Any homemade saws?

[Chris Barton]

I was wondering today just how many, if any, folks have made their own carcase or dovetail saws and if so, where you got you blade from? Also, I think we would all like to see some of these handmade beauties.

[Steve Clardy]

Have you seen Mike W's saws?

[Bob Noles]

Chris,

Let me introduce you to Mike Wenzloff ..... He's the best there is around these parts.

Look up some of his posts to see his beauties.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Did I hear my name?

http://wenzloffandsons.com/saws/jz/jz_0006a.jpg

Or maybe something larger?

http://wenzloffandsons.com/saws/db/db_0001.jpg

Or perhaps a 22" panel saw:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/saws/pe/pe_0006a.jpg

Or...or...:)

But y'all have made me blush. No I better go out and work some of the color out of my cheeks...

Take care, Mike

[Leif Hanson]

I've been known to make a saw or two... :D

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/dovetail/batch4/coco-8.jpg


http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/dovetail/batch4/beech-12-1.jpg

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/dovetail/batch4/beech-12-2.jpg

The blades, backs, and split nuts come in raw form from McMaster Carr...

Leif

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi again, Chris.

Leif posting reminded me. Go to his web site. Under the Back Saw pages Leif gives part numbers for the steel, templates for spacing at various ppi, etc. Great tutorials really.

Leif--so when you going to open up a waiting list again? I've missed the last two...

Take care, Mike

[Jimmy Newman]

Mike,
Did you "tension" the blade of that panel saw? I've heard a little bit about the tensioning process but haven't been able to find a really good explanation of how it's done. Those saws look great - Leif's too - it really makes me want to start trying it out!

Thanks,
Jimmy

[Alan DuBoff]

I've been known to make a saw or two... :D Bravo, bravo! It's about time you start to come out of the closet again!;)

Nice looking saws Leif!

The middle one looks similar to what I have seen referred to as a "Phillidelphia" Handle, by some, and was trying to explain that to Mike recentely.

Have you ever heard it referred to as such?

There were also some makers in Britan that made saws with similar handles as well, possibly Moulson, or another popular maker of yesteryear.

[Mike Wenzloff]

...The middle one looks similar to what I have seen referred to as a "Phillidelphia" Handle, by some, and was trying to explain that to Mike recentely...
It's a slightly modified version of a Faust & Winebrenner saw. As to who and where they were located is a bit of a mystery to me. But there are some examples floating around...

Take care, Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

Did you "tension" the blade of that panel saw?
Hi Jimmy. Thank you for the kind words.

The short answer regarding tensioning is, no.

The longer version has to do with whether a saw needs it or not. Ideally a saw is both flexible and retains proper tension in a cut. That is, does not vibrate excessively [certainly not due to the saw anyway] and or kink in the cut. A loose blade needs tensioned.

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Mike,

I know there were variations on that style handle, just not sure of all whom made them like that. Disston did make some, or acquired a company that made handles like that, which is why I think I have seen this referred to as a Phillidelphia handle.

Before the OT police show up, I better post a saw that I made. This one is made from a Crown 8" Gent's saw, handle was cut off and new one added out of maple burl. I gave it away for galootaclaus 2005:

http://www.softorchestra.com/woodworking/tools/saws/handsaws/galootaclaus_2005/small_left_side.jpg (http://www.softorchestra.com/woodworking/tools/saws/handsaws/galootaclaus_2005/)

http://www.softorchestra.com/woodworking/tools/saws/handsaws/galootaclaus_2005/

[Mike Wenzloff]

Ha, it's not off-topic, but the picture police [Tyler] would be out to get you <g>. Your gift was well received by its recipient, too...

Yeah, the Disston #8 back saw is similar and the "oddity" of the even more elaborate saw at the Disstonian just prior to the #8 is kinda neat. The one drawback to Erv's books are the lack of pictoral representations. Wish it had 'em.

But you should see one that we may be making from Moxon...

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Ha, it's not off-topic, but the picture police [Tyler] would be out to get you.<g>I just slipped one in there before he comes around, wouldn't want to upset him.:p

Truth be told, I'm not a saw maker and only played one to make a gift...

Interesting that the above saw did play a role in getting to my current saws you made for me. So, there was an evolution in the course of doing that.

I know your name came up in this thread, and I know that you can't say much about your saws per the guidelines, but I can.

