Board foot confusion

[Laurie Brown]

Ok, I'm realtively new to all this, and I recently bought some wood from a local lumber supplier. I suspect I was overcharged now that I've worked over the numbers.

According to my receipt, I have 4 board feet of hard maple, and $5.213/bdft, for a total of $20.85.

However, after measuring the board at home, I'm not sure where the 4 board feet was arrived at.

From what I understand, 1 board foot = 1 inch x 12 inches by 12 inches, or 144 cubic inches? Is that correct?

The board I have is 13/16" thick by 5 1/2" wide by 73" long. I calculate that as 326.2 + inches, or roughly 2.265 board feet.

Or do I have no clue what I'm talking about? If it's really 4, can someone tell me how that's calculated?

[tod evans]

laurie, the thickness is nominal, to be considered 1" but the length and width are figured actual....02 tod

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Laurie,
The thickness is based on when the wood was rough sawn. After drying and surface planing, it's usually between 13/16 to 7/8" thick. But it's called 4/4 anyway. So you pay for something that really doesn't exist in the end product.

From your measurements, the board should have been considered 3 bdft (6ft x 1/2ft). Also, lumber yards usually round to the nearest bdft. (2.9 bdft = 3 bdft). So I think they were off a little.

-Jeff

[Laurie Brown]

From your measurements, the board should have been considered 3 bdft (6ft x 1/2ft). Also, lumber yards usually round to the nearest bdft. (2.9 bdft = 3 bdft). So I think they were off a little.

Ok, then I think what they probably did was round everything up. That gives us 1/2 ft x 7ft, or 3.5, rounded up to 4. Which sucks, if you ask me, since I was thinking it should have only been around 3 board feet. They similarly rounded up a soft maple board that was probably a less then a foot longer and the same width and called it 5.

I'd like to say I won't buy from these guys any more, but they still have the lowest prices per board foot that I've found yet locally, and that's sad if you ask me. I can get lower prices if I want to drive 3 hours to another state, but I shouldn't have to do that to get decent wood at a decent price.

[john whittaker]

You should have been charged for 3 board feet. I'd ask them about it the next time in just to confirm how they are figuring bd/ft, and ease your mind about doing business with them. Most wood retailers are good honest folks.

[Jeff Geltz]

I do the math for bf calcs as follows:

5.5 X 73 = 401.75 / 144 = 2.78

If you want to be generous, you can use 6" instead of 5.5 which gives you 3.04 total board feet.

Neither one comes up to 4 bf in my book.

[Luther Oswalt]

Laurie,
Here is the way I was always taught to measure a Board Foot:http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/What_is_a_Board_Foot.html
Leo

[Jim Becker]

Length is actual or thereabouts. Width is rounded up or down to the next whole inch and thickness is based on "quarters"...a 13/16" board is considered 1" thick (4/4) for the purposes of figuring board feet. Therefore, your board would be measured at 6" x 1" x 73" = 438 / 144 = 3.04. So I agree with others that you should have been charged for 3 board foot.

[Lee DeRaud]

Ok, then I think what they probably did was round everything up. That gives us 1/2 ft x 7ft, or 3.5, rounded up to 4. Which sucks, if you ask me, since I was thinking it should have only been around 3 board feet. They similarly rounded up a soft maple board that was probably a less then a foot longer and the same width and called it 5.Let's see, their pricing is to the tenth of a cent per board foot...but when they calculate quantity, they round up two measurements, multiply them together, and then round up the result?!? That's a rip-off, plain and simple.

Run fast, run far.

[Brett Baldwin]

If it wasn't just an honest mistake or a poorly trained sales rep. then you may have discovered the "secret" to their excellent prices.

[Jim W. White]

Laurie,

In Virginia, you should have a variety of good sources to pull rough sawn lumber from. The East Coast is littered with hard wood. I'm from Vermont originally; and I think it would pay off in spades for you to do a little more research and find a few more suppliers.

Also, it's been my experience that the more business you do with any particular wood supplier; the more generous their tape measure will become :D . The lesson in all this, buy more wood!!! :D :p

my 2 cents,

Jim W

In his defense, the board you describe might have come of an 8' long bunk. Perhaps he didn't note that you had pulled a 6' long stick?!? I'd just go back and ask him nicely, I 'm sure he'll be more than happy to keep you as a happy customer and will readily admit the mistake.

