Help with GCSS purchase recommendations?

[Jamie Coffman]

Not intending to start a partisan brand battle, I began this quest having been out of the industry for several years and was initially looking for a system that I remembered seeing in a wood working magazine a few years back. The system I was searching for was based on a sliding t-square with an optional folding/tilting table. There were mounting plates that I seem to recall were fairly universal between brands and there was a similar type of adapter plate for routing. The system was said to be self squaring, quick change from rip to X-cut, etc., all things that I've found plenty of current claims for from proponents of the E-Z & Fest systems that are the current vogue. Both of these systems look very appealing, especially the D/C capabilities of the Fest, but I would feel much better with more input from experienced users. I'd also like to know if the other system I was thinking of is familiar to anyone & if so I'd like to try to compare it to the E & F systems if it is still available. The only clue I have about the name of the system was a reference from an old trade show notice that mentioned Bradbury Industries Panel King. This may or may not be what I was thinking of but I can't find any current info. on the Panel King to be certain. Just trying to excercise due diligence before commit the coin. I have three large kitchen jobs upcoming that'll go a long way toward amortizing the outlay.

*The USDA employs 1 person for every farmer in America*
*Why do they call our tax money "Revenue", are they in
business?*
-something is very wrong-:eek:

[tod evans]

welcome jamie! i have neither system so can`t help....02 tod

[Dan Racette]

EZ is what I have. I just acquired a 5 station combo machine with a sliding table. I am looking to sell mine as of now.

It will be in the classy's soon!

I have not used the festool system. The EZ system works as advertised on their sight. I don't have any "partisanship" toward either product.

[Don Baer]

Jammie,
I don't use either but welcome to the creek.

[Michael Ballent]

I have the Festool system and love it. But it sounds like you are a professional woodworker so I would say that a panel saw would be the best bet for someone in your position. A Euro slider would be faster and more repeatable for a pro rather than any of the Guided systems. Don't get me wrong both GCSS can do what a slider or verticle panel saw can but it will take you longer to complete, which will cost you money.

If you are going to be on site to build something then a either the Festool or EZ system will be your best friend. :D

[Jon Toebbe]

The dust collection would be very handy with the Festool rig if you're planning on cutting panels on the jobsite.

Though I've got the EZ Smart and love it. It works well with the circular saw I already had, and I like the fact that it actually clamps to the panel, rather than sitting on top of it held by friction. I wouldn't cut a sheet of plywood without it!

[Burt Waddell]

Jamie,

I'm a full-time woodworker and do more kitchens than anything else. I discovered the EZ Smart system a few months ago and have been very happy with it, In fact, I just took my horizontal panel saw apart and converted the table into a cutting table to use with the EZ Smart Cabinet Maker.

From my point of view, the cabinet maker is what that makes the EZ Smart so ideal. The cabinet maker is a square and repeater(stop system) that mount on a EZ Rail. Using it, I usually do the crosscutting first and then do the rips. It is fast and easy. Since you only move the board when you put it on the table to cut it, you decrease the amount of lifting that you do and you finish the day feeling a lot better. The repeater allows you to set stops for repeat cuts. It really speeds things up.

Also the SRK is available for the EZ System.It is a router kit that is the best I've seen for dados, rabbits and flutes.

Take a few minutes and visit the EZ Smart site. While you are there, be sure to checkout the photo gallery and especially Dino's Gallery. Dino's gallery shows tools and techniques that are being developed. the Web site is WWW.Eurekazone.Com (http://www.Eurekazone.Com)

Burt

[Steve Clardy]

Welcome Jamie!!
I have the EZ system.
If you already have a skilsaw, you can save some bucks with this system.

[Bob Noles]

Jamie,

Welcome to SMC. I think the best answer to question is to ask yourself the question of what saw you want to use. You will then have your answer as to what guide system will work best with the saw of choice.

I like my PC325 and therefore the EZ system was my best choice.

[Frank Pellow]

The dust collection would be very handy with the Festool rig if you're planning on cutting panels on the jobsite.

Though I've got the EZ Smart and love it. It works well with the circular saw I already had, and I like the fact that it actually clamps to the panel, rather than sitting on top of it held by friction. I wouldn't cut a sheet of plywood without it!
Just to clarify in case there is any doubt about the above statement about clamping - the Festoll guide rail can also be clamped to the material that one is sawing (although I find that it is seldom necessary).

[Frank Pellow]

Jamie, welcome to Saw Mill Creek. I have learned a great deal here in the two years since I joined and I hope that you will do the same.

I have the Festool GTS (Guided Tool System) and really like it, but I am fairly sure that I would also like the EZ GTS.

[Richard Wolf]

Welcome. I have the Festool system. I am sure if you are only looking for a GTS, either Festool or EZ will work. Let me add this, If you plan on doing onsite installations, the whole Festool system of tools works very well for us. Not only are they very well made tool, but the system looks very professional. Alot of people may say, tools are tools, but when you look professional, you get to charge professional prices.

Richard

[Don Bergren]

I use the EZ system. As has been said, the ability to use the guide along with the Cabinet Maker square/repeater accessory, as well as the regular repeaters makes accurate duplicate cutting a breeze. With the addition of the Smart Router kit it gives one what they need to easily work with sheet goods.

I have found that the system will do a whole lot more than I ever imagined.

[richard poitras]

The name of the system you are talking about ( I think) is the Pannel King by Bradbury Industries out of Toronto Canada / phone number is 1-800-668-1757/ I used to have the panel king pro, it was 5' x10' it took up a lot of space in my shop and I was moving so I had sold it/ as far as how well it worked it worked really well, you could cut or route with it and or cut odd shaped boards, even odd shaped boards do to the fact you can cut in the horizontal position, it had positive stops on it for repeat cuts, they are over $3000.00 in cost(some thing to think about if money is a issue )if you are going to do cabinets and a lot of production work they are a very fast and easy way to get the job done , but if you are a regular wood worker you might just wont to get the EZ or the Festo system for the money they are a lot cheaper with good cuts and less space and you can take them to a job site where the PK you have to leave in your shop.

