...

[David Stonner]

Thanks for all the help, guys. I knew you all would have an answer. I think I'll just leave the coarser blade as a rip and file the 9 tpi blade with a 25-degree fleam like Dennis said. And Mike, thanks for posting the photo of the crosscut. Mine definitely do not look like that! I'll give the finer one another go at sharpening. Thanks again to all for the quick responses.

Dave

[Mike Wenzloff]

Dave another thing.

I assume you are at least lightly jointing the teeth prior to sharpening? If not, it will help.

My schedule for sharpening is to joint, sharpen/point, lightly joint again, set and sharpen one last time.

Also, when you set the saw, if you are cutting dry woods vs. pond-dry construction wood, set less than you think you ought. It's easier to add a little set than remove it.

Take care, Mike

[Roger Nixon]

Take care, Mike
who often uses a Bishop 4 1/2 ppi cross cut...
Whoa! :eek: :D
Are you building ships, Mike? :cool:

[Mike Wenzloff]

Whoa! :eek: :D
Are you building ships, Mike? :cool:
Hi Roger,

Nah, but I do use the real coarse ones to cut exotics and sheet goods to rough dimensions.

It's one of those use the coarsest that will do the job type of things. Same with using handplanes. We all talk about obtaining the finest of shavings when we tune a plane. Smoothing is maybe, to be generous, 1% of the work involved with a piece of furniture.

Getting to that point whether using handtools, power tools or a combination is the real work. So I apply this to most edge tools, but saws and planes the most.

Take care, Mike
too early for a soapbox...;)

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Mike, I know what you mean about a coarse cutting saw. I have a 4 1/2 point nr 12, 30" long, that I use for roughing out stock. It makes very quick work of ripping a long board!

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Dennis,

My coarsest rip is a 3 1/2 ppi Sorby Kangaroo logo. But the one I use the most is also a 4 1/2. As the stock gets thinner or harder, I rip with a saw having more teeth per inch.

Ripping is a lot of work. But it's cheaper than a gym membership.

Take care, Mike

[Dennis McDonaugh]

3 1/2 ppi???? :eek: That's almost like hacking at it with a hatchet. I made 320 feet of 1X6 baseboard for my house from poplar and ripped every inch of it to width with a hand saw. It took about 5 minutes to rip a 16' board. I wouldn't want to do that all day long, but it wasn't that bad a few at a time.

[Leif Hanson]

Speaking of kangaroos and rip saws...

I've noticed that Australia seems to have more than it's share of 3-1/2 and 4 point rip saws... I wonder if it is because of the different woods, different methods of work, or something else?

Leif

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hey Leif! We should both be working <g>...Well, I am shellacing inside. Gotta wait for the next coat...

I don't know. I've noticed that about Australian auctions for saws. My experience has been in many woods that I need to go to more ppi for most really hard woods. Then again, Purpleheart cuts really well with a coarse saw.

Must be they have more endurance than I do. That or the sun has gotten to our friends down under...sorry Derek. I couldn't resist.

On a related note, I had a friend in west Africa and they had really coarse saws they used for building.

I know certain hardwoods like Makore, Teak, and Jatoba I have used respond well to few ppi. The more brittle woods like Bloodwood, Padauk and the like will splinter easier.

Hi Dennis,

Yeah, it's a bit like hacking. Below is part of a stud from our 100 year old house. Bone dry and hard. 4" of cut, 8 strokes.

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/sorby_0001.jpg

Can just about see each and every tooth as it cut...Mike

[Alice Frampton]

Speaking of kangaroos and rip saws...

I've noticed that Australia seems to have more than it's share of 3-1/2 and 4 point rip saws... I wonder if it is because of the different woods, different methods of work, or something else?
Perhaps the rip saws got used least while all the x-cuts got worn to the nib on those tough Aussie timbers. After all it probably came as a surprise to new settlers just how hard those woods can be, so they equipped themselves with saws they wound up never being able to use. Just a thought.

Cheers, Alf

[Mike Wenzloff]

Ah, quite possibly Alf!

I see more 3-4 ppi rips from the US and England where they are quite wore down.

Thanks, Mike