Norm vs David Marks

[Michael Gibbons]

I haven't seen too much in the way of bashing David Marks for having every power tool known to man like Norm does. What gives? Also, Am I wondering why is everyone so preoccupied with placement of tools in a shop? Isn't woodworking supposed to be a laid back,relaxing hobby?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Why bash either one?...........they are both great in their own realms. .....I think each has a different niche ..........

[Don Baer]

Also, Am I wondering why is everyone so preoccupied with placement of tools in a shop? Isn't woodworking supposed to be a laid back,relaxing hobby?

I personaly find that proper tools placement makes the work flow better and therefore less frustrating to do the work. Therefore amking the hobbie more enjoyable and laid back.

[Mark Patoka]

Norm probably gets most of the bashing only because there isn't a woodworker alive today who doesn't know who he is. After 18 years of being on most public TV stations, TOH, etc. we've all seen his shop grow with the help of corporate sponsorship. OTOH, David Marks has only been around for a few seasons and only on DIY which is only available on Dish Network and the extra $$$ package at that so very few people have seen his show. Thus Norm = easy target. And yes I would like to have some of the larger tools that he does have that many of us garage shop folks can only dream of. Many people cite Norm as their inspiration for getting more involved into woodworking and as result it seems there are many more tool choices available than when I first started woodworking.

You can sometimes compare this to the early personal computer days. How many different operating systems did we have? That little darling Microsoft came along and started getting established as the OS of choice, good or bad. How many people were complaining when their stock went public and created many $$$ for the shareholders over the years? How much bashing does Microsoft take now that they are the dominant giant but at the same time helped shape the computer industry of today?


Just my thoughts.

[Larry James]

I haven't seen too much in the way of bashing David Marks for having every power tool known to man like Norm does.

Think about it - could the plaid shirt be a clue?

[Keel McDonald]

Not bashing either of them, but I do much prefer to watch Norm for a couple of reasons. First of all, I really like the projects that Norm builds. That's just my personal taste. I could see most of the items that Norm has built fitting in somewhere in my home. I enjoy watching David Marks because of the techniques he uses. I personally don't care for the types of things he builds. I also like Norm because he not only builds nice projects using a variety of tools, but he also suggests alternate ways to get the same result if you don't happen to have your own corporate sponsorship (and I don't).

[Peter Dougenik]

One major difference is that WoodWorks was filmed (they are not making any more episodes of the show) in David's own workshop with him using his own tools, where as NYW is filmed in the producers shop using tools dropped off by the show sponsors. Most of Davids tools were bought used the same way any of us can buy em for a bargain if we hunt around enough; but last time I looked on my front stoop Delta hadn't left me one of every top end tool in their lineup :eek:. My major gripe with ol Nahmie is that he's constantly firing off brads into things that would be just fine if left in clamps for a few hours...why poke holes in your project if you don't have to :confused:

Dave Marks is a furniture maker and Norm is more of a finish carpenter making furniture and it comes across in their methods of doing things. I personally watch both so I can get different viewpoints on things.

[Tim Burke]

My only (minor) issue with Norm is that some of his tools are so ridiculously overkill for the task at hand, or that an average woodworker would have. Examples - the massive industrial size drum sander, pocket screw tool, and molding tool that uses expensive custom blades. His projects are nice, but nothing that requires anything other than the average tools he used in his early shows. I'm sure he gets the tools for free, but I still would like to see work him with everyday tools.

That aside, I think he is an excellent host for this type of show.

As mentioned earlier, Marks' projects aren't exactly my taste, but I thought he did a great job of demonstrating techniques. I was sorry to see him taken off the air.

Tim

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Norm? Norm who?

[Randy Denby]

Woodworks has been taken off the air? Dingdangit!!! Why? I can no longer get NYW since I've got satellite, now no mo woodworks.....I am so depressed.

[Rich Person]

I prefer David because he is more of an artist. His use and understanding of art deco design and veneers is right up my alley. He also builds smaller accent pieces like I aspire to do. As was said above, he has some nice tools, but all are just what he has in his shop, with no endorsements.

The only gripe I have with David is his use of the multi-router. That is the one thing he has in his shop that I will likely never purchase. I would like to see him do more mortising with a router and/or table.

[Michael Ballent]

According to my TiVo its on only Saturday Mornings.... You should be seeing Norm on your PBS affiliate.


Woodworks has been taken off the air? Dingdangit!!! Why? I can no longer get NYW since I've got satellite, now no mo woodworks.....I am so depressed.

[Tim Burke]

Woodworks has been taken off the air? Dingdangit!!! Why? I can no longer get NYW since I've got satellite, now no mo woodworks.....I am so depressed.

I could only get David on HGTV up to about a year or so ago. After that I couldn't get it even on premium cable. The last I knew it was only on the highest priced satellite package.

[Randy Denby]

Since I live approximately a hundred miles from Dallas, it seems I'm too far to have the PBS station considered as a local affiliate. So, since they dont broadcast NYW on the regular national PBS on the satellite, I'm out of luck.I think I'm gonna go kick my dog.........

[Andy Hoyt]

I gave up watching tv about a year ago - addictive time sink (SMC is my new one) - and one comforting notion at the time was that while Norm's shop is impressive and inspirational and his projects were mostly attractive, he always built them the same way. And that had gotten boring.

Plus, I hated that he was being positioned as a Master Woodworker by the marketing gurus; and as we all know he's really a carpenter (albeit a good one), and I've never heard of anyone else referred to as a Master Woodworker.

Never seen David's show.

