Pm 2000

[Edward Carrion]

Anyone out there bought this saw yet? As I am thinking of buying it.

[Larry Cooke]

Hello Edward and Welcome to the Creek!

Try this link for a few answers to your question:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=33966&highlight=pm2000

I just did a search here using PM2000, I don't own one but I thought I'd offer up some advice.

Larry

[Ted Jay]

Anyone out there bought this saw yet? As I am thinking of buying it.

Just buy it, what's there to think about.... she gave the okay didn't she?
So what's the problem....?

(PS: I was wondering if you were going to join here.)

[John Miliunas]

Ed, first off, welcome to the Creek!!! :) Hope to see you around more often! :D

I don't own one but, I had the pleasure of assisting in the initial assembly of the floor model where I work yesterday evening. In short, I'm pretty impressed! A very stout machine, with a number of innovations over the venerable PM66. IMHO, the most outstanding is the easy-to-remove/replace riving knife. Well done and thought out. I've not had the chance to try out the arbor lock for the blade but, will do so on my next work night there (Friday). And, as for blade removal, PM includes a real, honest-to-goodness box/open end wrench!!! NOT, the thin-body excuse for a wrench most OEM's provide. :)

The built-in casters really do work slick, albeit I still have some reservations about that particular feature. To explain, we're on a tile floor so, rolling the machine around is a piece of cake. However, I have no way of knowing how well they work on rougher or on surfaces less even than what we have in the store. Secondly, I'd venture to say that the majority of folks purchasing such a machine will also opt for the long fence. That typically involves legs and, in a machine which is "mobile", the ability to move the table/legs is incorporated with the main part of the mobile base. I see no way of doing that with this particular setup. (NOTE: PM may indeed have a solution for this but, I'm not aware of it at this time.)

General fit and finish was really quite good, though I did note some very minor "scabs" on a couple of the edges of the table extensions. I did not have a chance yet to lay a long straightedge on the top yet, though I intend to.

I'll try to provide more info as I find it. :) :cool:

[Frank Pellow]

First of all, welcome to Saw Mill Creek Edward. I have belonged for a little over two yearts and have learned a great deal. Our artchives are a good source of information and the search facility is OK (not, great but OK).

Secondly thanks for the mini-review of the saw John. If I were still in the market fot a table saw I would give the PM 2000 serious consideration, in particular because it supports a riving knife.

[Randy Denby]

John, at the Dallas Woodworking show, they had a PM2000. When demonstrating the castors to me, it was no problem concerning the long extension table with legs. I guess the saw is heavy enough that it will raise the legs as well and not be tippy.

[John Miliunas]

John, at the Dallas Woodworking show, they had a PM2000. When demonstrating the castors to me, it was no problem concerning the long extension table with legs. I guess the saw is heavy enough that it will raise the legs as well and not be tippy.

Wow!!! That's cool. Good info, Randy! :) I guess I'll still keep my reservations on that, but now, may qualify that by saying that folks who might opt for the extension table with a router insert, would want to check on total stability. :) It is indeed a BIG hunk 'o iron, so I can see where it may overcome the leverage advantage of the extension. Still, I'm not sure I'd like to do it too often, as I would assume extra stress to the rails, table, etc... :) :cool:

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Go here to see some videos of the castors in motion:

http://www.powermatic.com/magazine_ads/PM2000/pm2000.html?CFID=4300652&CFTOKEN=10347193

I'm waiting for mine from Amazon. Patiently.

[Edward Carrion]

Yes, Ted the wife said Ok, but I am still looking at other options. So far its the General 650, Delta, and the PM2000. Because it will be a large investment I just want to make sure, its the buyers remorse thing. I have read a lot about all of these and each one has thier own good, bad and ugly issues. Did read an amusing thread from some user saying that the Delta is a better saw because parts are easier to get. Gee, after spending this kind of money on a saw and your worried about parts already. Do like the reviews about the PM2000 but not sure of the fit of its parts and wondering if it has the same issues as the 66. Right now I am leaning toward the General 650 but that may change. I know I want 5hp since the majority of the cutting is white oak and maple. The euro saws are nice but entry models do not have very much surface area right of the blade unless of course your willing to pay for it. Cross-cutting is another issue but after looking at the EX Smart Guide that will work for me. Besides this is just a hobby and I am not going to go full-time on this just yet. So, that's where I am, what I will end with I do not know at this time but either it will be the General or PM2000.