[Mark Rios]

I just emailed my brother who is a math professor at MIT. He ran the numbers through their Craig 9002 supercomputer and, after six minutes of number crunching, the computer came back with 3.003697854268985559787435 bd ft.

He said that you got overcharged.






:D :D :D

[Richard Wolf]

I think that if you return with the board and say you would like to return it for a refund. They will remeasure it and come up with 3bf. So now you have used 1 bf of wood and never even seen it.
It's amazing how they can work magic with the hardwood stick. It's just bad business. For 5 bucks they may have lost a good customer.

Richard

[Dev Emch]

The Good Stuff (hard wood) is usually sold by the board foot in the buff. Rough that is. First of all, 1 board foot is a 12 in by 12 in by 1 in slab. In otherwords, its 144 cubic inches of termite fodder.

Second, rough lumber is sold by the quarter. So a rough slab about 1 inch thick is called FOUR QUARTER or 4/4. Should this be planed down for public consumption, it often is planed to 3/4 inch finished. So 3/4 in finished stock is 1 inch nominal. Now, depending on what your doing and what machines you have and how skilled you are, its not uncommon to plane 1 inch rough stock to 7/8 in finished. But if your using a brain dead high school student on a moulder set to do S4S, bet on getting 3/4 inch.

Lastly, the wider the stock is or the thicker the stock is, the higher the price. So you may pay a bit more to get 8/4 stock. But dont let that fool you. The higher price is still a per board foot price. Your just buying the opportunity to buy fatter material which is harder to come by. Its still based on 144 cubes at a time!

Hope this helps. Back to the shop to butcher more lumber. At the rate I am going, there will be no baltic birch and maple left in this country!

[tod evans]

to clarify devs anology of "fat"rough lumber....it takes a very skilled kiln operator and much more time to properly dry lumber much fatter than 5/4 that`s why the price climbs quickly with fatter stock..02 tod

[Laurie Brown]

In his defense, the board you describe might have come of an 8' long bunk. Perhaps he didn't note that you had pulled a 6' long stick?!? I'd just go back and ask him nicely, I 'm sure he'll be more than happy to keep you as a happy customer and will readily admit the mistake.

Actually, he took out a tape measure and a calculator, measured the thing three times, and added it up. The only way I can see him getting this number is by the above rounding off method. He said I was free to bring my own saw and cut the boards to whatever length I want, to next time I'll probably take my cordless circular saw and a tape measure and cut stuff so it won't get rounded up to the next foot when it's 1 inch over length.

[nic obie]

I think that if you return with the board and say you would like to return it for a refund. They will remeasure it and come up with 3bf. So now you have used 1 bf of wood and never even seen it.
It's amazing how they can work magic with the hardwood stick. It's just bad business. For 5 bucks they may have lost a good customer.

Richard

Richard has the right idea.

Look them straight in the eye and make sure you have your original receipt.

Sounds to me that they have an employee who can't figure bf. It happens to me all the time. It's no big deal, just be gentle correcting the mistake if you wish to use the yard again.

[Joe Chritz]

I must be lucky here as I just lucked into a local Kiln owner who started making cabinets. I just snagged about 75 BF of hard maple (not select but lots of wide boards) for $2 a bf. My other close supplier sells only select grade for $5.10.

We generally lay the boards side to side then measure the width of them all together times 96 / 144. This particular stack the lengths varied from 94 - 100 inches.

Both suppliers figure board feet to the decimal. Ever since they invented calculators it really isn't that hard to do.

I would start looking for other suppliers. Lots of small sawmills and kilns are out there. Some are good and some aren't so go in cautiously.

Joe

[John Keane]

Laurie, I usually do my own computation. If for no other reason than to have at least a rough estimate of the measurement. I give them my actual measurement. If it comes out to xx.397 then that's what I tell them. The folks where I buy my wood are pretty generous and will usually round down rather than up. One place does charge a 10% surcharge for boards cut square on two edges. If you go there again to buy wood, I would ask then their pricing policy. Just because a person works at a lumber yard doesn't automatically translate to being a math wizard.