[Randy Denby]

Andy, I too gave up watching much tv along time ago. I believe when they took Tim the Tool Man Taylor off is about the time I quit watching much. But, I do like to watch the woodworking shows . I'm pretty much down to Freeform furniture and Homemade instruments..or something like that. The freeform furniture pretty much has little interest over and above the cute gal :p

[Jim Davenport]

I prefer David because he is more of an artist. His use and understanding of art deco design and veneers is right up my alley. He also builds smaller accent pieces like I aspire to do. As was said above, he has some nice tools, but all are just what he has in his shop, with no endorsements.

The only gripe I have with David is his use of the multi-router. That is the one thing he has in his shop that I will likely never purchase. I would like to see him do more mortising with a router and/or table.
I watched a tour of his shop the other day, and was suprised to see a Delta benchtop mortiser. All I've ever see him use is the multi router, and loose tenons.
But I love his work. he uses beautiful woods that complement each other. Some of his designs are a little out there for me, but I marvel at his craftsmanship. He does a lot better job with finishes than "His Normness" I hate to see a beautiful project finished with a couple of coats of polyurathane.
Over the years SWMBO has come to hate Norm, I watched him work, and decided I needed that tool. David on the other hand has tools appear well used. Notice He doesn't have a wall full of new Bessey clamps, just "Pony pipe clamps" and other well worn clamps like most of us. He has well worn homemade fences, tables, and jigs on his tools. Most of his large tools, he bought used and refurbished.
I sure hope he comes to an agreement with DIY.

[Scott Vigder]

Norm is more of an everyman's carpenter building things we all need and use in our homes: tables, chairs, bookcases, and then two weeks ago he built a shed that could pass as a house! Davis is more of an artist with his delicate guilded finsihes and bent laminate tables. David's website has some pics of absolutely beautiful work. He's won numerous awards for furniture design.
I tend to try and build like Norm, while remembering what David has to offer to spice up a design or two. BTW, I noticed Norm's power tools have the makers name removed or covered up lately. Is this new?

[Kent Fitzgerald]

Norm? Norm who?
You know, the guy on Cheers.

[Barry O'Mahony]

Dave Marks is a furniture maker and Norm is more of a finish carpenter making furniture and it comes across in their methods of doing things.I think you have that exactly right. I bet even Norm would agree with this.

As an example, finish carpenters use brad nailers all the time (you can't clamp trim in place, in most cases). You see in Norm's approach to furniture building.

[Kent Fitzgerald]

BTW, I noticed Norm's power tools have the makers name removed or covered up lately. Is this new?
They've been doing the black-tape disguise as long as I can remember. I think it's so they can continue to re-run old episodes even if the show's sponsorship changes.

[Lee DeRaud]

They've been doing the black-tape disguise as long as I can remember. I think it's so they can continue to re-run old episodes even if the show's sponsorship changes.Goes back to the days when dinosaurs walked the earth and PBS was "non-commercial".

[Doug Shepard]

Are we having this discussion again?
I bash em both equally.
David because he can't pronounce Forstner (Fahstner according to him).
Norm because the plaid is just getting stale.
Other than that they both seem like pretty decent folks.

[Michael Ballent]

I tend to try and build like Norm, while remembering what David has to offer to spice up a design or two. BTW, I noticed Norm's power tools have the makers name removed or covered up lately. Is this new?

It's been PBS policy not to show the manufactures name for the tools they are using... but just about any tool nut can recognize the red Bessey clamps, the and the Delta/PC gray along with Makita blue :)

[Todd Davidson]

2 to 1 that David KOs Norm by the third round.

[Sam Chambers]

Norm probably gets most of the bashing only because there isn't a woodworker alive today who doesn't know who he is. After 18 years of being on most public TV stations, TOH, etc. we've all seen his shop grow with the help of corporate sponsorship. OTOH, David Marks has only been around for a few seasons and only on DIY which is only available on Dish Network and the extra $$$ package at that so very few people have seen his show. Thus Norm = easy target. And yes I would like to have some of the larger tools that he does have that many of us garage shop folks can only dream of. Many people cite Norm as their inspiration for getting more involved into woodworking and as result it seems there are many more tool choices available than when I first started woodworking.

FWIW, DIY is not exclusive to Dish Network. I get it on DirecTV, and it's also offered on digital cable in my area. Other than that, I agree with your take, Mark. I happened across a very early episode of NYW many years ago, (when Norm still had a Shopsmith!), and I was hooked. He's a better "teacher" than David Marks, IMHO. Marks is certainly more of an "artist", though most of his stuff just isn't my taste. And while I've learned from watching his techniques, I've learned more from Norm.

[Matt Meiser]

I agree with many above. Norm makes practical projects that I could frequently see myself copying one day (already have twice.) I've learned a ton of techniques including veneering, template routing (though that one ended me up in the ER and off work for over a week the first time), panel glueups, generally that glue makes a strong joint that frequently doesn't need nails or screws, etc. I could go on and on. I did kind of copy one of his projects, but modified it for my purpose.

Maybe they should collaborate on a show?

[Rich Person]

2 to 1 that David KOs Norm by the third round.

I don't know about that one. David looks like a pretty small guy. His six foot display stand towered over him. David gets my design award, but my money is on Norm in the ring.

[Randy Denby]

I think we should get the girl on Freeform Furniture (Amy?)...and turn it into a mud wrestling match.:cool:

[Ken Shoemaker]

I gotta tell you, I'm a bit embarrassed.

I'd hate for either of these talented men see this thread. I may only speak only for myself when I say would be honored to shake either of their hands and congratulated them on the their many accomplishments.

I've spent years "learning" from Norm and only months from David but I've gained far more than I can ever pay either of them back. Inspiration is a wonderful thing.

Let's let it go ........................

[Mac McAtee]

Well, just DANG!

