Mortiser decision??

[Dan Lyman]

I am planning to pick up a benchtop mortisersoon and am looking for feed back on the the following possibilities.

I was planning on getting the GI 75-050 - street price $319

Then I decided to up the ante a bit, just in case I need to do angles at some point and figured I get the GI 75-050TM1 which basically adds a tilting head and has a street price of $399.

Now I noticed the new powermatic 701 which does not have a tilting head, but has a bigger table, better work piece advance/clamping setup, more powerful motor (3/4hp), built in cone sharpener and many other nifty features that would seem to make it easier to use. It does not come with chisels however... Street price $409 + cost of chisels.

Any feedback on these models appreciated. Is tilting head really that usefull? Is a bigger motor going to make a difference in this type of machine? I see the price slowly creeping up and next I may be looking at a floor model :)



Thanks for the help

Dan

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Get the General not only is the tilt option and table swivel worth it the thins is heavier and, inter alia, has better knobs.
Let PM learn the hard way send 'em a pix of your new general.

[JayStPeter]

A mortiser is on my short list. I looked at those particular models at the WW show a couple weeks ago. The fence on the PM sure is nice, and overall it seems pretty solid. The GIs both felt pretty solid. The fence and holddown looked good, but not quite as good as the PM. I didn't get a chance to play with the tilt mechnism on the tilting one to see how that was. It wasn't well displayed. The show price on the PM was pretty decent (less than $350 if I recall correctly). Unfortunately, I haven't seen it for that price anywhere else. Right now, I'm leaning toward the PM.

Jay

[Ed Bamba]

Anyone have experience with how well the high end mortisers cut? Do they cut nicer and/or better than the lower end machines? Not trying to start an arguement, just curious is all. I realize that proper set up would yield better results, but all things being equal, do they actually cut better?

Thanks and take care,
Ed

[Mike Cutler]

Anyone have experience with how well the high end mortisers cut? Do they cut nicer and/or better than the lower end machines? Not trying to start an arguement, just curious is all. I realize that proper set up would yield better results, but all things being equal, do they actually cut better?

Thanks and take care,
Ed

Ed. I don't know that it is actually a case of cutting better, per se. I think it's more a case of maintaing closer tolerance over the life of the machine.

A bench top mortiser makes a series of nice square hole. The bigger, more expensive floor machine makes a nice series of square hole. Which one will be making a better nice series of square holes, 10,000 mortise joints later. I'll put my money on the bigger,more expensive, and heavier floor model.
The benchtops are fine for most of us hobbiest types. we can take the time to set it up, and fuss with it a bit. We probably won't make 10,000 mortise joints, and have to worry about wearing the machine out.

Personally. Even though I have a Delta 14-651 benchtop mortiser. I would buy the Powermatic tilting head floor standing model if I were to do it again.
Depending upon the density of the wood, and the size of the mortise chisel. A pretty fair amount of force may be required to use a mortiser. The bigger the better(easier)

My .02 fwiw.

[Jim Becker]

I saw the tilting GI a few years ago at IWF when they first introduced it and it was a very nice machine.

[Allen Bookout]

Dan, If you can get hold of the August 2005 issue of Fine Woodworking magazine it has their test results of 8 beenchtop mortisers and has quite a bit of useful information on the subject. Allen

[Dan Owen]

Dan,

I just purchased the PM 701 and it is a real solid unit. Set up and adjustments were a snap. I'll rewire for 220. I have made some cuts and the accuracy and ease of cut were excellent. I couldn't see much use for a tilting head in relationship to the kind of work I like to do and seems like another factor that could affect the overall tolerences of the machine. Buy the chisels as you need them. I believe Fisch is now making Deltas chisels and bits. I'm currently using the Jet chisel/bits and they work fine.

Dan

[Ed Bamba]

Ed. I don't know that it is actually a case of cutting better, per se. I think it's more a case of maintaing closer tolerance over the life of the machine.

