Framing nailer "Hole Locating Tool" question

[Marty Walsh]

As some of you might recall, I'm getting ready to break ground on my new shop. With the help of Frank and others on here, I've decided on wooden floors with the aid of pier and beam construction.

One of the challenges I'm facing is dealing with the 250+ joist hangers that are involved. I just completed a deck project on the back of the house (had to have a new spa to relax in after a long day building...:p , oh and pictures to follow). Anyway, the deck only had 52 hangers, so I used a hammer and nails. After dealing with those hangers, and all that hammering, I'm looking for a way to make the joists in the shop less painful and quicker to install. So here's my question...

The Simpson installers guide has the following in it regarding the use of a framing nailer on joist hangers:

"NO Framing nail-gun nails unless:
1. Correct diameter and length
2. Driven with a hole locating tool (finds the hole)
DO NOT OVERDRIVE!
NO SHOOTING THROUGH CONNECTORS! "

I've searched and searched, both here and on other forums, as well as on all the various nail gun manufacturers sites, and I can't find any reference to this "hole locating tool'.

Has anyone heard of this gizmo, or know where I can learn about/purchase one?

[Ralph Steffey]

There are a couple of companys that make a framing gun just for this job. It is a special gun where the end of the nail sticks out of the end of the gun about 1/4 inch so you stick the nail in the hole and shoot I use this all the time here in Florida cause we over strap everything but at 400 dollars plus 60 dollars a box I am not shure you want to do this for just one job. Try hitachi and also senco for mfg's of these tools.

[tod evans]

senco has the gun you`re looking for but you`ll need to go to a real dealer not the borg. i`d suggest using it for your job then putting it on fleabay, you should be able to "use" the gun for a fraction of rental price that way. .02 tod

[Ted Jay]

they are called pneumatic positive placement nail guns.

heres a link that might be helpful:
http://www.asktooltalk.com/home/reviews/pneumatic/paslode5225.htm

Good luck and be careful:)

look in the upper right hand corner on the page above for gun type and price.

[Marty Walsh]

Ralph/Tod,

Thanks, I'm looking at the HN250 right now. I didn't realize it was a seperate gun! I was hoping it was just an accesory for an existing gun, sort of like a no-mar tip.

I'll keep looking, but I may wind up buying one and selling it when I'm done. (Good advice Tod!)

- Marty -

[Ted Jay]

Ralph/Tod,

Thanks, I'm looking at the HN250 right now. I didn't realize it was a seperate gun! I was hoping it was just an accesory for an existing gun, sort of like a no-mar tip.

I'll keep looking, but I may wind up buying one and selling it when I'm done. (Good advice Tod!)

- Marty -
here's another at amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B69P40/qid=1143638671/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-2550108-0175105?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=hi&v=glance&n=228013

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I never use hangars on decks. For your shop you shouldn't have any trouble but on decks they trap moisture and the toenailing involved in hanging the joist actually weakens the attaching area of the wood.

Can't well you how many joists I have found rotted due to the use of those things. Each deck I demo that is less than 10 years old has them and each one has rotted joist ends. So instead of making the attachment stronger they actually weaken them.

I also never toenail joists or rafters even in covered structures. I know for a fact that my way is stronger because I have tested both methods in my shop. I do this to demonstrate both ways to new carpenters that work for me. I use a long bit in the screwgun [square drive] and drive 3" deck screws into areas that would have been toenailed at 90* to the adjoining surface.

Yeah it takes more time to build this way, but I sleep better. :D

[Marty Walsh]

here's another at amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B69P40/qid=1143638671/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-2550108-0175105?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=hi&v=glance&n=228013

Ted,

I was searching there as you posted this. How convenient, since I'm loading my cart on Amazon with the Paslode cordless nailer anyway. Thanks.

- Marty -

[Ted Jay]

Ted,

I was searching there as you posted this. How convenient, since I'm loading my cart on Amazon with the Paslode cordless nailer anyway. Thanks.