[Joe Jensen]

Once I saw one in person with the top off, and after I saw the videos here, I was sold. I sold my 16 year old Powermatic 66 and ordered a SawStop. It will cost me $1800 to upgrade, but it's with it.
http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/sawstop_highspeed.xml&catref=wd5

[Jeremy Chisholm]

Welcome to the Creek!

The PM2000 looks like a great saw- I've got one on order! As others have noted, the demos I've seen of all the new features, particularly the riving knife and slick operation of casters (they do lift the table legs too, very cool!) look like it's going to be a great piece of machinery...the only drawback for now is, you can't get one NOW. Which is why I'm chiming in- I hope you're willing to wait.

I ordered mine back at the end of February through Amazon, as none of my local big tool retailers (even the professional shop suppliers) seems to have the buying power to get one in yet; I figured Amazon was big enough with enough buying clout (the rep I spoke with says they've got multiple truckloads of 'em on order) they'd likely get their shipment on time, despite the requisite backorder list. I was wrong. As of Monday (supposed ship date by Amaon), Amazon says their first shipment from the factory, due March 30 (with a second shipment scheduled for April 15), still hasn't arrived.

So...go for it, but search your local guys high and low to see if somebody can get you one, or you're going to be in for a heck of a wait- likely at least 3 months. I ordered shortly after it went on sale and was given a 6-week backorder, can't even imagine what the given (let alone actual) wait time is now!

[Michael Ballent]

One thing that I noticed is that the riving knife not like what I have on my saw stop. Unless there is another part they are not showing but you are basically removing the guard but you are still left with that metal that is above the top of the blade... If you notice SawStop below... It has a riving knife (below), and the guard, (not shown)

http://images.meredith.com/wood/images/a_movie4.jpg

[Jeremy Chisholm]

It does have a quck-release guard/pawls as well, which snaps on to the riving knife assembly, though I imagine most of us will probably stick with just the riving knife most of the time for reasons were all familiar with...

[Edward Carrion]

Hello everyone,

Went to Eagle Tools yesterday and saw the PM2000 and the General 650. The PM2000 is a beautiful machine the quality overall is superior. Eagle Tools showed me the Trunions on the General and the PM2000. I have two say that on the General the trunions made the PM2000 look like a kids toy. The PM2000 tables are far better than the General where the General shows swirls. But you can barely feel them. The PM2000 tables are polished smooth. They did confirm that so far the bushing that connects two rods which allow the casters to rise and fall are cracking and breaking. Powermatic is aware of this issue and a new bushing replacement will/is available. The extension tables on the General are a piece of junk, they are not even banded on the edges and a low grade particle board is used. I was not able to confirm the same on the the PM2000 as it is fully laminated on all sides. The motor on the PM2000 is from china versus the General which has a Baldor motor and the torque ratings on the Baldor are much higher then the PM 2000. I did notice that on the General the mating surfaces of the cast iron extension wings to the table saw were nearly invisible as compared to the PM 2000. On the General the table edges are rounded versus the PM 2000 if that makes a difference I don't know other then cosmetics. So, thats what I have so far ansd still researching.

[Ted Jay]

Hello everyone,

Went to Eagle Tools yesterday and saw the PM2000 and the General 650. The PM2000 is a beautiful machine the quality overall is superior. Eagle Tools showed me the Trunions on the General and the PM2000. I have two say that on the General the trunions made the PM2000 look like a kids toy. The PM2000 tables are far better than the General where the General shows swirls. But you can barely feel them. The PM2000 tables are polished smooth. They did confirm that so far the bushing that connects two rods which allow the casters to rise and fall are cracking and breaking. Powermatic is aware of this issue and a new bushing replacement will/is available. The extension tables on the General are a piece of junk, they are not even banded on the edges and a low grade particle board is used. I was not able to confirm the same on the the PM2000 as it is fully laminated on all sides. The motor on the PM2000 is from china versus the General which has a Baldor motor and the torque ratings on the Baldor are much higher then the PM 2000. I did notice that on the General the mating surfaces of the cast iron extension wings to the table saw were nearly invisible as compared to the PM 2000. On the General the table edges are rounded versus the PM 2000 if that makes a difference I don't know other then cosmetics. So, thats what I have so far ansd still researching.

Seems that the "General" is in the lead.... yeeehawwww (sorry)!!!!!:p
You can always take out the swirl marks if you wanted to, and you can always replace the extension table with some soild wood also.