[Barry O'Mahony]

Both suppliers figure board feet to the decimal. Ever since they invented calculators it really isn't that hard to do.So do mine.

I'd look to take your business elsewhere.

[Vaughn McMillan]

I'd at least call, if not show up in person, to discuss it with them and explain (calmly) that they made a mistake. Personally, I can't help but think the sales guy believed he had an unaware woman customer, not unlike an unscrupulous mechanic selling muffler bearings to little old ladies. Still, I'd approach them as if it was an honest mistake.

A few months ago I realized I'd been charged $12.00/bf instead of the marked $10.00/bf on about 6 bf of maple at Rockler a few days prior. I called them up and told them they had made a mistake, and they were willing and able to credit my bank card for the difference on the spot. (I'm in there often enough that the guy on the phone remembered who I was, and that likely helped a bit.)

- Vaughn

[Wayne Gauthier]

I come up with 3.01 bdft also.. They had to charge her for a 96" long board, which does come up to 4 bdft exactly.

I.E.: 1" x 6" x 96" / 144"= 4bdft

[tod evans]

wayne, i`m confused here, why did "they" have to charge her for something she didn`t get? i feel that if this was intentional then the retailer is unethical......02 tod

[Per Swenson]

Hello Laurie,

Just my opinion, I would not take my business elsewhere.

Why should you should you suffer for their mistake or perfidy?

I would go back, point out their error, say something slightly

snide, such as "anyone can make mistakes, why even my auto

mechanic , just the other day wanted $100 for a oil change."

Silly him. Say it with a smile. We have a ad around here for

a mens clothing guy. His motto... A educated consumer is our best

customer.

Per

[Dave Richards]

Tod, I think Wayne meant "they must have charged her..." They didn't "have" to charge her for 4 bd ft and they shouldn't have.

Laurie, if you haven't done so, take the board back and see what they say about it. Unless you are satisfied that the price is still less than the competition when they charge you for 25% more lumber than you got, you should ask them to make it right.

Maybe their business practice is to round everything up to the next higher whole number to make up for the lower bd ft price. Maybe the guy just didn't know how to measure correctly (you did say he had to measure it twice) and another worker might be able to do it right for you.

[John Shuk]

So the Bd. ft. price is less but they screw you on the amount you actually get. So I'd say the price is probably about the same. I think it stinks too.

[Bruce Wrenn]

If the board was straight line sawn on one edge, add 17% to measurement in addition to the 14% shrinkage from drying. 17+14=31% that you are buying, but not getting. This makes the board about 4bdft. These are hardwood industry practices. I would rather retailer just add 31% to bdft price and then I know what I am paying for up front.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Laurie,

I like Per's take on this. If this doesn't bring you satisfaction a call to the department of weights and measures would not be out of the question. A 25% miscalculation is not acceptable. The measurements I would use would have been 1" X 6"X length that came out to just over 3 bf.

If you want to see a heated debate on this subject look for Bill Grumbine's post about the college art class at the lumber yard.

I would not be accusing nor rude but if they didn't correct it they would probably be very sorry when the inspector was done just based on your board and recite.

[Jerry Olexa]

Looks like 3 bd ft to me. They were incorrect in what they billed you..

[Vaughn McMillan]

If the board was straight line sawn on one edge, add 17% to measurement in addition to the 14% shrinkage from drying. 17+14=31% that you are buying, but not getting. This makes the board about 4bdft. These are hardwood industry practices. I would rather retailer just add 31% to bdft price and then I know what I am paying for up front.
These may be industry practices, but every hardwood dealer I've been to (granted, it's not a long list, and I'm typically buying S4S or S2S material) calculates the actual board feet of the piece I'm holding in my hand, not the board feet of the board some milling factory started with.

- Vaughn

[Chris Lee]

Laurie,
Do you mind sharing where you purchased this at? You can PM if you don't want to list it on the boards. He sounds like he just plain charged you for an extra board foot. Not acceptable in my opinion. Did you have them plane it at all. I have never received lumber purchased at 4/4 that was 13/16 unless they planed it for me and even then it is usually 7/8. There are a lot of good places in VA to get good lumber from people who won't try and cheat you. Did you buy just the one board? My guess is he thought you were some amateur he woud never see again and he took advantage of you. I would shop elsewhere. Not to mention straight grain maple can be had for less than 5 bucks just in many places in VA.

Chris

[Charlie Plesums]

A rough 1x6 board becomes 3/4 by 5 1/2 when surfaced, so all lumber yards I know charge you for 1 x 6

You bought a 73 inch board, cut from an 8 foot board, leaving a 23 inch scrap that nobody will buy. The few lumber yards I know that still custom-cut boards require that any "scrap" be at least 8 feet long, or you pay for the entire board. Sounds like you paid for the 8 foot board. Next time take the scrap with you, if you want it.

I do get irritated by lumber yards who offer a low price, then add 14% for shrinkage (that 6 inch rough board was probably 6 1/2 inches when green) and add 17% for the scrap made when they cut the edge straight... this is in addition to the loss from "1x6" or 4/4 x 6. I would rather see the price for something I can measure.

[Tom Jones III]

Was the board significantly wider at one end? Perhaps they measured the widest end. If this is the case, you need to point that out when they are measuring.

OTOH, I was at Clark's Hardwood in Houston this weekend and I was talking with their operations mgr as we looked at some walnut. I mentioned that this was a nice piece but it had a longer than usual crack at the end. He said he would write it up a foot short so that I didn't have to pay for it. When he wrote up my order he continued to do the same thing all throughout the order. Clarks is a little more expensive per board foot than the cheapest in town, but their selection and service like that makes up for it.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Laurie,

Did you have them cut the board or was it a short to begin with? In your initial post i would think it was a short and you did not have them cut it.

Bet you never thought it would getthis much discussion. :D

At least you are getting lots of info on other suppliers in your are aan probably get to meet some other Creekers in your area.

[Lee DeRaud]

These may be industry practices, but every hardwood dealer I've been to (granted, it's not a long list, and I'm typically buying S4S or S2S material) calculates the actual board feet of the piece I'm holding in my hand, not the board feet of the board some milling factory started with.Exactly.

The way some of you guys are describing "normal pricing practices", I'm surprised there isn't a surcharge if the original log wasn't square after the mill took the bark off.

[Scott Vigder]

I just emailed my brother who is a math professor at MIT. He ran the numbers through their Craig 9002 supercomputer and, after six minutes of number crunching, the computer came back with 3.003697854268985559787435 bd ft.

Does it really take a Supercomputer SIX Minutes to do this calculation???

Anyway, we all need laptops to take with us to the mill, so we can measure the boards, plug the numbers into a nifty little program, and show the dim-witted underpaid Home Depot reject exactly how many board feet are in the slab of vinyl he's purporting as Mahogony.

[Lee DeRaud]

Anyway, we all need laptops to take with us to the mill, so we can measure the boards, plug the numbers into a nifty little program, and show the dim-witted underpaid Home Depot reject exactly how many board feet are in the slab of vinyl he's purporting as Mahogony.Hmmm...that sounds like a seriously easy PDA application. I just might have to break down and get a SDK for the PalmOS.

Way easier than humping the laptop to the lumber yard.:cool:

[Mark Rios]

Does it really take a Supercomputer SIX Minutes to do this calculation???

Anyway, we all need laptops to take with us to the mill, so we can measure the boards, plug the numbers into a nifty little program, and show the dim-witted underpaid Home Depot reject exactly how many board feet are in the slab of vinyl he's purporting as Mahogony.


I'll assume everyone realized that my post was satirical (and completely fabricated). :o :D :rolleyes:


(Hey, it was April 1st)

[Wayne Gauthier]

Tod:: I did word that wrong, I should have said, They Must Have Charged her for 96"; instead of what she got. Thanks Dave.. you were right.

[Laurie Brown]

Laurie,
Do you mind sharing where you purchased this at? You can PM if you don't want to list it on the boards. He sounds like he just plain charged you for an extra board foot. Not acceptable in my opinion. Did you have them plane it at all. I have never received lumber purchased at 4/4 that was 13/16 unless they planed it for me and even then it is usually 7/8. There are a lot of good places in VA to get good lumber from people who won't try and cheat you. Did you buy just the one board? My guess is he thought you were some amateur he woud never see again and he took advantage of you. I would shop elsewhere. Not to mention straight grain maple can be had for less than 5 bucks just in many places in VA.

Chris

I bought it at Plywood & Plastics. I did not have them do anything to it. I sleected the baord off the rack of boards and bought it as is. I jointed and planed and cut it when I got home. This was my second visit, it was the same salesman, although I suppose he may not have recalled my first visit, where I asked all kinds of questions about MDF and he took me back to take a look at it.

[Laurie Brown]

A rough 1x6 board becomes 3/4 by 5 1/2 when surfaced, so all lumber yards I know charge you for 1 x 6

You bought a 73 inch board, cut from an 8 foot board, leaving a 23 inch scrap that nobody will buy. The few lumber yards I know that still custom-cut boards require that any "scrap" be at least 8 feet long, or you pay for the entire board. Sounds like you paid for the 8 foot board. Next time take the scrap with you, if you want it.

I bought a 73" inch board as it was on the rack, I did not cut anything off of it. Maybe someone else bought the other 23" and this was the scrap, I don't know. I sleected boards right off the rack as was. I bought two boards, this one of hard maple and one about a foot longer of soft maple, and was overcharged on that one, too.

[Charlie Plesums]

I bought a 73" inch board as it was on the rack, I did not cut anything off of it. Maybe someone else bought the other 23" and this was the scrap, I don't know. I sleected boards right off the rack as was. I bought two boards, this one of hard maple and one about a foot longer of soft maple, and was overcharged on that one, too.
I think we have run out of possible explanations, other than "you got taken." Sorry that it happened. Now it is your choice whether to find a different supplier or to go up the organization and complain.

[Alan DuBoff]

I'd like to say I won't buy from these guys any more, but they still have the lowest prices per board foot that I've found yet locally, and that's sad if you ask me. I can get lower prices if I want to drive 3 hours to another state, but I shouldn't have to do that to get decent wood at a decent price.Laurie,

I sympathize with you, I certainly do. My area has few hardwood dealers, and one that has a decent selection of exotic woods is an incredible ripoff. For some reason when you buy wood, there's all types of ways that folks find a way to measure some peculiar way to derive their price. These folks were no different.

After having 3 different problems with them, I finially just realized that people who are not honest, will not change and be honest. Those crooks will continue to short people, round up the measurements, and even sell lumber that isn't fully dried (this can bite you big time).

If you knowingly go back and shop with them, you invite yourself to buy from crooks, and in turn set yourself up for future problems.

There are some honest folks in the world, and even if you continue to buy from the folks that you had this incident with, it might be wise to at least consider looking for another source for wood. This type of incident helped me find a couple in my area.;)

[Dick Strauss]

How sad is this business? They advertise low prices and then have to rip people off to make money! I'd call and ask to speak with the owner/manager and let him/her know why I'll no longer be shopping with them. I'd also pass along the word to any fellow woodworkers in your area.

Find another wood resource ASAP. I'm sure the good folks on this forum will help you get what you need locally at a fair and reasonable price. There are also plenty of folks that mill (with portable BS mills) and dry lumber for extra money. I'll point you at a few forums that advertise wood harvested on a small scale like the HUT (Harvesting Urban Timber) folks. PM me if you want more info and I'll try to help!

[Scott Fernald]

I bought it at Plywood & Plastics. I did not have them do anything to it. I sleected the baord off the rack of boards and bought it as is. I jointed and planed and cut it when I got home. This was my second visit, it was the same salesman, although I suppose he may not have recalled my first visit, where I asked all kinds of questions about MDF and he took me back to take a look at it.

The business is called "Plywood & Plastics"??? No wonder he couldn't figure out what a board foot was! ;)

I use Northland Forest Products - they have locations in Troy and Manassas, VA. Not sure where you are in state but these guys are great to work with if you are close enough to use them. They have a web site if you search for it. No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.

[Byron Trantham]

My local distributor is very nice to work with. When I first started dealing with them, I was charged too much as well and I called about it. Sight un seen, they credited me what I claimed. I was leary but found out that over time, the scale went in my favor. As an example I bought 30 BF of Red Oak yesterday and I needed 1/2 sheet of 1/2" birch plywood. they just happened to have a piece that was 48x55 and they charged me $14.95. A whole sheet is $42. I was charged less than half for a sheet over a half a sheet in size. They have given me cut offs here and there. In the end, they are honest and reasonable. Today I have to buy 11 sheets of 3/4" and 4 sheets of 1/4" plywood. They offered to deliver it to me for free! BTW they use wooden ruler with a hook on it to measure the width. The ruler is marked out in BF based on length. Pretty straight forward.

[David Fried]

Sounds like lots of good advice, as usual. The first time I bought wood I thought I paid too much. When I went back they explained it was 4/4 although it measured 7/8 since they hit-and-miss plane it so you can see the grain. Likewise, the width is measured at the widest point.

Now I bring my cut list, tape measure, calculator, and pencil. When I find what I need we discuss what the size is. The width is the only thing that is questionable. Usually, if it is mostly 5" wide with just a wave or two sticking out to 6" I can get them to agree to charge me for 5". I record the measurements and calculate the board feet with the salesperson standing there. When we get to the register they use my numbers since they agreed to them.

These folks are reasonable and work with you so I am still a customer. Talk to your supplier, learn, and work with them. Feel free to ask questions.

[Roger Bailey]

LB, if this supplier is close to you and they are the only one then you will indeed need to do more business with them. If it was me I would just eat this overcharge and the next time you visit them I would take my tape measure, calculator, and note pad. Pick the boards you want and let the sales person know what you came up with for bf measurements. If they are different than yours ask them how they measured it. Then you can learn what you did wrong or if they made a mistake earlier, either way no one will get upset and you will get more favors from them the more you buy. This will make up for your present lose. If you measure your own boards in front of the sales person this will let them know you are an educated buyer and they will remember you.

[Jerry Olexa]

As the car rental lady said to Steve Martin in "Planes, Trains....": "you're Screwed". Sorry about that..

[Bruce Wrenn]

Laurie, Plywoods and Plastics is a member of the Worth Group. Our local supplier,Raleigh Hardwoods is also a member of the same group, and they use the 14 and 17% rule for pricing lumber. This the standard under hardwood grading rules. I know it SUCKS, but that is what industry standard says to do. Most RETAIL SUPPLIERS simply add the 31% to price before posting the price on lumber. Even though you are buying as a retail customer, the Worth group is a wholesale operation. In local store, they have an employee named Carolyn White. She is the best thing in their store! No matter what I need, she will try to get it for me. A few years back, I needed a special hinge that was only sold in lots of 100, and I needed two. She contacted supplier and had them send me two as a sample. What a great job of customer service!

[Brian Ross]

Longest thread I have ever seen about 1 bd ft of Lumber. Not wanting to slight anybody but buying 4 bd ft of lumber at a Lumber yard is like going into the corner store and buying a penny candy. Just my thoughts.
Brian

[Robert E Lee]

some only need 4 bd ft.
Bob

[Lee DeRaud]

Longest thread I have ever seen about 1 bd ft of Lumber. Not wanting to slight anybody but buying 4 bd ft of lumber at a Lumber yard is like going into the corner store and buying a penny candy. Just my thoughts.Kinda depends on what you're calling a "lumber yard". If you mean "a place where you go to buy enough 2x4s to build a house", true. But it doesn't take more than 4 board-feet of the right kind of wood to run up a three-figure tab...priced any cocobolo lately?

[Randy Meijer]

I am absolutely amazed at how many folks responding to this thread have branded the seller as a sleazy, incompetent crook and recommended abandoning them in favor of other vendors without offering them the opportunity to respond. I'm wondering how many of you folks would want your customers/clients to behave in a similar fashion given that "YOU" made a mistake or had some sort of a problem??

Clearly, the proper advice to Laurie, now that she has received a proper education in measuring wood, is to advise her to call or visit the store and present the possibility of a mistake to the store and see what sort of a response she gets. If they admit to a mistake and correct the error, then we find out they are only human and make mistakes like most of the rest of us. If they refuse to do anything, then is the time to brand them as crooks and look for alternative sources. Do unto others.............

[Laurie Brown]

What is this 14 and 17% rule? And how does it translate into me paying for 25% more lumber than I got?