- Marty -

Marty,
What spacing are you using on your piers if this is to be your shop floor?

[Marty Walsh]

I never use hangars on decks. For your shop you shouldn't have any trouble but on decks they trap moisture and the toenailing involved in hanging the joist actually weakens the attaching area of the wood.

Can't well you how many joists I have found rotted due to the use of those things. Each deck I demo that is less than 10 years old has them and each one has rotted joist ends. So instead of making the attachment stronger they actually weaken them.

I also never toenail joists or rafters even in covered structures. I know for a fact that my way is stronger because I have tested both methods in my shop. I do this to demonstrate both ways to new carpenters that work for me. I use a long bit in the screwgun [square drive] and drive 3" deck screws into areas that would have been toenailed at 90* to the adjoining surface.

Yeah it takes more time to build this way, but I sleep better. :D

Kelly,

I could have used this discussion before I started on the deck I just finished, especially since there were A LOT of nails involved in the hangers on 2x12's! Oh well, live and learn. Hopefully I won't have problems with the new deck...:(

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,
What spacing are you using on your piers if this is to be your shop floor?

Ted,

I'm planning to start a new thread with those details, just to follow up on all the suggestions I've gotten already.

But since you asked, the piers will be roughly ten foot apart. The entire structure has been designed by an engineer (following advice I recieved earlier). It will have an engineered floor using LVL's and I-beams, designed to carry a 150lb/ft load as opposed to the normal 40lb/ft load of a home, and trusses for the roof.

I have a few more details to work out today/tomorrow and then I'll start the new thread. I'm interested to see everyone's opinion...

[Kevin Herber]

What thickness material are you planning for the subfloor? I re-subflooreded my second floor exercise room and used 1 1/8 t&g. It is solid as a rock. A lot more solid than the 3/4. Those sheets were darn heavy, almost 120 pounds each, but the difference was remarkable.

Good luck!!

[Marty Walsh]

What thickness material are you planning for the subfloor? I re-subflooreded my second floor exercise room and used 1 1/8 t&g. It is solid as a rock. A lot more solid than the 3/4. Those sheets were darn heavy, almost 120 pounds each, but the difference was remarkable.

Good luck!!

Kevin,

Still making a final decision, but leaning towards 3/4" T&G followed by 1/2" OSB which would be replacable. I'll look into the thicker stuff. Thanks for the heads up.

- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, check out local sawmills, being raised on piers i`d look at 4/4 rough oak right out of the mill for a subfloor, screwed down tight then advantek over it after it dried for a couple months. this would give you a really "equipment friendly" subfloor..it should be stiff enough to support most anything you`ll drag home.....02 tod

[Charlie Plesums]

I haven't done it, but I have heard of using palm nailers to install hangers... one of those gizmos that holds a nail magnetically, and when pushed into place (with your palm), uses air to hammer it in. Certainly a lot slower than a special gun, but a LOT cheaper. Has anyone tried this approach?

[Joe Chritz]

Two words ... Palm nailer.

When I built my house I used 2x8 joist hangers on the top of every basement wall stud (its a wood foundation). 216 foot of wall 16" on center is a lot of studs and about 10 pounds of joist hanger nails.

Not as fast as a strip nailer but you can buy one for about 85 bucks and it is plenty fast.

This is very similar to the one I use.

http://www.senco.com/con_rem/ViewTool.aspx?toolid=101

Joe

[Marty Walsh]

marty, check out local sawmills, being raised on piers i`d look at 4/4 rough oak right out of the mill for a subfloor, screwed down tight then advantek over it after it dried for a couple months. this would give you a really "equipment friendly" subfloor..it should be stiff enough to support most anything you`ll drag home.....02 tod

Tod,

You beat me to it! That's one of the final decisions I'm trying to make before I create my new shop thread. There are plenty of local sawyers around here and they offer quite a few things I'm considering...oak, hickory, etc.