[Burt Waddell]

I have the Festool system and love it. But it sounds like you are a professional woodworker so I would say that a panel saw would be the best bet for someone in your position. A Euro slider would be faster and more repeatable for a pro rather than any of the Guided systems. Don't get me wrong both GCSS can do what a slider or verticle panel saw can but it will take you longer to complete, which will cost you money.

If you are going to be on site to build something then a either the Festool or EZ system will be your best friend. :D

I can agree with you that traditional wisdom says that the slider or vertical system would be faster but after experiencing the EZ Smart with the repeaters, I have to say that you are incorrect. I've had both a slider and a vertical panel saw in my shop and the EZ is faster than either. Also the EZ is also more accurate. As for repeat cuts, you can't beat the repeaters.

[tod evans]

I can agree with you that traditional wisdom says that the slider or vertical system would be faster but after experiencing the EZ Smart with the repeaters, I have to say that you are incorrect. I've had both a slider and a vertical panel saw in my shop and the EZ is faster than either. Also the EZ is also more accurate. As for repeat cuts, you can't beat the repeaters.

burt, i understand that you`re impressed with your skillsaw guide, to the point of enthusiam,(i`ve just read your last 20+ posts) and this is all well and good but please don`t make blanket statements like you have here. granted a skillsaw on a rail may provide "you" with more accuracy and speed than "you" where able to achieve with a slider and panel saw but there are still the majority of small shop owners across the country who feel otherwise and continue to purchase industrial quality equipment knowing the availability of the skillsaw guides and the cost differance. surely all of these folks aren`t just ignorant? .02 tod

[Michael Ballent]

Have you actually timed it? I know that Frank Pellow did his famous test, using Festool mind you, alond with stacking the plywood and he was still slower than Charles (sorry I forgot your last name ) with a minimax slider. What I am saying is that I think anyone would be hard pressed to beat a machine that is sitting there, plugged in and ready to work. I am talking about the total time it takes from beginning to end, including the time it would take to cut that whisker off.

Think of the workflow that is involved with one of the Euro slider (assuming a really big one)
1) set stop for rip
2) cut as many as you want
3) reset stop for cross cut
4) make as many cuts as you want.


On a guided setup
1) set 2 stops for repeater (using EZ as an example) and make sure they are parallel.
2) make your cuts making sure everything is square
3) reset for cross cut
4)make as many cuts as you want

What I and Todd are saying is that the actual setup time between the 2 favors the slider, so as someone fiddles with the repeaters, the competition is making cuts since its a single step operation on their slider.

Of course there beam saws ;) now we are talking speed :D ;)

Those are my .02 :)


I can agree with you that traditional wisdom says that the slider or vertical system would be faster but after experiencing the EZ Smart with the repeaters, I have to say that you are incorrect. I've had both a slider and a vertical panel saw in my shop and the EZ is faster than either. Also the EZ is also more accurate. As for repeat cuts, you can't beat the repeaters.

[Burt Waddell]

burt, i understand that you`re impressed with your skillsaw guide, to the point of enthusiam,(i`ve just read your last 20+ posts) and this is all well and good but please don`t make blanket statements like you have here. granted a skillsaw on a rail may provide "you" with more accuracy and speed than "you" where able to achieve with a slider and panel saw but there are still the majority of small shop owners across the country who feel otherwise and continue to purchase industrial quality equipment knowing the availability of the skillsaw guides and the cost differance. surely all of these folks aren`t just ignorant? .02 tod


Michael and Todd

You are both practicing that conventional wisdom that I mentioned. Have either of you actually cut up a stack of plywood with the EZ Smart cabinet maker? I don't want to offend Frank, but what he did with the Festool system isn't applcable. The EZ has repeat functions that Festool doesn't. These make the EZ must faster. Go to the EZ Smart Site and check out the cabinet maker!!

www.eurekazone.com (http://www.eurekazone.com)

[tod evans]

burt, as i`ve stated repeatedly, "i don`t own any commercially available guide system" sure i`ve looked, i`ve seen most of dinos site as well as festools. but honestly there ain`t no way i`m going to believe that a little ol` 15 amp 110 motor can cut as fast as a true 9hp! nor will i believe that any extrusion regardless of maker is capable of maintaining the degree of accuracy that a ballbearing slider does. further a piece of rubber/plastic ect. cannot provide the ability to prevent chipout over the long haul that a counter-rotating 10k scoring blade will. when the inherant manufacturing sloppiness of a consumer grade skillsaw is added to the mix the final outcome of this equation is even more evident. i`m sure these systems excell at what they do but there`s no way they`ll ever stack up to true production machines. don`t you think some of the big boys would be saturating the market if they could? as i said i`m glad you`re delighted with your alternitive to production machines but an honest comparison just isn`t going to happen.....it`s apples to tequila...02 tod

[Burt Waddell]

Traditional wisdom at its finest!!!

[tod evans]

Traditional wisdom at its finest!!!

care to make a wager?

[Steve Clardy]

Hang on hang on. Give me time to get another pot of coffee and donuts ready-----------------------------------------------

Ok. Ready;)

[Ian Barley]

Attempting to stick somewhere close to Jamies original question - either system appears to work well. I have Festool because I wanted a very good saw and they make one. It happens to have a guide rail available as well. I agree with Bob, decide on your saw and let that lead you to a rail.

I use my GCSS system to rip a straight edge on lumber which is too long to fit my slider. It does the job well. I use my slider to rip a straight edge on lumber which fits on my slider. It does the job well. I make at least 10,000 such cuts a year. Thankfully only a couple of hundred of them rely on the GCSS. If I had to rip a lot of long timber I would get a bigger slider because, in my experience, that way of working is more comfortable, and at least as quick if not quicker.

[Burt Waddell]

I agree with Bob, decide on your saw and let that lead you to a rail.