If you have been contemplating building your own saw because you're intimidated by having to cut the blade slot currectly, or drill the holes properly, Mike has kits which will enable you to focus on the piece that takes the majority of time, and what is the most rewarding for most...the handle.

They come with blades all shaped and sharpened, drilled blade/handle, and you only need to shape and fit the handle.

If you want to build the entire saw yourself, post and Mike and/or Leif will probably offer advice as well. Building saws is certainly not rocket science.
</g>

[Chris Barton]

First, thanks to everybody for posting to this inquery, the information has been great and I knew that the sages here could provide lots of wisdom. Second, Mike, Leif and Alan, what incredible handmade saws you have posted! I tried to find a website for Leif but, with no luck. Mike, I have seen some of your saws in previous posts and have always admired them. I only have a passing interest in making a saw now but, that also depends on difficulty factor and such. I am assuming that the blade steel you buy is "toothless" and that you are cutting it the teeth and providing the set for the specific tool that you make. Is that correct?

[Tyler Howell]

A lot a talent in da house!!!
Beautiful work Gents:cool:

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Chris,

Leif's address is:
http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/index.html
Direct to the backsaw pages:
http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/dovetail/bs-index.htm
Direct to the handsaw use, sharpening and care pages:
http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/sawbasics.htm

The direct link to the backsaw page gives the raw steel numbers from McMaster-Carr, I believe, the brass etc.

He also has some printable graphic templates for various ppi that you can use to mark out where to start filing for each tooth, etc.

Paul Womack [aka, BugBear] has collated a lot of this info and also made templates to help controll fleam angles while filing:
http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_sharpen.html

It is not a terribly difficult thing to do, the making of a saw. The devil is in the details as regards the handle shaping. Cutting the kerf is like cutting a deep tenon by hand, so is doable--but go slow else the saw plate will be crooked. As well, the first saw you handcut teeth into may not be "perfect," whatever that is. But I'll be willing to bet it will cut well.

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

First, thanks to everybody for posting to this inquery, the information has been great and I knew that the sages here could provide lots of wisdom. Second, Mike, Leif and Alan, what incredible handmade saws you have posted! I tried to find a website for Leif but, with no luck. Mike, I have seen some of your saws in previous posts and have always admired them. I only have a passing interest in making a saw now but, that also depends on difficulty factor and such. I am assuming that the blade steel you buy is "toothless" and that you are cutting it the teeth and providing the set for the specific tool that you make. Is that correct?Don't lump me with those guys who really know how to make saws!:eek:

Seriously, most anyone could do it, with only a few tools. At least what I did, since I used a blade from a saw I bought.

I you were nice to Mike, he might help you with blade, back, handle, whatever you need and whatever level you want to work at. Mike is flexible in that sense.

My reccomendation is that if you have never shaped teeth before, have someone with a foley stamp them out for you, even if you sharpen it by hand. Mike does have a foley retoother. Leif might have a retoother also, I'm not sure.

[Chris Barton]

Hi Chris,

Leif's address is:
http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/index.html
Direct to the backsaw pages:
http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/dovetail/bs-index.htm
Direct to the handsaw use, sharpening and care pages:
http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/sawbasics.htm

The direct link to the backsaw page gives the raw steel numbers from McMaster-Carr, I believe, the brass etc.

He also has some printable graphic templates for various ppi that you can use to mark out where to start filing for each tooth, etc.

Paul Womack [aka, BugBear] has collated a lot of this info and also made templates to help controll fleam angles while filing:
http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_sharpen.html

It is not a terribly difficult thing to do, the making of a saw. The devil is in the details as regards the handle shaping. Cutting the kerf is like cutting a deep tenon by hand, so is doable--but go slow else the saw plate will be crooked. As well, the first saw you handcut teeth into may not be "perfect," whatever that is. But I'll be willing to bet it will cut well.

Take care, Mike


Thanks so much Mike! I did try to find this information on my own but, perhaps I am retarded (the retarded doctor). I don't know if I am ready to build saws but, it is always so interesting to see what ohters have done! Thanks again!

Chris

[Chris Barton]

Don't lump me with those guys who really know how to make saws!:eek:

Seriously, most anyone could do it, with only a few tools. At least what I did, since I used a blade from a saw I bought.

