Tenon loose or integral?

[Duan Packard]

Am making a sofa table/hall table with apron which will include
3 small drawers. How to join the apron to the legs?
David Marks uses lots of loose tenons but he has that multirouter
which makes the mortise easy on the narrow parts.
But which will be best.
Length of front apron approx 40 inches and side aprons will be 9 inches.
Thanks

Duan Packard

[Rich Person]

I guess it depends on what you are working with. A floating tenon glued in long grain to long grain should be as strong as an integral tenon. Theoretically you also save stock (waste from the integral tenon cut). I cut my mortises on a router table, so theoretically if you leave the fence set up, you can cut both mortises and they should line up perfectly. If using an integral tenon, they may not match up as well.

Having said that I have not switched over . . . yet, and still use integral tenons. However, I'm probably heading toward using floating tenons for most of my future projects.

[David Eisenhauer]

Either way you have to cut out the mortices. Jigging up your router is a good way to go and it is easy to cut out tenon stock on the TS and then roundover the edges to fit the mortices. I find floating tenons much easier, faster and less prone to mistakes than traditional fixed tenons. An article years ago in (I think) FWW pronounced them plenty strong enough. The article was mainly intended to prove/disprove the effectiveness of (what was at that time a newer technology) biscuit joinery, but most methods of common M/T joinery were tested as well. The test results revealed that the biscuit method of M/T joinery was a very valid method and suffered strengthwise (in comparison to tradional fixed MT) only a very slight bit. Best of luck.

[Dan Oliphant]

Duan, It won't matter one darn bit as long as the grain is oriented in the correct direction and the woods are the same. If you are able to produce either tennon well, then pick the one you prefer and have fun.

[Mike Cutler]

Personally, I prefer integral, because that's the way I learned :rolleyes:, ;)

I do however like Mark Singer's loose tenon method/style/design? It looks to be fast, simple, and most importantly repeatable.
It doesn't take a $2500.00 dollar Multi Router to make loose tenons. It would be kinda fun though:D

Do a site search in the General Woodworking and Powertools forum and look at Mark's method of loose tenon joinery. It's pretty slick.

[Duan Packard]

Thanks for all the replys.
Maybe I have learned something.

Duan

[Mark Singer]

Duan,
If you think about it the mortise end of the joint is potentialy the weakest side....that said , if you have it on both sides the joint has the same strength...Loose tenons are easier to make ...so go loose....I will do both and have preferences for each...

[Gary Curtis]

Fine Woodworking (issue #98, Feb '93) did a story on floating tenons. I'm waiting in the wings for the soon-to-be released Festool Domino system. They already put it on the market in Europe and are completely sold out. The delay here is for North American safety organizations to approve the device.

The Domino is their version of floating tenons. They make them from the same material as biscuits, so the tenons swell with glue. The machine chops out the mortise. A lot of us are waiting for news on how it works.

As to strength, FWW said there wasn't much strength difference between traditional M & T and floating tenons.

Gary Curtis

[Kent Parker]

I think the fixed tenon acheives better linear strength due to connecting fibers that run un-interupted to the apron. Perhaps in small dimensions the difference is negliable due to the smaller bundles of fiber, not so in larger pieces.

Cheers,

Kent

[Chris Barton]

Repeatedly studies have shown that PVA glues are much stronger than the surounding wood. No matter what style you use you end up with a cross grain glue up on the mortice side (usually the verticle leg) of a joint. Use the method that is easiest or that you like to use the most. I have used both and only had fialures in traditional M&T jointery in chairs which are the highest stressed furniture there is. No that I have a morticer on my big combo machine, I use floating tennons exclusively.

[Kent Parker]

Repeatedly studies have shown that PVA glues are much stronger than the surounding wood.

Chris, I'd be interested if you could direct me to any of those studies.

FYI, I found this statement on the web site of Franklin Internation, the makers of Titebond. "All PVA glues are prone to "creep" or slowly stretch under long term loads, and are not recommended for structural applications".

Interesting heh?

I think in the long run both would work for his application as a typical table is not "loaded" long term... Close scrutiny is a trait I can't deny and a necessary part of my profession. Sometimes I just can't turn it off.

Cheers,

Kent

[Chris Barton]

Chris, I'd be interested if you could direct me to any of those studies.

FYI, I found this statement on the web site of Franklin Internation, the makers of Titebond. "All PVA glues are prone to "creep" or slowly stretch under long term loads, and are not recommended for structural applications".

Interesting heh?

I think in the long run both would work for his application as a typical table is not "loaded" long term... Close scrutiny is a trait I can't deny and a necessary part of my profession. Sometimes I just can't turn it off.

Cheers,

Kent


Kent,

No matter which system you use you will have one side of the joint that is a cross grain glue application. So, if creep is a problem then both joints will experience the same manifestations. Just remeber, you can't prove a negative. I will attempt to find the articles in e-format so they can be posted.

[Chris Barton]

Chris, I'd be interested if you could direct me to any of those studies.

FYI, I found this statement on the web site of Franklin Internation, the makers of Titebond. "All PVA glues are prone to "creep" or slowly stretch under long term loads, and are not recommended for structural applications".

Interesting heh?

I think in the long run both would work for his application as a typical table is not "loaded" long term... Close scrutiny is a trait I can't deny and a necessary part of my profession. Sometimes I just can't turn it off.

Cheers,

Kent


Well, here is the first article that supports that loose tenon jointery is just as strong as traditional methods...

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/articles/mortiseandtenon.cfm

[Chris Barton]

Chris, I'd be interested if you could direct me to any of those studies.

FYI, I found this statement on the web site of Franklin Internation, the makers of Titebond. "All PVA glues are prone to "creep" or slowly stretch under long term loads, and are not recommended for structural applications".

Interesting heh?

I think in the long run both would work for his application as a typical table is not "loaded" long term... Close scrutiny is a trait I can't deny and a necessary part of my profession. Sometimes I just can't turn it off.

Cheers,

Kent


Interesting that you found that information on their site. Here is a link to their site where they say that "wood failure" occurs 57% of the time in joint failures:

http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductIntroTB.asp