I think it is best to decide on the rail first and then select the saws to go with the rail. In fact, I have a cordless 6 1/2" saw, a couple of 7 1/4" saws, a 8 1/4" saw, a 10 1/4" saw and a Festool all set for the EZ rail. If I had chosen the wrong rail, only one of those saws would work.

[Richard Wolf]

Has anyone ever seen Burt and Dino at the same time??? I'm starting to wonder!

Richard

[Ian Barley]

If I had chosen the wrong rail, only one of those saws would work.
Burt - Relax. The point is that there is not a right rail and a wrong rail. They are both good products. I have no axe to grind and actually couldn't care less what choice anybody makes 'cause I have made mine and am happy with it. There are features to the Festool saw (plunge cut etc) which I could not find on another saw but which I liked. I have no need for 4 saws so I chose just one, having chosen it the choice of guide rail was easier to make. If Jamie needs more than one saw then your point is valid and he should choose the Easy system. If he wants to use a saw he already has and it is not a Festool then he should choose Easy. I was not proselityzing for any brand. Things run smoother round here when we all avoid doing so.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Goodness, I expected a dust up between EZ and Festool, but not this again between EZ and production equipment :rolleyes:

I have the Festool set up, I wanted the good saw (remember guys "Stu in TOKYO JAPAN") the nice circular saws you guys get in the US are not available here, and the nice Japanese ones cost as much as the Festool does but with out all the cool functions and the DC.

I like the Festool, everything about it is very well done and refined over a few generations of the saw, no Kool aid drinker here, this is one good saw and rail set up.

Not bashing EZ, so don't go there.

Tod you are right, I know you know it, as I do. I worked in a production shop for a while, we built sleepers for White Western Star Trucks, I ran a LARGE slider for a few months, we cut up the floors for these units, 3/4" treated plywood, cut a whole pallet load a day sometimes.

I know that the circular saw may have worked in this situation, but I'm sure glad no bean counter ever heard of it while I was doing that job! :D

The Slider we had was some brand I cannot remember, and or I've never heard of again, it was not new, and it saw constant use, year in and year out, and the only thing I ever saw changed on it was the saw blades, otherwise the maintenance guys just kept it lubed. I have no doubt that that same saw is still there at that factory working 10 hours a day.

Whew.......

OK about the GCSS, if you need or want a great saw, capable of cutting, with the right blade and the proper speed setting, just about any material you can think of, plus killer DC, then I'd say go with the Festool, the TS55 is the basic unit, if you think you will need the extra capacity of the bigger unit, go for that (TS75..?)

If you would like to see the EZ system, I'm sure that you have seen the links here to it.

One place you can go to see the Festool system work is at Mr. John Lucas's site woodshopdemos.com, he has a lot of real world testing and use of the various Festool set ups.

No matter what you do, I'm sure you will be pleased with it.

Cheers!

[Pete Harbin]

Jamie,

I have one of the GCSSes and it will remain nameless here. I really like mine...so much so, that I'm considering giving up my RAS since I have a nice long table and you can clamp the rails right to whatever piece your cutting, right on the line you want to cut.

Like others have said, if you're interested in the tools Festool sells as well, specifically the CS and router for the purpose of using the rails, then invest in the Festool system. It's a fair bit more pricey, but I have yet to hear one person complain about the quality of the tools.

If you've already got a nice CS and/or routers, or want to use the new repeaters and add-ons that the EZ system has, then go with that one.

Both systems have proven to be capable of producing very accurate and high quality, clean cuts. You can't go wrong with either.

Pete

[Burt Waddell]

Has anyone ever seen Burt and Dino at the same time??? I'm starting to wonder!

Richard

Richard,

That is an easy one to answer. No. We've never met.


Burt

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hang on hang on. Give me time to get another pot of coffee and donuts ready-----------------------------------------------

Ok. Ready;)

Steve,
I got my coffee pot ready...can I have a donut ....please????

Oh by the way what was the question?

[Paul B. Cresti]

I can agree with you that traditional wisdom says that the slider or vertical system would be faster but after experiencing the EZ Smart with the repeaters, I have to say that you are incorrect. I've had both a slider and a vertical panel saw in my shop and the EZ is faster than either. Also the EZ is also more accurate. As for repeat cuts, you can't beat the repeaters.

Burt,
I am sorry for even saying this....and I guess I shouldn't but :D ...you must be the only man in the whole industry that builds kitchens and prefers a guided saw system to a vertical panel saw or a sliding saw... what saws did you run? :confused:

[Steve Clardy]

Steve,
I got my coffee pot ready...can I have a donut ....please????

Oh by the way what was the question?


Sure!!:D I'll slide a couple through to you:eek: :D

[Burt Waddell]

I've never confessed to being a conformist!

[Paul B. Cresti]

I've never confessed to being a conformist!

Now there is an original idea :D , if you think the likes of Tod and I are following anyone, boy do you got it wrong , have fun with the nice shooting board...;)

[tod evans]

sheeple i ain`t!

[Steve Clardy]

Richard,

That is an easy one to answer. No. We've never met.


Burt


Burt. Do you have a picture of yourself you could post. You need a avatar

[tod evans]

no pictures of work, shop or tools???? hmmmm!

[Dino Makropoulos]

no pictures of work, shop or tools???? hmmmm!

Tod.
I saw some pictures from Burt's wood shop.
I can tell you this about Burt.
He can take an idea and make it 10 times better.
The guy is SMART.
Please, tell him that you can't imagine a better tool
or even a better way.:rolleyes:

Me, I have another way of getting Burt to solve few woodworking related problems.
I just tell him that is so easy that he can't find it.:D
Works either way with Burt.:cool:

When we hold a quiz on our forum.
He come up with easier and better answers than the quiz guy.:rolleyes:
But he never post them on the forum.
He likes to see other people thinking.