I you were nice to Mike, he might help you with blade, back, handle, whatever you need and whatever level you want to work at. Mike is flexible in that sense.

My reccomendation is that if you have never shaped teeth before, have someone with a foley stamp them out for you, even if you sharpen it by hand. Mike does have a foley retoother. Leif might have a retoother also, I'm not sure.

Alan,

I thought your saw was as nice as the others! Thanks for the guidance and I will take everyone's wisdom to heart!

Chris

[Tim Barker]

Chris,
A dovetail saw is not a difficult thing to make. I've made several out of material from the local hardware store.

35329

Here are some that I've made using these materials.

35330
35331

Tim

[David Stonner]

Tim,

Nice looking saws. I have been looking for a handle outline, but can't find one anywhere. I don't have a saw to copy. Did you just eyeball yours, or trace it from a handle you already had? Also, does anyone know a place on the web where a person could download a full scale line drawing of a pistol grip handle similar to the ones above? Everyone's work looks great!

dave



Chris,
A dovetail saw is not a difficult thing to make. I've made several out of material from the local hardware store.

35329

Here are some that I've made using these materials.

35330
35331

Tim

[Tim Barker]

Dave,
I took quite a bit of time developing the handles. They are composites of many different designs that I saw on the web. If you notice, the hang angle of the walnut handled saws are each different so that the hand would be placed at a good position. I made templates of the different handles maybe I could scan one in for you. What size blade are you looking at using?

Tim

[Michael Morin dit Boucher]

Tim,

What are your component parts...its hard to tell from the pic....what did you use for the saw blade?...:confused:

[David Stonner]

Tim,

I've got a 10-inch backsaw that says "Tyzack and Sons no. 120" on the brass, the nuts are there, but the handle has been broken off. I have no idea what the hang angle should be or even what the shape should be without actally seeing a backsaw in person. It is too hard for me to eyeball it off of a photo. If you still have one of your templates, I would be very appreciative for a scanned copy of it.

Thanks so much for your help,
Dave

[Bob Noles]

Tim,

Beautiful work!..... I mean absolutely BEAUTIFUL.

Thanks for sharing these pictures. I really like the handles especially.

[Tim Barker]

Michael,
I used the drywall knife for the blade. It is 0.020" 1095, high carbon, spring steel. I use a piece of 3/4' or 1" 14 gauge, right-angle steel for the back.

Tim

[Tim Barker]

Dave,
Did you want a open or closed handled design?
Tim

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan,

I thought your saw was as nice as the others! Thanks for the guidance and I will take everyone's wisdom to heart!

ChrisThanks Chris, it was just that it took me a long time to do as I did it all by hand with a couple rasps and a couple files. I started out with thicker than needed piece of wood, so that added more time to the effort. I even cut the sillouette of the handle out with a coping saw (that process will humble many folks;-), etc...

I was inspired to do this for a gift to give away for galootaclaus on the oldtools list.

The recipient is actually quite a woodworker, in fact, I was a bit intimidated to get his name in the draw, I thought Santa Claus had a brainfart...;)

I learned a lot, and many folks have helped when I had questions, such as Leif Hanson, Mike Wenzloff, and others.

The recipient also owns a Independence dovetail saw, which I had suspected as he's been a member of the oldtools list for quite a while. He said he likes my little saw better, and that they both cut well, just that mine has a nicer handle. I think that's subjective, and Pete Taran made pretty nice handles on the Independence saws. I wouldn't expect him to tell me he didn't like it though.;-)

I had this idea for that handle for quite some time, it allows you to point your thumb and forefinger together to line up the saw. It seemed to work but I didn't get to use it too awfully much. Even though the saw was new, it was useless in hardwoods until it was sharpened by hand and some set was taken out. It needed more set taken out, but I was conservative on that as I felt the recipient might have a preference. It cut straight, it tracked well, and was sharp when it left.

One day I might make some more saws for myself, but after seeing Mike Wenzloff's work I thought it would be good to have him do mine for me instead of me doing the handles myself.

[Paul Erickson]

Dave,
I took quite a bit of time developing the handles. They are composites of many different designs that I saw on the web. If you notice, the hang angle of the walnut handled saws are each different so that the hand would be placed at a good position. I made templates of the different handles maybe I could scan one in for you. What size blade are you looking at using?