[John Miliunas]

Ed, thanks for the side-by-side comparison! :) Now, while you're doing such comparisons, you may also be interested in knowing that the trunnion assembly on the Bridgewood, BW10-LTS is built like the one on the General!!! However, General still has the advantage of the Baldor motor. FWIW, I have the BW and have hogged through some thick material both, in rip and dado runs and have had no issues surrounding necessary torque to get through the material (almost exclusively hardwoods). :)

You've also provided important info regarding the problems with the bushing on the PM2K. I was not aware of that and is a good thing to know. Just MHO but, I was never one to like "double-duty" features. Seems to me that, when something like that is done, there are concessions made. For instance, I note that both, the blade elevation and the angle adjustments on my BW really operate smoother than that of the PM2K. Just an observation... :) :cool:

[Frank Pellow]

Yes, Ted the wife said Ok, but I am still looking at other options. So far its the General 650, Delta, and the PM2000. Because it will be a large investment I just want to make sure, its the buyers remorse thing. I have read a lot about all of these and each one has thier own good, bad and ugly issues.
...
So, that's where I am, what I will end with I do not know at this time but either it will be the General or PM2000.
I have never heard anyone say anything ugly about a General 650. That's what I have and the only thing that I don't like about it is that it does not have a riving knife. Oh yes, I also agree with Edward that "the extension table material on the General are a piece of junk". But, I don't really consider that part of the saw, it is easily and replaced, and the replacement does not cost much.

[Mark Carlson]

Ed,

I bought my General 650 from Eagle Tools. Your right about the extension table. I never installed it. I mounted a Woodpecker router table instead. Eagle tools is a good place to purchase from because they will check over the machine before delivery. When I was there they installed the cord, powered the saw up, checked the table for flatness. They pretty much followed me home with their truck.

~mark

[Rick Schubert]

Opps, I accidently posted this to the older thread first.

The next issue of FWW (May/June 06) has a review of 10" cabinet saws. It can be seen now at their FWW Network site.

For what it is worth, they rated the PM2000 and the Sawstop 31320 as best overall and the Griz G1023SL as best value. They had pretty good things to say about the General as well.

Rick

[Ted Jay]

Opps, I accidently posted this to the older thread first.

The next issue of FWW (May/June 06) has a review of 10" cabinet saws. It can be seen now at their FWW Network site.

For what it is worth, they rated the PM2000 and the Sawstop 31320 as best overall and the Griz G1023SL as best value. They had pretty good things to say about the General as well.

Rick

hey, how about an Invicta:
http://www.invicta.com.br/usa/index.htm
I'm just throwing names at you now, :D
And yes I know they are Delta saws

[George Lesniak]

Hi Ed,

I too am in the market for a new cabinet saw and thought I had made my mind up when I looked at the General 350 next to a Unisaw. The General had (nearly) everything I wanted; massive trunnions, large heavy table, outstanding fit and finish. Then I saw the Laguna TS. Now I'm tossed once again. The TS is in the same price range as the General but has a true riving knife and has the option to add dado scoring and a superior sliding table later. Have you seen the TS or TSS? http://www.lagunatools.com/ts.htm

George

[Edward Carrion]

Well indeed my saga of a choice for a table saw continues. I talked with the folks at General the other day and they were very rude! All I asked was that in the advertisng flyer said that the 650 had a polished table and if the version (650) I was looking at had been an earlier release and if the newer versions were polished like the PM2000 is beacause when I went to look at General 650 (eagle tools) there were swirl marks from the grinding so, how can this be a polished surface? General's reply to me was "that is our polished surface and as long as you can barley feel it then it is polished to my standards". My reply was that it seemed that it was just only to a level if final grinding and not the polishing phase? he would give no response, I tried to ask for his name again but he just hung up on me and told me to have a nice day. I know Laguna has table saws and as well as others but if I keep adding to the mix I will never end up getting a new table saw. Unless of course there is a reason to do so? Right now I am weaiting for the wood show that starts on May 3rd to see what deals are offered there. I know sometimes the pricing is better on the internet then these wood shows. Because of what happened too me with the call to General I am now leaning toward the big beautiful yellow PM2000.

