Face frame joints with pocket hole screws: glue too?

[Rob Blaustein]

Joinery question: glue in addition to pocket hole screws for the faceframe joints? Jim Tolpin says yes, Udo Schmidt says no. What do you do?

[Jerry Ingraham]

I add glue, what the heck it can't hurt!

[Jim Becker]

Yup...unless they are temporary.

[Jesse Cloud]

I don't use glue with pocket screws. Seems to me like that would just wipe out most of the efficiency you gain from screws.

[Frank Pellow]

I say YES.

[Steve Cox]

For face frames, no. First, the joint is end grain to edge grain butt joint, basically the worst possible joint for gluing with the exception of end to end. There really is no inherent strength to the glued joint. Second, because the frame will be attached to the carcase there is no need for any extra strength in the joint itself, the carcase gives strength to each piece of wood individually. Third, as mentioned above, it slows you down as you apply and then clean up the glue. The whole point of pocket screws is speed. So, I say no.

[Kent Fitzgerald]

If it's just a matter of a few extra seconds to dab on some glue, go ahead. If it's a particularly complicated assembly where open time becomes an issue, or if squeezeout / cleanup would be a problem, you don't need it.

[Steve Clardy]

YES. It fills those little voids in the joint.

[Steve Ash]

FWIW, I do.

[Jerry Olexa]

Yes its insurance. Glue is usually strongest where a screw can sometimes later get loose. IMHO

[Alden Miller]

I don't bother. It's an end grain to long grain joint which is poor for glue strength anyway. The screws make for a quick joint. The strength will come from gluing the face frame to the carcass.

-Alden

[Steve Clardy]

Ok. For those of you who don't glue the joint.
Try a sample joint, with glue.
Glue, screw, let it dry. Then remove screw, and try to break the joint.
It wll surprise you how tough the joint is. It will break, but it will take some long grain wood with it.

[Rob Blaustein]

Interesting--I should have done an actual poll. So far it's 6-3 for glue, not counting Kent who could go either way. Schmidt's argument is that the pocket holes are stong enough and you don't have to deal with glue squeeze out.

Not exactly my original question, and I know this has been discussed a bit recently, but do you glue your faceframes to the carcasses or just use screws and/or nails?

If application matters here for these questions--this is for a bathroom vanity which will not see the sort of abuse that say a kitchen cabinet gets. And the carcasses are already quite solid with 3/4" ply AND 1/2" backs (uh oh, here comes Clardy with, "why didn't ya use 1/4" for the back...:rolleyes::D).

[Kyle Kraft]

I use glue with the pocket hole screws and I also glue the face frame to the carcass and "...just a few brads to hold it while the glue sets..." (thanks Norm!)

Glue, screw, and tattoo!

[Steve Clardy]

Glue, clamp up faceframe, attach with brads from the ply to face. [From the inside] No nail holes showing. Unclamp.
As far as the 1/2 back, use whatever you wish.
Let me tell you a secret with 1/2 backs.
If you are building oak cabinets, 1/4" backs cost from 15 to 25 dollars, depending on the faces.
1/2" oak ply is $50.00 a sheet, good one side.
$5.00 higher than 3/4 ply.
So why would I use 1/2 backs, and go broke in the process of bidding jobs.

[Keel McDonald]

Steve

I agree with what you are saying, but if you do the same test without glue and try to pull apart the joint with just pocket screws, it is also surprisingly strong.


Ok. For those of you who don't glue the joint.
Try a sample joint, with glue.
Glue, screw, let it dry. Then remove screw, and try to break the joint.
It wll surprise you how tough the joint is. It will break, but it will take some long grain wood with it.

[Joe Chritz]

A test in WOOD not long ago did a scientific study on the strength of glues. The shear strength of end grain to long grain was stronger then anticipated. Several glues obtained wood failure while most were over 1500 lbs to break.

It is most likely not needed but for the 3 seconds per joint it takes to lather a tad of glue in there it is cheap insurance.

I have never had a face frame I could finish without sanding the joints anyway so cleanup seems to be a moot point for me.

94 words to say yes!

Joe

[Steve Clardy]

Steve

I agree with what you are saying, but if you do the same test without glue and try to pull apart the joint with just pocket screws, it is also surprisingly strong.

Sure I understand that.
Am I am not trying to argue the point.
My concerns
#1 glue fills the gap if you have one.
#2. Say your stiles are 2", and you are attaching a 1 1/2 top rail, using one pocket screw, this face frame will twist around till its completed.
One screw with glue hold the rail in place. One screw without glue, lets the rail move.
Now once the frame is on the carcass, doesn't make a bit of difference, except when you get one of those gaps in the face, which will happen, there you are filling the gap, joint.
Go ahead and glue, ands its over with.

[Larry Fox]

Steve

I agree with what you are saying, but if you do the same test without glue and try to pull apart the joint with just pocket screws, it is also surprisingly strong.

I think what Steve is trying to say here is that the glue joint end grain to long grain is stronger than you might initially suspect. For face frames that I recently built, I used glue and I was forced to do exactly what Steve suggests on one frame (3-joints) and was really surprised how strong the joints were. I thought that the joint would snap fairly easily after removing the screws - not so, it took considerable force. For the very small amount of extra time the glue took me vs the additional strength it gave the tradeoff is more than worth it for me. However, I am not making a living at it so I can afford the extra time.

[larry merlau]

another vote for glue with screws and i did the test that steve mentoined by accident..and will glue um from then on.

[Robert E Lee]

I vote for glue.
Bob

[tod evans]

rob, i glue both frame members to eachother and frames to carcase..02 tod

[frank shic]

rob, to answer your original question:

Joinery question: glue in addition to pocket hole screws for the faceframe joints? Jim Tolpin says yes, Udo Schmidt says no. What do you do?

the answer is: whatever YOU want!

i never add glue because it's an extra step and it potentially creates yet another step - namely wiping off the squeeze-out and possibly anything else that your sticky hands have touched. another reason is that if you need to alter the face frame in any way, the glue is probably going to get in the way.

as far as attaching the face frame to the carcase, you can either glue without screws although you'll have to clamp it up longer and you may have issues with alignment, glue with dadoed face frames, glue with biscuits or pocket screw. if you can hide the pocket screws say from the outside of the case where it'll be hidden by the wall or from inside a drawer bank, the screws work quite nicely and are probably the fastest in the sense that you won't need to clamp for an extended period of time. reversibility is nice for someone like me who's just a beginner.
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[Phil Maddox]

I use glue with screws, although I use less to avoid squeeze-out issues. Usually just a line of glue on one of the pieces.

BTW - although I would not depend on it for a joint by itself, if you glue the pocket screw joint and then remove the screws after the glue sets, the joint is surprisingly strong. Some of them even had wood failure along with glue failure.

Good luck!

Phil

[Dev Emch]

Whats the point? You have a short grain to long grain connection.

[Steve Clardy]

Whats the point? You have a short grain to long grain connection.



Yer no help Dev:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

[Dev Emch]

Yer no help Dev:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

I am the wrong dude to ask here. Given a big enough hammer, I can fix anything. What a pain sitting around and adjusting and trimming all those tiny items and boring all those holes and picking a single screw out of the bucket and sticking each screw into its hole one at a time.....

TEDIOUS and BORING and TIME CONSUMING

I rough cut everything with no attention to detail accuracy. Then the rail elements are fed through the tenoner as quick as I can move the table. Then I flip down one of the stops and feed the other end through. The cutoff saw ensures the right tenon length.

Then I feed the stiles through the maka. Blows a square hole into the stile with a sound effect reminisant of eating a 1 gallon jug of baked beans! Its fast! Flip and repeat.

Glue up and clamp. The joints are often tight enough that the frame is almost self aligning.

[Per Swenson]

Me, Glue, always.

Insurance.

Any time I have to go back cost's big time.

Per

[Von Bickley]

I use glue...;)

[Peter Lyon]

How's this for not helpful:p I've done both -- technically speaking I don't really see the point of glueing from an added strengh perspective, however, when the time and situation allows I sometimes add a small drop.

Granted what Steve says about it serving as a gap filler is probably true, however, how often is this really necessary if you did a good job prepping your stock?

For as many times that it has helped, I've probably had an equal number of circumstances where a smidgeon (sp?) squeezes out on an inside corner (and always in a skinny drawer) and I don't see it until after the finish is applied.:mad:

[Steve Clardy]

How's this for not helpful:p I've done both -- technically speaking I don't really see the point of glueing from an added strengh perspective, however, when the time and situation allows I sometimes add a small drop.

Granted what Steve says about it serving as a gap filler is probably true, however, how often is this really necessary if you did a good job prepping your stock?

For as many times that it has helped, I've probably had an equal number of circumstances where a smidgeon (sp?) squeezes out on an inside corner (and always in a skinny drawer) and I don't see it until after the finish is applied.:mad:

Its still insurance as Per states.
I could, can cut 100-200 face pieces a day, and somewhere in that amount, you will have a gap in one of the joints.

[Joe Chritz]

I like Dev's method.

Where's my checkbook.:D

Joe

[David Rose]

Hey! If 'ole' Steve, who does this for a living, and will do *anything* to save 5 bucks on a job, says he will spend the bit of extra time... :D :eek: I'm surely not gonna say differently. Time is money too, ya know. And I totally agree with him about the end grain joint strength. Try it. It's amazing in comparison to what we are taught to believe. Maybe it is just the water based glues, but there is a considerable amount of strength there. If not for the movement of wood, it wouldn't surprise me if end grain glue ups alone would hold in some cases. Not that I will trust my furniture to it, but... :rolleyes:

Before I knew better, I glued up a small caddy to hold deck screws when I was building my deck. It has mitered corners that are 'not quite' matching glued up. No screws, no nothing but glue with totally wrong joints. The handle puts stress on two of those sides and the 25 pounds of screws on all sides! It made it threw the stress of a fair sized deck and being pulled in and out of a cabinet for a few years. I even gave it a whack two with the rubber mallet last year, when I decided it was too small and needed replacing. It's still solid as can be.

I haven't used pocket screws, so I can't comment on them. But I glue everything that isn't planned to move. (So my vote probably doesn't count. But thanks for reading. ;) )

David

[Norman Hitt]

I glue & Screw, (both the FF itself, and FF to case),for all the same reasons Steve and Tod said.

[Byron Trantham]

For face frames, no. First, the joint is end grain to edge grain butt joint, basically the worst possible joint for gluing with the exception of end to end. There really is no inherent strength to the glued joint. Second, because the frame will be attached to the carcase there is no need for any extra strength in the joint itself, the carcase gives strength to each piece of wood individually. Third, as mentioned above, it slows you down as you apply and then clean up the glue. The whole point of pocket screws is speed. So, I say no.

Here, here! I've used glue a couple times but the squeeze out is so significant once the screw slams home that I doubt there is much glue left anyway.

[Jerry Strojny]

FWIW I add the glue. I feel glue is always supposed to be part of the pocket screw joint.

[Chip Olson]

I always use glue for pocket screw joints. Of course, given my rate of mistakes that require redoing the joint, maybe I shouldn't. :-/

[Scott Loven]

I do not use glue, but have seen some face frame joints that were sanded smooth that now have a slight raised edge. They were two inch boards with 2 screws. I was wondering if the glue would help keep them aligned.
Scott

[Brent Harral]

Nope! I agree with the logic that the faceframes are also glued to the case so there is little real strength gained from a dap o glue. Actually, I had to pry off a faceframe yesterday after only 30 minutes clamp time. I pryed at the top of the stile. The FF came off with chuncks of it left on the ply case edge AND the pocket screw joint of the rail to stile stayed together. If the un-glued joint didn't fail in THAT little stress test, not a sure a dap a glue would make any difference.

However, if it feels good, just do it :D

[Fred Voorhees]

Count me in on the side that uses glue with the screws. Minimum time needed and, as said, cheap insurance. And I clean up the glue after it has set enough to not make a mess and I always sand up the joints anyway, so clean-up is not an issue with me.