So a month ago I break down and have the cable company go all the way, so I can get DIY. Now you tell me they have kicked David over the rail?!!!!!!!

Norm vs. David. Norm makes things that everyone can build, if you want to. Even if he uses that hog of a surface sander, Joe Schmuck can figure a way to do that with his Craftsman belt sander. David, weeellllll, he is California style. Nothing wrong with that but I go with more tradtional stuff. David has some interesting techniques and ways of putting things together, I go with what Keel posted above.

Both are good for the craft. I really get off on the Master Woodworker thing, wondering just who gave Norm his certification. If Norm is a Master then my good old father, Tink, was a Grand Master and no doubt is building stuff for the angels as I type.

[Lee DeRaud]

I don't know about that one. David looks like a pretty small guy. His six foot display stand towered over him. David gets my design award, but my money is on Norm in the ring.I'll take some of that action. It may be an urban legend, but I seems to recall hearing somewhere that David is an ex-Marine...and at least 10 years younger than Norm.:cool:

[Wes Bischel]

Well, I've been saving this one for a good Norm thread, so this is as good as any. I will state that I like what Norm does, as with most DIY shows his has a place in the WW community. So no disrespect intended, I just thought this was a funny quote.

Set-up - on the show "House" (If you haven't seen the show, it won't quite have the same impact.) Dr. House is at home with a friend (only friend) and they are scanning through his Tivo list (I think it was Tivo). The friend asks “Why do you have a subscription to The New Yankee Workshop?” To which House responds “A moron working with power tools – how much more suspense can you get!” Needless to say, that one had me going for quite some time!:D

Sorry Norm, no disrespect meant, but it was funny - I guess you had to be there with a warped sense of humor.:rolleyes: :D

Wes

[Mike Cutler]

I don't know why anyone would bash either of them. I've met David Marks, and he seemed like a really nice person,nothing to bash. I'm probably the only woodworker in America that has never seen Norm on TV, because I don't have one, but they have both worked hard for the succes that they have obtained.

My personal favorite though, is our own John Lucas. I've met him also. Very generous person with his knowledge and his time. I think he has the best DIY, how too, tool review, woodworking site on the internet.

[Frank Chaffee]

I gotta tell you, I'm a bit embarrassed.

I'd hate for either of these talented men see this thread. I may only speak only for myself when I say would be honored to shake either of their hands and congratulated them on the their many accomplishments.

I've spent years "learning" from Norm and only months from David but I've gained far more than I can ever pay either of them back. Inspiration is a wonderful thing.

Let's let it go ........................
I am very much with Ken Shoemaker in being embarrassed should either of these great men, who share and impart their knowledge and experience with us and to us, see this thread.

There is so much to learn.
There are so many ways to create beautifully in wood.
There are just enough teachers, for those willing to listen.

Frank

[Randy Denby]

Bashing? I dont see it. I see alot of people only talking about the differences...but no one has bashed anyone.These are men very good and talented at woodworking and seem to be great guys, but not gods. I'd wager there are plenty on this board, just as good if not better at their craft..be it attorney, doctor, plumber, accountant, even woodworking,etc. Only difference? No one has made a tv show around 'em.
Randy

[Norman Hitt]

It's been PBS policy not to show the manufactures name for the tools they are using... but just about any tool nut can recognize the red Bessey clamps, the and the Delta/PC gray along with Makita blue :)

That Policy sure must have changed in the last few years, because the Sponsors are certainly listed before and after the show here on PBS for both the NYW, and Router Workshop, and MUCH MUCH advertising by Home Depot on Hometime.

[Matt Day]

Ditka.....

[Charles Bruno]

I like both Norm and David. I watch most of the wood working shows to learn techniques that I will use with the tools I have. I've been inspired by many different styles. I like the style of David Marks, Sam Maloof and guy with the last name of Carpenter who's first name I can not recall. I even picked up a technique from Amy Devers of "Free form furniture" show on DIY. Saved me from buying a drum sander.

[Kyle Kraft]

Personally, I enjoy watching any woodworking show where I can pick up a tip, trick, or technique which makes my job easier or my work better, regardless of who is hosting the show. I have picked up a lot of good information from television shows over the years and find them to be a valuable and enjoyable resource. As far as the Master Woodworker is concerned, if there is not a course available through an accredited university or trade school, then I guess if you think you have mastered the art of woodworking to the best of your abilities you are indeed a Master.

By the way, I consider myself a Master Millwright even though there is no "official accreditation" of the term to my knowledge.

Kyle in K'zoo

[Chuck Saunders]

And all this time I felt the schools of thought were split between Roy Underhill and Norm. Perfect examples of diiferent approaches creating the desired result. But I have always been more impressed with the work that was done before power tools.
Chuck

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ditka.....

I didn't know that football player then coach Mike Ditka did woodworking.......:eek: :D

[John A. Williams]

Personally, my favorite has to be Bob Vila. Now there is a true master.

[John A. Williams]

No, I changed my mind, my favorite is Bruce Johnson.

[Lee DeRaud]

I am very much with Ken Shoemaker in being embarrassed should either of these great men, who share and impart their knowledge and experience with us and to us, see this thread.

There is so much to learn.
There are so many ways to create beautifully in wood.
There are just enough teachers, for those willing to listen.As Randy said, there's no bashing going on in this thread that I can see, just a comparison of their styles and different approaches to the game.

And one thing they seem to have in common: they both strike me as having a well-developed sense of humor.

Nothing to be embarassed about here.

[John Gregory]

I gotta tell you, I'm a bit embarrassed.

I'd hate for either of these talented men see this thread. I may only speak only for myself when I say would be honored to shake either of their hands and congratulated them on the their many accomplishments.