A bench top mortiser makes a series of nice square hole. The bigger, more expensive floor machine makes a nice series of square hole. Which one will be making a better nice series of square holes, 10,000 mortise joints later. I'll put my money on the bigger,more expensive, and heavier floor model.
The benchtops are fine for most of us hobbiest types. we can take the time to set it up, and fuss with it a bit. We probably won't make 10,000 mortise joints, and have to worry about wearing the machine out.

Personally. Even though I have a Delta 14-651 benchtop mortiser. I would buy the Powermatic tilting head floor standing model if I were to do it again.
Depending upon the density of the wood, and the size of the mortise chisel. A pretty fair amount of force may be required to use a mortiser. The bigger the better(easier)

My .02 fwiw.

Mike, thanks for putting me back on the right track. Those higher end machines are very well built and should last a life time. To set the record straight, I have one of those cheap HF moritising machines. Picked one up when they were on sale a few weeks ago, and used one of their 20% off coupons. But needles to say, I'm not completely happy with it, even after adding a cross sliding vise. I still need to beef up the wooden base I attached it to. I've been cutting some practice mortises with it in preperation for the real thing. I'm still a bit apprehensive about using it on the project though. Not sure if it is my set up or the machine that is keeping me from being completely satisfied. It does seem to cut better after honing the chisels and dressing the cutting portion of the bits. Maybe with more practice, more precises set up, and sharper tooling, I could come close to achieving better quality mortises; but probably never as cleanly as a router would though.

Thanks for listening, and as always, suggestions and advise always welcomed.

BTW, anyone have pics of their best cut mortises using a mortising machine? Would like to use it for comparison just in case I'm being way too anal about the way mine have turned out.

Take care,
Ed

[Burt Waddell]

Dan,

Here is a link to a mortice and tendon setup that a lot of us find works well. Yes, it EZ Smart. After the round earlier in the week I say that softly but it offers so much I felt I had to pass the link on to you.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/EZ-Mortise-tenons-with-limit-stops

http://eurekazone.com/albums/EZ-Mortise-tenons-with-limit-stops/SRK_CNC_035.sized.jpg




Burt

[Dan Lyman]

Hi guys,
Thanks for the feedback. While I'd like the big floor standing mortise machine, I really don't think I can justify the $$ involved. It seems like the benchtops can offer a good compromise.

Jim, I have looked at and fondled the GI machine and it is very nice. I was pretty much set on it til I saw the PM701 and just want to compare them before deciding. I have not been able to see one in person yet.

Cliff,
Sounds like you were not impressed by the PM unit. Please elaborate if you can.

Jay,
Sounds like you hada more positive take on the PM. Did it seem like the wheels to hold../advance the stock would work as advertised? That seems like a real slick idea.

Thanks Allen, I'm looking foir the issue, but I just moved and things are still boxed up.

Dan,
Any regrets on not getting the tilting head? I know there are ways to work around it, but if the functionality is built in, it can't get much easier.

Hey Burt,
I looked at the pics, but I'm not sure I quite get it. Using the EZ setup for mortise and tenon looks doable, but is it easier than using a mortiser and some fort of tenon cutting?

I'll ponder this a while longer.. At least it's narrowed down to 2 machines.

Thanks

Dan

[JayStPeter]

Jay,
Sounds like you hada more positive take on the PM. Did it seem like the wheels to hold../advance the stock would work as advertised? That seems like a real slick idea.


Obviously I didn't have a chance to try it out, but everything on that machine looked real solid. The GI is no slouch either. I'm also still considering the Shop Fox even though I haven't had a chance to lay hands on it. But, right now the PM is the way I'm leaning. When it comes time to pull the trigger, the checkbook might say different :)

Jay

[Gary Hoemann]

I've had the Shop Fox for a while and made a couple of arts and crafts pieces using it. I added a cross sliding vise. Works real well and it is all I'll ever need.

[Burt Waddell]

Dan,

The EZ Smart setup for mortice and tendon joints is extremely versitle. For a larger joint I think it is faster. For a smaller one it depends. If you are doing several, the EZ would be quicker. For smaller quantities the dedicated mortiser is probably faster.

