Hinge Knuckle

[Byron Trantham]

I want to install a piano hinge on a bar gate. You know, you lift part of the bar top to walk through to the other side. My question is how far above the surface does the knuckle go to allow for the top to fold all the way open? My inclination is to lay the gate on top of the counter where it will rest when opened all the way and then attach the hinge. I am so spatially challenged that I am not sure this is correct. If I screw up (so to speak) I won't be able re-drill the holes. Thanks.

[Chris Barton]

The pin inside the hinge should be flush with the top, that is the pivot point and by placing it there is will open and lay flat against the other side of the top.

[Randy Meijer]

This is probably a little picky; but actually, the "center" of the pin should be flush with top surface of the bar. Rather than trying to locate the hinge by measuring, you might just want to lay the gate on the bar in the open position, tape glue or clamp the hinge in position and then drill the necessary pilot holes. If you are not real confident in your ability to drill the holes accurately, place a thin sheet of spacer material between the bar and the gate(the thickness of a playing card or two) befor drilling. This will cause the hinge to stick up just the thickness of the spacer material when the gate is closed; but will minimize the possibility the hinge is installed "short" causing the gate to not fully open.

Oops. After posting, I went back and reread your message and see that what you propose is exactly correct. If installed perfectly, the hinge will stick up just a hair from the top surface of the bar when in the closed position. By using the spacer trick mentioned above the hinge will stick up an additional "hair" but you won't have to worry about comming up short. If you don't have one, I would get a hinge center punch or a centering bit to be sure the pilot holes for the screws are centered in the hinge holes. It's important to get that right or you could have a problem. Both are available from www dot leevalley.com among places.

[Byron Trantham]

This is probably a little picky; but actually, the "center" of the pin should be flush with top surface of the bar. Rather than trying to locate the hinge by measuring, you might just want to lay the gate on the bar in the open position, tape glue or clamp the hinge in position and then drill the necessary pilot holes. If you are not real confident in your ability to drill the holes accurately, place a thin sheet of spacer material between the bar and the gate(the thickness of a playing card or two) befor drilling. This will cause the hinge to stick up just the thickness of the spacer material when the gate is closed; but will minimize the possibility the hinge is installed "short" causing the gate to not fully open.

Randy, this is what I tought. I just didn't want the hinge above the surface but opening it all the way is a higher priority. Thanks.

[Randy Meijer]

Byron; I was thinking about alternatives for a less visible hinge; but since you mentioned the piano hinge specifically, I figured that I would only address that probem.

There are a few ways that come to mind that you could make the hinge line almost invisible. All of them would take more work than a simple piano hinge and some might not be quite so convenient to use. If you are interested in exploring that option let us know and I'm sure others here will offer some good ideas. Is this for a home bar that won't see a lot of use or for a commercial application that will see a lot of traffic. Just off hand, I can think of more ways to do this if the gate swings down rather than up. Is that an option or not??

[Chris Barton]

Using these would make them invisible except when open...

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/hardware/hinges/00h3510s1.jpg

[Randy Meijer]

Chris: Those barrel hinges were exactly what I was thinking about after running through the Lee Valley catalog. But I have never used them and don't know how they would work. The geometry would be totally different from their nornal application as door hinges and I wasn't sure they would work properly in this particular application. If there is any play in the hinges, there could possibly be a step at the bar/gate joint that would be unacceptable??

[Chris Barton]

These hinges tend to be very precise. I don't think play would be a problem but, mounting them might be an adventure...

[Frank Chaffee]

I would be concerned that the barrel hinges shown would catch on persons going thru the gate.
Frank

[Randy Meijer]

I would be concerned that the barrel hinges shown would catch on persons going thru the gate.
Frank

It wouldn't be any trouble to to cover the hinges with a nice strip of synthetic leather to protect from snaglng.

[Frank Chaffee]

It wouldn't be any trouble to to cover the hinges with a nice strip of synthetic leather to protect from snaglng.
Great solution, Randy!
Frank

[Doug Shepard]

These hinges tend to be very precise. I don't think play would be a problem but, mounting them might be an adventure...

Dowel Centers after drilling the holes for one side would probably work to make sure the holes line up on each side? I was thinking about the barrel hinges too, but then wondered if SOSS hinges might work a bit better for this. They're a bit beefier and might hold up to the weight and constant use better ?

[Jamie Buxton]

There are hinges intended to do exactly what you want: fit flush, but allow 180 degree opening. http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&cat=3,41241,41261,40208&p=40208 is an example of a small one, but I've seen bigger ones someplace.

[Chris Barton]

There are hinges intended to do exactly what you want: fit flush, but allow 180 degree opening. http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&cat=3,41241,41261,40208&p=40208 is an example of a small one, but I've seen bigger ones someplace.

While LV calls them card table hinges they are really Butler's Table hinges. Card table hinges look very different. However, they would work well.

[Randy Meijer]

While LV calls them card table hinges they are really Butler's Table hinges. Card table hinges look very different. However, they would work well.