I think we may have a nice Burt's wood shop tour soon. ;)

[Jamie Coffman]

DSL went down as soon as I posted & I'm just catching up. More specifics would have probably helped. Past year been building 32mm cabs using jigs, rigs & port. tools in a garage or on site, slow but it works. Just building a new 1900 sf garage/shop behind my house, (I run my small company out of my home), that will double as a maintenance garage for a mini excavator & compact track loader from time to time so everything has to remain somewhat portable. Build 2-3 custom &/or spec houses a year mixed w/ more and more referrals for kitchens & remodel work. I like the kitchen work, also nice to be able to cost effectively upscale spec house kitchens to help stand out from the crowd. Already own an assortment of quality routers, trimmers & port. saws. Future holds less on site fabrication. Accurate repeatability is major as is anything that will get me away from hand drilling system holes w/ a port. drill & guide, short of purchasing a line borer. Hinge cups are drilled on a small drill press. Also been sometimes fabbing raised panel components rather than buying. O.K. results w/ router table but would like to do more. Have had less than stellar results trying to adapt P.C. circ. saw to any kind of dust control. New shop will have a dedicated HVLP finishing room (got it all on the very cheap @ auction), but dust control is still important. Cost is always an issue since my wife is not a tool junkie and she does the books. Sounds like Festool D/C and router drilling setup might be better suited for me as I haven't seen much about either w/ regards to the E-Z system. Thank you all again for your considerable assistance and remarks, wish I'd found ya sooner! I'm going to go flip a coin now... and probably end up buying both.

[Frank Pellow]

...
Cost is always an issue since my wife is not a tool junkie and she does the books.
...
I'm going to go flip a coin now... and probably end up buying both.

Buying both? :confused: I guess I should have my wife take over the books. :D

[Burt Waddell]

Now there is an original idea :D , if you think the likes of Tod and I are following anyone, boy do you got it wrong , have fun with the nice shooting board...;)


Paul,

I assure that I did not intend to label anyone as a conformist. I have found that most people who are serious about working with wood, dance to their own drum beat. As for the shooting board - I'm not going to comment on that one:rolleyes:

Burt

[Jamie Coffman]

More likely to be neither were I to leave it up to her. This may end up being one of those UPS deliveries that goes to my brother's house 1st.;) :rolleyes:;)

[Steve Clardy]

More likely to be neither were I to leave it up to her. This may end up being one of those UPS deliveries that goes to my brother's house 1st.;) :rolleyes:;)

Hear that!!!;)

[Frank Pellow]

More likely to be neither were I to leave it up to her. This may end up being one of those UPS deliveries that goes to my brother's house 1st.;) :rolleyes:;)
Oh sure, let your brother take the heat from his wife :p [I](if he is married)/I] :p

[Jamie Coffman]

You're familiar with the adage "Ignorance is bliss"? Well their marriage remains quite blissful; she is ignorant to him and he ignores her. Other than that she's an interior designer who's never finished "redoing" something or other in their house so I'll likely end up building them another free kitchen like the one I put in their last house...just before they sold it... after telling me they were staying there for at least 10 more years and couldn't afford to fix up the kitchen and would I help...Hey, wait a minute, maybe I'll just try a neighbor.
:) Always helps to talk these things through first.
Gee with the money I can save using this in place of therapy I can buy all kinds of new tools...;)

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

More likely to be neither were I to leave it up to her. This may end up being one of those UPS deliveries that goes to my brother's house 1st.;) :rolleyes:;)

My brother is not here in Japan, but I have some good buddies that are, and they are single, so they don't have to take any of that kind of heat..... ;)

Of course, there is always a seat at my Christmas table for these guys too!


Cheers!

[Ian Barley]

Ah - the joy of having a workshop 10 miles away from home:)

[Steve Clardy]

Ah - the joy of having a workshop 10 miles away from home:)

Mines 50 foot from the back door of the house.:D
No getting out of someone seeing the UP's truck showing up, or the post man delivering a oversize package:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[tod evans]

Ah - the joy of having a workshop 10 miles away from home:)

dito! 25 miles here but same concept.

[tod evans]

Tod.
Please, tell him that you can't imagine a better tool
or even a better way.:rolleyes:

;)

dino, i have this issue with honesty, when somebody posts that they have torn down their horizontal panel saw (read slider)

[quote burt ]"I'm a full-time woodworker and do more kitchens than anything else. I discovered the EZ Smart system a few months ago and have been very happy with it, In fact, I just took my horizontal panel saw apart and converted the table into a cutting table to use with the EZ Smart Cabinet Maker." [end quote]

to use a guided skillsaw and then states that this system is faster and more accurate than a true slider i have some real issues here! if this where in fact true the cabinet industry would have allready embraced this concept. would they not?
now for me to tell anybody on a public forum that i think a skillsaw and a piece of aluminum extrusion is a "better tool" or even a "better way" would flat out be lying on my part! i`ve been a full time,self employed carpenter for quite a while and am pretty familiar with the tools of the trade, and the methods of work employed in both small shops and large production facilities so i feel pretty safe saying that given a choice of a slider or a skillsaw set-up 99.9% of the folks surveyed would opt for the slider to earn their bread-n-butter.

further i felt it was time for somebody to call "bull-hocky" on burts posts, all of them i have read are shameless plugs for your system, never a nice word about sombodies work, never an opinion on such things as finishing or pocket hole jigs or even a pick-up truck for heavens sake!
i hope i have made my position clear? please take no offence dino, i`m sure you make a very good product and should i ever need an aluminum extrusion to guide my skillsaw or router i will give your system an honest look-see, just as i will the other offerings.. 02 tod

[Dino Makropoulos]

dino, i have this issue with honesty, when somebody posts that they have torn down their horizontal panel saw (read slider)

[quote burt ]"I'm a full-time woodworker and do more kitchens than anything else. I discovered the EZ Smart system a few months ago and have been very happy with it, In fact, I just took my horizontal panel saw apart and converted the table into a cutting table to use with the EZ Smart Cabinet Maker." [end quote]

Tod.
The simplicity ,versatility ,speed, ease, repeatability and accuracy
of the ez smart system can make anyone to look like a liar.
And anyone to take the position-opinion that you're taking.


to use a guided skillsaw and then states that this system is faster and more accurate than a true slider i have some real issues here! if this where in fact true the cabinet industry would have already embraced this concept. would they not?