But, what's advantek?

- Marty -

[Steve Clardy]

I also suggest a palm nailer. Everyone I know of uses one for hangars.

[Lee DeRaud]

I also suggest a palm nailer. Everyone I know of uses one for hangars.Thanks, that answers a long-standing question of mine. I keep seeing these things in catalogs, but couldn't for the life of me figure out what you'd use one for.:p

[tod evans]

Tod,

You beat me to it! That's one of the final decisions I'm trying to make before I create my new shop thread. There are plenty of local sawyers around here and they offer quite a few things I'm considering...oak, hickory, etc.

But, what's advantek?

- Marty -
advantek is a waterproof sheeting made by huber, actually spelled "advantech" sorry! this is good stuff for underlayment, i`ve personally seen it weather 120 days of rain/snow/heat ect. and not one raised seam and no delamination. comes in 3/4 4x8 t&g don`t accept the clones! most yards stock it so you should have no trouble finding it and cost wise it shouldn`t be over 20% higher than the clones.....02 tod

[Larry Turner]

I have used the palm nailer and am using one now on an extension to my shop. It is slower but oh does it save the arm and elbow.

[Marty Walsh]

advantek is a waterproof sheeting made by huber, actually spelled "advantech" sorry! this is good stuff for underlayment, i`ve personally seen it weather 120 days of rain/snow/heat ect. and not one raised seam and no delamination. comes in 3/4 4x8 t&g don`t accept the clones! most yards stock it so you should have no trouble finding it and cost wise it shouldn`t be over 20% higher than the clones.....02 tod

Tod,

Found it http://www.huberwood.com/products/dsp_products.cfm?doc_id=23

Thanks again!
- Marty -

[Herb Kelley]

I use my Senco palm nailer for joist hangers and driving nails in tight places where there is not enough room to swing a hammer and a framing nailer will not fit. Have driven up to 16 penny nails with it. More flexibilty, less costly than dedicated joist nailer but not as fast.

[Andy Hoyt]

I've used palm nailers. They're noisy, vibrate like crazy and kinda slow. Not too effective on the bigger stuff either. We trashed it and went back to a Mark One Mod 0 hammer.

Marty - I'm no fan of hangars either. Is is too late to reconfigure the floor framing so that the joists rest on top of girders and plates? I seem to recall that your DC ducting was going down below and the reconfigured floor would also allow for better positioning of ducts and more headroom below the ducts where they pass the girder.

[tod evans]

pressure blocks are an option too.......02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

I've used palm nailers. They're noisy, vibrate like crazy and kinda slow. Not too effective on the bigger stuff either. We trashed it and went back to a Mark One Mod 0 hammer.

Marty - I'm no fan of hangars either. Is is too late to reconfigure the floor framing so that the joists rest on top of girders and plates? I seem to recall that your DC ducting was going down below and the reconfigured floor would also allow for better positioning of ducts and more headroom below the ducts where they pass the girder.

Andy,

The hangers were spec'ed by the engineer that designed the floor. He said I "might" be able to have the joists straddle the beams, but he'd have to recheck his calculations. I sort of ruled that out when I began to think of my trying to handle 40' long sections of I-beams! :eek:

The way he has things laid out, the longest I-beam sections I'll have to handle will be 14', which I'm sure I can man-handle into the hangers.

It's not too late to change things, but I'm not certain there's a reason to. What is your aversion to hangers based on? Kelly indicated that he didn't like them for decks since they might have a tendancy to collect moisture. Since these will be boxed up under the floor system of the shop, I don't suspect that would be a problem.



<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 332094" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>tod evans</TD><TD class=alt2>pressure blocks are an option too.......02 tod</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Tod, Here I go again....what are 'pressure blocks'? :confused:

I think I might need to work fast to document all the details of the shop so I can start my other thread before this thread veers too far off topic.