Tim

Hi Tim, having scans of your handles would be greatly appreciated.

cheers, Paul

[Chris Barton]

Hi Tim, having scans of your handles would be greatly appreciated.

cheers, Paul

Hi Paul and Others,

Here is a schematic of a saw handle that Kurt Loup shared with me. It looks identical to the handle on my LN crosscut.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Here's a PDF on a 1/4" grid which should printout very close to real-size.

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/open_handle.pdf

Take care, Mike

[David Stonner]

Tim,

I'm not really sure. I think the open handled ones look better, but do you think a saw of this size should have open or closed? If you have both, I might just hold the printouts up next to the blade and see which one looks best. But if I only had one to go with, I'd say open because I think they look better.

Thanks,
Dave

[David Stonner]

Wonderful. Thanks to you and Chris very much.

Dave

[Mike Wenzloff]

Tim,

I'm not really sure. I think the open handled ones look better, but do you think a saw of this size should have open or closed? If you have both, I might just hold the printouts up next to the blade and see which one looks best. But if I only had one to go with, I'd say open because I think they look better.

Thanks, Dave
Hi Dave,

Here's a 14" 12 ppi cross cut with 3 1/2" of usable depth. Works a treat. I thickened the bridge between the cheek and handle a little in case the stress would cause a problem. I also lowered the hang angle as a saw of this size shouldn't have as much downward pressure a higher hang does.

But if you like an open handle, make it. You can alter any pattern to account for the stress.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/saws/temp/cus_tenon.jpg

Take care, Mike

[Tim Barker]

I traced around my templates and drew a 1 inch grid. You may need to play with the scale to get the proportions right. These patterns work well for a ten inch saw. Enjoy.

Tim

35431

35432

[Bob Smalser]

I've heard a little bit about the tensioning process but haven't been able to find a really good explanation of how it's done.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=30462&highlight=tensioning

Taper grinding and tensioning a handsaw are probably why L/N wisely sticks to backed saws. These features were not Disston marketing gimmicks.

Today for 200 dollars you can go to England and buy the best handsaw currently made - a Roberts and Lee taper ground handsaw about the equivalent of a Disston 8, their second quality saws. The blade thickness averages 40+ thousandths at the edge.

A Disston 12, 16, and their other top-line saws like the 120, in turn, were made in the next smaller gage than the D8, with edge thicknesses well under 40 thousandths and greater degrees of taper.

The difference between the 8 and the 12 was how they made such a thin #12 blade usable without kinking, and that difference was in the amount of hammering the blade received to tension it. Nobody is doing that today to the same degree except in the better Japanese saws. Many lesser saws today made of straight-gage plate achieve their "tension" from thickness and hardness.


But as I show in my link, you can remove the kink from a blade and you can retension it. The kinks can be difficult, but general retensioning isn't. The modern notion that saw hammering is arcane voodoo only applies to circular sawblades. Like most of this, you just have to practice.

[David Stonner]

Tim,

Thanks so much for sharing your handle designs. I appreciate it.

Dave



I traced around my templates and drew a 1 inch grid. You may need to play with the scale to get the proportions right. These patterns work well for a ten inch saw. Enjoy.

Tim

35431

35432

[Jim Dunn]

Tim,

Thanks so much for sharing your handle designs. I appreciate it.

Dave

As do I, thanks again.

Jim

[Kurt Loup]

Hi Paul and Others,

Here is a schematic of a saw handle that Kurt Loup shared with me. It looks identical to the handle on my LN crosscut.

I don't take credit for this. I found it on the net doing an extensive google search for saw handle shapes. Luckily I saved the image, because subsequent searches failed to find the site where I found the image, so I can't give proper credit to the person who created the image.

Kurt

[paul womack]

Tim,

I've got a 10-inch backsaw that says "Tyzack and Sons no. 120" on the brass, the nuts are there, but the handle has been broken off. I have no idea what the hang angle should be or even what the shape should be without actally seeing a backsaw in person....
Sorry to be late;

I am sure the experts in this thread will help you make and fit a wonderful custom handle.

If you want to know what the original handle looked like, click here...

http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=4833
http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=4832

BugBear

[Dave Anderson NH]

Welcome Bugbear. I have always been hoping you'd show up here some day. Must be Alice's evil influence.:D

[Mike Wenzloff]

Welcome Bugbear. I have always been hoping you'd show up here some day. Must be Alice's evil influence.:D
Yeah, welcome BB! Thanks for the links.