I've spent years "learning" from Norm and only months from David but I've gained far more than I can ever pay either of them back. Inspiration is a wonderful thing.

Let's let it go ........................
What Ken said :D

Norm inspired me and many others to try their hand at wood working. And I thank him for that. David Marks has shown me how woodworking can be an art, and that there are many methods to accomplish any task. Woodworking is a personal hobby, what one woodworker likes may not be liked by another, method OR finished piece. I choose to see both of these gentlemen as inspiration and teachers.
Concerning the term "master" in front of any skill or occupation. I read somewhere that was a designation for one that is able to teach his or her craft. Using the definition, Norm has taught many of us, hence I think he has earned the title.

Post Script: Thinking about it, as much as I enjoy watching David Marks, I am not sure that he would have inspired me to persue this hobby if his's was the first woodworking show that I saw 18 years ago. His show is not meant to inspire beginners IMHO<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

[Fred Voorhees]

Personally, my favorite has to be Bob Vila. Now there is a true master.
YIKES!!! YIKES!!!!

[Fred Voorhees]

Personally, my favorite has to be Bob Vila. Now there is a true master.
Wow! YIKES!!!

[Fred Voorhees]

No, I changed my mind, my favorite is Bruce Johnson.
DOUBLE YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!

[Michael Ballent]

That Policy sure must have changed in the last few years, because the Sponsors are certainly listed before and after the show here on PBS for both the NYW, and Router Workshop, and MUCH MUCH advertising by Home Depot on Hometime.

They call that sponsoring/support for this program (PBS speak for advertising). But in the show itself you should see all the labels covered up, occasionally something gets missed but 90%+ you will not see the manufacturers name. Delta has been a long time sponsor of NYW and you can see all the Delta gray in the shop... Of course who knows what will happen down the road now that B&D owns delta... probably more yellow tools (Dewalt ;) )

[Michael Ballent]

No, I changed my mind, my favorite is Bruce Johnson.

Now there is a winner :) I sit with my mouth open as he hacks up a piece of Stickley furniture, by adding bread board ends :eek: and sit in wonder as he takes uses a spade bit to install figure 8 fasteners :eek::confused: I wonder how I can get that job ;)

[Roger Bailey]

The NYW and Ask this old house are both filmed at the shop built for the shows producer. That shop is not Norm's nor are the tools. As far as his title of Master Woodworker goes I have not seen that. On TOH Norm is listed as a "Master Carpenter" to that I would agree. He builds a lot of nice pieces and uses techniques most woodworkers know. David builds pieces that require a more advanced woodworker to me. I think you would need a seperate warehouse just for all the MDF templates he uses. I have learned from both men and that is all that matters to me. I wish they would put on a channel just about woodworking from beginner to advanced.

[Curt Harms]

Woodworks has been taken off the air? Dingdangit!!! Why? I can no longer get NYW since I've got satellite, now no mo woodworks.....I am so depressed.

If You don't get local PBS channels (I have DirecTV) I think You can get the National PBS feed sans beggathons for $1/month. Might be worth checking into. It'd be nice if somebody would pick up Woodworks. Norm & David are Barbeque and Filet Mignon; I like 'em both:D .

Curt

[Chris Barton]

Now there is a winner :) I sit with my mouth open as he hacks up a piece of Stickley furniture, by adding bread board ends :eek: and sit in wonder as he takes uses a spade bit to install figure 8 fasteners :eek::confused: I wonder how I can get that job ;)

You can be like Bruce. He was the PR man for Minwax prior to his new gig with DIY...

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Noem. My money is on Norm.
Norm can beat the stuffing outta david marks. Norm is form Boston and Bostonians are far, far, far tougher than any left costians from the PRCA.

Norm would trash Marks beating him within a ninch of his life and then run him through the planer.

There I said it.

[Anthony Anderson]

I wish they would put on a channel just about woodworking from beginner to advanced.


Roger, that is a great idea, I wish someone would take ahold of it, and create a network just for woodworking. There seems to be one for just about everything else. Even Golf. How many times, and for how long, can you watch multi- millionaires hit a little white ball with a skinny metal stick with a weight on the end of it. I like golf for the scenery, wishing I was there. But at the end of the day, you still hit a little white ball with a stick. Accomplishment????? HMMMMM. Oh NO, I probably started something else:D. Bill

[Don Baer]

Roger, that is a great idea, I wish someone would take ahold of it, and create a network just for woodworking. There seems to be one for just about everything else. Even Golf. How many times, and for how long, can you watch multi- millionaires hit a little white ball with a skinny metal stick with a weight on the end of it. I like golf for the scenery, wishing I was there. But at the end of the day, you still hit a little white ball with a stick. Accomplishment????? HMMMMM. Oh NO, I probably started something else:D. Bill

I agree about an all woodoworking network. something like the Food Network. Just think about "Iron Turner". The secret ingredient can be diferant species of wood.:D

[Anthony Anderson]

Yeah Wes, I guess... I just had to be there. :confused: :rolleyes: Bill



Well, I've been saving this one for a good Norm thread, so this is as good as any. I will state that I like what Norm does, as with most DIY shows his has a place in the WW community. So no disrespect intended, I just thought this was a funny quote.