YES. The ez smart is more accurate than a slider BECAUSE you have no moving parts and your cutting line/blade is calibrated to zero.
(similar to a CNC)
The wasted side can now be your good side, eliminating the kick backs and accidents.
You're isolated from the saw blade at all times.
The only thing touching the wood-materials is the saw blade and the antichip inserts and edges. (no more scratches on panels)
I can go on and on as to why the Ez Smart (not a guided saw or a GCSS) can outperformed the traditional tools in many applications.
But the more I go, the more people can get upset
with me and my... shameless plug.:rolleyes:


now for me to tell anybody on a public forum that I think a skill saw and a piece of aluminum extrusion is a "better tool" or even a "better way" would flat out be lying on my part! i`ve been a full time,self employed carpenter for quite a while and am pretty familiar with the tools of the trade, and the methods of work employed in both small shops and large production facilities so i feel pretty safe saying that given a choice of a slider or a skillsaw set-up 99.9% of the folks surveyed would opt for the slider to earn their bread-n-butter.

I'm with you about commercial shops and sliders.
The sliders offer greater depth of cut that a commercial shop needs.
I like the Paul's jig for ripping stock safely.
And I like to see this tool further developed to comply 100% with the Dead Wood Concept.

further i felt it was time for somebody to call "bull-hocky" on burts posts, all of them i have read are shameless plugs for your system, never a nice word about sombodies work, never an opinion on such things as finishing or pocket hole jigs or even a pick-up truck for heavens sake!
i hope i have made my position clear? please take no offence dino, i`m sure you make a very good product and should i ever need an aluminum extrusion to guide my skillsaw or router i will give your system an honest look-see, just as i will the other offerings.. 02 tod

I can see where you coming from ,Tod.:cool:

No offence taken.
I just can't speak for Burt.
The ball is on Burt's court now.
Pictures of Burt's wood shop and with the horizontal panel saw
taken apart for the ez system are much needed.:rolleyes:
Thanks Tod.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Where did those donuts get to..............

[Ian Barley]

If somebody is getting doughnuts - I really like the ones with treacle instead of jam.

Oh - and tod - I know that you don't need my support or approval - but you get it anyway.

[Tyler Howell]

I have never seen a topic that brings out such passion:eek: .
Very happy with Festool:cool:

[tod evans]

hold on a second here! now we have a skillsaw riding an aluminum extrusion that has no moving parts and is as accurate as a cnc?

holy bejesus let me whip out my checkbook!

let`s get real here guys, how about taking this system to the nearest cabinet shop, one that cuts out one to four kitchens per week and offer to give them free of charge the whole system if they`ll use it for a month instead of their panelsaw or cnc....just think how much safer/faster and more accurate their whole production line will be?
if they don`t run you off with the biggest stick at hand they`ll be calling the little men in the white coats to take you back to the nice home they think you`ve escaped from.
i`ll even up the ante, if you can film a bonafide cabinetshop agreeing to do this and they actually do after the month adopt the system i`ll pay for the darn thing! only catch being a uninterested creeker must wittness the whole ordeal and report on the forum.
lets play ball fellows??? .02 tod

[Per Swenson]

Tod,

You said, " catch being a uninterested creeker".

That sir is a catch 22.

Pass the donuts.

Per

[tod evans]

Tod,

You said, " catch being a uninterested creeker".

That sir is a catch 22.

Pass the donuts.

Per

per, by "uninterested" i mean somebody who is close but has no vested interest in dinos system...02 tod

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Gentlemen.....the real question in life is....."would you like mustard or value added mayo?":rolleyes: :eek: :D

[Frank Pellow]

If somebody is getting doughnuts - I really like the ones with treacle instead of jam.

Oh - and tod - I know that you don't need my support or approval - but you get it anyway.
I like the ones with jam. And Ian, I like that they are made in England :) -used to buy one at tea time every day at the sandwich shop next to the place I worked. :)

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

hold on a second here! now we have a skillsaw riding an aluminum extrusion that has no moving parts and is as accurate as a cnc?

holy bejesus let me whip out my checkbook!

let`s get real here guys, how about taking this system to the nearest cabinet shop, one that cuts out one to four kitchens per week and offer to give them free of charge the whole system if they`ll use it for a month instead of their panelsaw or cnc....just think how much safer/faster and more accurate their whole production line will be?
if they don`t run you off with the biggest stick at hand they`ll be calling the little men in the white coats to take you back to the nice home they think you`ve escaped from.
i`ll even up the ante, if you can film a bonafide cabinetshop agreeing to do this and they actually do after the month adopt the system i`ll pay for the darn thing! only catch being a uninterested creeker must wittness the whole ordeal and report on the forum.
lets play ball fellows??? .02 tod

I have a GCSS, the Festool, as I said before, the EZ looks good too, but I wanted the Festool TS55 as well, so I went that way. For me, at a busy hobby level, for cutting up sheetgoods the GCSS rocks!

For a full on cab shop, I can see it having a niche to fill but to "Replace" the sliders....?


ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.......Oh man, I'm not laughing at the GCSS or your guys, just the thought....

I've seen and used sliders that are darn near older than me, they will be going for many many years yet, with the riving knife set ups they make cuts better than factory cuts (I guess that is the next place that we will see the GCSS take over eh, the plywood factories ;) :D)

Come on, in all seriousness, why do you guys pick these fights?

The original post was which GCSS was better, or would fit a certain application better, but then we get these unreal claims.

It makes me wonder, if Burt has any real time on a real industrial slider, we are not talking about a Ryobi b3000 here.

Fun and interesting read, now where did them donuts go....? :D

[Dino Makropoulos]

What can I say guys?:D

All this people must be dreaming.:confused:
Ths is the latest 10 best from Ebay.

And this guys don't even have the latest "FIRST EVER INVENTIONS" like:
The Cabinet maker-The Smart Repeaters-or even the self aligning square.

1. awesome tool!!!! Don't know how I ever got along without it.


2. As a professional woodworker since 1979 I'm VERY impressed. GREAT PRODUCT
3. Perfect in every way. As described and quickly shipped.
4. This tool is incredible! . . . One of the most used tools in my shop!
5. Perfect cut every time. cabinet installers must have this!
6. The table is better than sliced bread!!!
7. so easy to use. works very good.
8. Great tool, not cheaply made, Heavy Duty, and service
is excellant. Thanks!
9. Item as adverstised, fast shipping ranks FIVE STARS with me *****

10.Very well thought-out tool and precise--check out the router attachment too!!

1. Works as advertised.
2. Comes with 100% satisfaction guarantee. (for any
reason)
3. And even comes with a challenge.

Make sure you don't spill your coffee's now
and don't drop the donuts.:rolleyes:

OK. Let's say that all this guys are like Burt.
What about all this guys?.........

[tod evans]

please don`t sidestep the offer i made! you could "sell" a complete system by only having one cabinet shop agree with some of the claims made. or is it entirely possible that the claims are unfounded? fess-up! the quotes are not from folks using a skillsaw to replace either a cnc or a slider are they? in fact i`m willing to bet that none of the quotes where made by people who own a full fledged cabinet shop where they?

remember i`m not the fellow making outlandish claims, only the one calling them! .02 tod

[Dino Makropoulos]

1. This tool is incredible! . . . One of the most used tools in my shop!
2. Perfect cut every time. cabinet installers must have this!
3. This is an excellent product; as advertised, I love it.
4. The table is better than sliced bread!!!
5. I put it together with a set of $16 folding legs from HD and I LOVE it.
6. so easy to use. works very good.
7. Very well thought-out tool and precise--check out the router
attachment too!!
8. Fantastic Product, just what I've been looking for. fast shipping!
9. Works great!! Easy to deal with!! Would buy from again. Trustworthy!!!
10. Works very good,and safe---Thanks
11. First cut-1/4" plexi, next 3/4" melamine.Results ASTOUNDING ! I'm a
HAPPY camper
12. you guy's are awsome. I've bought two and your service is great
13. The extrusion and clamps alone are worth the price of admission.
Great seller A
13. thankyou works fantastic
15. Better than expected, this tool is the BEST for cabinet work
16. Fantastic product. Easy to use and works great. Thanks so much!
17. Very professional and helpful.Guide and table systems are ingenius!
18. FS GOOD COMMUICATION.. FIXES PROBLEMS EVEN IF THERE YOUR
FAULT ....A+++++
19. ONLY ONE WORD--EXCELLENT----THANK YOU
20. Great products and wonderful service, my best experiance yet!
21. I didn't think it could be as good as you said, but it's even better.
22. Better Late than NEVER! Great product, great support, nice invention!
23. Great person to work with. Thanks very much for
the opportunity to purchase.
24. Thanks for a great product. Everything it was claimed to be,
25. Well worth the money. This will make life easy,
safe and accurate. Buy one now.
26. Better than ------. I have them both. Safer, better built,
cuts on both sides.
27. Nice....High quality product, Thank You!
28. Quick delivery-exactly as described-easy to read instructions
-wiil buy again+++
29. Excellent product, service, delivery
30. Perfect Tool. FAST service. Must have for all.
31. Second order from them, still great quality, you really need one!
32. EVERYTHING YOU SAID IT IS . A REAL WINNER
33. Fast Shipping ! GREAT TOOL !! Impressed All My Neighbors !
That's No Easy Feat !
34. A++ This item does what it claims.
It can make your life so much easier.. A++
35. That's the quickest and accurate slicing i've ever done.
Thanks, great tool.
36. Where have you been for the 10 years? Excellant Item!
Great Buy, Fast Ship!
37. well thought out product you can do so much with this product
38. what can I say that already hasn't been said
it's a 12 on a scale of 10
39. A woodworkers dream, I recommend the table also. Thanks Dino
40. Rapide. Bonne continuation
41. Item exactly as described, A+ condition, prompt reply and shipment
42 Fantastic bunch of guys, Great product, very helpful and honest!!
43. You'll love his Guide System! You'll appreciate his service.
First-rate!!
44. Super product, amazing service, he even called me to help
45. Great product, no more fighting big sheets of ply-quick ship,
great communication
46. Dino-well made tool-thanks 4 a great design-quick
shipping/great price/great guy
47. Excellent service and wonderful product.
48. Fantastic device. This is a MUST have tool.
Far superior to a panel saw. Thanks
49. This is an awesome addition to my professional arsenal.
Thanks Dino!!!!!!
50. Verfy Impressed with Quality.. Great Product
51 WOW - amazing product, excellent service - JOIN THE CULT!
Reply by eurekazone: Please..NO CULT. Smart and free thinking people
Eurekazonians) need no CULT.
52. Been loving the guide and now have the SmartTable -
brilliant system, Thanks!!!
53. Man, this is a great product for cutting large sheets of plywood.
Thanks Dino.
54. Works like a charm! Thanks!!!!!!
55. IT WAS WHAT YOU SAID. THANK FOR FAST DELIVERY.
56 Innovative product, smooth transaction. Thanks!
57. saw guide works very good,used for concrete decorative cuts

Feedback Score: 539
Positive Feedback: 100%

Members who left a positive: 539
Members who left a negative: 0

All positive feedback received: 642

Do we need more?

I have to go now.
We have to ship 200 "systems" to EU - AU and Canada today.
To another 200 "openminded and smart" people.:cool:

Thanks Guys.
YCf Dino

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

To another 200 "openminded and smart" people.:cool:

Thanks Guys.
YCf Dino

So I guess that makes everyone not drinking your Kool aid "Closeminded and Stupid" ...............?

