Windows, as in sashes, not operating system

[Denise Ohio]

Okay, so here's the dealio (please feel free to point and laugh)...

We're finally building our strawbale house. The windows will be casements and awnings. We have 4' eaves, so the windows will be wood and oiled rather than clad or painted. (The wood will match both our ceiling decking and contrast beautifully with the plaster and stucco finish on the walls).

We planned on my making the fixed windows that will go below the awnings. Imagine a 2'x2' awning with a 2'x4' fixed below it. We're considering Lindal windows and I even got an extra fixed from someone to use as a template.

I have salvaged old-growth doug fir (Lindal's are fir) and salvaged old-grwoth cedar. I can get VG fir relatively easily (we live in the Pacific NW). I have a pal who is a glasscarving artist (sandblasting, etc.) who has said she'll walk me through the process.

But I'm wondering...if I go through all the trouble of making the fixed, is it smart to go ahead and make the casements and awnings as well?

I've been looking for drawings just to get a sense of the amount of work I'll be doing and the new tools (yay!) I'll need. I have the article from Sommerfeld's (www.sommerfeldtools.com/tutorial-windowsash.asp (http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/tutorial-windowsash.asp)), but heck if I can find other clean and clear instructions on the web.

One of the things about the Sommerfeld tutorial is the thickness of the glass. We'll be using insulated Low-e glass, but this tutorial has single pane 1/8". Is it possible to use the insulated glass using these directions anyway?

I yield to your magnificence.

[tod evans]

denise, as a person who makes wood sashes for folks who won`t listen to reason, i`d suggest purchasing windows from a reputable manufacturer such as pella or anderson.....02 tod

[Jim Becker]

Denise, if you have a LOT of time to practice, prototype and then build your windows... ;) ...otherwise, I kinda a agree with Tod. A reasonable compromise would be to build the framework from that wonderful D-Fir and use so-called replacement windows (wood that is clad in an appropriate color or unfinished...your choice) for the "business end" of the windows. Given the need for energy efficiency as well as longevity, I personally would not be very inclined to build exterior windows, although I'd definitely "go for it" on a featured entry door.

[lou sansone]

it looks like you can use any thickness glass you want from what I can see from the link. all the coping would usually be done on a powermatic 2A or similar machine. That would require a lot of custom tooling. the sommerfield stuff gets around it by having the flat top coping cutter. I have made windows using a similar setup, and will probably make some more for my home. it is a fair amount of work, but once you get your lengths set up, it is very easy. you will need a coping sled or a sliding table shaper for the muttons. it can be done.

lou

[Charles McCracken]

Denise,

We offer a comparable bit set to the one that you found and they are not designed for insulated glass. There is not enough carbide height to make the rabbet that tall (much less wide enough to hide the seal in the glass). If you have your heart set on doing this you can make profiled sash components with router bits then mortise and tenon the joints and miter the profile.

[Andy Hoyt]

Given that you will expect each and every window to perform flawlessly for many many years; and that all windows are a significant source of energy loss it has always been my recommendation to put as much money as the budget will allow and as much faith as you can muster into the benefits and experience of folks who make windows all day every day.

There are many recognizable national firms; here are two that I'm particularly fond of: Kolbe and Kolbe (http://www.kolbe-kolbe.com/) & Pozzi (http://www.jeld-wen.com/pozzi/).

[Denise Ohio]

If you have your heart set on doing this you can make profiled sash components with router bits then mortise and tenon the joints and miter the profile.

Thanks for the info. That's an interesting idea. Before I found the bit set, this was what I was going to do.

And thanks everyone else for your comments. I get that a lot of people say, "Leave it to the professionals," and we may do that.

But before we decide to do that (I have quotes from Pella and Bergerson already), I'd like to give it a try. I have time, inclination, tools, and materials.

Any other tips for building windows are appreciated.

[Dan Racette]

I would contact some commercial glass companies to see if they have any "off size" or recycled windows. There is a weathershield plant in the town I grew up in. they have some outlet stuff. There is a contractor place near Milwaukee, WI that is a cash and carry of off-size or odd-size custom windows. The commercial place that I am referring to also reclaims windows from building deconstruction. Just some thoughts.

If you decide to manufacture your own, and are doing strawbale, i would definitely consider making your window frameouts in a manner that would allow the easy replacement of windows without disrupting the straw structure.

I too am looking into straw, but shying away at this point.

just some thoughts
dan

[Denise Ohio]

We'll build door and window bucks prior to putting up the bales, not float them inside the bales. So swapping out windows is definitely possible. I have the detail all drawn up, I'm just too lazy to double-click the JPG and go through it. I can if ya want, though.

Our framing is steel with SIP roof, though many people frame using the bucks as framing members by beefing them up or as part of the frame by building the bucks as box columns. The steel frame allows us clear span inside the house at 64x32 so instead of partition walls, we'll divide spaces using built-ins, shoji screens, salvaged pocket doors on farm sliders, and stuff like that.