[JayStPeter]

To me, a splitter or riving knife that is quick and easy to deal with (i.e. < 10 seconds) is crucial. In all honesty, I find the removable splitter that I have on my Unisaw perfectly acceptable. I have seen no substantial reason to get a beefier trunnion than it has either. But, roaming the WW show, I was checking out the PM, Laguna, and sawstop.
One of my pet peeves of table saws is dust collection. I absolutely hate my overhead guard, but find it necessary for acceptable dust collection. The brand is unimportant. I think some other brands would make me hate it less, but none would stop me from seriously disliking it.
All 3 saws have a dust shroud around the blade where the DC connects. The laguna has a nice riving knive/blade guard combo with a dust port built in. The SS seems to have a similar guard with no dust port, which might be OK if the guard redirects the dust back underneath and the shroud works well. The PM looked like it had a copy of the stock US style blade guards that are junk. Only advantage is that it is easier removed for disposal and permanent replacement with the optional riving knife. I'm absolutely convinced that what's over the blade is as important as what is under it as far as DC goes. My understanding is that Felder is pretty much the leader as far as TS DC goes. IMO, the Laguna looks the most similar and SS second.
I was pretty interested to read the FWW article to see what they had to say about it. The answer ... nothing, it is a lame article.
Another thing that interests me about these saws is the table depth. I think they are all deeper than the 27" standard which is cool. But, the thing that interests me is being able to crosscut something 12" or larger with a miter gauge. It seems that the SS and PM have both moved the blade closer to the front to give more outfeed. I have an outfeed table, so that becomes a disadvantage instead of an advantage to me. The Laguna appeared to have an advantage here, but I didn't measure so can't be sure.
I think if I was buying now it would come down to these three with my wallet as my guide. Once you taka a Grizzly (with 50" fence) and add a Bies splitter, mobile base, and overhead guard your in range for the PM2K. As I stated earlier, I don't find all the add-ons to really be options.
In reality the only saw that really tempts me to actually upgrade from my Uni is the SS due to the SS mechanism itself. I do like the Laguna though.

Jay

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Edward...........Just received my copy of FWW ...........they just did a table saw review and test............You might find it interesting and a valuable aid in your decision!

[JayStPeter]

... that in the advertisng flyer said that the 650 had a polished table and if the version (650) I was looking at had been an earlier release and if the newer versions were polished like the PM2000 is beacause when I went to look at General 650 (eagle tools) there were swirl marks from the grinding ....

I wouldn't get too hung up on polished tables. My Uni had much rougher grinding marks than the General. About 20 minutes with 400 and 600 grit lubed with WD-40 had it very smooth and ready for use. My Grizzly BS came with a very well polished table and required only a waxing. Over the last few years, rust spots have required me to revisit both tops with 600 grit. Wood, other materials, miter gauges, etc. run over them have left scratches also. They both look about the same now. Unless you intend to treat your saw like a show car, I would consider it a non-issue.

Jay

[Frank Pellow]

I wouldn't get too hung up on polished tables. My Uni had much rougher grinding marks than the General. About 20 minutes with 400 and 600 grit lubed with WD-40 had it very smooth and ready for use. My Grizzly BS came with a very well polished table and required only a waxing. Over the last few years, rust spots have required me to revisit both tops with 600 grit. Wood, other materials, miter gauges, etc. run over them have left scratches also. They both look about the same now. Unless you intend to treat your saw like a show car, I would consider it a non-issue.

Jay
I agree with Jay (and, it would seem, with General) that it is a non-issue. :) The lack of riving knife is an issue. :(

[Rich Person]

Add me to the list that would get the riving knife. I just received my Sawstop, but my second choice would be the Laguna followed by the PM2000. The General is a great saw, but the safety and convenience of the riving knife would win the day. Do read the FWW article.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Well, I had decided on the PM2000 on March 8th. I am, however, starting to wonder if the saw actually exists. Just received an email from Amazon stating the estimated delivery time has been moved back another month to mid-May. I've called around and that seems to be the norm.

Let me ask this. Has anyone who ordered the PM2000 in February from Amazon received it yet? I'm a patient guy but I can't wait forever.