Nice Dino, real nice........... :rolleyes:

[Ian Barley]

Dino - stop it. This is not the place for you to sell your products. You have your own forum for that purpose. Anybody who wants to get information directly and without any filtering from Dino can go there. Here is the link that will take you there. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=26

There are a few of us who tried to answer Jamies question as well as we could based on the information that we had. Two of my posts strongly indicated to him that he might find your system to represent the best value. And I would not buy your system myself simply because of the opinion that your posts here have engendered in me.

Tod is a professional who is making a living doing this. So am I. I use a GCSS in the very specific circumstances where it is the best tool to achieve the outcome I am seeking. To pretend that it is the answer to every question that we face in our workshops is churlish.

[tod evans]

We have to ship 200 "systems" to EU - AU and Canada today.
To another 200 "openminded and smart" people.:cool:

Thanks Guys.
YCf Dino

now i`m "closeminded and stupid"? ooooooookay, from ridiculous claims to insults? nice marketing ploy. .02 tod

[Ken Fitzgerald]

"Mustard or value added mayo?":rolleyes:

[Dino Makropoulos]

please don`t sidestep the offer i made! you could "sell" a complete system by only having one cabinet shop agree with some of the claims made. or is it entirely possible that the claims are unfounded? fess-up! the quotes are not from folks using a skillsaw to replace either a cnc or a slider are they? in fact i`m willing to bet that none of the quotes where made by people who own a full fledged cabinet shop where they?

remember i`m not the fellow making outlandish claims, only the one calling them! .02 tod

Tod.
We offer a challenge to those who don't believe our claims.
How can anyone say that our claims are OUTLANDISH and don't take the challenge?

OK. What we have here?:confused:
I don't believe it.
I don't want anyone else to believe it.
Your claims are false.
All your feedback's are fake.
Burt is Dino. Dino is Burt.

I think I have all the right to say what I say.
You have the right to say what you think.
But you don't have the right to say this:

in fact i `m willing to bet that none of the quotes where made by people who own a full fledged cabinet shop where they?

Over 100 full fledged cabinet shops so far.
Do you like to bet? :D

The only way to make a believer out of you,
is for you to take the challenge.
Take it and you don't have to bet nothing.;)

[Dino Makropoulos]

So I guess that makes everyone not drinking your Kool aid "Closeminded and Stupid" ...............?

Nice Dino, real nice........... :rolleyes:

Stu.
You can't wait to kill the messenger.:rolleyes:

Nice try.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino - stop it. This is not the place for you to sell your products. You have your own forum for that purpose. Anybody who wants to get information directly and without any filtering from Dino can go there. Here is the link that will take you there. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=26

There are a few of us who tried to answer Jamies question as well as we could based on the information that we had. Two of my posts strongly indicated to him that he might find your system to represent the best value. And I would not buy your system myself simply because of the opinion that your posts here have engendered in me.

Tod is a professional who is making a living doing this. So am I. I use a GCSS in the very specific circumstances where it is the best tool to achieve the outcome I am seeking. To pretend that it is the answer to every question that we face in our workshops is churlish.

Ian. I don't stop here to sell my product.

I use a GCSS in the very specific circumstances where it is the best tool to achieve the outcome I am seeking. To pretend that it is the answer to every question that we face in our workshops is churlish

I stop here to defend one of my friends, my product and to tell you that you're wrong about comparing the ez smart with your GCSS. NOT THE SAME ANIMAL.

[Shelley Bolster]

I have been following this thread and honestly, I have to tell you that in my opinion, Burt does more damage to EZ system than good Dino. To suggest the a guided rail system is better than a slider, in my opinion, just under-minds any credibility you might have once had. Personally, I think the claims are ridiculous and the two should not even be compared. Your Toyota Tacoma, although a wonderful truck - less expensive and certainly more fuel efficient than my Ford F350 V10......just ain't going to preform in most areas where I want a truck to preform. And Dino - Toyota does not embarrass itself my claiming it will. They market their trucks to the appropriate consumer and do not put down the "Big Boys" in the process.

After reading the list of remarks praising your product (and rightfully so).......I just don't see anyone that said it preforms better than their slider........this is why this argument started. The comparison was made first by Burt........


I can agree with you that traditional wisdom says that the slider or vertical system would be faster but after experiencing the EZ Smart with the repeaters, I have to say that you are incorrect. I've had both a slider and a vertical panel saw in my shop and the EZ is faster than either. Also the EZ is also more accurate. As for repeat cuts, you can't beat the repeaters.

..........perhaps he is not a smart as you are telling us all he is??

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Stu.
You can't wait to kill the messenger.:rolleyes:

Nice try.

Dino, you are a laugh a minute, keep it up :D

I thought you had some units to ship.....? or did you just ask Burt to do that for you? :D

have a nice day, continued success!

[tod evans]

jamie, my appoligies for derailing your thread! it has been very enlightening for me and apparently a few others.....02 tod

[Ian Barley]

Ian. I don't stop here to sell my product....

So presumably the posting of 67 positive statements about your product was intended to put everybody off?

[Dino Makropoulos]

now i`m "closeminded and stupid"? ooooooookay, from ridiculous claims to insults? nice marketing ploy. .02 tod

If I call someone openminded and smart, is that make all others stupid?:confused:

Do you like me to call all the ez smart buyers-users stupid?

I can see where this "debate" is going.

[Dino Makropoulos]

So presumably the posting of 67 positive statements about your product was intended to put everybody off?

No Ian. Was to defend my product from misinformation.

[Dino Makropoulos]

now i`m "closeminded and stupid"? ooooooookay, from ridiculous claims to insults? nice marketing ploy. .02 tod


Talk to Stu about this.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

If I call someone openminded and smart, is that make all others stupid?:confused:

Do you like me to call all the ez smart buyers-users stupid?

I can see where this "debate" is going.

Why all the labels Dino?

Why must you always do this?

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" :D

[Shelley Bolster]

That was has me confused - defending from what? I must have missed it but I did not read anywhere where your product was put down or said it did not preform well.......only that that it shouldn't be compared in speed and accuracy to a slider.