- Marty -

[Andy Hoyt]

Marty my aversion to hangars is based on the fact that their purpose is to simplify and speed up an installation rather than improve the structure. Having a joist hang off the side of a girder (with no pointload and held up by a handfull of short stubby nails) just cannot be stronger than having the entire joint sitting on top of a girder (where you'll have four or more inches of point load and gravity working to your advantage).

Main girders could be easily be 14' foot solid timbers connected end to end with a post supporting the join. And a site built girder of 2x glued and nailed with alternating joins alongthe length of the beam with similar supporting posts is just as doable.

If, say, your joists will span 11 feet, just buy 12' joist stock, rest atop the girders with opposers lapping and nailed to one another, toenail to girder, add bridging, done.

Of course, I'm assuming you're using real wood as opposed to some variant of engineered lumber.

[Tim Clark]

Have you concidered a palm nailer? It's air operated and drives a well placed well. They're specifically designed for nailing hangers.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=90193

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=41164

You can rent them to avoid buying a onetime use tool.

[Marty Walsh]

Marty my aversion to hangars is based on the fact that their purpose is to simplify and speed up an installation rather than improve the structure. Having a joist hang off the side of a girder (with no pointload and held up by a handfull of short stubby nails) just cannot be stronger than having the entire joint sitting on top of a girder (where you'll have four or more inches of point load and gravity working to your advantage).

Main girders could be easily be 14' foot solid timbers connected end to end with a post supporting the join. And a site built girder of 2x glued and nailed with alternating joins alongthe length of the beam with similar supporting posts is just as doable.

If, say, your joists will span 11 feet, just buy 12' joist stock, rest atop the girders with opposers lapping and nailed to one another, toenail to girder, add bridging, done.

Of course, I'm assuming you're using real wood as opposed to some variant of engineered lumber.

Andy,

The entire floor 'system' is engineered lumber. The beams are double LVL's, and the joists are 16" deep I-joists. I'm going this route since the 'system' is certified to carry a 150lb/sqft load. The engineer I'm working with said it would take about twice the regular 2x lumber to accomplish the same load capacity...more joists with narrower span, larger and more beams, etc.

Still working on details to get my new thread started...
- Marty -

[Andy Hoyt]

I disagree with your engineer, but defer to his engineering degree.

But that said, I wonder if he used that degree on your project or software provided by the engineered lumber lobby.

[tod evans]

Andy,
Tod, Here I go again....what are 'pressure blocks'? :confused:
- Marty -

marty, i`m probably using local terms? but that`s what i know. pressure blocks are 14 1/2" pieces of joist material (2x10, 2x12) that are nailed flat into the rim joist then the joist itself is nailed into the pressure block and through the rim, then the next pressure block is installed. this is how i was taught to frame a floor before joist hangers where available in the sticks, and i`m sure some engineering facility has tested this technique? it feels far stronger to me than hangers.....02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

I disagree with your engineer, but defer to his engineering degree.

But that said, I wonder if he used that degree on your project or software provided by the engineered lumber lobby.

Andy,

You could very well be correct, especially since I'm in the middle of SYP country! I see more pine lumber trucks than passenger vehicles on the road during the day around here.

Oh the decisions...:( :confused: :(
- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, my opinion on engineered lumber is that it hasn`t been on the market long enough to see if it`ll stand the test of time. syp on the otherhand has been abused for centuries in all types of enviornments. don`t cut any checks `till you feel completely comfortable with what you`re doing......02 tod

[Dan Oelke]

I tend to agree with Tod - I like what you can do with engineered lumber, but I am not sure if I trust it. I like floor trusses a lot too for the ability to run wires/pipes, but will it be still good in 100 years? I think so, but am not sure.

I know that fire fighters sure don't like the metal plate trusses, and I believe they like the engineered lumber even less. In a fire they tend to fail quicker than regular lumber and 16d nails.