Set-up - on the show "House" (If you haven't seen the show, it won't quite have the same impact.) Dr. House is at home with a friend (only friend) and they are scanning through his Tivo list (I think it was Tivo). The friend asks “Why do you have a subscription to The New Yankee Workshop?” To which House responds “A moron working with power tools – how much more suspense can you get!” Needless to say, that one had me going for quite some time!:D

Sorry Norm, no disrespect meant, but it was funny - I guess you had to be there with a warped sense of humor.:rolleyes: :D

Wes

[Anthony Anderson]

I am with you and Ken, Although I never saw David, or even heard of him until this forum. They both garner respect from many on this forum. I for one, owe Norm my love of woodworking, and the many skills that I have gained from watching him on PBS and HGTV (when they were airing it). And I look forward to checking out David Marks sometime. So many thanks to both for encouraging a love of the art, regardless what form the art takes. I appreciate you both. Regards, Bill



I am very much with Ken Shoemaker in being embarrassed should either of these great men, who share and impart their knowledge and experience with us and to us, see this thread.

There is so much to learn.
There are so many ways to create beautifully in wood.
There are just enough teachers, for those willing to listen.

Frank

[Anthony Anderson]

Funny Cliff:D :D :D LOL. Bill





Noem. My money is on Norm.
Norm can beat the stuffing outta david marks. Norm is form Boston and Bostonians are far, far, far tougher than any left costians from the PRCA.

Norm would trash Marks beating him within a ninch of his life and then run him through the planer.

There I said it.

[Steve Clardy]

Never watched David. Do not get that channel.
Been bored with Norms projects for quite some time.
I record the episodes, then view when time permits.

[Gary Jacuk]

I have to say that I admire both of them, not for their TV shows but the fact that both of them were making a living at woodworking long before the success of a TV show came to them. Someone mentioned that people on this forum could probably do work comparable to either of them. True, no doubt, but within a time frame that was affordable? I built a banjo several years ago and it is as good as any out there, but no one would pay me for the time it took me to build it (actually some people would pay me not to build it:) ).
They were both making a living at woodworking in the "real world" before the TV shows and that in itself is quite an accomplishment as those who have tried know.

[Wes Bischel]

Yeah Wes, I guess... I just had to be there. :confused: :rolleyes: Bill


So sorry Anthony, didn't mean to annoy you.

Wes

[Carl Eyman]

I don't get the chance to watch David often. When I saw both I liked what Norm was doing slightly more than Dave, but SO WHAT? They're both good! Can't we enjoy both? What purpose does it serve to choose one over the Other?

[Bob Huddleston]

Norm for me.

I did not even know who this Marks guy was, but went and looked it up. Not my pretty boy style at all. I agree with an earlier post...the stuff I see Norm make (and my pathetic reproductions) are much more the kind of stuff that fit into my house...if I measured properly.

[Dick Heifner]

Hi All,
Check out the woodworkingchannel.org, It's a start

Dick

[John Kain]

Man, I didn't even realize I got the DIY channel. Just watched David for the first time this last weekend. He smiles at weird times. Otherwise, I like his show. Informative, maybe a little fast at points, but overall very nice.

Norm will always be my favorite. He was my first.......uh...er........

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I think any woodworking show on TV is great. I like and learn something from all of them, even if that something is "I don't think I'll do it that way". My favorite show and the only one I make sure to catch every week is "Desperate Housewives". LOML can't believe I actually know all their names. Boston Legal is a close second.

Norm - lots of projects that look fun to make and also like something I'd like in my house.

David - beautiful, graceful designs with excellent craftsmanship too.

Bruce - you gotta start somewhere....right? This is my wife's favorite WW show and I think its because he does such simple projects with few tools.

Roy - I didn't know you could do that with a chisel and saw!

Why do people who don't watch TV feel the need to tell you they don't watch TV?

[Jerry Olexa]

I enjoy both shows esp when on a topic/project I'm interested in. As much as I like/respect Norm , his shop is overkill i.e, when doing pocket hole joinery he ends up using an industrial (fully automatic) machine and intended for factory/production work. Seems to me, he has a moulding machine in his shop. Not very realistic in terms of the average WWer he reaches on Saturday AM.
In spite of this, I like his show and respect his skills.

[Justin J. Hoffmann]

I have learned many techniques from both of these incredible teachers. For me, Norm's creations seem more approachable. I don't know that I could even hope to recreate any project David has done, but that doesn't diminish my appreciation of his work. Both men can create some awe inspiring things.

As far as the whole Master Carpenter thing goes, Norm addresses that on the New Yankee website in response to a question posed by a visitor:

http://www.newyankee.com/fanmail/popcontent.php3?message_cd=34753

It's not an official designation. I can only speculate that Norm takes the teaching side of what he does pretty seriously, so he continues to use that title.

Before I knew about either of these guys, my dad was my first woodworking inspiration. He taught me how to swing a hammer.

[Kevin Herber]

Each man's work is so different that I can’t see one as being better than the other. This is like talking about Maloof and Krenov. I always had a desire to do woodworking but I tip my hat to Norm for his incredible ability to demonstrate and teach. He is what got me going. I cannot think of another person more deserving of the title “Master Carpenter”.

I am also a fan of David Marks. I see his work as more artsy than Norm’s or Scott Phillips’ or any of the others on TV. Does that mean he is better (or worse)? Certainly not, just different. Is Maloof better than Krenov, certainly not, just different.

I agree with the others that each person on TV has his or her own audience and skill level. I get something from them all. I have to add that I am just a bit envious that they are getting to do what they love for a living while achieving a bit of celebrity at the same time.

It’s been fun to watch Norm’s level of projects advance over the years. I remember his Adirondack chair many years ago. Now look at his upholstered chairs and finely finished tables. David was already established as a master when he came on the scene so we have not gotten to see him grow in the same way.

Unfortunately, I have not had the pleasure of meeting either man, but I have talked to folks who have. They are both reputed to be very friendly and unimpressed with themselves. I respect that. As I recall David Marks joined in with a Creeker’s weekend get together one time. That’s pretty cool. I haven’t seen Brad or Angelina drop in on anyone’s BBQ!!!