I've been looking at salvaged windows for months and months---I even salvaged some beautiful french doors and windows. The muntins and sashes are too narrow for the insulated glass, so I designed the house with these on the interior.

I'm very proud of myself for being so very clever. Oh, yes, let me coast on my smugness for a moment...and I'm done.

Of course, I'm not enjoying the re-finishing. Hear that? It's the sound of old glass cracking and then me swearing. Luckily, I have another pal who is a stained glass artist who has a stack of old replacement glass I can have.

I can find insulated glass panels relatively easily and tempered glass free. I'm probably going to order the insulated glass for the warrantee, though the off-cuts idea is a good one. Our design has a glass wall (with awnings above) and window seat in the living room/common area that could use a bit more break-up of glass.

I saw a very cool picture of a log house with a window wall done this way. Certainly fits our design. But I'd have to build it because I can't afford to hire someone to do it.

I can see why someone would shy away from the bale thing. I've worked on a couple and a pal of mine is an expert on these structures. The house is designed to allow us to do the maintenance these houses require even when we get all old and feeble.

[Ken Garlock]

Denise, I am curious to know what the R value is for your straw bails. I have 8" thick SIP walls(R-30) that support themselves and a large hipped roof. The PBS people (http://www.premier-industries.com/pbs/default.aspx) wouldn't even attempt to design a SIP roof for our house.

Where is Ohio do you live?

[Vaughn McMillan]

...I'm very proud of myself for being so very clever. Oh, yes, let me coast on my smugness for a moment...and I'm done...

For some reason, that line just made my day. :p

Sorry to be of no help on the window question, but thanks for the laugh, and welcome to the Creek. :D

- Vaughn

[tod evans]

Thanks for the info. That's an interesting idea. Before I found the bit set, this was what I was going to do.

And thanks everyone else for your comments. I get that a lot of people say, "Leave it to the professionals," and we may do that.

But before we decide to do that (I have quotes from Pella and Bergerson already), I'd like to give it a try. I have time, inclination, tools, and materials.

Any other tips for building windows are appreciated.

denise, do you want these windows to open? or are they to be stationary? if they`re to open will they be double hung or crankouts? either way if they are to open you`ll most likely need hardware, sash weights or spring assist for double hungs or hinges and cranks for crankouts. i would strongly suggest that you find your hardware and weatherstripping before going ahead with your window design. most sashes are made out of "d and better pine", this is a high grade of clear pine that in 8/4 is likely to run 4-6 bucks a board foot wholesale depending on your area and conections. next you`re going to need more than a router and a tablesaw to build functional windows, at bare minimum you`ll need a planer and mortiser, clamps, chisels and glasers tools for installing glass.....

if you`re not put off yet, wood windows rot! period.....all of them. i put pella in my own house for a reason, they`re a good unit.
remember, i manufacture and wholesale radiused windows and doors and the associated mouldings for a living.....it may be quaint or resourcefull to build your own but in the end it`s not cost effective and you`re stuck with a lesser quality product than the bigboys make. if you can get windows from pella/anderson ect. you`ll be glad in the long run..02 tod

[Denise Ohio]

Ken,

I don't live in Ohio. That's my name. Yes, really. It's on my library card and everything. Everyone but my mom calls me Ohio.

As I remember...3-string bales are nominally R-40, 2-string bales R-35. Though this depends on the real thickness of the bales and stuccos. The Canadian Mortgage and Housing Authority has done an excellent set of tests on SB structures. I think I have the URL around here somewhere.

Since we're building a post-and-beam, the engineering for the hipped roof with clerestory is known. And we're using steel, so the permit people will be very happy. We were on the verge of going with loadbearing strawbale, but there were three reasons we didn't:

1. Building season. The bale walls have to go up, be compressed, Grippled, lathed, and meshed before the oof can go on. Our house is large enough that this was not a weekend sort of operation and up here in the Pacific Northwest, we can never be sure it won't rain.

2. Loadbearing structures have fewer windows than we wanted.

3. Clearspans on the interior would have been limited since partition walls would have been part of the loadbearing structure.

There other reasons, too, but those were the three biggies. Oh, yeah, earthquake stuff and if the walls should fail, we can tear them out and replace with SIPs, after I win the lottery.

It's unlikely our walls will fail since we have a 4' eave all the way around the structure. We'll be doing some wind- and rainscreen plantings, which will help slow down any moisture coming from the outside.

Interestingly, it's the moisture inside the buiulding going out that concerns me the most, regardless of the way the house is built. We chose SB for a lot of reasons, but a big one is the breathability of finishes, meaning vapor from inside can get out, instead of getting trapped in the walls. I've taken down some rotten framing, let me tell, you and it's a) gross and b) instructive.

ohio

[Ken Garlock]

OK Ohio. Gee whiz, I have never met a person named Ohio, that is rather neat.

Thanks for the good info on your project. It sounds like you have spent a lot of time thinking it through. I saw a program on using SB for walls, but I think the project was in Arizona or south California. I hope you do not run into moisture problems down the road.

Now that you are a creeker, we will want to see pictures as the project progresses. Consider it to be our education....