The comparison should never have been made Dino.....that is why this thread went in the wrong direction. Now, if you are going to continue to go along with Burt's claims, then you perhaps need to find actual production cabinet shops that got rid of their sliders to substantiate your or Burt's claims that they are indeed a better way to go.........they may be an alternative for many but the claim is that there are in fact superior.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

No Ian. Was to defend my product from misinformation.

You sir, are totally incorrect.

Your product was not slandered in any way shape or form, in fact many people, including myself, state that we think it is fine tool, but many people, including myself, think that the statements made by this Burt fellow do not hold water, and said so.

You do not have to defend your fine product, but your reputation in another matter entirely.

Good Day

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

That was has me confused - defending from what? I must have missed it but I did not read anywhere where your product was put down or said it did not preform well.......only that that it shouldn't be compared in speed and accuracy to a slider.

The comparison should never have been made Dino.....that is why this thread went in the wrong direction. Now, if you are going to continue to go along with Burt's claims, then you perhaps need to find actual production cabinet shops that got rid of their sliders to substantiate your or Burt's claims that they are indeed a better way to go.........they may be an alternative for many but the claim is that there are in fact superior.

Shelley beat me to it by one minute ;) :D

[Dino Makropoulos]

Why all the labels Dino?

Why must you always do this?

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" :D

Stu.
You know very well who's using labels here.
Remember the ..."JIG''? :rolleyes:

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Stu.
You know very well who's using labels here.
Remember the ..."JIG''? :rolleyes:

Well I'm not, or at least I'm trying not to.

No, I do not remember the "Jig" but I wonder even if I were to remember it, if you your recollection and mine would be the same? :D

Cheers!

[Dino Makropoulos]

, think that the statements made by this Burt fellow do not hold water, and said so.

You do not have to defend your fine product, but your reputation in another matter entirely.

Good Day

Personal attacks again and again.
Nothing to do with tools.

I think Burt was very clear why the ez smart
"outperforms" a slider on sheet goods.

My reputation?

If I agree with you that we don't have the right or the brains to think of a better way,
then...I have no reputation.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Now that you have changed the subject and lead the discussion away from the central topic.......

Got anything else you would like to unload on us?

:D

Have a great Day Dino, and much continued success with your business, and I mean that!

[Dino Makropoulos]

That was has me confused - defending from what? I must have missed it but I did not read anywhere where your product was put down or said it did not preform well.......only that that it shouldn't be compared in speed and accuracy to a slider.

The comparison should never have been made Dino.....that is why this thread went in the wrong direction. Now, if you are going to continue to go along with Burt's claims, then you perhaps need to find actual production cabinet shops that got rid of their sliders to substantiate your or Burt's claims that they are indeed a better way to go.........they may be an alternative for many but the claim is that there are in fact superior.

Shelley.
My product was put down many times in this thread.
Do you like to see a list?
About Burt's claims. Not accurate enough.
He don't display any timing.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks........Let's let it go! Enough.......Insults........Product advertisement....No good is resulting from this..........Let it go......

[tod evans]

i`d like to clarify something here and now! i never "put down" dinos system. period!
what i did do was state that the claim that a skillsaw could out perform either a cnc router or a sliding table tablesaw is total and utter bull.

in fact i offered to pay for one of these systems if a bonafide cabinet shop who owns cnc routers or panel processing equipment of the sliding table variety would adopt the system in lieu of their current techniques and agree after a month that this system could indeed out perform the industry standards.

it will not happen! not in the real world where time is money and folks need to get quality work out the door.

why is it so dificult to accept the fact that after all is said and done we are talking about an aluminum extrusion and a skillsaw or router? maybe there is a reason this system is marketed on the digital flea-market and not in bonafide industrial equipment dealers showrooms.....02 tod

[Burt Waddell]

[quote=tod evans]dino, i have this issue with honesty, when somebody posts that they have torn down their horizontal panel saw (read slider)

[quote burt ]"I'm a full-time woodworker and do more kitchens than anything else. I discovered the EZ Smart system a few months ago and have been very happy with it, In fact, I just took my horizontal panel saw apart and converted the table into a cutting table to use with the EZ Smart Cabinet Maker." [end quote]


Tod,

I have issues with honesty also. I don't appreciate comments in this thread that say I am less than honest. I always tell the truth.

Specifically, the horizontal panel saw was made using "Saw trax" brand equipment. I will show you before and after photos later today. I can't help it you read between lines and thought it was a slider.

Someone asked about the Vertical panel saw. I can't remember the brand for sure, but I believe it was a Milwaukee. I don't think that I have a photo of it. If I do it is not digetal.

I'd like to add one more comment. A lot of you are saying what I said isn't accurate. I'M STILL WAITING TO HEAR THAT FROM SOMEONE THAT HAS ACTUALLY USED AN EZ CABINET MAKER.

Burt


Also along the way I had a Delta Unisaw equipped with a 50" Excaliber sliding table.

[Ken Salisbury]

http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/redflag.jpg

This thread has gotten totally out of hand. We all should stick to answering the questions asked by the thread starter and not wander off topic and generate controversy. Personnally I am embarassed at some of the attacks and counter atttacks in this thread. Those offenders should revisit the Terms of Service:

2. Disagreements, Flaming, and Personal or Professional Attacks
Disagreements are almost certain to occur. Members shall be respectful of dissenting opinions and refrain from name-calling, personal or professional attacks. Messages that contain critical content must provide all factual information pertinent to the problem and enough data to support any claims or complaints.

Lets regroup and act like ladies and gentlemen.

I have closed this thread to further postings.




http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif

[Keith Outten]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This is a respectable establishment, if you must Brawl please take it outside.

The last thread, that was mentioned in an earlier post, got way out of hand. This thread is headed in the same direction. If we must close threads, then start removing them due to personallity conflicts then a better choice may be to start deleting Members.

Wisdom and maturity dictate that people will have opposing opinions...learn to accept this as a fact of life and quit bickering.

No matter who is right or wrong you will not make derogatory remarks against any Member of SawMill Creek here in our Forums.