I’m repeating someone else here, but I would consider it an honor to shake either man’s hand.

-- Kevin

[Michael Adelong]

I’m repeating someone else here, but I would consider it an honor to shake either man’s hand.

Dittos on that. But I was thinking along the lines of brewskies & clam chowder with Naaahm and wine and cheese with Mr. Marks.

I tip my hat to both.

M-

[Richard Blaine]

Unfortunately, I have not had the pleasure of meeting either man, but I have talked to folks who have. They are both reputed to be very friendly and unimpressed with themselves.

I met David last weekend at the woodworking show where he gave three presentations. I sat in on his inlay gig, and I was pleased with it. I talked to him afterwards, and I can also tell you that he is a pleasant person who does not have attitude.

He may be one of the few things that will keep me going to the woodworking shows.

[Ken Belisle]

Plus, I hated that he was being positioned as a Master Woodworker by the marketing gurus; and as we all know he's really a carpenter (albeit a good one), and I've never heard of anyone else referred to as a Master Woodworker.

Never seen David's show.

Not to start an argument or anything, but Norm is referred to as "Hosted by master carpenter Norm Abram" on both This Old House and The New Yankee Workshop.

The quote is taken directly from the NYW website................

[Andy Hoyt]

Thanks Ken - I stand corrected.

[Keith Christopher]

It's no secret that I am a true David Marks fan. I am consistently inspired by his designs, skills and techniques. What you see on woodworks is a small and I mean small representation of his work. I like that David uses tools I have access to, maybe not as big iron as his, well other than that dang multi router -someday one will be mine until then sprial bit.:D -

Norm inspires me and I like his yankee style and the projects he builds. I've built several of his things his plans straight forward and in the end a nice piece of furniture.

Bruce Johnson is more this is what typical people have in their house and will build something with them. Not bad projects, like weekend projects built in a day look nice and have function.

In the end, they each inspire different levels of individuals, bottom line we're drawn to what we aspire to be, and I watch them all. Because inspiration comes in many forms and from many places. Aspiration comes from within.

Keith

[Matt Guyrd]

I saw a picture somewhere (DM's website maybe?) of the two of them at an event with Coronos in hand. Clearly two different talented artists in their own right.

I wonder what the two of them converse about? I'm sure it would be interesting to listen in on there talks. Anybody hazard a guess? Are they talking shop, politics, religion, gender (read "chicks"), cars, Lobstah, Bubinga? Hmmm, maybe they talk about doing a show together "Yankee Woodworks".

Matt

[Michael Gibbons]

When I started this thread ,I didn't mean to start a brawl. I have read in a few articles that professionals, not on this forum, do bash Norm for using nothing but power tools but haven't seen anything similar about D.M.. I personaly think Norm is the man. He inspired me to give it a shot and for that I am grateful. Norms talents as well as his shop have improved over time. If you've ever seen his first ever project "The Medicine Cabinet" you'll agree. 18 seasons and several hundred pieces later, anybodys ability would improve. I do watch David Marks when I can and admire his artsy type work, though some projects wouldn't work too well in my house.

[Lee DeRaud]

I saw a picture somewhere (DM's website maybe?) of the two of them at an event with Coronos in hand. Clearly two different talented artists in their own right.

I wonder what the two of them converse about? I'm sure it would be interesting to listen in on there talks. Anybody hazard a guess?Norm was probably hitting him up for a free multi-router.:D :cool:

[Jim Bell]

David's wife is absolutely beautiful. I like her best.:D
Jim

[Ronaldo Messina]

from FWW, april 1993, pp 50:

Abram acknowledges that WGBH
might have brought some of the criticism on by using the term
master carpenter to describe his job.
"Master carpenter is a title that Russ gave me," Abram said.
"It may be a legitimate title in the theater, but there's no such
thing in the construction trade, just a journeyman. But I look at
the term as meaning someone who is always trying to improve
his skills—who continues to learn with each project—as opposed
to one who has reached top level, because there's so much to
learn in the field."

Russ Morash is the producer (at least at the time of the article)

[Tim Malyszko]

While I like Norm, I was mesmerized by David Marks from the first time I saw him on DIY. I remember while living in Nebraska, I saw the show late one night after work on DIY and was amazed at how he turned some rough lumber into beautiful works of art.

I said to myself that when I get the space, time and money, I want to work to be like David.

Four years later, I have the money and now the tools, but not necessarly the time, but do have a small space to call my own. While my craftmenship is very amateurish now, I hope in a few years, I can start turning out projects like David.

[Brad Noble]

One major difference is that WoodWorks was filmed (they are not making any more episodes of the show) in David's own workshop with him using his own tools, where as NYW is filmed in the producers shop using tools dropped off by the show sponsors. Most of Davids tools were bought used the same way any of us can buy em for a bargain if we hunt around enough; but last time I looked on my front stoop Delta hadn't left me one of every top end tool in their lineup :eek:.
Oh, I don't know. Do you suppose that David and Amy (from Freeform Furniture) both went to visit Uncle Bob Marino and bought every power tool that Festool has to offer at the same time? They started to appear on their shows at about the same time. I don't think so. Granted, David Marks does supply a lot of his own tools for his show and most of them are old quality machines but not all of them are.

Brad

[Alan Greene]

I like and am learning from both of them. I agree that it would be an interesting show to see them design and build something together. David's videos can be seen on diynetwork.com after clicking on the woodworking tab. I believe they put on a rerun episode each week on the web site.

While talking about learning, I would like to say thank you to all the folks here who share their knowledge, techniques, tips and projects. I have learned, and gotten a lot of inspiration from, your comments and web sites. Hopefully as my skills develop I to can pass on my love of woodworking as you all are doing now.

