I am stuck on what to do?

[Josh Goldsmith]

Hello all! A friend who is a artist has asked me to make some picture frame for her paintings. She usually uses a very basic frame that she makes her self but now since she is attracting a little higher class people who are willing to pay big bucks she want something similiar but little more classy. She used to use cheap 1 1/2" wide pine and paint them black. Now she wants me to do something similiar but with mitered corners. I thought about using mdf and then paint it black but i am not excited about painting it. Then i thought about staing some wood with a dark stain and so on. I think it would look alot nicer. Is it possible to stain some wood black? If i do have to paint it what paint should i use? Something durable. Thanks Josh

[Perry Holbrook]

Josh, I do a lot of black dye on wood. For small projects, go to the local supermarket and pick up a bottle of shoe dye, NOT polish. That dye is actually an alcohol based product.

You will have better results on dense woods vs open pore. I use a lot of hickory for dyeing. It could take a couple of coats.

I buy leather dye by the gallon and dip most of my smaller pieces.

Perry

[Vaughn McMillan]

Josh, the guys over in the finishing forum could point you to several ways to dye or stain the wood black. Or search on "black stain" or "black finish" (including the quotation marks) and you'll see a number of threads discussing blackened wood. Properly done, the wood can look black, with the grain still somewhat visible. I think that, or a well done black lacquer would be appropriate for a higher-end frame. And IMHO, don't use MDF for a nice picture frame.

- Vaughn

[Michael Ballent]

With a little chemistry you can do it... just follow this:

http://www.joewoodworker.com/ruststain.htm

It does not have to walnut, just about any wood with a high tannin content can be done. You can then apply ebony stain or repeat the rust/stain application. :D

[Don Baer]

I agree with Michael on this one. use red OAK and then Ebonize it. It will be inexpensive and look good too.

[Josh Goldsmith]

Sweet! I am finally feeling confident about getting awesome results. When i do a project, even a cheap one, i like the results to be perfect. Anyways does anyone have any pics of ebonized wood. I want to make sure before i start this. I want the darkest black i can get. Maybe a wood with light grains nothing crazy. Thanks Josh

[norman mitchel]

A recent article in one of the mag. advised there is now mdf already stained black with the whole piece coloured. So when you rout the edge the same colour comes through. There are other colours available as well, red, yellow green etc. My nephew has been in touch with the mfg. for some black mdf. If interested I can find out more.

[Dan Forman]

I would recommend NOT using MDF for picture frames, especially if framed under glass. It might contaminate the environment inside the frame with nasties offgassed from the MDF, which could damage the artwork. I wouldn't be very confident of the miters holding that well either. A glass framed piece of any appreciable size can be quite heavy, and the frame material has to resisit bowing under the weight. It would not hold the screws for the hanging wire all that well. Better to go with real wood in my opinion.

Dan

[scott spencer]

Hi Josh - Two things come to mind....one is to considering using poplar if you're going to paint it....the edges of MDF don't take paint as well as the surface.

The second is to consult with your friend about painting or staining...artists can be very particular about what they want.

[scott spencer]

Hi Josh - Two things come to mind....one is to considering using poplar if you're going to paint it....the edges of MDF don't take paint as well as the surface.

The second is to consult with your friend about painting or staining...artists can be very particular about what they want.

[scott spencer]

Hi Josh - Two things come to mind....one is to considering using poplar if you're going to paint it....the edges of MDF don't take paint as well as the surface.

The second is to consult with your friend about painting or staining...artists can be very particular about what they want.

[Richard Wolf]

I have often used India Ink to stain wood black. I buy a quart from an art supply store. Two coats, and it's jet black. I topcoat with Deft spray Lac.

Richard

[Mike Cutler]

Josh.