???????
Chris: Could you post a picture of what you believe to be a card table hinge?? Lee Valley also sells a hinge that they call a butler's table hinge that looks like this:

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/hardware/hinges/00w2101g1.jpg

I don't think a butler's tray hinge has 180° of motion??

[Chris Barton]

Randy,

Here is a picture from Horton Brasses (who I use most often). The hinge on the left side is a card table hinge and the 2 on the right are buttler's table hinges.

http://www.horton-brasses.com/images/products/large/15_H53.jpg (http://www.horton-brasses.com/products/hinges/specialtyhinges/45)

[Byron Trantham]

There are hinges intended to do exactly what you want: fit flush, but allow 180 degree opening. http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&cat=3,41241,41261,40208&p=40208 is an example of a small one, but I've seen bigger ones someplace.
Jamie, GREAT hinges! They are a bit too fancy for this application AND the customer specifically told me no brass - they like black chrome brushed stainless etc.

Thanks for the reminder of the butler table hinges

[Jamie Buxton]

Jamie, GREAT hinges! They are a bit too fancy for this application AND the customer specifically told me no brass - they like black chrome brushed stainless etc.

Thanks for the reminder of the butler table hinges


I believe I've seen chrome ones which are larger. I just can't remember where.

My understanding of the name is that butlers hinges open to 180 degrees, and have a stop at 90 degrees. They're used to build those tables whose edge folds up to become a side. The ones which fold flat (0 degrees) are called card table hinges or sewing hinges -- I think. However, name aside, the function you need is clear: a hinge with a flush top.

[Jamie Buxton]

Y'know, there may be a different solution...

Use a hinge with a flush top, so the bar top has nothing sticking up. Then find a way to support the gate in its open position without folding it all the way back on to the bar. For instance, perhaps you could use those gas struts which hold up the rear hatch on cars; the struts would be hidden inside the bar. Another idea would be to use a lid support intended to hold up the lid on blanket and toy chests. Or perhaps a counterbalance hidden inside the bar would do the trick. In any case, the gate's open position would be near-vertical. That would actually be nicer than folding it all the way flat, where it would be trying to smash your fingers or anything else it found on top of the bar.

Added in edit... One good thing about this approach is that you can use ordinary door hinges and mount them flush. They can't open 180 degrees if you mount them flush, but they can open 90 degrees.

[Randy Meijer]

Randy,

Here is a picture from Horton Brasses (who I use most often). The hinge on the left side is a card table hinge and the 2 on the right are buttler's table hinges.

Thanks Chris. The butlers hinges look just like the ones @ Lee Valley. The reason their card table hinges look different from the ones you showed is because the LV units mount on the surface of the table(actually inlet) while the CTH you pictured attaches to the edge of the edge of the table.

[Randy Meijer]

.....My understanding of the name is that butlers hinges open to 180 degrees, and have a stop at 90 degrees......

I believe they only have about 90° of movement.

[Jamie Buxton]

I believe they only have about 90° of movement.

:) Yes, that's actually what I said. We're stumbling over our terminology here. I was thinking about it this way... The leaves create an angle. In what I think of as butlers hinge, the leaves can have an angle of 180 degrees between them, or can have an angle of 90 degrees between them. That's the 90 degrees of movement you've mentioned. What they don't do is fold flat to 0 degrees, which is what the original poster requested. Of course, as I noted in an earlier post, while the function of this kind of hinge seems clear, the name seems to be less clear.

[Chris Barton]

Thanks Chris. The butlers hinges look just like the ones @ Lee Valley. The reason their card table hinges look different from the ones you showed is because the LV units mount on the surface of the table(actually inlet) while the CTH you pictured attaches to the edge of the edge of the table.

Hi Randy,

Not to get into a semantics debate here but, the common terminology of a card table hinge came from their use in card tables from the 17th century. I am making one of these now. For most folks familar with this history the term "card table hinge" is always like the one I describe in the picture about. The others will work just fine though.

[Randy Meijer]

Chris: I don't know the first thing about it......just trying to learn what I can?? Maybe it is a Canadian thing since it is the Lee Valley terminology that seems to be in question??:D

[Bob Swenson]

Byron
We like to have the bar gate fold down, it’s much safer and it doesn’t take up any room on the top of the bar. Besides gravity, alcohol and fingers are a bad
combination.




Bob

[Randy Meijer]

Bob: That thought came to me too as being a much better solution to the gate problem; but I did not mention it because I could not envision a "simple" (one-handed) way to latch the gate in place. Do you have a simple solution for that problem or does it requie a some fancy/complicated hardware??

[Per Swenson]

Randy,

That drop down is installed with a simlpe piano hinge,

although it is solid brass rather then the cheap plated variety

from china. On the latch side that is just as simple. It is a solid brass

cupboard latch. Snaps closed. For added saftey I installed a solid brass

barrel bolt under the bar rail. You know, for the leaners.

If possible use nothing but solid brass as any bar cleaning regimen

will eventually ruin the plated stuff.

Per

[Bob Swenson]

Per spells better:cool: