Grizzly Japanese Chisels

[Mike Henderson]

I have a nice set of western chisels but have been dissatisfied with how quickly the edge deforms when chopping, for example, dovetails. Japanese chisels are laminated with a layer of steel, which provides the edge, and a backing of iron or very low carbon steel (so low that it will not harden when heat treated). The heat treatment given to Japanese chisels produces a harder steel in the laminated blade. I’ve read the Rockwell hardness specifications of Japanese chisels but it’s hard to know what those extra few points on the Rockwell scale will mean when using Japanese chisels compared to good quality western chisels, such as the Two Cherries.

To get some “hands on” experience with Japanese chisels at a reasonable price, I purchased the set of ten chisels from Grizzly.
The chisels are marked in English measurements but they are definitely made as metric. When measuring the width of each of the chisels, the measurements were dead on on a metric scale. The set of chisels are 3mm, 6mm, 9mm, 12mm, 15mm, 18mm, 21mm, 24mm, 30mm, and 36mm. While you can relate these measurements to English, they can be quite a bit off. For example, the 24mm is marked 1 inch, when a real 1 inch would be 25.4mm, a significant difference in my opinion. This is not a problem for me since all my western chisels are metric, also, so I prefer to stay with metric chisels.

The Grizzly chisels came sharpened at a 30 degree bevel and the backs were flattened. I polished the backs and honed the edges but I could have used the chisels right out of the box.

One thing I really appreciated is that the sides are ground straight and parallel. I use the Veritas MKII honing guide and it uses the side to align the chisel for sharpening.

Upon close examination, I can see a “line” at the top of the blade, just below the neck. This appears to be the line between the iron back and the steel, which means that the steel actually goes from the blade edge all the way to the top of the neck – the iron is just forged on to the blade portion of the chisel. Apparently, when the chisel is heat treated, the neck is annealed more than the blade area so that it is not as brittle (and not as hard) as the blade edge lamination.

I think this is opposite to the way older hand forged Japanese chisels were made. I believe that the iron went from the blade up to the end of the neck, and the steel was forged to the iron. This was probably because steel was a lot more expensive than wrought iron. This was a problem because the iron could not be too soft or the neck would bend in use. The technique used by Grizzly allows them to tailor the characteristics of the steel through the heat treatment to the needs of the various parts of the chisel.

The chisels come coated with lacquer which should be removed prior to sharpening.

I do not like the handles. The hoop is at the very top of the handle and is uncomfortable when pushing the chisel with your hand. A much better design would be like the Two Cherries chisels where the hoop is set lower on the handle and the wood is rounded on the end. It is much more comfortable in my hand. When I have time, I may make new handles for the chisels which are more comfortable.

(side note) Perhaps the reason for the hoops being that high on Japanese chisels is that metal (iron or steel) hammers are traditionally used with them. There’s no reason that a metal hammer has to be used (that I can see) so I could make handles like the Two Cherries and use a wooden mallet on them.

I’m working on some chairs in Pecan and used the chisels to shape tenons and to clean out mortises. I found that the chisels cut well and the edge held up longer than my western chisels. The edge still deforms but not as quickly as on my western chisels. Some people reported that they had problems with the edges chipping on their Japanese chisels. I did not experience any chipping in the work I’ve done so far. I cannot tell what the Rockwell hardness of the Grizzly chisels is, but I suspect that they may be a bit softer than other Japanese chisels. The edges, while harder than my western chisels, are not as hard as I expected. Grizzly may be tempering these chisels a bit softer to avoid the chipping problems as people experienced with western chisels move to the Grizzly Japanese chisels.

Summary

Except for the handles, I’m satisfied with the Grizzly chisels. They appear to be well made, the edge holds up longer than the edge on my western chisels, and I have not experienced any chipping of the edges. I think that once I get around to replacing the handles, I’ll be very satisfied with them.

Mike

[Michael Fross]

Thanks for the update Mike. I've been looking at these myself for awhile. Happy chiseling.

Michael

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Mike,

I have often wondered about the quality of these chisels. Thanks for the review.

[Chris Lee]

Mike,

The base of the handle should round out some after you seat the hoop. After some time and some blows of the mallet the end should mushroom around the hoop and be more comfortable. This is the way most Japanese chisels come.

Chris

[Dave Burnard]

Upon close examination, I can see a “line” at the top of the blade, just below the neck. This appears to be the line between the iron back and the steel, which means that the steel actually goes from the blade edge all the way to the top of the neck – the iron is just forged on to the blade portion of the chisel. Apparently, when the chisel is heat treated, the neck is annealed more than the blade area so that it is not as brittle (and not as hard) as the blade edge lamination.

I think this is opposite to the way older hand forged Japanese chisels were made. I believe that the iron went from the blade up to the end of the neck, and the steel was forged to the iron. This was probably because steel was a lot more expensive than wrought iron. This was a problem because the iron could not be too soft or the neck would bend in use. The technique used by Grizzly allows them to tailor the characteristics of the steel through the heat treatment to the needs of the various parts of the chisel.


:eek: Wow, that sure sounds weird. Can you post a picture of that? If you can see it at all, you'd usually see the line demarking the end of the steel somewhere near where the neck starts at the top of the body. If the steel really goes all the way up the handle it's more likely because they used a continuous piece of pre-laminated stock to make the chisels rather than doing individual forge welds for each chisel. I've also seen chisel sets made from prelaminated stock where the steel stopped at the base of the neck - and this is what I had assumed the Grizzley chisels would be like.

Using iron for the body and neck is not a problem at all. Old western laminated chisels were also made this same way. You'd have to do some serious whacking to bend the neck of a chisel unless you were just using the wrong chisel for the job - like hitting a small paring chisel with a big hammer. If an old-time smith had a pile of really soft iron (say, wrought iron with lots of slag) he wouldn't have used it as-is to make chisels, he'd either make something like plane blades or knives with it, trade it for something a little harder, or do a few more foldings himself to harden it up (possibly mixing some harder iron in this process). On an inexpensive modern chisel they'd be using "mild steel" for the iron part anyway and mild steel is pretty hard compared to old wrought iron.

As Stu pointed out you have to tap the hoops down a 1/16" or so and mushroom the wood out a bit to "finish" the handle. If you hit the hoops much with a steel hammer they can develop really sharp edges and you can cut yourself when pushing them by hand.

I'd recommend sticking with a steel hammer, more bang per whack.

[Steven Wilson]

If you're going to push them by hand then get some paring chisels. I use western bench chisels (LN and Two Cherries) and japaneese paring chisels. I like a longer handle on a paring chisel and they're a dream for cleaning up dovetails.

[Dave Burnard]

Paring chisels are great.

Often it's faster to do some paring jobs with a bench chisel because it's already in your hand. That's not going to be very comfortable though until you do the initial setup for a japanese hooped chisel - it's part of making the tool "your own". Besides, the hoops will fall off soon if you don't do it. You can them all in a marathon session, or just as you need them. In my working set I have a 48mm bench chisel that's still got a screwdriver edge and an unset hoop (15 years later) - because if I need something that big I usually reach for a timber sized chisel or a big paring chisel.

In Japan you can pay extra to have someone set the hoops and finish sharpen them for you.

[Mike Henderson]

Here's a couple of pictures of the Grizzly chisels. One shows the line at the base of the neck and the other shows the setting of the hoops.

I'll take your advice and try to seat the hoops a bit lower. You can see in the picture that the hoop is pretty high.

Regarding paring chisels, when I work with chisels, I seem to have a mix of things to do - some chopping, some paring. I use the same chisels for all the techniques. I have some longer western chisels and can use those for paring but I was commenting on my usage of the Grizzly chisels. If you were suggesting that I purchase Japanese paring chisels, I may get to that one day, but right now I'm just taking baby steps with Japanese chisels.

I examined the chisel under a magnifying lens and I think you're correct, Dave, in the way they are made. It looks like the line goes all the way around the chisel blade which would imply that they are taking a laminated piece of iron/steel, cutting it to width and then forging the socket portion on to that laminated section. I can't tell for sure, but it certainly would make sense to manufacturer it that way.

One thing I didn't comment on is that I would prefer longer handles. The overall chisel is just a bit too short for my taste.

Mike

[Maurice Metzger]

There's a paragraph at the top of this page on setting the hoops:

http://japanwoodworker.com/page.asp?content_id=2744

I've never actually tried it, the only Japanese chisel I have is a "Sokosare Nomi" mortise clearing chisel which doesn't have a hoop.

[Dave Burnard]

Michael, that's interesting. I wasn't even thinking that they would attach the neck of the chisel separately - but that's sure what the picture indicates. Can you see the weld line in all of the chisels or just a few? Learn something new every day...

The ones I had seen were made from a strip of iron say 3 inches wide that had a strip of steel 2 inches wide laminated to it. You cut off a hunk about the width of the chisel you want off, shape the blade and then take the other end (the 1" that is just iron) and shape it into the tang of the chisel.

Japanese chisels look socketed, but they're closer to double hooped and tanged. The chisel has a tang that sticks up onto the handle, and the handle has a tapered ferrule on the end of the chisel that mates against the top of the chisel. On many chisels they machine a nice tight fit and then do some grinding after the handle is mounted to make the joint disappear. Pretty cool! (Makes it harder to replace a handle and get it to look the same though.)

On fancy chisels you'll often see the ferrule is completely separate from the chisel - no attempt made to blend them together. You can sort of see that in Stu's chisels in the background of his photo. Or take a look at http://www.japanesetools.com/tools/chisels/tatakinomi.php to see some handle/ferrule styles.

[Mike Henderson]

Dave, It's really hard to tell if there's a line all the way around - I think there is, but I could be seeing things. It'd be nice to get some other people's opinion. The manufacturing technique you describe could be the way the chisels are made.

In any case, yes, all the chisels have a line below the neck. On the smaller chisels it harder to see but it's there.

Mike

[Charlie Mastro]

I read the discription for setting the handles on JWW and they neglected one thing. I have always soaked the hoop ends in water after driving the hoops down 1/32 or so below the end of the chisel end. This softens the wood a little making it easier to peen the wood over the edges of the hoop. After doing that and letting them dry I then soak the ends in a little oil. Afterwards you can sand any rough edges you may have caused setting the hoops. Over time after pounding with a hammer you may get some more rough edges but those are easily taken off by filing or sanding as needed.

I have paring chisels too but find it easier to just use the bench chisel for most everything unless I have a lot of deciated paring to do.

[Mike Henderson]

For the Japanese chisel experts out there: Why doesn't the chisel manufacturer set the hoops to the proper depth? I can understand for hand made chisels, because it would take more time, but for machine made chisels, it should be an easy thing to have the equipment set the hoops a bit lower.

Just curious.

Oh, and one more question: Why is a metal hammer traditionally used with Japanese chisels? Why not a wooden mallet? Dave commented "...more bang per wack". Is that the only reason or is there some other reason(s)?

Mike

[Dave Burnard]

Hey Mike,

Stu's right about hoop setting being sort of a traditional thing that users like to do. It's akin to why a lot of chisels (in Japan anyway) don't even come sharpened - who knows what bevel engle the end user will want? In opening up a market in the west for japanese tools they've had to do things a bit differently. So chisels now almost always come presharpened, and some makers do offer preset (by machine) hoops. Why do western planes and chisel blades still come with machining marks on them and unflattened backs? Same thing.

If you ask me the real question is why do westerners use wooden mallets to hit morticing chisels? Carving gouges I can see hitting with a wooden or rubber wrapped mallet. For heavy morticing the wooden mallet would have to be huge to equal a 1000g hammer. Do we need such big-faced mallets so we don't miss our chisels? :rolleyes: Maybe it's just a historical preference... I really like the stubby "barrel" shaped japanese chisel hammers - try one, you'll like it! 300-400g is nice for small stuff, 400-600 for morticing, 600-1000 for timber framing.

Here's a bunch I made last year with the leftover heads I had drilled out for some classes Yataiki taught in California the last time he was here. They all started as round or square stock but I just experimented and made a variety of shapes. These are all in the 350-450g range, handles are hickory shaped with a drawknife. Hardly art but fun to make and use.

35476

[Charlie Mastro]

Oh, and one more question: Why is a metal hammer traditionally used with Japanese chisels? Why not a wooden mallet? Dave commented "...more bang per wack". Is that the only reason or is there some other reason(s)?

Mike

Well Dave had it right! A wooden mallet has more spring to it and is usually used on chisels that can't take being hit with a hammer. A hammer delivers more of it's power to the chisel. If you're trying to remove a lot of material fast the hammer is faster. "More bang per wack"

The large wooden mallet that Japanese carpenters use are for knocking the large wooden joints together. The western term is a commander. Often a very large mallet with iron hoops to keep the heads from spliting much like the hoops on a chisel.;)

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks, everyone, for the information. These are my first Japanese chisels so I'm just leaning.

I'll try a metal hammer - I understand the advantages - but it's hard to overcome the teaching of not using a metal hammer on a wooden handle.

Dave, those hammer weights seem heavy to me. I use a 10 oz (about 300g) mallet for the work I do (carving, dovetails, tenon trimming, etc.) and am pretty satisfied with it. I'll try to buy or fabricate a 500g metal hammer for mortise work and see how I like it. Anything heavier would just be too heavy for me. I guess that's just part of the "Different strokes for different folks."

Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Mike,

FWIW, I have a 375 gram (13 oz) Japanese barrel head chisel hammer. I find it's ok for some stuff, but have an old wood mallet that I prefer to use better, even with my Japanese chisels. I think a smaller brass head mallet, like the Glen-Drake that could fit more easily into my hand would be a better solution for a non-wood head.

Since I prefer wood, I'm planning to build a puzzle head mallet, using the infamous double dovetail joint. http://www.ilovewood.com/woodworker.htm

[Mike Henderson]

Alan, That mallet will be an interesting project. Please post a picture here when you complete it.

One more question - I spent some time today setting the hoops on my chisels. Several of you said that hoops are not set at the factory because different people prefer to set them at different depths.

My question is "What difference will you feel in using chisels with different hoop depth settings?" That is, why do people have different preferences?

It seems like for just hitting the chisel with a hammer or mallet, slight differences in the depth setting wouldn't make much difference. Perhaps when you use the chisel for paring the shape of the dome on the top of the handle might feel different.

If there's not much difference between small differences in the depth setting, there would be an advantage for the manufacturer to set the hoops to some standard depth, maybe three mm or so. It would make it easier for the majority of people who purchased the chisels.

Mike

[Charlie Mastro]

I believe this is what you are looking for.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JACH5302.XX&Category_Code=TBBCND

[Charlie Mastro]

Perhaps when you use the chisel for paring the shape of the dome on the top of the handle might feel different.

Mike

I think you have answered your own question here. And in your case where the end of the handle was what bothered you it seems this would be the perfect fix.

Alan....

I agree that when carving a wooden mallet would work better but again if you are trying to remove a lot of wood quickly a hammer can't be beat. Each tool has it's own best use. And I do perfer a barrel hammer and I just choke up on it sometimes.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I used bocote (turning block 6 X 6 X 2 (or 3) weighs about 8 lbs), 3 X 3 X 2+, weighs about 2 lbs. I use this mallet primarily for setting plane blades in dai so the blade won't be deformed, you'd be amazed how useful a 900-1000 gram hammer/mallet is. So, while I don't use this for pounding chisels so far, I think it could work fine. I normally use a 1 lb/450 g metal hammer for mortising with mortising chisels.

Pam

[Mike Henderson]

It seems unusual that the majority of users of Japanese chisels would have preferences for slight differences in the depth of the hoop, and perhaps in the shape of the dome on the top of the handle, but this preference never developed in western chisels. As far as I can tell, the majority of people who use western chisels do not modify the handles (I'm sure some do), but use them as supplied by the factory.

And as far as I can tell, you use Japanese chisels pretty much the same way as western chisels.

Based on this, it seems that individual preference is not a good explanation of why the hoops are not set at the factory on Japanese chisels. Perhaps it's more of a traditional thing, based on the fact that most Japanese chisels in the past were produced by small organizations who did not have the time or equipment to set the hoops further down on the handles.

(Oops, Stu, you and I were posting at exactly the same time. Seems we both think alike.)

Mike