Do a search on "ebonizing", and you should get tons of info in addition to the info already presented here. Almost all of the woodstain companies have an "ebony" or " ebonizing" stain.
Ebonizing Red Oak can be very striking. Red oak has a characteristic where the grain will still be seen, but will have flats and glossy areas, depending on the grain pattern. You will also highlight any of the rays and flecks if it is quartersawn.
For a more uniform texture. I believe the wood of choice is walnut.
Lots of ways to skin the cat on this one.

[Don Baer]

Josh,
Here is a thread on ebonizing.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=31044&highlight=ebonizing

I would machine and dry fit the pices of the frame first then obonize it to the desire darkness. then glue up and finish.

[Josh Goldsmith]

What is India Ink? What would be better to do? Ebonizing or India Ink? Where can you get India ink? Thanks Josh

[Mike Cutler]

What is India Ink? What would be better to do? Ebonizing or India Ink? Where can you get India ink? Thanks Josh

I don't think that one technique is necessarily
better" than the other, just different. I would experiment with both. The one you don't use this time may be the technique that you use the next time.

India ink can be obtained from any well stocked stationery/graphics/art supply type store. You might even find it in one of the online woodworking store. The only thing I don't know is if the India Ink of today is the same as it was 30 years ago, or has the formula changed due to pollution laws or something. Last time I played with it was in school, and you couldn't wash it off. You had to wait for the skin to wear off.I Had a patch of blue for half of the 8th grade on my forearm

I wonder if Red India Ink can be used. That would be interesting. Not for this project, but maybe for another one. I'm going to have to try out the India Ink suggestion.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I'm confused is the frame a part of the art form?

[Richard Wolf]

India Ink is the black ink used by artists for pen and ink drawings. It works well to turn grainless wood, like maple black. Ebonizing, is the process of staining a wood with grain, like oak, as dark as possible, and still let grain pattarns show through. Two different looks. Like I said before, I buy India ink at art supply stores.
Here is a link, www.dickblick.com/zz211/01/
Richard

[Josh Goldsmith]

Hey Richard do you have any pics of India Ink on maple wood? I like to use maple as much as i can. So that sounded like a great idea. The ebonizing sounds like it would work but it also sounds like alot of work to get the right mix of stuff. I don't know much though. Thanks for the help everyone!!!!!

[Richard Wolf]

I have used it on some of my chairs.

Richard

[Josh Goldsmith]

Nice chair richard! So is the wood really black or is it along the grey side of black? What kind of wood did you make the chair out of? I think i am going to try the india ink on some maple and hope it goes jet black!:D Thanks Josh

[Randy Meijer]

Josh: With all due respect, something seems to be missing here?? The artist was doing pine frames with butt joints(presumably) and painted black and now that she is selling her pictures for "big bucks" she is "moving up" to MDF frames with mitered joints painted or stained black. Unless I have missed something, that does not seem to be much of a move??

[Richard Wolf]

Nice chair richard! So is the wood really black or is it along the grey side of black? What kind of wood did you make the chair out of? I think i am going to try the india ink on some maple and hope it goes jet black!:D Thanks Josh

The wood is jet black. It does take two coats to get it there. This chair is maple.

Richard

[Byron Trantham]

Josh, I don't know what "look" you are trying to achieve. I have made dozens of picture frames using gloss black enamel. It's tough and covers well (over poplar). If you are looking to show the grain pattern, then dye or stain is a better choice but it requires a top coat.

[Mac McAtee]

What is India Ink? What would be better to do? Ebonizing or India Ink? Where can you get India ink? Thanks Josh

India Ink is the black ink that is used for art work, calagraphy and drafting. It is black-black. Very heavy in pigment. It makes a great ebonizing dye, as stated above. You can get it at any art supply store, AC Moores, Hobby Lobby, Ben Franklin, may even find it in the art supplies at WalMart, K-Mart or Target. Comes in bottles from about 1 oz. size to quarts. You could also order it on line from Dick Blick. I'd go for the art supply small bottle, test it out on the wood you will be using, develop a techique that suits you, show your customer a sample finished the way you intend. If she finds that acceptable then go get the pint or quart bottle.