Thanks

[Brad Hammond]

i dont know about tool placement........ my problem is scrap placement! i keep havin to step over stuff. gonna fix that today.

i agree with the above post. each has their own style and niche.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I answered this same Q before and my answer stands.
Norm (a hard Bostonian) would kick Mark's soft California but around all day every day any day.

And in this corner having lost almost 200 pounds and down to his fighting trim is:
NORM the SWARM

[Harry Goodwin]

I appreciate both of them and can get David on the woodworking site on internet which gives him an advantagee. Hate to see the networks play with Norm. I enjoy all these woodworking shows. No need to kill one another off. Harry

[Greg Stanford]

I'd rather have Norm as a next door neighbor.

[glenn bradley]

I'd like to be half as good as either of them. As for as shop layout; what Don said.

[michael tessler]

I have gotten more advanced tips from watching David Marks, especially concerning furniture as art.

A bunch of years ago I met Norm at a talk he was giving. At least at that time, he didn't like the Hometime people. He mentioned that the shop was owned by Russel Morash. the producer of TOH, etc. He also mentioned that tool vendors were tripping over each other to get their new tools on his show. I imagine the biggest impact of his show has been to the tool industry.

Bruce (what's his name).......I kringe when I watch his program. I can't count how many poor, and sometimes dangerous, techniques he shows.

Now I really enjoy watching Amy Devers..........especially when she wears the T-shirt with the front end of a car on it!

[James Carmichael]

I didn't know that football player then coach Mike Ditka did woodworking.......:eek: :D

Now I'd pay to watch that, especially when a joint doesn't fit:eek:

[Wilbur Pan]

The only thing I don't like about David Marks' show is that every time they come back from commercial, they have to do the recap as to what was done in the last segment. With commercials, the show is already down to 22 minutes worth of actual airtime, so taking away any of that is a loss.

[Lee DeRaud]

I'd rather have Norm as a next door neighbor.You apparently missed the 'Woodworks' episode where Marks gave a tour of his "wood barn": I'd much rather have access to David's scrap pile than access to Norm's tools.

(Not to mention that I'd much rather live in central California than in Massachusetts.:p )

[Adam Bauer]

The only thing I don't like about David Marks' show is that every time they come back from commercial, they have to do the recap as to what was done in the last segment. With commercials, the show is already down to 22 minutes worth of actual airtime, so taking away any of that is a loss.

I think thats a DIY thing because they do it on their woodturning show as well.

[Jim Becker]

I'd rather have Norm as a next door neighbor.

I'd love to have either...or both...as neighbors. I've met and spoken to David and he's a very warm and congenial guy. His work is very stimulating. While I haven't met Norm, he's one of the reasons for my woodworking passion and also brings the construction/home improvement angle. The two of them would be a killer combination for me! LOL!

[Fred Voorhees]

Now I really enjoy watching Amy Devers..........especially when she wears the T-shirt with the front end of a car on it!

Yeah, what he said!

[Robert Mickley]

Norm? Norm who?

Cliffy,, Norm,,your buddy from the bar :D

[James Carmichael]

The only thing I don't like about David Marks' show is that every time they come back from commercial, they have to do the recap as to what was done in the last segment. With commercials, the show is already down to 22 minutes worth of actual airtime, so taking away any of that is a loss.

Yeah, I do like his show, but agree it is very abbreviated.

I must confess to never having seen Nawm in anything but TOH.

I get much more from WW books than TV shows. I just bought Jim Toplin's "The Toolbox Book" and, can only saw, wow. Also Richard Raffan's Woodturning(title?).

[Jim Becker]

That "recap" technique is endemic to many shows on the Scripts stations...I guess they require a production "style sheet" approach. I don't prefer it, but I guess they do it with the assumption that enough folks join a program mid-stream while "surfing" that the recap builds interest to keep them tuned in. Or something equally creative...

[Mark Riegsecker]

I watched Norm once slop glue all over his project and wondered how he was going to deal with that. At the end of the show I saw the paint can come out. .....OOOOH .. OK :eek: I get it.


I like the way David says smoooooooth I don't know how he does that. I've tried but it just doesn't sound the same:D


Mark

[Jeff Heil]

I haven't met Norm, but enjoy his show. I tend to prefer mission and contemporary styles of furniture over the shaker and colonial styles Norm favors. Norm has some nice techniques and is a pleasure to watch.

I took a class through WC with David. The 8 hour class was suposed to end at 5, David was still there with us at 7:30pm. He is a class act and very down to earth. I wish he was still doing shows. He hinted the shows were costing him money and he had used lots of his own wood to build some of the projects on the show. He seemed very comfortable in his role as a teacher was very down to earth sharing his successes and failures and the evolution of his methods. The class was money well spent in my opinion.

[Chris de la Pena]

I like both of them and being a newbie I am thankful that there are programs on TV that are worth watching.. I probably have about 40 episodes of Woodworks recorded on my tivo. I just started recording NYW two months ago. My favorite episode of Woodworks was the episode where David Marks did a tour of his shop and showed his tools and also the jigs that he uses. The other episode that I like is when he paid a visit to James Krenov and Art Espenet Carpenter and had a tour of their shop, it was simply amazing. I have to pick up a DVD recorder so I can move some of the episodes on tivo to a dvd disc.

[Rick Levine]

I gotta tell you, I'm a bit embarrassed.

I'd hate for either of these talented men see this thread. I may only speak only for myself when I say would be honored to shake either of their hands and congratulated them on the their many accomplishments.

I've spent years "learning" from Norm and only months from David but I've gained far more than I can ever pay either of them back. Inspiration is a wonderful thing.