[Joe Jensen]

Must also look at the SawStop. My dealer has one with the top off. This saw is built incredibly well, built like the Euro slider table saws in the $10K range. Before you buy, try to at least look at the SawStop. Also, they have new videos up on their webstite. www.sawstop.com (http://www.sawstop.com)

[Lars Thomas]

Edward, just to echo some of the other comments, I wouldn't be to concerned about the level of polish on the top - as long as it's flat. I would also recommend you take a serious look at the Saw Stop. I have the 10" Jet and am contemplating going to the SS just for the safety features. lars

[Edward Carrion]

I found an ad for a Arbor Table Saw from Italy and have not been able to find anything on it. The person selling said it is spelled "Arbor" Has anyone heard of this brand? I am going to go see it tomorrow at 5pm PT and will post my findings. And as you guessed, I still have not puchased my saw yet. I am waiting for the wood working show comming up next week.:)

The saw stop looks like a great saw but at 3500 too much for me. I talked to an old friend of mine that works at Disneyland and said why not put a motor brake on the motor? It is supposed to stop just as fast as the Saw Stop within a few MS withot destroying the blade but, it will not drop the blade as the saw stop does. He fabricates and installs these devices at Disneyland sure would like to try it just for the heck of it and try that hot dog test? He also told me that these motor brakes are commercialy available. More to come on that later. Anyway, as he explained it goes something like this. The pullies are removed and a disk simular to a disk brake is installed and the pullies are then put back. Now the fabrication part. An electrical brake unit is installed into the disk. The brake unit requires voltage to remain open to allow the disk to spin freely. If there is no voltage the brake then makes contact with the disk and stops the motor. He said you could connect this to voltage sensor very simular to the Sawstop sensor. This could merit some further study.

[John Kain]

I found an ad for a Arbor Table Saw from Italy and have not been able to find anything on it. The person selling said it is spelled "Arbor" Has anyone heard of this brand? I am going to go see it tomorrow at 5pm PT and will post my findings. And as you guessed, I still have not puchased my saw yet. I am waiting for the wood working show comming up next week.:)

The saw stop looks like a great saw but at 3500 too much for me. I talked to an old friend of mine that works at Disneyland and said why not put a motor brake on the motor? It is supposed to stop just as fast as the Saw Stop within a few MS withot destroying the blade but, it will not drop the blade as the saw stop does. He fabricates and installs these devices at Disneyland sure would like to try it just for the heck of it and try that hot dog test? He also told me that these motor brakes are commercialy available. More to come on that later. Anyway, as he explained it goes something like this. The pullies are removed and a disk simular to a disk brake is installed and the pullies are then put back. Now the fabrication part. An electrical brake unit is installed into the disk. The brake unit requires voltage to remain open to allow the disk to spin freely. If there is no voltage the brake then makes contact with the disk and stops the motor. He said you could connect this to voltage sensor very simular to the Sawstop sensor. This could merit some further study.
Ed, I hear what you are saying.........but AT LEAST half of the principle behind the sawstop system is stopping the blade in 3 milliseconds. The OTHER half is the blade retraction which also occurs in 3 milliseconds. One cannot function well without the other.

I do agree that Sawstop (or competitor) will soon design a system that does NOT ruin a blade when activated. Until then, some of us (I'm a surgeon) will rely on SawStop to give us peace of mind.

That said: That new PM2000 is awfully sexy..............

[Rob Bodenschatz]

The following items have been shipped to you by Amazon.com:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Qty Item Price Shipped Subtotal
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Powermatic PM 2000 3HP 1ph Ca $1,980.00 1 $1,980.00

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Item Subtotal: $1,980.00
Shipping & Handling: $0.00

Total: $1,980.00

[Jeremy Chisholm]

You beat me by an hour! (but it looks like I got you by a penny):D

woo hoo! it's been a long time comin'!

The following items have been shipped to you by Amazon.com:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Qty Item Price Shipped Subtotal
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Powermatic PM 2000 3HP 1ph Ca $2,199.99 1 $2,199.99

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Item Subtotal: $2,199.99
Shipping & Handling: $359.00

Super Saver Discount $-359.00
National Tool Days $-220.00

Total: $1,979.99

Paid by Discover: $1,979.99

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Hmmmm.... Wonder how that happened. Looks like they made an error on my order. Should I call them up and demand my penny? ;)

BTW, delivery is this Friday. Pics to come. :D

[Donald Van Slambrook]

I wanted to put out a warning notice to new PM2000 owners.
I received my PM2000 this past Monday. When you get yours, don't try to assemble the rear rail to the table with the 1-1/4 inch bolts as stated in the instructions, they will bottom-out on the trunion mounts...causing stripping/breakage/other mayhem. :mad:

Use a shorter bolt, around 3/4" should be fine.

The saw, otherwise, seems fine. I should find out Monday if Powermatic is going to set me up with a new table. (long story)

Added: PM did send me a new top. And shorter bolts (5/16 x 7/8") for mounting the rear rail. The saw is up and running and making sawdust at a prodigious rate.:)