[tod evans]

What is this 14 and 17% rule? And how does it translate into me paying for 25% more lumber than I got?

laurie, i`ve been buying lumber wholesale for a couple decades and have never heard of this "rule", nor have i ever payed more than the quoted amount for the lumber i purchase....02 tod

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Randy, I completely agree with you. Every business makes mistakes. How they respond to those mistakes is what's important. Laurie, you received an education on pricing and you should have gone back to them before naming them this in this thread. That was not fair of you. Maybe they are trying to rip you off. Or, maybe it was an honest mistake. Bottom line is that you just gave them a lot of bad PR where it may not have been justified.

It sound like this is an unpopular opinion but I don't think you have a right to complain until you give them a chance to respond.

[Tom Seaman]

Laurie,

Plywood and Plastics adds in a shrinkage amount, as someone speculated earlier. It is in the 17-20% range. I've had this argument with them before when I went to pay the first time I bought lumber from them. They'll tell you as many times as you ask that something is, say, $2.00 a bd ft, but when you pay it is $2.34. "It is $2.00 a board foot, we just increase the amount to account for shrinkage." :mad:

Just calculate in the extra % when comparing prices in the future. They have a nice selection of plywood, but I've found other suppliers for lumber in the area.

[tod evans]

Laurie,

Plywood and Plastics adds in a shrinkage amount, as someone speculated earlier. It is in the 17-20% range. I've had this argument with them before when I went to pay the first time I bought lumber from them. They'll tell you as many times as you ask that something is, say, $2.00 a bd ft, but when you pay it is $2.34. "It is $2.00 a board foot, we just increase the amount to account for shrinkage." :mad:

Just calculate in the extra % when comparing prices in the future. They have a nice selection of plywood, but I've found other suppliers for lumber in the area.

my opinion on this is that this is wrong and decietful! does their plastic "shrink" more or less than the kiln dried lumber? how about plywood?

find a real lumber supplier, one who doesn`t play silly games and is willing to place his cards on the table..02 tod

[Lee DeRaud]

find a real lumber supplier, one who doesn`t play silly games and is willing to place his cards on the table..02 todSecond that: life's too short.

Laurie, there's an additional question to ask yourself: if they're really the only supplier in your area, why on earth would they need to play these games? Sounds to me like they're trying to keep their bdft prices artificially low because of competition.

[Charles McKinley]

Is this "Shrinkage Rule" clearly posted? Unless there is signage I would complain to a state regulator. Unless there is a sign stating this price adjustment police they are falsly stating their price.

As to it on;y being 1 bf that is not true it also happened on the other board she bought. The issue is more on the percentage of error or "shrinkage rule" on their part: 25%! If their was a mistake so be it if this is some sort of policy let them come on and defend it.

[Bruce Wrenn]

At Raleigh Hardwoods, a sister company to Plywoods and Plastics, these rules are posted. What happens is when board was bought in the rough at sawmill, the bdft was the determining factor for cost and amount. The board will shrink on average 14 percent during drying process, and then straight line ripping one edge will lose another 17 percent. Someone, the retail customer- you, will have to pay for this. It is like going to burger joint and ordering a quarter pound burger. Does the burger weigh 1/4 pound when you get it, or did it weigh 1/4 pound before cooking? I bet you aren't getting a full quarter pound on your bun. Same with lumber. Again, most retailers just add the 31 percent to price along with their markup, and list this as final price.

[tod evans]

At Raleigh Hardwoods, a sister company to Plywoods and Plastics, these rules are posted. What happens is when board was bought in the rough at sawmill, the bdft was the determining factor for cost and amount. The board will shrink on average 14 percent during drying process, and then straight line ripping one edge will lose another 17 percent. Someone, the retail customer- you, will have to pay for this. It is like going to burger joint and ordering a quarter pound burger. Does the burger weigh 1/4 pound when you get it, or did it weigh 1/4 pound before cooking? I bet you aren't getting a full quarter pound on your bun. Same with lumber. Again, most retailers just add the 31 percent to price along with their markup, and list this as final price.