And yup, gotta watch out for Alice's influence that's for sure ;)

Take care, Mike

[Ed Nelson978]

Mike and others, How do you fab the brass back? is the blade slot cut or folded? For either process can you describe how it is done? If folded, I would guess you would use a brake. The other question is where do you get the saw nuts?

[Ken Bryant]

I'm a great LN fan -- I have an embarrassing number of their planes, and I love them all -- but the two saws I bought from them have been a disappointment. The best saws I've ever used, by far, have been the two build by Mike Wenzloff, as recommended by Christopher Schwarz in the Woodworking Magazine blog. Lie Nielsen is much easier to deal with -- Wenzloff's planes take FOREVER to get shipped -- but they're worth waiting for.

[Alice Frampton]

'Mnot a weevil 'fluence. Well only sometimes... :cool:

Cheers, Alf

[Kurt Loup]

Mike and others, How do you fab the brass back? is the blade slot cut or folded? For either process can you describe how it is done? If folded, I would guess you would use a brake. The other question is where do you get the saw nuts?

Ed,

I took the easy way out on the saws I have made. I epoxied the brass back onto the blade stock. This required the least amount of investment in tools. No brake to bend the brass or a milling machine to mill the slot are needed. Tim Hoff, from what I understand, epoxies and screws the brass to the blade stock on the saws he makes. So far, I haven't had any problems. A member of another forum made the split nut screws for me. Send me a PM and I'll give you more info if interested.

Kurt

http://www.loup-garou.net/sitebuilder/images/backsaw2-600x350.jpg

[paul womack]

Welcome Bugbear. I have always been hoping you'd show up here some day. Must be Alice's evil influence.:D
Heh. Alice pointed to this thread, and I happened to have an original saw, so I felt I should contribute.

I really do not have time to be on "all" the handtool forums.

BugBear

[Mike Wenzloff]

Mike and others, How do you fab the brass back? is the blade slot cut or folded? For either process can you describe how it is done? If folded, I would guess you would use a brake. The other question is where do you get the saw nuts?
HI Ed,

We do both types of backs. The slotted ones are done on a mill using a slotting cutter. The folded ones are sheared from plate and folded to about 35 degrees of closed on a large press using dies, pressed to near closed on another press and then its anvil and hammer from there.

The bolts and nuts I have done by a local machinist.

Take care, Mike

[Ed Nelson978]

Kurt, Thanks! I think I may have some time this weekend to play around. If I can't come up with any ideas I'll definitely shoot you a PM!

[Roy Griggs]

Like Alan D. I've made some handles for small saws, a set of Paragon's and a Garlick, two dovetail, two tenon (crosscut and rip). I used a modified version of the open handle in Kingshott's Making and Modifing Woodworking Tools.
Open or closed? I prefer open, but on my large tenon saw Mike put a London style closed handle and it is soooo sweet. Not to mention the absolute best saw I've ever used; it edges out my no. 2 favorite which is my small tenon saw, acquired as a kit from Mike...

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/attach/jpg.gif

Mike's saws both handles are Congo Teak....

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/attach/jpg.gif

My handles...
http://www.shavingsandsawdust.com/projects/smallSawHandles/smallSawHandles.asp

roy

[Steve Clardy]

Nice batch of saws there Roy!!

I just sent MikeW a couple of staircase saw blanks, so he can do his magic on them.:)

[Alan DuBoff]

Like Alan D. I've made some handles for small sawsI think yours are nicer Roy, but don't tell George I said that...:D

Now, you can't get outta here without showing more pics of the bayonette style saw. I like that, and can't see if you have a finger channel along the right side or not.

How do you like it?

(still waiting to get to the perfect handles one day...but using the old ones in the meantime!)

[Derek Cohen]

I'm a great LN fan -- I have an embarrassing number of their planes, and I love them all -- but the two saws I bought from them have been a disappointment. The best saws I've ever used, by far, have been the two build by Mike Wenzloff, as recommended by Christopher Schwarz in the Woodworking Magazine blog. Lie Nielsen is much easier to deal with -- Wenzloff's planes take FOREVER to get shipped -- but they're worth waiting for.

Here is a link to a comparison of a LN and IT/Wenzloff dovetail saws.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=35968&highlight=father+son

Regards from Perth

Derek