Let's let it go ........................

Amen to that, Ken!

[John Mihich]

Actually master carpenter is a valid title for someone working in the entertainment field. My son was a master carpenter for the theater group here. So technically Norm is a master carpenter.

If you have watched Norm from the beginning he too used non-sponsored tools; a whole bunch of them. Over time his shop is mainly gray but he still has some that are not.

I also think Norm has gone from a carpenter to a wood worker over the years. I rewatch a lot of his early shows and the wood working was more in the carpenter style then fine wood working. That has changed over the years.

I have only seen DM a couple of times and I like Norm's presentation skills better; of course he has had a few more years doing it. I also like the camera work on Norm's show better. Again years of experience does help.

[Al Willits]

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't read anything that would offend either of them...??

Both Woodworkers, different fields of wood, and both seem to do quite well in their respective field.
I haven't met Norm, but did Marks, and he'd probably make a great neighbor, has a good sense of humor, personable, and easy going manner that I found enjoyable.

I only wished I'd recorded Davids programs, be nice if they came out in DVD...O-well...

I enjoyed Wookworks more than Norm's show, but being we're starting several remodeling projects, I seem to be watching Norm a lot more now.

Glad they're both on.
Al

[Lee DeRaud]

I only wished I'd recorded Davids programs, be nice if they came out in DVD...O-well...FWIW, Amazon has season 7 (2006) available as video downloads for $2 each. Don't know when/if earlier stuff will be available.

[Ralph Dobbertin]

Chris: are we still able to see Kren ovs shop on Marks' web site? If so do you know the link. Thx for posting this

[Michael McCoy]

I only wished I'd recorded Davids programs, be nice if they came out in DVD...O-well...


They are available on Amazon for $1.99 an episode

[Al Willits]

They are available on Amazon for $1.99 an episode

Thanks, you know if they can be downloaded into your hard drive or burned to DVD?
Al

[Al Navas]

Thanks, you know if they can be downloaded into your hard drive or burned to DVD?...
I believe it means that, once downloaded, you can burn to DVD and that you can expect DVD quality. From the Amazon web site (http://www.amazon.com/Wood-Works-708/dp/B000JR9P64/sr=8-1/qid=1168545642/ref=pd_bbs_1/105-4359102-7089242?ie=UTF8&s=digital-video):

--------------------------------------------
Price for each video includes both a DVD-quality video to watch on your PC or TV, and a video file optimized for compatible portable video players. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=atv_dp_mobile/105-4359102-7089242?ie=UTF8&docId=1000038721)
--------------------------------------------

There is no mention of High Definition, but DVD quality should pretty good.


.

[Lee DeRaud]

I believe it means that, once downloaded, you can burn to DVD...Or not: read this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=atv_dp_mobile/105-4364999-2986035?%5Fencoding=UTF8&nodeId=200026970). In particular: "Any back-up copy of the Purchased Digital Content on a DVD will not be playable on a traditional DVD player, but only on a permitted Authorized Device."

[Al Willits]

""""""""""
Or not: read this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=atv_dp_mobile/105-4364999-2986035?%5Fencoding=UTF8&nodeId=200026970). In particular: "Any back-up copy of the Purchased Digital Content on a DVD will not be playable on a traditional DVD player, but only on a permitted Authorized Device."
""""""""

Looks like I spend $2 to find out...
Then maybe the weekend trying to find a way to curcumvent it...:)

Thanks guys.
Al

[Dewayne Reding]

My interest in WW went from casual to rabid after watching both of their shows for only a couple weeks. For me there is no Norm vs Dave. The way I see it. The more shows...... the more interest in the hobby.... the more tools and techniques become available to all of us at lesser cost. I feel a bit of gratitude to anyone that advances my hobbies.

[Jason Berkley]

I'm glad you brought that up, because I was just wondering the other day what classifies someone as a master woodworker. Could someone fill me in?

[Jason Berkley]

Sorry guys, I'm new to the site and missed all the explanations for 'master woodworker/carpenter'. As far as Norm goes, anyone that can teach me anything useful about working with wood has my appreciation, no matter the tool. If I get the jist, I can rig up anything with a different tool. That's where I have the most fun. :)

[Ted Miller]

Its like learning about all the species of wood, never to old to learn and I learn from both of these guys all the time, great guys and most of time after watching their shows I wonder why am I on the couch, get into my shop and do something right now...

[Al Navas]

Or not: read this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=atv_dp_mobile/105-4364999-2986035?%5Fencoding=UTF8&nodeId=200026970). In particular: "Any back-up copy of the Purchased Digital Content on a DVD will not be playable on a traditional DVD player, but only on a permitted Authorized Device."
I stand corrected, as I did not get far enough into the details. One of the files in the download is a Windows Movie Maker file you download, and it is DVD-quality. It is digitally protected and therefore cannot be copied. In addition, the download includes a compact file that seems to be a proprietary format, which is to be played on a number of "authorized devices", which I assume refers to portable players.

For the $2 price per download, this is VERY reasonable, in my opinion. The caveat is that you are limited to playing the movie on your PC, or on an "approved" portable player.


.

[Lee DeRaud]

I stand corrected, as I did not get far enough into the details. One of the files in the download is a Windows Movie Maker file you download, and it is DVD-quality. It is digitally protected and therefore cannot be copied. In addition, the download includes a compact file that seems to be a proprietary format, which is to be played on a number of "authorized devices", which I assume refers to portable players.

For the $2 price per download, this is VERY reasonable, in my opinion. The caveat is that you are limited to playing the movie on your PC, or on an "approved" portable player.Yup, fairly reasonable as DRM restrictions go these days...at least you can make a backup copy.