bruce, when i call the local wholesaler (who happens to run kilns) and order rough kd lumber the price i`m quoted is for kd rough lumber not what was once there in the most favorable conditions. for instance a 4/4 12" x 8` board will be sold as 8bf. because i order rough lumber that board had better come in at 1-3/16 in thickness, now if the board is tapered along the length say from 8" to 12" in all fairness it will be figured as a 10" board, not an 8 or 12. to me this is common sence and fair business practices. i believe that any company who deviates from obviously fair practices should not be patronized. if i`m ever shorted 31% or overcharged 31% the load will be refused and i will speak poorly about that supplier to anyone who cares to listen.....02 tod

[Marion Rood]

Measuring as you pick the wood and talking the guy as you do it is the best way to do it. I used to measure wood when I got it off the truck at home. One ex-supplier ended that. I felt that he overcharged me something close to one board. I called him and asking if I had left a board there, because the numbers didn't add up at home. He acted like I was trying to steal wood. I never went back.
I think learning how and where to buy wood is as important as learning how buy and use a tablesaw. We wouldn't be woodworkers without the wood.

[Jerry Bittner]

Looking at some of the responses to this post--did not look at them all--no one has addressed criteria some lumber companies use.

I recently bought some maple and when I got home I recalcualted what I bought and although I paid for what I thought was a 100 board feet, it was considerably less.

Checking with the supplier I found that this company charges for what they call shrinkage. Ift he lumber is rough, not dressed, the shrinkage factor is .92 percent. So for example your paying for a board foot but only getting .92 board feet.

For dressed lumber, the shrinkage factor is .82

Hope this helps.

[tod evans]

jerry, this practice is not right! trickery and deciet are tools of the government not lumber suppliers! i hope you have refrained from doing business with them? .02 tod

[Luther Oswalt]

For the most part I agree with Todd. I grew up in a family owned and operated building supply where we ran a saw mill, planer mill and had our own kiln. My father owned this business and he had some very basic policies one of which I think this world could use today. “The sale you make today is not today’s sale but is tomorrow’s sale.” … He firmly believed that the customer deserved to be treated fairly and with respect. We computed board feet the same for pine and all hardwoods. Lumber was considered to have a nominal size except for 5/4 which was computed as 5/4 … the real difference was in the price of the species and the quality of the lumber #1, #2 etc. He felt it was important to keep the computation easy for all concerned, including him! Lumber shrinks and that is the nature / property of the material … so what … what did I do that was so special that it required a large investment to control the shrinkage … Kiln dry it ... Kiln drying is what got many customers to come to our business to buy lumber from us … that was factored in the price anyway and we were competitive … The only part of Todd’s statement I didn’t agree with 100% was we would only charge for what the board could have been ripped down to …. Sorry for the length of this and how the lumber business has changed…
Leo

[Joe Jensen]

All of the commercial suppliers I use here in Phoenix use a "stick" to measure. They measure at the narrowest part of the board and round down the to the nearest 1/2". On length, they round to nominal length. Say the board is 99". They round down to 8'.

The retail sellers, noteably Woodworkers Source, measure the widest part of the board, round up to the next 1/4", and then measure the longest part of the board. This results in 10-15% more board feet for the same board.

I swear I've read the National Hardwood Lumber Association rules on how to measure before and they match what I've seen from the wholesale yards, but I can't find it on the WEB now...joe

[Howard Acheson]

There is no fixed rule for calculating board feet. You just have to see how the seller wants to do it. If you don't like how they calculate, go elsewhere.

For example, most consider both thickness and width to be nominal. Therefore a 3/4 x 5 1/2 inch board will be calculated as 1 x 6. My yard then rounds up to the nearest foot for length. But, they also tend to have a lower bdft unit price so it tends to work out fine.

[Joe Jensen]

I found a rule book at this link. Basically round to the nearest board foot. 3.5 is 4, 3.4 is 3. When measuring length, go nominal as 99 in is 8 ft. On width round up or down whichever is closest. Essentially average the error. On tapered boards, measure 1/3rd of the way up from the narrow end and use that width.

here is the link.
http://www.natlhardwood.org/pdf/2007_Rules.pdf

Of course, the seller gets to decide :)

[Mark Rios]

Everyone realizes that this thread was actually started over two years ago, right?