What ever you do, don't put India Ink in a fountain pen, it will ruin it. Fountain pens require a very complete dissassembly and cleaning if India Ink is ever put in them.

Try this link for a brief discripton: http://www.dickblick.com/zz211/01/ I did a search there for India Ink and came up with 572 hits.

[Perry Holbrook]

Looks like no one is interested in the shoe dye approach. A lot of us pros use it. I think if you try it you will see that it is very effective, cheap, easy and color fast.

When I first started using a lot of black in my work, I first did the ebony thing with walnut. It did look pretty good, but required a good bit of care in application to get a uniform appearance.

I agree that walnut may be the best choice for dyeing. The grain is just right to see that it is wood but not overpowering. Cherry is also a good choice. The open grain woods like ash and oak can look "too much" sometimes, especially if the piece is small.

Perry

[Greg Sznajdruk]

What is India Ink? What would be better to do? Ebonizing or India Ink? Where can you get India ink? Thanks Josh

Checked Josh's profile yeap he is a young fellow. India ink I'm old enough to rember 3rd grade, straight nib pens and ink wells.

My father was cleaning out a closet and pulled out an ink blotter, my two boys asked him what it was. So being a good Grad Dad explained to them what it was. The boys listen to his explaination then after asked me if Grad Dad was shinning them on.

Greg

[Brandon Shew]

Has anyone given any thought to how some of these chemical stains, dyes, etc would/could affect the artwork? If your friends work is commanding decent prices then most patrons will probably want an archival type framing where all of the materials used in the framing/matting process are inert and will not affect the work in any way.

[Josh Goldsmith]

Yes that is a good point. Will the india ink hurt the paintings? Do i use a standard finish on top of the india ink? Somebody said something about painted mdf wouldn't be much of an upgrade compared to what she used to do. All she is looking for is a really clean contemporary style frame that she can send with her paintings for a couple of reasons. One reason is some of her paintings are 4'x8' on 1/4 wood. I forget the name of the wood but it is the stuff you can get from home depot with one side really smooth and the other side is rough. Anyways the paintings need the support so they don't bend. Second reason is the satin black frame really brings out the paintings and makes them look clean. I am going to try the india ink on maple and then i will feel a little better about building a frame for someone who just payed anywhere between 450-1000+ for a painting. Tomorrow i will get some pics of her work and i show you guys. Thanks josh

[Michael Ballent]

All I have to say is that I am a computer geek that does woodworking as a hobby... not a museum type :D :p

But that is a good point... given that I would say at a minimum the rabbet should not have anything in there other than plane wood. The chemical dyes are most likely not going to leach any color out, but they could fume out some which could affect the paintings...

One other item to keep in mind is that MDF typically has formaldehyde (how ever that is spelled) which could also be bad...


Has anyone given any thought to how some of these chemical stains, dyes, etc would/could affect the artwork? If your friends work is commanding decent prices then most patrons will probably want an archival type framing where all of the materials used in the framing/matting process are inert and will not affect the work in any way.

[Josh Goldsmith]

I told you i would get some pics of the paintings that she wants me to frame. Here is just a few of her pics. She has got her paintings in alot of hotels, resturants, homes. What do you think of the paintings?

[Randy Meijer]

None of the paintings you posted have black frames?? One appears to have a gray frame.

[Josh Goldsmith]

That is because i haven't built them yet!:D Very contemporary paintings but i am a big fan of contemporary art!

[Richard Wolf]

That is because i haven't built them yet!:D Very contemporary paintings but i am a big fan of contemporary art!

Good answer Josh, get to work. Nice paintings by the way!

Richard

[Michael Ballent]

I really like those paintings. Very nice looking. I know that I am not the artist, but I would think that something that is really simple would be ticket, especially on the pieces that have more than canvas.