If you have a chance take another look at the EZ photos and notice the stop set up. These control motion in all four directions and are the key to fast easy mortice and tendon joints.

Burt

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

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Cliff,
Sounds like you were not impressed by the PM unit. Please elaborate if you can.
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Well it appears that PM is slowly but surely dropping the ball on their mortiser. I say this because they have grown progressively less robust over the years cutting little things here and there so that a company like General can run right up to them and pace 'em without breaking a sweat. It appears that marketing is taking over at PM 'cause old time engineers wouldn't put skimpy interfaces such as the stamped sheet metal flip type lock knob on the table.
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I fear that PM instead of getting better is going to go into a period of decline keeping pace with Delta in their nose dive to the bottom of the consumer dollar.
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Of course I could be wrong.
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Here are some differences The ** is where I think the PM did it right. Mind you I do not own either of these machines. I incvestigated a mortiser over a long period and have elected to build my own. I am using a machine tool X*Y table and a router. It's a lot cheaper and infinately more adjustable. Less robust? Maybe but I do "one offs" and never production work.
General's mortiser has so many little and not so little aspects that are flat out better than the PM unit.

The down feed arm has 3 positions ( PM only 1 position)

It tilts at the head 30 Deg (PM no) Chairs leap to mind & the PM is out of the game.

It tilts at the fence30 Deg ( PM no)

The workpiece clamp applies force downward and against the fence in both directions preventing the work from lifting. (PM straight in doing nothing to prevent lifting the work but it is a quick release ? as if that matters on a mortiser)

The Left/Right table stops on the General is a ratcheting ergonomically comfy lever (PM a cheesy piece of stamped sheet metal)

Rotations of the crank to run the table in or out the General is 38 turns ( PM 34)

General 1 rotation for Left/Right (PM = 8)
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General Left/Right crank wheel is about TWICE the size of the PM wheel

General has a crank wheel for the work clamp (PM a cheesy piece of stamped sheet metal)
General has a depth and a return stop on the cutter feed (PM only a depth stop)
**General uses stamped sheet metal on the depth stops (PM has Castings)
**General has relatively small knobs on the depth stop ( PM has a large Lever)
The in/out table Ways on the General has a nice comfy ratcheting lock knob ( PM a cheesy piece of sheet metal)
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[Dan Lyman]

Thanks CLiff, On paper the PM701 sounds pretty good, but based on your observations, I'm a lto more curious. I'll try to find one locally to look at and check out the details.

Thanks

[Charlie Mastro]

Excellent review Cliff.... I aways wanted the General and I think it's a no-brainer now.:)

[Chris Barton]

I have both a Delta HC mortiser and a 3D slot mortiser (knid of like the multi router) on my Robland X31. After haveing used both I rarely use my Delta any longer. The slot mortiser is far more accurate and easy to use and oh, the power...

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

oh, the power...

Come to me Luke. You don't know the power of the dark side.

The robland would have a beefier motor as it's the planer/jointer motor. Does it go fast enough for you?

[Greg Sznajdruk]

Dan take at look at this site.

http://http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/Mortiser.html

Greg

[Dan Lyman]

Thanks for the link Greg, a very interesting read. I'm off to the tool zone in the morning to see if they the PM unit. I know they have the generals.

Dan

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Dan take at look at this site.

http://http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/Mortiser.html (http://http://home.comcast.net/%7Echarliebcz/Mortiser.html)

Greg

That guy's site helped me a lot. I'd lost the link but saved all the data from my research. Thanks.

[Allen Bookout]

Greg's link above takes me to Microsoft which I really like to stay away from. Is anyone else having this problem?

Allen

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Here is the main page:
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/AlternateMainMenu.html (http://home.comcast.net/%7Echarliebcz/AlternateMainMenu.html)
---http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/AlternateMainMenu.html---

<http:></http:>

[Allen Bookout]

That link worked for me Cliff. Thanks! Allen